Woman with a monkey tail, possible suspect

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Or rather, a clever hint to what her story might have been, at the time her actions may have ended the Long Night.

She may be a reference to Ariadne, of Greek mythology.

• Long story short, Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos of Crete (of the Minoan civilisation, which gave rise to the Atlantis myth, itself a huge source for the Doom). King Minos had a labyrinth at the centre of which was the Minotaur, who liked to eat people. Theseus, the Athenian "hero" went to kill the Minotaur, but was only able to do that because Ariadne helped him.

 

Here's the relevant AWOIAF quote:

"...the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail."

 

There's theories that the "tail" is a hint at either skinchanging or human-animal hybrids. I'm not saying either isn't right, but rather, that there may be another hint here.

 

The woman with the plan(t)

 

"Monkey tail" is a name for "heliotropum curassavicum", a type of heliotrope (sun-following plant) more commonly known as "Chinese parsley".

 

"Chinese parsley" is itself a common name for coriander (or cilantro). It's a bit weird, but turns out the two plants (the monkey-tail heliotrope and coriander) are unrelated, but they can both be called "Chinese parsley".

 

Monkey tail = "Chinese parsley" = coriander.

 

Coriander in mythology

Coriander is where it gets interesting, which you don't hear often enough about a herb. It's main mythological association is with Ariadne, who is heavily connected with it, and is depicted holding it.

 

There's also a possibility the word coriander itself is related to Ariadne's name. The oldest Linear B script version (Mycenean, not Minoan) is "ko-ri-ja-dna", and it's speculated that it gave rise to both "coriander" and "Ariadne".

So Ariadne is the woman with the coriander, or "Chinese parsley". Or, through a mistranslation (by a maester?) the woman with the monkey tail?

 

Shame

Back to WOIAF: the woman with the monkey tail is mentioned in the context of her deeds averting disaster, after the sun had hid its face in shame. She's a woman who "saved the day" (literally), which is the role Ariadne plays (figuratively) in the Theseus myth.

In the Greek myth, the Minotaur itself is described as a source of great shame for the palace. The Minotaur was the son of the King's wife, whom Poseidon cursed with a lust for a sacred white bull - which she indulged, and gave birth to the Minotaur.

 

So both Ariadne and the woman with the monkey tail are connected with ending/killing a great shame.

I'm thinking that these are all hints meant to help flesh out the story of the Long Night, as told across WOIAF in bits and pieces. This part says: there was a "heroic" female, with an Ariadne-like story.

Dany and Ariadne

Dany in ACOK is heavily associated with the Theseus myth.

The most obvious is her journey in the House of the Undying, which is Theseus' journey. The House is a labyrinth (always turning the same way is a classic instruction for how to not get lost), there is a danger at the centre, and she destroys it. More than that, Drogon actively plays the role of Ariadne here, to Dany's Theseus - he guides her through the labyrinth, especially with the final door.

The more subtle Ariadne hint in ACOK is the Qartheen boob dress. "Sleeping Ariadne" is one of the best known antique sculptures, and she's reclining in a dress that exposes one of her breasts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Ariadne. By itself, it's nothing, but in the context of Dany's entire arc in ACOK, I reckon it's a bit more than nothing.

This whole thing may have been a one-off, ACOK-only use of the Theseus/Ariadne imagery to develop Dany's story, but it's interesting GRRM would then (maybe) expressly resurrect Ariadne imagery in TWOIAF.

Poor Ariadne

So hopefully there's no further associations between Dany and Ariadne, because her story is kind of sad.

She falls in love with Theseus, helps him through the labyrinth (you could say she betrays her own people to do that - the bull is her half brother), Theseus takes her back to Athens with her (so far so good!), only to abandon her on the way. Ariadne, broken hearted, becomes a consort to Dionysus, the dying-and-resurrected god.

Theseus, the "hero", sure looks like he betrayed Ariadne, the actual hero.

Love... betrayal... Dany... do not mix!

I hope I don't smell foreshadowing.

[Cagey Bee]

Man, what are the chances Tyrion is the consort referenced in relation to Dionysus? I mean, I know he's not with her, (and may not.. I'm not sold on Tyrion joining up with Dany) but he kind of fits Dionysus..

[Cagey Bee]

And maybe Dario abandons her? Or perhaps that relates to Victorian abandoning her? Maybe she doesn't have to fall in love with him to be abandoned similarly?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I reckon the Theseus character might be Euron: if he uses Dany to get a dragon and then betrays her. We'll see what Victarion actually achieves, I'm not sure he's anything more than a tool for Euron or (and?) Moqorro.

