Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

[Lady Sharya]

I have a two-fold question for anyone who thinks that Mirri planned or intended to poison Dorgo and /or kill Rhaego. WHY?

1.Since Dany was the only thing standing between Mirri and a gruesome death at the hands of the Dothraki, and Drogo's life was the only thing keeping Dany's control of them, why would Mirri jeopardize Drogo's life or piss Dany off before the ritual went wrong?

2. Since Drogo was dying of his wounds, why not just let him die without involving herself? Upon Drogo's death and Rhaego birth, he was going to be snatched from Dany's breast and fed to the dogs, why not just let that happen without involving herself?

[Kyoshi]

I'm typing from my phone and I honestly don't have the time, mostly because I've realised this is an exercise in futility on my part. Firstly, most of you state your opinions quite confidently, as though they are facts. You CHOOSE to interpret the text a different way and refuse to even consider the other person's argument. It's difficult to debate with people who write statements like this one:

I don't know what the contradiction is, unless you're confusing and mingling the varying interpretations of "knowing", and also confuse "knowledge" with "mind control power over 100000 people".

Also, When I say that Dany saved MMD, I make it a point to put it in quotation marks. I do this to indicate the ambiguity of the situation. Otherwise, I explicitly state that this is all from Dany's perspective since clearly, the elder woman was not saved from anything. You seem to have conveniently ignored this while reading my posts. I hope this removes the sour taste from your mouth, Lady Sharya.

And I honestly haven't read all these posts because I now realise it would have been pointless. You came into the debate decided. I skimmed and those points I replied to stood out to me.

Hodor the Articulate, If you return. I wish you luck.

[sweetsunray]

Kyoshi,

 

The free will involved of that many people, and Mirri's correct medical actions and her sending Dany outside is what decided for me that Mirri is not guilty of murdering anyone. The complete lack of evidence against her being guilty is so overwhelming that even if Mirri were to actively claim that she wanted to kill Rhaego through the ritual I'd still would not find her guilty of it. So, yes, you are right that imo all this talk whether Mirri semi-confessed or not at all is pretty useless. If I call Mel's claim BS, then I would call Mirri claiming the same likewise BS. But Mirri didn't even do that.

 

If you were to ask me whether Mirri was evil spirited and harsh and cruel to Dany, I've already said, "Aye, she is." But as long as people cannot show and prove how Mirri managed to mind control a whole khalasar of Dothraki, she is not guilty to me.

[Clegane'sPup]

Chapter 61

The description of Drogo’s wound:

 

The arakh cut was wide but shallow; his left nipple was gone and a flap of bloody flesh and skin dangled from his chest like a wet rag.

 

Drogo had sent the hairless men away so that his men could be healed first. They had two types of healers:

 

The herbwomen dealt in potions and spells, the eunuchs in knife, needle and fire.

 

Mirri approaches Dany:

 

“Silver Lady,” a woman’s voice said behind her, “I can help the Great Rider with his hurts.”

 

The Dothraki reference her as maegi, a woman who lay with demons and practice the blackest of sorceries, a vile thing, evil and soulless, who came to men in the dark of night and sucked life and strength from their bodies. In other words, due to their beliefs they do not trust Mirri.

 

“Why should you want to help my khal?” “All men are of one flock, or so we are taught,” replied Mirri Maz Duur.  It appears she is sincere.  Drogo is taken into her temple and placed upon an alter.

 

“She will do no harm.” Dany felt she could trust this old, plain faced woman[…] You must say the prayers I give you and keep the lambskin in place for ten days and ten nights,” she said. “There will be fever, itching and a great scar when the healing is done.” […] Drink neither wine nor milk of the poppy,” she cautioned him.

 

So it appears that Dany trusts the maegi and the dothorki do not. Mirri gives instructions.

 

Chapter 64

Drogo paid no heed to Mirri’s instructions. He had her remedy replaced after six days with mud made by his herbwomen and he drank milk of the poppy, fermented mare’s milk and pepper beer.

 

A khal who cannot ride could not rule, and Drogo has fallen from his horse. Dany has sent for Mirri and tries to keep the news from spreading. Jorah tells her, “Your khal is good as dead, Princess.” And he goes into the rules of power within the Dothraki, telling her they will kill her baby. Dany has every reason to want Drogo to survive. She is desperate at this point.

