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Avlonnic

Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

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It appears that one thread was not enough to clarify what exactly MMD did.

 

What does that tell us?

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That there is no consensus and we can keep debating this to infinity?

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That there is no consensus and we can keep debating this to infinity?

 

The things are not as simple and clear-cut as some people would have it.

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     On one finger, we have those who believe that Mirri Maz Duur maliciously and with malice aforethought did perpetrate black magic bait-and-switch upon Dany, resulting in the death of baby Rhaego and the permanent destruction of Drogo’s mind.  On the next finger, we have those who believe that Mirri practiced sound medical care to the best of her ability under the circumstances.  The poor outcomes were the result of bad decisions by Drogo, Dany, and the khalazar.  On another finger, we have those who believe Mirri practiced sound medical care in the beginning of Drogo’s treatment but willfully orchestrated death and destruction via bloodmagic in the second phase of critical care treatment.

 

     I do not have enough fingers for all of the variations in opinions.  However, the discussions on this thread have led to some interesting ideas, including the suggestion that the spirit of Rhaego went into the dragon's eggs (and that the spirit of the horse went into Drogo?)  I've added some quotes for discussion, spoilered for length.

 

spoiled for length [spoiler]

Lady Blizzardborn, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:16 PM, said:

You know, between you and butterbumps, I've had a thought...

 

Dead for years.  The eggs were said to be petrified.  So they had been dead for years.  Rhaego's life force switched with theirs. That's they only way a baby who's only been cooking (so to speak) for 8-9 months could have been dead for "years."  That also means that Rhaego is the one who woke dragons from stone--the prince that was promised, and he was of Aerys and Rhaella's line.  If the dragons really are Lightbringer, as has been suggested, then that makes Rhaego also Azor Ahai Reborn, except not reborn.  The prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World is about uniting the world. What the heck else is a hero who just saved the entire planet going to do but be hailed by all as their rightful leader?

 

Rhaego was TDtwP, AAR, and TSwMtW.  But instead of his life being what saves and unites everyone, it's his death.  And that works really well because...say it with me...only death can pay for life.

 

And that could be exactly why GRRM has said we should pay a lot less attention to the prophecies (trying to pin them down to this or that character) and more to Old Nan's stories.  It also fits perfectly with there not being one character who fights to save the day and rallies everybody.  The savior of humanity in this story was a baby who ended up never being born.  If this turns out to be the case then GRRM is an even bigger genius than I already thought he was.

 

It would also mean that a bit of Rhaego is in each of the dragons.  Drogon and Rhaegal got the fierceness, Viserion the sweetness, Drogon the physical dominance, Rhaegal the cunning and jealousy, Viserion the affection and gentleness (well as much as any dragon could be gentle).  Dany is the mother of dragons because the dragons are her son split in three.  Or maybe I just need more sleep.

[/spoiler]

 

LmL spoiled for length [spoiler]

LmL, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:25 PM, said:

Don't know if that's correct or not but I like it!!

Symbolically, this works. I have been interpreting Rhaego as another manifestation (symbolically) of Lightbringer. Rhaego and the dragons are both Danys children, and both (like Jon) play the role of Lightbringer, child of sun and moon.

But your take here is really interesting, a brain-stretching idea. Very nice.

[/spoiler]

 

 Tucu spoiled for length [spoiler]

Tucu, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:27 PM, said:

A (not so small) variation: Dany is still Azor Ahai and Rhaego is her Nissa Nissa. Rhaego was sacrificed, his essence transferred to the eggs to give Dany her dragons.

[/spoiler]

 

 bent branch spoiled for length [spoiler]

bent branch, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:37 PM, said:

 

I am sort of there with you. However, it is a life for a life so I think Rhaego's life reanimated only one of the eggs. In the HotU Dany sees a vision of a dragon bursting from Mirri's forehead, so I think her life force reanimated one of the eggs and Drogo the third.

 

I think Drogo reanimated the black egg (Drogon). I go back and forth about which of the other two eggs Mirri reanimated. When Quaithe gives her warning about the mummer's dragon, I think it is a warning about an actual dragon. When Dany first sees Tyrion he is a mummer. Not just sort of a mummer but an actual mummer. Therefore, whichever dragon Tyrion ends up with is the dragon I think Quaithe is warning Dany about.

 

I think Mirri's animus will turn that dragon against Dany.

[/spoiler]

 

 sweetsunray spoiled for length [spoiler]

sweetsunray, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:41 PM, said:

 

Viserion is the heart dragon I believe. Rhaegal seems to be the smart one.