I do like the Tyrion idea. The most obvious "dead and resurrected" consort might be Jon, but I doubt it would be a marriage situation for other reasons (don't buy D + J). But if it is a non-husband "consort" (partner / adviser), then it might well be Tyrion as well.

[Cagey Bee]

Ooh.. yeah I like Euron for that role. Dead and resurrected would obviously refer to Jon, but I might wonder if there are maybe more subtle takers for that role. Of course, talking about out of lore stories related to in lore references may mean that finding the subtle hint in it is unnecessary.. it's already pretty subtle as is, being a reference to actual mythology.

Edit: agree, I think D + J would be a little to fairy tale for George.

[Mexican Whooping Llama]

I had never thought about Euron + Dany but as a drowned man he does fit the dying/resurrected idea well.
However, wouldn't Jon Snow fit it just as well being he is currently suspected of being dead?

[Mexican Whooping Llama]

Oops. Double post.

[LmL]

LPC, when you post an essay like, this, it would be nice of you to send me a note. :)

 

Heliotropium, did you say????

 

That is of course bloodstone, as I have outlined in my Bloodstone Emperor essay.  The fire moon is symbolized by bloodstone, heliotrope, and the myth of Klytie is of a woman who pines away for the sun god, turning her head to follow its path every day, until she sprang roots and became aslant, the heliotropium.  Dany is already equated with this bloodstone moon, so the idea of her relationship with the monkey tail woman is already there.

 

Who is the most prominent monkey symbol in the book? Tyrion, of course, who will in fact be Dany's tail (advisor) in short order. Dany is a woman with a monkey tail (Tyrion). Tyrion will be assisting her to navigate the labyrinth of George's R. R. Martin's sick imagination. I've always seen this connection, but hard not idea about the Ariadne connection, which tightens it up. Tyrion is also a gargoyle, a twisted monkey demon, and the shame of house lannister... and occasionally a giant. Very Minotaur like.  

 

it's important to remember that GRRM doesn't do one - to one correlations, so instead of slaying the minotaur, the minotaur might become her tail, her Theseus. Martin draws from lots of myths, but always bends them to fit his story. An inverted parallel is still a parallel, you know? 

 

Even if she does not marry Jon, he scan still play the Dionysius role (which he is already doing as Corn King Jon Snow), because they have parallel arcs. If they fight, its the same as fucking, symbolically. 

 

Terrific job on the thread, this was deep in the weeds, even for me. I love it, and admire your prowess.   :bowdown:

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Heliotropium, did you say????

 

That is of course bloodstone, as I have outlined in my Bloodstone Emperor essay.  The fire moon is symbolized by bloodstone, heliotrope, and the myth of Klytie is of a woman who pines away for the sun god, turning her head to follow its path every day, until she sprang roots and became aslant, the heliotropium.  Dany is already equated with this bloodstone moon, so the idea of her relationship with the monkey tail woman is already there.

 

 

Yes I thought you might like that. ;)

 

It's not just any heliotrope, it's known as the seaside heliotrope because it grows in salty soil where nothing else grows. Are the Ironborn actually salty/seaside "heliotropes"? I initially wanted to make something out of this too, but I reckon it's too deep:

 

It is known by several common names, such as seaside heliotrope, salt heliotrope, monkey tail, quail plant and "Chinese parsley" (although this last name is also used for coriander).

 

Anyway, I thought the coriander connection was nuts at first, but then the more I looked into Ariadne, the more it became obvious Ariadne stuff is everywhere in the books. And the monkey tail thing is such a goddamned non-sequitur, I can only imagine it has an intended purpose. 

 

Ariadne as the pretty princess who helps (and is then abandoned by) the hero, is only the Athenian version of the story - Theseus was the Athenian hero. If you look into Ariadne herself, and who she may have been in Minoan Crete, you get a completely different picture. There's a line of argument that Ariadne represents the distorted memory of the Mistress of the Labyrinth, the Minoan chief deity. Of course, when the Zeus-loving Mycenaeans conquered Crete (which they could only do after a series of natural disasters, including the Doom-like Thera eruption, weakened Crete), Ariadne was reduced to an image that the patriarchal Mycenaeans could process. It's your standard Younger Gods v Older Gods, sitting on top a shift from a matriarchal society/religion to a patriarchal one.

 

I mean, for the romantics, Minoan Crete was the original civilisation from which classical Greece sprung - the motherland of myth. It's not a coincidence so much Minoan stuff rings a bell, it's basically the Great Empire of the Dawn (invented celestial navigation, to boot).

 

The Tyrion link is great btw! Of course he'll tail her.

