Longbow technique

[Ser Lepus]

I have read many people to claim that longbows (like those the Westerosi use) are more powerful than recurve bows (like those the Essosi use) because they would shoot the using the english style, that is, laying the weight of the body on the bow, which allows for greater draw weights.

 

However, all the videos about english longbows I have watched show the longbowmen shooting their weapons just like any other archer would do... Is there any demonstration of the english technique somewhere in the net?

 

Thank you.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Unless you refer to the difference between three-finger-grip or shooting from the thumb like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CczOQqpRuNo.

 

The issue with using the body is connected to the difference between mounted riders having a horse between the legs, limiting their range of movement.

 

But that doesn't make any difference in performance. It's the bows that make the difference. The Essosi ones are not up to standard, plain and simple.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

You'll  anchor the draw of the Longbow the same way as a recurve when hunting, to the side of the mouth, but for use in war (i.e. Artillery shooting) the Longbow draw would be anchored to the collar bone increasing the draw length and poundage thereby increasing distance/penetration at the expense of accuracy but you're generally shooting at an area rather than a defined target so it's not a problem.

 

The main difference between recurves and longbows is that recurves are more complex and harder to make but can provide the same poundage with a shorter bow however there are drawbacks to the bow being shorter other than it just being harder to make.

[Black Crow]

Following from that its important to distinguish between shooting a modern longbow and a great warbow. Simply put I've been shooting 60lb for years because that's all it requires for accurate shooting, and even then I know plenty of shooters who use lighter ones. However I'm not trying to pierce armour. For that, as Ice Wolf says you need a far greater draw weight 100-120lb and sometimes more  and you're not shooting for accuracy. All you are doing essentially is using your whole body to haul it back and loft a succession of heavy arrows in the air so that they drop as an arrow storm.

 

While you can obviously use a recurve to shoot clouds of arrows, they really work best at shooting accurately on a flat trajectory at relatively close range.

 

As with all of these things its horses for courses.

[Ser Lepus]

It seems that medieval English did use a technique that allowed them to shoot more powerful bows:

 

A record of how boys and men trained to use the bows with high draw weights survives from the reign of Henry VII.
 
My yeoman father] taught me how to draw, how to lay my body in my bow ... not to draw with strength of arms as divers other nations do ... I had my bows bought me according to my age and strength, as I increased in them, so my bows were made bigger and bigger. For men shall never shoot well unless they be brought up to it.
—Hugh Latimer.

What Latimer meant when he describes laying his body into the bow was described thus:

the Englishman did not keep his left hand steady, and draw his bow with his right; but keeping his right at rest upon the nerve, he pressed the whole weight of his body into the horns of his bow. Hence probably arose the phrase "bending the bow," and the French of "drawing" one.
—W. Gilpin.

 

However, it seems nobody knows how to do that now. All videos and ilustrations show the standard technique.

 

I wonder if that trick was used only to shoot massive volleys at battle, when you didn't need to aim at a single target, but at a general area.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That isn't a trick. That's quite normal, the standard technique. Except for some small modern toy bows with 15-25 pounds.

 

It's just a statement about the great strength of professional archers. Seriously, those guys resembled the Hulk.

[Ser Lepus]

By the descrition, it seems they would keep the right hand close to the shoulder or ear and use the left arm to move the bow onwards, somehow laying the weight of the body on the bow (maybe resting the lower tip of the bow on the ground to help bend the "horns"?).

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

It seems that medieval English did use a technique that allowed them to shoot more powerful bows:

 

 

However, it seems nobody knows how to do that now. All videos and ilustrations show the standard technique.

 

I wonder if that trick was used only to shoot massive volleys at battle, when you didn't need to aim at a single target, but at a general area.

 

I can't tell what "pressing whole body into the horns" means from that... But from the rest it sounds like they're just pushing out with left hand? That sounds like a normal draw technique to me. I'm a pretty big noob at archery, but the 1 day I did do it I was shown to push with the bow hand since holding the bow out and then drawing the string back was like... impossible (for my weak piddly arms I guess).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Actually they'd have both arms down, belly-height, to nock the arrow and then raise and draw in a swift movement, stretching the left arm while bending the right, working from the shoulders.

Which is how you use any bow except for some modern ones with gunsight and automatic release.