 

 sweetsunray spoiled for length [spoiler]

sweetsunray, on 04 Sept 2015 - 2:57 PM, said:

 

I think Mirri has that "My god has avenged me" attitude imo. I find her gloating rather biblical (old testament biblical).

[/spoiler]

 

 Lady Barbrey spoiled for length [spoiler]

Lady Barbrey, on 04 Sept 2015 - 4:01 PM, said:

Good analysis. I have always thought it was Rhaego split in three in the dragons. I thought everyone did! So they were three aspects of the Stallion Who Mounts the World. The three 'heads of the dragon' not Dany but Rhaego. But I've seen Dany as the PtwP not the dragons - I saw them more as the Lightbringers. She brings them into the world by killing her son the 'blood of her blood' Nissa Nissa, same-same. It wouldnt work this tine around to kill a husband or wife because they wouldnt be Targs. Her own son was needed.

[/spoiler]

 

     These ideas are intriguing.  But, even today's best cardiac transplant units have unguaranteed outcomes - and that is without a couple of people bursting into the operating theater, contaminating everything and distracting the physician with a critical care situation.  If Mirri intended to return Drogo to an ideal condition, she made clear the conditions required for a chance - and those conditions were disrupted by the intrusion of Jorah and a bleeding Dany.  We also know that the ritual was intended to (a) heal a human body and to (b) 'transplant' spirits.  Spirits were flying around in the tent; people were dying; blood was everywhere, even on the walls.

     In rereading Dany's fever dream during her miscarriage, we witness quite a transformative experience.  In fact, it seems no one in that tent escaped unchanged.  Mid-ritual, the tent contained at a minimum: Mirri, Drogo, Dany, Rhaego, the dragon's eggs, and, theoretically, the spirit of Drogo's great stallion.  Where might those spirits have gone or mingled or whatever?  Previous discussions (above) suggested the horse went into Drogo and Rhaego's spirit went into the three eggs.  Another poster posited that the eggs received spirits from Drogo, Rhaego, and the horse.  Yet another suggested the eggs received additional spirits during burning of the bodies, resulting in one of the eggs receiving Mirri's spirit (as symbolized as a dragon bursting from her forehead.)  Someone pointed out that Rhaego's spirit actually represented Targaryen blood referencing Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany (all blood of the dragon.) 

 

     Let's look at who was represented in Dany's fever dream during the ritual/miscarriage (in addition to the many mentions of dragons and fire):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

 

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

 

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"  Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"  Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks. The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …" She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

 

"… want to wake the dragon …" Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

"… wake the dragon …" The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     Dany sees Drogo, her son (Rhaego), Rhaegar, Viserys, Ser Jorah, the dragon's eggs, and ghosts, possibly from ancient 'dragons'.  Then we can add Mirri and the stallion's spirit.  Who is changed after the derailed ritual? 

  • Drogo's stallion - the horse is dead.  We are uncertain where his spirit resides because this was a headstrong stallion that required three grown men to muscle him into place in the tent. 
  • Rhaego - we are told the child was dead when it was pulled from the womb.  Jorah did not see the body.  However, Mirri's description is surprisingly consistent with other malformed Targaryen babies, none of whom survived.  The only deviation is the detail of 'long-dead with graveworms'.  Otherwise, this is the same description given to Targ babies, including 3 born to Maegor I's wives and 2 to Daemon Targaryen's wives.
  • Drogo - his body is healed except he is blind. His spirit appears missing.  Instead, he behaves more like a very docile horse - or sheep. Also, the only one described as blind in the tent was Rhaego - he had no eyes.
  • Dany -  Her body is healed, although sore.  But she is strong.  On her first day up and about, she does the work of several people - pretty shocking for someone coming from a serious, lengthy unconsciousness.  Her body seems stronger than Drogo's (strength of the beast? or strength from the dragon?)  Then, she becomes harsher and more imperious.  For example, "I am tired of the maegi's braying," Dany told Jhogo...and put Mirri to the whip.  Dany asserts forcefully that she is the KHALeesi (a la Drogo) as well as Queen (a la Viserys) and the Dragon (a la Rhaegar per Jorah). 
  • Mirri - She speaks more sharply than before, almost cruelly.  She no longer veils her contempt for the Dothraki nor her exasperation with 'the child', Dany.  She talks about the Dothraki coupling like beasts instead of men - very similar to the way Drogo viewed the lamb people as sheep - or even the way Viserys viewed the Dothraki.
  • The eggs - They become nearly irresistable to Dany. 
  • Jorah - Dany notes his hollow eyes, his grey face, his limp, and comments that he has been touched by the shadows in the tent.  He becomes ghost-like in her vision.  I am entirely certain how this will play out but it could help to explain Jorah's heartfelt love and devotion to Dany as well as the fact he felt cocky enough to kiss his Queen/Khaleesi, out of nowhere.  Was he influenced by a touch of Drogo's spirit or Rhaego's? 