 

As for fuck, marry, kill: Dany is the Bride of Fire, so, all of the above? Although I can't seriously imagine how GRRM could pull off Dany and Jon's storylines converging to the point of sexual intercourse, in two books - considering where he is, where she is and what she's gonna be doing to Essos first. Dany's death is foreshadowed in the first book, not only because she immolates herself on her husband's pyre as the climax of the book (plus how she sees her husband "Drogo" and his whip lashing down, ie killing her, AA-style), but also with the whole "you'll see Drogo when you bear a living child" thing; but if MMD was giving her a hint of how she'll die, I guess her death would specifically be tied with sex.

 

And we know from the Undying prophecy that the last Bride of Fire image is the blue flower filling the air with sweetness - Jon. The sweetness / sweet smell of death (and/or corruption) is a repeating image in the books.

 

It looks like these signs point to "J+D = living child + Dany's death", but for the fact of how the hell is this going to happen with this few pages left?

[Cagey Bee]

I imagine it would happen quickly. Giggity.

[Lady Barbrey]

Or rather, a clever hint to what her story might have been, at the time her actions may have ended the Long Night.

She may be a reference to Ariadne, of Greek mythology.

• Long story short, Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos of Crete (of the Minoan civilisation, which gave rise to the Atlantis myth, itself a huge source for the Doom). King Minos had a labyrinth at the centre of which was the Minotaur, who liked to eat people. Theseus, the Athenian "hero" went to kill the Minotaur, but was only able to do that because Ariadne helped him.

 

Here's the relevant AWOIAF quote:

 

There's theories that the "tail" is a hint at either skinchanging or human-animal hybrids. I'm not saying either isn't right, but rather, that there may be another hint here.

 

The woman with the plan(t)

 

"Monkey tail" is a name for "heliotropum curassavicum", a type of heliotrope (sun-following plant) more commonly known as "Chinese parsley".

 

"Chinese parsley" is itself a common name for coriander (or cilantro). It's a bit weird, but turns out the two plants (the monkey-tail heliotrope and coriander) are unrelated, but they can both be called "Chinese parsley".

 

Monkey tail = "Chinese parsley" = coriander.

 

Coriander in mythology

Coriander is where it gets interesting, which you don't hear often enough about a herb. It's main mythological association is with Ariadne, who is heavily connected with it, and is depicted holding it.

 

There's also a possibility the word coriander itself is related to Ariadne's name. The oldest Linear B script version (Mycenean, not Minoan) is "ko-ri-ja-dna", and it's speculated that it gave rise to both "coriander" and "Ariadne".

So Ariadne is the woman with the coriander, or "Chinese parsley". Or, through a mistranslation (by a maester?) the woman with the monkey tail?

 

Shame

Back to WOIAF: the woman with the monkey tail is mentioned in the context of her deeds averting disaster, after the sun had hid its face in shame. She's a woman who "saved the day" (literally), which is the role Ariadne plays (figuratively) in the Theseus myth.

In the Greek myth, the Minotaur itself is described as a source of great shame for the palace. The Minotaur was the son of the King's wife, whom Poseidon cursed with a lust for a sacred white bull - which she indulged, and gave birth to the Minotaur.

 

So both Ariadne and the woman with the monkey tail are connected with ending/killing a great shame.

I'm thinking that these are all hints meant to help flesh out the story of the Long Night, as told across WOIAF in bits and pieces. This part says: there was a "heroic" female, with an Ariadne-like story.

Dany and Ariadne

Dany in ACOK is heavily associated with the Theseus myth.

The most obvious is her journey in the House of the Undying, which is Theseus' journey. The House is a labyrinth (always turning the same way is a classic instruction for how to not get lost), there is a danger at the centre, and she destroys it. More than that, Drogon actively plays the role of Ariadne here, to Dany's Theseus - he guides her through the labyrinth, especially with the final door.

The more subtle Ariadne hint in ACOK is the Qartheen boob dress. "Sleeping Ariadne" is one of the best known antique sculptures, and she's reclining in a dress that exposes one of her breasts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Ariadne. By itself, it's nothing, but in the context of Dany's entire arc in ACOK, I reckon it's a bit more than nothing.

This whole thing may have been a one-off, ACOK-only use of the Theseus/Ariadne imagery to develop Dany's story, but it's interesting GRRM would then (maybe) expressly resurrect Ariadne imagery in TWOIAF.

Poor Ariadne

So hopefully there's no further associations between Dany and Ariadne, because her story is kind of sad.

She falls in love with Theseus, helps him through the labyrinth (you could say she betrays her own people to do that - the bull is her half brother), Theseus takes her back to Athens with her (so far so good!), only to abandon her on the way. Ariadne, broken hearted, becomes a consort to Dionysus, the dying-and-resurrected god.