 

"Ask or tell, it makes no matter." He is beyond a healer’s skills. […] I made him a poultice of firepod and sting-me-not and bound it with lambskin. […] “Make him another poultice,” Dany begged.  Mirri tells her there is nothing she can do except ease his pain & that he will be dead by morning.

 

Again it appears that Mirri is being truthful and Dany desperate.

 

Then we get into the ambiguous blood magic. “This is blood magic, lady. Only death may pay for life.”

 

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.” Dany trembled with relief. “Do it.”

 

 

Dany has been told by Jorah and Mirri that Drogo is as good as dead. Dany in her desperation and with her limited information decides to go through with the blood magic. Again Mirri gives instructions. Tells her to leave the tent. “Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent […]

 

 

That is as far as I am going. No one person is responsible, seems as if all involved had their own agenda.

[Lady Sharya]

Also, When I say that Dany saved MMD, I make it a point to put it in quotation marks. I do this to indicate the ambiguity of the situation. Otherwise, I explicitly state that this is all from Dany's perspective since clearly, the elder woman was not saved from anything. You seem to have conveniently ignored this while reading my posts. I hope this removes the sour taste from your mouth, Lady Sharya.

I didn't read your post on Dany saving Mirri and was referring to myself having to counter this type of argument (that I've read many times from other posters). I even premised my request with an apology if that was not going to be your reply. I meant it how I wrote it with no hiden dig at you.

We are simply relying on all the text GRRM provided to formulate our opinions on Mirri's intent to harm Dany, Drogo and Rhaego without the bias required to only see the situation from the POV's thoughts. This is what posters do when they judge characters and situations...unless they have a bias to love or hate a character.

[Darkstream]

Firstly, I kindly ask that we have this debate in a civil manner. Rolling your eyes at me and being sarcastic isn't going to help your argument. I will also refrain from being derisive.

I'm sorry, I had no intent to offend or be derisive towards you, for that I apologize.

"Implying a passive attempt" is an interesting choice of words on your part, "passive" being more interesting to me. Had Mirri been more active, more plain with her words, your argument would not have to hinge on mere implication of a passive attempt. I think at  this point, with what I assume is your concession (judging by the quoted), that Mirri Maz Duur did not go out of her away to warn her of the price to be paid. Furthermore...

No, this is not a concession, this is interpreting the text without bias or twisting it to support my argument. At this point in the conversation, the opportunity does not present itself to actively dissuade Danny. And this in no way nullifies nor diminishes my point, which was that Mirri had no desire or intention of performing the ritual. Besides, this is only the first example I provided, the others do not fall into this category.

 

Mirri presents Dany with options. Having previously established herself as an expert mage, through her own words, MMD cannot claim later that she had been oblivious of the possible consequences of her actions. It makes sense, at least to me, to say that "this will not be easy." In this quote you provide:

I'm not even sure what your getting at here. But to address your statement: I don't believe Mirri is oblivious to the consequences of her actions. But, can she read the future to know that someone was going to enter the tent against her specific instructions that under no circumstances is anyone to enter?
 

...the horses to which the women are referring are horses that would be payment for MMD's services, they are being mentioned as currency (which is made clear by the fact that they are mentioned along with gold and followed by the phrase: whatever you like), not sacrifice

Exactly, thank you for supporting my position on this. This is the one and only reference to a horse before Danny gives her consent to go ahead with the ritual. And as you so kindly pointed out, it has absolutely nothing to do with the sacrifice required.


 

Yes, MMD warns her. Immediately after that, Dany voices the question of whether she might be it, to which MMD replies no, to which MMD conveniently neglects to mention, "although not yours, it will be another life." This suggests that in Dany asking the question and MMD answering it so definitively, at least from Dany's perspective, that the issue of a human life has been ruled out as a viable option. She briefly opened that door, and just as quickly closed it when it was made apparent that the price would not be that high.