 

Of course, the burning ceremony changes everything again.

  • Mirri is dead - but a dragon appears to be released from her forehead.
  • Drogo is dead - but his spirit and that of the horse are released into the cosmos.
  • Drogon is alive.
  • Viserion is alive.
  • Rhaegal is alive.
  • Dany is alive.  She is the khaleesi, the queen, and the mother/daughter/wife of dragons.
  • Jorah is alive, on bended knee, and swearing his devotion. Will his experiences in the tent of shadows prepare him to wield the sword Dany promised him in GOT, Dany X?  "...I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel."

 

Perhaps the dragon personalities and destinies may be shaped by these spirit influences or by their placement on Drogo's funeral pyre or by something else altogether.  The discussions have been fun (see some of them under the spoiler tags above.)

  • Drogon - influenced by his resemblance to Balerion, his egg's placement near the heart, or by Drogo's dominant spirit?
  • Rhaegal - influenced his egg's placement near the brain or by Rhaegar's intellectual spirit?
  • Viserion - influenced by his egg's placement near the genitals or by Viserys' spirit?

 

Just speculation.  I have no clue who is Azor Ahai, the PTWP, TSTMTW, Lightbringer, Nissa Nissa, or Jerry Garcia.

 

Cheers.  

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Thanks, because I was just trying to post a reply to some of the last comments, when it got locked.

 

I think the comment about the possible placenta rupture might be right on the money.

 

I also agree with the comment that Mirri had some idea what the cost might be, because of her experience in Ashai. But instead of targeting Rhaego at all, I think her actions in sending Dany outside of the tent were intended to prevent Rhaego from being targeted. Mirri consented to perform the ritual in exchange for her freedom. So, at this point she had personal motive to heal Drogo as well as keep Dany and her child outside of the danger zone.

 

It is clear that she set up some perimeter regarding the magic she conjured. This is usually how rituals are done - within a protective perimeter. The tent was the perimeter, and Mirri ordered Dany outside of that perimeter. This is confirmed with the fact that while Dany could see shadows dancing in the tent from without, Rhaego was not blasted out of existence until she was inside. This means that the dancing shadows of the dead had no power over what happened beyond the tent's perimeter. What happened there was not because of Mirri or the dead spirits, but Dothraki aggression. It also means that those who died outside of the tent could not in any way contribute to the magic with their lifeforce.

 

Then Jorah, Dany and unborn Rhaego enter the tent, the danger zone, where the dead dance and rule. The magic has 3 lifeforces to choose from. Middle aged wounded Jorah, young Dany in physical peril and an unborn baby Rhaego who is most likely already doomed by then, because of the placenta rupture. If we consider lifeforce as the energy of lifetime potential (without fate, accidents, war, illness, etc interfering), Jorah has the least years left, then Dany and finally Rhaego has 60-90 years of lifeforce potential. On top of that those 60-90 lifeforce years are about to get wasted. Rhaego can die just like the bloodriders outside of the tent, and the 60-90 years are gone without use. So, the dead spirits targeted Rhaego for his lifeforce once all three were inside, and this potential was used to heal Drogo's body. And the blast vision as well as Mirri's words that Rhaego was dead for years already suggest that basically his otherwise future lifeyears were taken from. Instead of say living 60 years after birth, he was dead for 60 years before birth.

 

I do not think there is evidence that Mirri herself was able to select whose lifeforce would be used, other than decide who is inside the tent or not. But ultimately it would be the shadows/the dead who pick which life is appropriate for the magic. And if they have a choice they'd go for the one with the longest lifeforce potential ahead of him or her, like a moth to a flame. It's even possible that Rhaego's lifeforce had the surplus needed to turn the dragon eggs with lifeforce... all that was needed afterwards was the heat to hatch them. 