 

And putting the lower tip on the bow is a good way to ruin the bow even without any force applied. Actually trying to bend it that way is pure idiocy.

[Eltharion21]

There is this video that mentions some things , maybe that would be of matter to this thread:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=479IwMEKkFg

At 12:29 he starts to talk about difference between common and professional archers in England.

[Ser Lepus]

Actually they'd have both arms down, belly-height, to nock the arrow and then raise and draw in a swift movement, stretching the left arm while bending the right, working from the shoulders.
Which is how you use any bow except for some modern ones with gunsight and automatic release.
 
And putting the lower tip on the bow is a good way to ruin the bow even without any force applied. Actually trying to bend it that way is pure idiocy.

 
I have never used a bow, so I wouldn't know. I just wanted to know what means "to lay my body in my bow" and "pressed the whole weight of his body into the horns of his bow".

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

I have never used a bow, so I wouldn't now. I just wanted to know what means "to lay my body in my bow" and "pressed the whole weight of his body into the horns of his bow".

Using the shoulders and the muscles on your back. Left arm stretched out in a straight line with both your shoulders.

 

Which wouldn't be possbile for a mounted archer shooting forwad or backwards, only while he was shooting to the left. But it's actually the standard for shooting traditional bows afoot.

[Ser Lepus]

There is this video that mentions some things , maybe that would be of matter to this thread:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=479IwMEKkFg

At 12:29 he starts to talk about difference between common and professional archers in England.

 

Thank you. I had already watched that video, actually.

[A Bastard Snow]

You guys know the mass volleys of arrows is just in movies right?.With wood such a commodity and that each arrow was hand fletched archers had to aim at targets not just spam arrows.Also you can't forget Arbalist's.Ranged weaponry ended up accounting for the vast majority of injuries and death in nearly every war as far as I know.

Hell the church tried to ban crossbows cause they were so deadly and nearly anyone can use them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

Thank you. I had already watched that video, actually.

Well, it gets the basics from the archery side, but on the receiving end it's utterly lacking. Arrows very, very rarely penetrated armor.

 

You guys know the mass volleys of arrows is just in movies right?.With wood such a commodity and that each arrow was hand fletched archers had to aim at targets not just spam arrows.Also you can't forget Arbalist's.Ranged weaponry ended up accounting for the vast majority of injuries and death in nearly every war as far as I know.

Hell the church tried to ban crossbows cause they were so deadly and nearly anyone can use them.

Nope, volleys were the way to go. Shooting for single targets was useless above very short distances since the target moved while the arrow was still in flight. But a thousand men bunched together make a splendid target for volleys.

Anyway, even such iconic battles like Crecy or Azincourt were won in hand-to-hand combat. The arrows only winded the French before they closed, no more.

 

Crossbows are a different matter, they could be easily used by peasants to assassinate their rulers. That's the problem.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

Crossbows are a different matter, they could be easily used by peasants to assassinate their rulers. That's the problem.

Yeah the problem with crossbows is that someone with very little training could now compete with well trained archers.

The trained archers were still better as they had a higher rate of fire but they were not as easy to replace as arbalists.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Indeed. And you could keep a crossbow drawn for quite some time without loosing accuracy. Perfect for castle walls - or assassination from the bushes.

[Black Crow]

It seems that medieval English did use a technique that allowed them to shoot more powerful bows:

 

 

However, it seems nobody knows how to do that now. All videos and ilustrations show the standard technique.

 

I wonder if that trick was used only to shoot massive volleys at battle, when you didn't need to aim at a single target, but at a general area.

 

Don't use the technique myself since I don't need to when shooting 60lb [and probably a bit less after all these years] but I do know and have watched people who do. Its not a lost art. The technique is known and can be practiced, but when it gets to over 100lb draw weight you're talking about years of practice and resultant malformation of the upper body - a price which is a bit high for a hobby.

 

And yes, I'm with blue eyes; arrow storms were the way to go and its important to bear in mind the effect. If each archer lofts just 10 shafts in the air, then every hundred archers means that gravity being as it is that's 1,000 shafts coming down in the space of a couple of minutes from them alone. And then you have the lads coming up from the back with more. 

[A Bastard Snow]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Oh god, please not that stuntshooter. Please, just forget everything he tells. Or at least watch the critical videos in the sidebar as well.