This in no way rules out the possibility of a human sacrifice. I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Why is it on Mirri to present this additional information to Danny? Don't you think that anyone, after being told "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say death is cleaner..." would inquire as to what she meant? Danny does no such thing and shows no concern as long as it's not her life, and Mirri obviously senses this.

Dany's only crime here is ignorance, not compliance. With new-found hope and assurance that the price will not be high, she gives permission for the ritual.

This in no way makes Mirri responsible. And please do provide a quote where Danny was given assurance that the price would not be so high.
 

 

Immediately after the quote you provided, I believe MMD gives instruction for the horse to be brought into the tent. With the provided context up to that point, where a human life (according to Dany) is not necessary, and the price is vague due to neither party confirming with the other, MMD's command to bring the horse suggests that its death will suffice. The text says as much:
 
What do you mean to do [with the horse]? Dany asked her [MMD].
We need the blood, Mirri answered. That is the way.

Sorry, this is after the fact that Danny gives consent, and in no way implies that the horse is the sacrifice. She says "we need the blood, that is the way", the way referring to the way the ritual is performed. She does not say, the horse is the sacrifice.

[The silver dragon]

even if Mirri didn't intentionally kill Rhaego that does not make her Innocent.

 

 

cause last i checked Involuntary manslaughter, of an infant is still pretty fucking illegal.

[Severiality]

even if Mirri didn't intentionally kill Rhaego that does not make her Innocent.

 

 

cause last i checked Involuntary manslaughter, of an infant is still pretty fucking illegal.

Dany made her do it.  She's even more culpable as the slavemaster.

[Lady Sharya]

^This.^ Plus, last I checked, none of the Targs born with bat wings, a tail, and scales ever survived.

[Darkstream]

^This.^ Plus, last I checked, none of the Targs born with bat wings, a tail, and scales ever survived.

Oooh!! New crackpot, one of Maegor's dragon babies survived and is now a 250 yr. old dragon greenseer hidden at the God's Eye. :p

[Lady Sharya]

Oooh!! New crackpot, one of Maegor's dragon babies survived and is now a 250 yr. old dragon greenseer hidden at the God's Eye. :p

Of coarse! Why didn't I pick up on that? Clever you.:)
There was a theory once that Mirri pretended the baby died but really carried him out in her chest of magic. He's now being raised with the lamb people who managed to escape.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

So, the souls for the first ritual (Mirri's) would be Drogo's 3 bloodriders, Dany's 1 khas and a stallion. The souls for the second would be Drogo, Mirri, Rhaego and a stallion. Hmm? I don't see any symmetry or patern here.

Question: Why wasn't Rhago's body put on the funeral pyre? Why wasn't he given a funeral? I vaguely recall a theory way back that Rhaego could still be alive. Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

Well, I was not thinking about a pattern, I just had in mind an one-to-one death for life. It seems very fitting to be Quaro for Drogo, as you proposed - the one whose life was not at stake in different alternatives. But I also think that the three lives of Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri are fitting for the three dragons as I've seen in proposed in other threads.

 

Subsequently, I don't believe in theories that have Rhaego live. I suppose his body was burned or burried immediately: I think that Jorah (and possibly, her handmaidens too) would wish to spare Dany from seeing this horrible thing, like he didn't want to describe it to her.

[Darkstream]

Of coarse! Why didn't I pick up on that? Clever you.:)
There was a theory once that Mirri pretended the baby died but really carried him out in her chest of magic. He's now being raised with the lamb people who managed to escape.

What a let down, he was once the stallion that mounted the world, now, only the ram that grazed the pasture.;)

[Lady Sharya]

What a let down, he was once the stallion that mounted the world, now, only the ram that grazed the pasture.;)

Haha I like that metaphor.:)
I think I'll go with ShadowCat Rivers and squelch any ideas in my head to start looking for Rhaego the silver winged stallion grazing the pastures.

Well, I was not thinking about a pattern, I just had in mind an one-to-one death for life. It seems very fitting to be Quaro for Drogo, as you proposed - the one whose life was not at stake in different alternatives. But I also think that the three lives of Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri are fitting for the three dragons as I've seen in proposed in other threads.

Yes, I read some of those and they make sense. Three would-be-powerful souls in exchange for three stone dragon eggs to come to life.