 

Someone made the comment in the other thread that Mirri was not under life threat from the Dothraki once she gets vitriolic to Dany. Indeed, it were not the Dothraki who were going to kill her. But initially Mirri informs Dany about what happened, yet compassionate, as Dany comes to. No, she does not cushion the state Rhaego was born into, but it is rather matter of fact. His state at birth cannot be really cushioned. And she is otherwise docile and complying to Dany's wishes. But as she does this Dany starts to criticise her. Dany's tone is the first to turn to that of being cheated, even though she knew death would be the price (before Mirri slaughtered the horse) and even believed she might sacrifice her own life for Drogo, even though Mirri informed her that Drogo's death would be cleaner. She becomes harsher, bitter and dismissive fast. And it is during this change of attitude that Mirri knows her life is forfeit, not by Dothraki hands, but Dany's hands. And that is the moment Mirri becomes harsher, telling her that hell will freeze over before Drogo will be the old Drogo again. At that point Dany forgets all about Jorah being responsible for carrying her inside the tent, forgets all about her own choices, and accuses Mirri of having done it on purpose. And yes, it was useless at this point for Mirri to remind Dany of the fact she ordered Dany out of the tent, that it were the Dothraki who attacked her and abandoned her, that it was Jorah who carried her inside, and yet fate brought her inside and have the spirit of the dead blast Rhaego's lifeforce away. Dany knew all this, and despite of it, still accused Mirri of being this maegi with more magical control over other people than a skinchanger has. And people believe all Mirri needed to do at this point was say, "No, my silver lady, I didn't do it, because yadayadayada..." No, Dany's mind was already made up.

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It is clear that she set up some perimeter regarding the magic she conjured. This is usually how rituals are done - within a protective perimeter. The tent was the perimeter, and Mirri ordered Dany outside of that perimeter. 

 

A word of advice: When you summon demons, make sure to contain them in a circle and allow no one to cross the circle.

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A word of advice: When you summon demons, make sure to contain them in a circle and allow no one to cross the circle.

 

Usually a circle of salt ;)

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Thanks, because I was just trying to post a reply to some of the last comments, when it got locked.

 

I think the comment about the possible placenta rupture might be right on the money.

 

I also agree with the comment that Mirri had some idea what the cost might be, because of her experience in Ashai. But instead of targeting Rhaego at all, I think her actions in sending Dany outside of the tent were intended to prevent Rhaego from being targeted. Mirri consented to perform the ritual in exchange for her freedom. So, at this point she had personal motive to heal Drogo as well as keep Dany and her child outside of the danger zone.

 

It is clear that she set up some perimeter regarding the magic she conjured. This is usually how rituals are done - within a protective perimeter. The tent was the perimeter, and Mirri ordered Dany outside of that perimeter. This is confirmed with the fact that while Dany could see shadows dancing in the tent from without, Rhaego was not blasted out of existence until she was inside. This means that the dancing shadows of the dead had no power over what happened beyond the tent's perimeter. What happened there was not because of Mirri or the dead spirits, but Dothraki aggression. It also means that those who died outside of the tent could not in any way contribute to the magic with their lifeforce.

 

Then Jorah, Dany and unborn Rhaego enter the tent, the danger zone, where the dead dance and rule. The magic has 3 lifeforces to choose from. Middle aged wounded Jorah, young Dany in physical peril and an unborn baby Rhaego who is most likely already doomed by then, because of the placenta rupture. If we consider lifeforce as the energy of lifetime potential (without fate, accidents, war, illness, etc interfering), Jorah has the least years left, then Dany and finally Rhaego has 60-90 years of lifeforce potential. On top of that those 60-90 lifeforce years are about to get wasted. Rhaego can die just like the bloodriders outside of the tent, and the 60-90 years are gone without use. So, the dead spirits targeted Rhaego for his lifeforce once all three were inside, and this potential was used to heal Drogo's body. And the blast vision as well as Mirri's words that Rhaego was dead for years already suggest that basically his otherwise future lifeyears were taken from. Instead of say living 60 years after birth, he was dead for 60 years before birth.

 

I do not think there is evidence that Mirri herself was able to select whose lifeforce would be used, other than decide who is inside the tent or not. But ultimately it would be the shadows/the dead who pick which life is appropriate for the magic. And if they have a choice they'd go for the one with the longest lifeforce potential ahead of him or her, like a moth to a flame. It's even possible that Rhaego's lifeforce had the surplus needed to turn the dragon eggs with lifeforce... all that was needed afterwards was the heat to hatch them. 

 