Theseus, the "hero", sure looks like he betrayed Ariadne, the actual hero.

Love... betrayal... Dany... do not mix!

I hope I don't smell foreshadowing.

It's interesting that there are two heliotropes - one the green and red stone called heliotrope, and one the purple flower called heliotrope.  And we have a Bloodstone Emperor, associated with the stone, and an Amethyst Empress, his sister, associated through the colour purple with the flower.This is interesting as well because they are family members, therefore split into oppositionals as stone and flower.

 

In the posts I've been doing recently, centering on the purple-eyed Daynes as the descendants and inheritors of the Amethyst Empress, purple has become the colour of guidance and leadership for people escaping oppression.  Note the purple sails of the anti-slavery Braavosi, for one example.  And that's what populated Westeros to begin with, I've surmised. The descendants of the Amethyst Empress, known for their purple eyes (the Daynes, some of whom likely become the Valyrians), guide their people away from the enslavement of the Bloodstone Emperor and his descendants, to Westeros.  I won't get into that here, it's a whole theory of evidence and connections in and of itself.

 

So I absolutely love this catch on your part!  Because why is Theseus there in the first place?  For himself?  No, he's trying to end the practice of tribute from his country of its young men and women to become slaves or sacrifices to the Minotaur.  And his guide in this is the Minotaur's sister, Ariadne, whose name via coriander relates to a purple flower (a symbol of escape from slavery in the west), and a monkey's tail that has ever after symbolized for the Yi Ti escape from the Long Night and the excesses of the usurping Bloodstone Emperor.  

 

I don't think this is reaching at all, by the way.  It fits too neatly.  What's more, in my investigations into the "secret history" (of escaped slaves) in the world book, it looks like Tyrion is definitely a Targ.  So the idea of him associated as Dany's "tail" fits perfectly too.  Jon (whether Dayne or Targaryan), Dany and Tyrion's heritage, pre-dating the corrupted Valyrian Daynes, is to guide and lead their people out of oppression, slavery and danger.  

 

It's possible that the postscript to the story, Ariadne's abandonment by Theseus, does come into play as a metaphorical parallel to the Valyrian abandonment of their traditional First Men role, when they go to Essos and become dragon riders and slavers themselves, but I think the core of the symbolic story is the killing of the Minotar and escape from the labyrinth.

 

I want to thank  you for drawing this to my attention.  It is one more symbolic layer I can add to my main theory.  I did not understand the "monkey's tail" and how it fit, and you've provided a mythical connection that fits it perfectly. :bowdown:

 

ETA: I hope you don't mind if I use this in a possible upcoming essay on this?  I've been told an update of some kind might rub everyone's posts out, so I will just acknowledge your name as providing the explanation for the monkey's tail if that's alright?

 

P.S.  I have not yet investigated it, but this tale very likely relates to the labyrinths and mazes on both Essos and Westeros.  

[hiemal]

!!!!

I couldn't make heads or monkey tails out of that passage- well caught!

[hiemal]

My initial steps down this exciting new path lead to me speculate:

Could Azor Ahai's Ariadne have been either or a CotF or an Other who betrayed her people to help end the Long Night?

[LmL]

My initial steps down this exciting new path lead to me speculate:

Could Azor Ahai's Ariadne have been either or a CotF or an Other who betrayed her people to help end the Long Night?

 

Nissa means "helpful elf," baby

 

The God Emperor of the Great Empire marries... the God Empress? Well we have one of those... conveniently located on the "Great and Holy Isle of Leng," where they have the Old Ones underground... and golden eyes... JUST SAYIN

[hiemal]

 

Nissa means "helpful elf," baby

 

The God Emperor of the Great Empire marries... the God Empress? Well we have one of those... conveniently located on the "Great and Holy Isle of Leng," where they have the Old Ones underground... and golden eyes... JUST SAYIN

The Lengi seem to me like a combination of the CotF and the Giants- or some kind of ancestral stock. As for what's underneath...

[LmL]

Oh and btw, Lady Babs, have you seen this quote?

Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells. She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and the striped black-and-white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany.

 

She's still famous! And "bright eyed" is undoubtedly a reference to the gemstone-eyed emperors, no?

[hiemal]

So... spitballing here:

The Lengi are the remnants of the Mazebuilders, who created labrynths to contain the Old Ones. Azor Ahai for some reason needs access to the Maze, Ariadne helps him, and they head to Westeros to confront their destiny- or would have to return to Athens/Asshai?

[Lady Barbrey]

 

Oh and btw, Lady Babs, have you seen this quote?

Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells. She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and the striped black-and-white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany.

 

She's still famous! And "bright eyed" is undoubtedly a reference to the gemstone-eyed emperors, no?

 

I absolutely did, LmL, that's why the monkey tail excited my interest - they are still carrying a symbol of their version of the amethyst empress as guide, leader and saviour.  I did not catch the "bright-eyed" but that could well tie in too.   

[Lady Barbrey]

So... spitballing here:

The Lengi are the remnants of the Mazebuilders, who created labrynths to contain the Old Ones. Azor Ahai for some reason needs access to the Maze, Ariadne helps him, and they head to Westeros to confront their destiny- or would have to return to Athens/Asshai?

There are a couple of things you need to dispense with, I think, before you can come to an analysis.  One is Azor Ahai.  That is a corrupted prophecy.  It comes from Asshai and anything that comes from Asshai is going to seem like salvation but lead to destruction and enslavement.  Yi Ti, Leng, the Jhogos Nai, the Five Forts, the Gray Wastes and Asshai are a mirror image of Westeros, and at the same time provide one family, the Kings of the First Men, the Daynes, with a history.  The Valyrians are an offshoot of the Daynes who have embraced blood and fire and are therefore more in line with the Bloodstone Emperor.  That is Dany's fate if she continues to embrace her dragon self - she will think she is saving but she will be destroying.  That is Tyrion as Targ's fate too - his dream of two heads, one laughing as he destroys Jaime, the other weeping - which will he choose, his humanity or his dragon self?  Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire, if there is an Amethyst Empress reborn, it's him, born of a cold blue flower and a red hot dragon (red plus blue is purple, cold plus hot is balance) and his purpose is not to bind dragons but to reject them, to lead his people out of the Long Night darkness and into the Dawn.  He is the Sword of the Morning reborn, a meshing together of elements into the purple of the original proto-Daynes.

 

When you see a labyrinth, ask yourself what it is made of?  Dark underground passageways and greasy black stone?  Then it is a relic connected to the Bloodstone Emperor, Lovecraftian horror, blood sacrifice, unnatural hybridity and enslavement.  A maze made of flowers and hedges, such as the one that surrounds Highgarden, is more likely to be an homage to Ariadne-Amethyst Empress, whose purple eyed descendants ( the first ones born before she was murdered) led her people through the ages and from the GE of the Dawn through a labyrinth of lands and dangers to a place of freedom and safety in Westeros.  The first Nymeria if you will.  

 

Ha!  I don't blame you if you don't follow this.  I'm putting it all into an essay with some back-up evidence that will make things clearer.

[hiemal]

There are a couple of things you need to dispense with, I think, before you can come to an analysis.  One is Azor Ahai.  That is a corrupted prophecy.  It comes from Asshai and anything that comes from Asshai is going to seem like salvation but lead to destruction and enslavement.  Yi Ti, Leng, the Jhogos Nai, the Five Forts, the Gray Wastes and Asshai are a mirror image of Westeros, and at the same time provide one family, the Kings of the First Men, the Daynes, with a history.  The Valyrians are an offshoot of the Daynes who have embraced blood and fire and are therefore more in line with the Bloodstone Emperor.  That is Dany's fate if she continues to embrace her dragon self - she will think she is saving but she will be destroying.  That is Tyrion as Targ's fate too - his dream of two heads, one laughing as he destroys Jaime, the other weeping - which will he choose, his humanity or his dragon self?  Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire, if there is an Amethyst Empress reborn, it's him, born of a cold blue flower and a red hot dragon (red plus blue is purple, cold plus hot is balance) and his purpose is not to bind dragons but to reject them, to lead his people out of the Long Night darkness and into the Dawn.  He is the Sword of the Morning reborn, a meshing together of elements into the purple of the original proto-Daynes.

 

When you see a labyrinth, ask yourself what it is made of?  Dark underground passageways and greasy black stone?  Then it is a relic connected to the Bloodstone Emperor, Lovecraftian horror, blood sacrifice, unnatural hybridity and enslavement.  A maze made of flowers and hedges, such as the one that surrounds Highgarden, is more likely to be an homage to Ariadne-Amethyst Empress, whose purple eyed descendants ( the first ones born before she was murdered) led her people through the ages and from the GE of the Dawn through a labyrinth of lands and dangers to a place of freedom and safety in Westeros.  The first Nymeria if you will.  

 

Ha!  I don't blame you if you don't follow this.  I'm putting it all into an essay with some back-up evidence that will make things clearer.

Fascinating! I love the idea of mirrorred continents- this has so much potential.

Looking forward to the big write-up.

:)