Someone made the comment in the other thread that Mirri was not under life threat from the Dothraki once she gets vitriolic to Dany. Indeed, it were not the Dothraki who were going to kill her. But initially Mirri informs Dany about what happened, yet compassionate, as Dany comes to. No, she does not cushion the state Rhaego was born into, but it is rather matter of fact. His state at birth cannot be really cushioned. And she is otherwise docile and complying to Dany's wishes. But as she does this Dany starts to criticise her. Dany's tone is the first to turn to that of being cheated, even though she knew death would be the price (before Mirri slaughtered the horse) and even believed she might sacrifice her own life for Drogo, even though Mirri informed her that Drogo's death would be cleaner. She becomes harsher, bitter and dismissive fast. And it is during this change of attitude that Mirri knows her life is forfeit, not by Dothraki hands, but Dany's hands. And that is the moment Mirri becomes harsher, telling her that hell will freeze over before Drogo will be the old Drogo again. At that point Dany forgets all about Jorah being responsible for carrying her inside the tent, forgets all about her own choices, and accuses Mirri of having done it on purpose. And yes, it was useless at this point for Mirri to remind Dany of the fact she ordered Dany out of the tent, that it were the Dothraki who attacked her and abandoned her, that it was Jorah who carried her inside, and yet fate brought her inside and have the spirit of the dead blast Rhaego's lifeforce away. Dany knew all this, and despite of it, still accused Mirri of being this maegi with more magical control over other people than a skinchanger has. And people believe all Mirri needed to do at this point was say, "No, my silver lady, I didn't do it, because yadayadayada..." No, Dany's mind was already made up.

 

Very nice.  As I said, she likely saved Dany's life but she would never have gotten credit for it. 

 

 

 

A word of advice: When you summon demons, make sure to contain them in a circle and allow no one to cross the circle.

 

Great life tip!

 

 

Usually a circle of salt ;)

 

Salt is really important, isn't it?  It preserves food for travel or winter.  It helps the favor of cooking.  It contains demons in a circle.  And it is a critical part of offering guest right (salt and bread).  Salt - don't leave home without it, y'all!

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I also agree with the comment that Mirri had some idea what the cost might be, because of her experience in Ashai. But instead of targeting Rhaego at all, I think her actions in sending Dany outside of the tent were intended to prevent Rhaego from being targeted. Mirri consented to perform the ritual in exchange for her freedom. So, at this point she had personal motive to heal Drogo as well as keep Dany and her child outside of the danger zone.


disagree. she makes it very clear that she views her life as essentially meaningless at this point. her town destroyed, etc.

her entire speech to Dany is about how you see what life is worth when all the rest is taken away?

her last act of meaning in life is to stop The Stalion Who amounts the world from doing the exact same thing to villages all around the continent as he conquers.

she was very happy to kill Rheago.

in my mind that leads to a more likely thought there was a premeditation.

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disagree. she makes it very clear that she views her life as essentially meaningless at this point. her town destroyed, etc.

her entire speech to Dany is about how you see what life is worth when all the rest is taken away?

her last act of meaning in life is to stop The Stalion Who amounts the world from doing the exact same thing to villages all around the continent as he conquers.

she was very happy to kill Rheago.

in my mind that leads to a more likely thought there was a premeditation.

 

I agree. I don't like how Mirri, an intelligent, well-educated, mature woman is turned into a hapless victim in order to justify a belief that Dany is this evil queen right from the beginning. Dany saved Mirri because she was not ruthless enough to ignore the suffering she was seeing. Most of the women Dany saved just ignored her, but Mirri saw an opportunity. It should be noted that Mirri did not make her offer of help until she heard that Dany was carrying Rhaego. I think Mirri made her offer to heal Drogo so that she would have a chance to be near Dany when Rhaego was born, so that she could kill him. As has been pointed out, at the time Mirri made her declaration to Dany she was safe. There was no one there who was going to harm her. Mirri wanted Dany to know what she had done. She may have even thought Dany was not capable of killing her. Indeed, Right up through ADWD, Dany hesitates to use the level of ruthlessness she'll need to display in order to make actual changes.

 

Anyway, there is always so much talk on this forum about women and agency that it is ironic that when a woman not only uses her agency, but also owns it, there are those who quite happily deny it to her. And, as I've said before, I don't blame Mirri for her actions. This is not a betrayal since Drogo, Dany, etc. are her enemies. But at the same time, Dany is not evil for her response to this attack either. Sometimes fate doesn't have an easy answer.

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disagree. she makes it very clear that she views her life as essentially meaningless at this point. her town destroyed, etc.

her entire speech to Dany is about how you see what life is worth when all the rest is taken away?

her last act of meaning in life is to stop The Stalion Who amounts the world from doing the exact same thing to villages all around the continent as he conquers.

she was very happy to kill Rheago.

in my mind that leads to a more likely thought there was a premeditation.

 

A lot happened in between starting the ritual and the aftermath.

 

That she killed Rhaego or even tried to is negated by all the events preceding the event. She ordered Dany to go outside. Labour did not start after Qotho shoved her to the ground, Dothraki started to pelt her with stones and she was in huge emotional distress. Dothraki childbirth women refused to help her, calling her cursed, and eventually her handmaidens advized Jorah to bring her to Mirri, and he carried her in. Premeditation would mean that Mirri was able to mind control Drogo's bloodriders, Dothraki people, Dothraki healers, her handmaidens and Jorah. If she is that powerful to control all of the minds of the people outside of the tent, then how the hell did she not use that mind control power to save her village, her temple, her people and herself?

 

Mirri's attitude changed. She never admitted to "liking to kill Rhaego". She admitted to being glad he was dead. There is a difference between the two.

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I will repost my analysis, again, from the first thread

 

There's no denying that Mirri performed a blood magic ritual. But there is no evidence that she targeted Dany's child. There were dead spirits in the tent. Once Dany was carried inside, the dead spirits claimed Rhaego for the sacrifice. It seems to me that once the spirits are summoned they act like a vortex. 
 
The Dothraki were hostile to any type of non-Dothraki healing. I get the impression they'd even call a maester a maegi. And it's little surprise Drogo's bloodriders would become violent for anyone to use magic on their Khal. Even the whole violent episode outside the tent does not fall outside what was to be expected as a reaction. It surprised Dany they started to stone her for it... but the way they were hostile from the start it isn't. Still, even without magic violence and agression has an almost "magical" ability to jump from one to the other in real life. It's not magical in real life of course, but it can spread like wildfire in the right conditions, pulling everyone in, indeed like a vortex (just have to point to the mob in KL). The scene is ambiguous enough to suggest that perhaps the spirits in the tent egged the "air" on for mob violence.
 
And it is that Mirri knew imo. She knew that the blood ritual and spirits would demand more blood. She did not know which blood, but there would be more. This was the reason that Mirri explictly ordered Dany out beforehand and telling her not to enter once the singing started for no reason. That she did this should be evidence enough that she had no intention of killing Rhaego. It defies all logic for Mirri to order her out if she intended to abort Rhaego. If she wanted to con Dany for that, she would have conned her into staying. Mirri was clear enough about it that Dany indeed tried to tell Jorah not to carry her in.
 
I don't think Rhaego was even targeted by the spirits, not until she fell and the fall and anxiety induced labour. On top of that the Dothraki healers refused to help her. Those mud smearing Dothraki healers refused to help her, because they called her cursed. I doubt that was caused by Mirri or the dead spirits in the tent.
 
From the get go, the whole plot shows free will after free will by others that led to Dany ending up in the tent.
 

  • Drogo drinking milk of the poppy which would have tarried the healing process (and there's for Drogo not being that "macho" about pain after all). This is Drogo's decision.
  • Then the poultice did what Mirri had told him beforehand - it would itch and burn. He ripped it off and had bacteria filled mud packed on it, because it feels more soothing. This is Drogo's decision and free will, and it the reason why developed gangrene (near the heart, no less)
  • Dany asks Mirri whether she doesn't know some magical way to save his life, and despite the contrary advice against it, she orders Mirri to do it. This is Dany's decision.
  • Mirri warns her not to enter the tent, not for any reason. It's Jorah who decides to carry her in. This is Jorah's decision.
  • The bloodriders behave violent to Dany, shove her. These are the bloodriders' decisions. Qotho said he would kill her.
  • The Dothraki start to pelt Dany with stones. These are the Dothrakis' decisions.
  • Dany's labor begins and the birthing women refuse to help her.  They say she's cursed. These are the Dothraki healers' decisions.
  • Irri and Doreah urge Jorah to carry her to the maegi. And Jorah carries her in.

 
Nowhere is it ever Mirri's decision. Meanwhile

  • Mirri performs all the necessary medical steps: she removes the arrow, disinfects the wound with boiling alcohol, she puts a pale green paste on the wound, before covering it with his flap of skin. Both the color and the related healing symptoms suggest that what she smeared on him was a disinfectant or anti-inflamatory... If any germ got into the wound anyhow, the paste would have killed it. Yes, and on an open wound it would cause a burning sensation; heck even non-broken skin. Any women out there who have ever applied a facial mask? Some of those feel hot, burning and itchy... it's because of disinfecting stuff in the product. She later says she made a paste of "firepod" and "sting-me-not". The latter sounds something like nettles, which would have anti-inflamatory effects. The firepod sounds like it might have the same purpose. Usually wounds contain both aerobe as well as anaerobe germs. Both need to be tackled, not just the one time, but as long as the wound is open.
  • Mirri gives all the necessary medical advice to help it heal fast, explains that there will be a burning sensation and itching (actually itching is a common sign of skin healing anyway)
  • Mirri states the most obvious - with the gangrene on his chest and it already having affected his general vitality and consciousness implies it's in his blood system for all his body. Drogo is dying.
  • She confirms she knows a blood magic ritual that may heal his gangrene, but she warns her that it's hard, dark, and death would be cleaner. She also mentions she paid dear for the lesson in Ashai. And she mentions only death can pay for life.
  • She tellls Dany to go outside, who initially refuses to go. Mirri says she must. She informs that powers dark and old will be conjured up, that the dead will dance inside, and no one living must look at them.

The accusations against Mirri

  • That she cursed Drogo with some malicioius spell in her temple. And yet she used no magic, but common medical tools. We know that spells don't work that easily. Spells come with a price. Mirri performed no physical sacrifice for any spell to work. On top of that, there was no comet yet and dragons weren't yet born. Magic was still weak. And gods aren't real either. It's common in most healing of religious cultures to utter prayers while applying medical procedures. Even Christians did this not so long ago. It's superstition. Even if Mirri said stuff like "let it not work at all," then her words have no more power than Cat telling Jon it should have been him.
  • That possibly she poisoned the poultice as some long con, so that Drogo would rip it off, and use Dothraki healer mud. Well the easiest way to con Drogo, without having a bloodrider tell you that her fate is tied to Drogo's fate, is to not offer any medical assistance at all. Or to apply some "soothing mud" full of germs, and do exactly the same thing that those Dothraki healers do. It wasn't poison that caused gangrene. He was blood poisoned by his own people. If you wish to poison someone, whether food or medicine, you won't use something that tastes awful or itches and burns.
  • That she performed the magic with the specific intent to turn Drogo into a vegetable. Hello, he was dying. Silliest con ever - someone is hours away from dying, but the best revenge is to heal his body? And I think those arguments made about Drogo not being in an outright vegetative state, but possibly still physically traumatized and in recovery, and it was too early to make any such conclusion actually might be right. His body was basically completely shell shocked from the blood poisoning that ran throughout his body and brain.
  • That she performed the magic with the specific intent to abort Rhaego. But all those involved leading up to Dany being carried into the tent make such a conclusion beyond begging the belief. Since when does Mirri have magical control over Drogo's bloodriders, over Dothraki hurling stones at Dany, over birthing women's opinions, over Irri, Doreah and Jorah? Furthermore, it would have been so easy for her to con Dany into staying if Mirri intended Dany to lose her child. Heck, she could have just do no ritual at all, be at her side for the birthing and botch it up. There is no evidence that Mirri wanted to kill Rhaego, not even a confesstion.
  • It's argued that she confessed. She did nothing of the sort. What she said was that Dany knew. What she said was that Mirri was glad Rhaego would not grow up to be the Koeblai Khan of Essos and Westeros. What she said what that her own life was no life at all. None of it is a confession. Was it harsh? Was it venomous? Was it twisting the emotional dagger into Dany's emotions wounds? Yup, totally. Is it a confession? Nope.

If Mirri is guilty of what she's accused of, I find it contain the worst series of plot holes. But only because Dany cannot look back or she's lost, because what she asked for came with too high a price and not the result she wanted, and believes Mirri did it all on purpose, and still believes it (If I look back I'm lost), it must be so. Because dragons were born out of killing the woman she ordered to do what she wanted, somehow Dany must be right? She could have put someone else on the pyre and the dragons would have been born just as well.

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I agree. I don't like how Mirri, an intelligent, well-educated, mature woman is turned into a hapless victim in order to justify a belief that Dany is this evil queen right from the beginning.

 

I'll repost another post of mine of part 1, to nullify your accusation that I believe Dany is the evil queen and Mirri the hapless victim

 

I agree that Mirri is not a good person, for gloating over a young girl's pain. Dany was very young, and she seemed to believe in some fairytale rescue, a magic that could make everything perfectly right again, without much cost. She was in denial of what was happening, and for good reasons. The Dothraki would have cut Rhaego out of her, and killed her along, including for having Mirri take out the arrow, discinfect the wound and put a poultice on it. Drogo was not just all of her emotional life, his life assured hers. She hoped it could be magicked back as before - denial and bargaining. These are two erronous but completely natural ways of dealing with pain and fear for loss. On top of that she was exhausted, recovering from what must have been a horribly painful birthing, the loss of her child, and probably her hormones completely out of whack. And she persisted in the denial and bargaining, until MMD mentally slapped her in the face to make her wake up to reality. That's when the anger and rage came, another normal phase of the grieving process. She needed someone to blame. And she blamed MIrri and unleashed her anger on her.

 

I think it's very very understandable. Doesn't make Dany's judgement any more reliable as every other unreliable narrator. I think of Dany as a young, well intended person, but she makes horrendous mistakes of judgement, especially when she wants to lash out in anger, especially when she's "lost if she looks back". Dany is neither perfect nor evil, and I know she's trying to make a better world. And she makes mistakes along the way - sadly, it are other people who usually pay for her mistakes. 

 

As for Mirri - gloating over Dany's loss of her former husband and her child is awful... But no, I don't think someone deserves to be burned alive for gloating. Meanwhile this mistake in judgement may come back to bite her. Dany counts Mirri as one of the 3 treasons, while Mirri never betrayed her. Because of this Dany's still open to a treason for blood.

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Anyway, there is always so much talk on this forum about women and agency that it is ironic that when a woman not only uses her agency, but also owns it, there are those who quite happily deny it to her. And, as I've said before, I don't blame Mirri for her actions. This is not a betrayal since Drogo, Dany, etc. are her enemies. But at the same time, Dany is not evil for her response to this attack either. Sometimes fate doesn't have an easy answer.

 

Just because a female character is portrayed showing independence and agency does not mean her actions should be justified or praised. Or that her actions are right at all.

 

There are many things MMD could have done instead: save Drogo, show Dany that, had they got her killed, no one would have saved Drogo or Rhaego. Prove her that slavery in Essos need to be stopped. Plant the seed for Dany to realise (nor that she needed to know) that Rhaego should be raised as a more benevolent type of leader.

 

She chose to harm.

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The things are not as simple and clear-cut as some people would have it.

 

Well that too. 

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I agree. I don't like how Mirri, an intelligent, well-educated, mature woman is turned into a hapless victim in order to justify a belief that Dany is this evil queen right from the beginning.

Because an intelligent, well-educated, mature woman wouldn't be the victim of a Dothraki hoarde? Sorry to rock your world but it isn't only weak, unintellegent women who become victims. A person's individual personality traits aren't what make them a victim...that would be victim blaming 101.;)
Mirri was a victim, and to deny this because she would be perceived as weak is a stronger injustice than "turning her into a hapless victim."

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Because an intelligent, well-educated, mature woman wouldn't be the victim of a Dothraki hoarde? Sorry to rock your world but it isn't only weak, unintellegent women who become victims. A person's individual personality traits aren't what make them a victim...that would be victim blaming 101.;)
Mirri was a victim, and to deny this because she would be perceived as weak is a stronger injustice than "turning her into a hapless victim."


Totally agree.

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Mirri was a victim, just not Dany's victim.  Rheago was a victim, just not MMD's victim.  Drogo was a victim, just not MMD's victim, but his own.

 

It seems clear that Jorah is responsible for what happened to Rhaego, however, I don't recall at the moment whether he was aware of MMD's order that no one enter.  I'm getting the show recollection in my head, which was Dany and MMD alone in the tent when she gave the order and Dany left the tent.  I believe Jorah didn't intend any harm, which is reflected in Dany's thoughts.

 

It's speculative as to whether at this point MMD seizes the opportunity to inflict vengeance.  One must at least entertain the idea that she at least THOUGHT of vengeance.  Her speech after the results were in show that she was not only spiteful (not blaming her) but as well leaves the possibility that she took an opportunity that presented itself.  Let's say for example that the spirits in the tent were responsible for Rhaego's death... that still doesn't account for why Drogo is a vegetable.  So Jorah's responsible for bringing Dany in and resulting harm that comes to her child, but MMD is responsible for the magic she performed on Drogo which yielded basically nothing.  MMD I will say did warn her that death would be easier (verbatim) for Drogo.  However, I don't recall her placing the entirety of the blame on Dany (or Jorah by extension) for the ritual failing so badly.  To me it seems if MMD was me, the first thing and only thing to say (if you're completely innocent) is; Jorah is to blame, I gave you specific instructions, those were ignored.

 

That's it.  There's nothing else she need say to defend herself in the context of her being innocent.  That she then goes on to rub it in about how TSTMTW will now never do so suggests at some point, MMD was vengeance seeking. 

 

I'm not sure why we need 20 some pages and 2 threads to clarify much about MMD anyway.  She was a victim of the Dothraki, no doubt, so were her people.  But, that she knows blood magic suggests more than MMD just being a saint.  That she has her moment of defiance in telling Dany she foiled her or Drogo's (Dothraki) ambitions suggests she had the intent of malice.

 

The whole damn series is about the grey-ness of people, both the good in bad men and the bad in good men, women included.  To think that any single character you meet in this series is completely white or black is not viewing the story through the lens GRRM is clear about in his intent.  It's not absurd to see MMD's actions as grey, nor is it absurd to see any of Dany's decisions as grey, or anyone else's for that matter, well except for Hodor, maybe.

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