[SPOILERS] The Fifth Season by NK Jemisin

[First of My Name]

At least that's how I read it.  I could be wrong that she alerts the Guardians to their presence (and/or the existence of the island), but that was how it seemed to me.

One thing I am still unable to really reconcile is what the Stone Eaters really are.  My hunch is that they were the ancient's (i.e. the ones who actually destroyed the moon) first attempt to control the Seasons.  Second attempt was probably the obelisks.  Orogene's were possibly the third.  Last, the Guardians were made to subjugate orogenes, not that I really understood too well the whole socket part.

I think a clue on the socket is how it's said that Father Earth speaking to them (the Guardians) is a common delusion.  To me that said, something is talking to them, just it being Father Earth is a delusion.  What is it that is talking to them then?  That I haven't puzzled out yet.

That's how I took it too. She was recognized as an orogene in Allia and the Guardians traced her back to the island.

i'd like to help you there but I only finished it two days ago, and don't have a clue how it all fits together

[Maia]

 He knows full well that is the Syen's inability to simply live on the island, her boredom that draws her back to Allia, is what sows the seeds that end with her having to kill Coru.  If she could have just been content with the life she had there, the Guardians would probably never have found them and Coru would still be alive.  In other words, it's her fault Coru had to be killed.  She killed him long before that final confrontation.  She killed him by being unable to live the safe life on the island.

Yes. OTOH, that volcano at Allia was a tinderbox threatening the islands as well as a good part of the continent, and  Alabaster praised Syenite for dealing with it... and also didn't realize the significance of her catching a glimpse of a Guardian there. Not to  mention that _he_ could use the obelisks safely and between the 2 of them, they  could have fought the strike force off and escaped, if the Stoneater hadn't chosen to drag him away. So, _she_ was the most responsible for  Coru's death, really. Particularly since it is completely unclear why she conveniently saved both of them before at Allia... but now chose to only take Alabaster, instead of all 3 of them, or, say,  him and the kid. What was the deal with that, I wonder?  But people in pain aren't rational, I guess...

 

 

I think a clue on the socket is how it's said that Father Earth speaking to them (the Guardians) is a common delusion.  To me that said, something is talking to them, just it being Father Earth is a delusion.  What is it that is talking to them then?  That I haven't puzzled out yet.

What indeed? I can't wait to find more about the Guardians. They are quite tragic, too, if one stops to think about it. I have an impression that their implants are  scavenged from material of the socket, for some reason. Maybe the obelisks have some kind of intelligence? And wasn't there some hint that the Stoneeaters may have been created to control the obelisks? Somehow...

[.H.]

 

Yes. OTOH, that volcano at Allia was a tinderbox threatening the islands as well as a good part of the continent, and  Alabaster praised Syenite for dealing with it... and also didn't realize the significance of her catching a glimpse of a Guardian there. Not to  mention that _he_ could use the obelisks safely and between the 2 of them, they  could have fought the strike force off and escaped, if the Stoneater hadn't chosen to drag him away. So, _she_ was the most responsible for  Coru's death, really. Particularly since it is completely unclear why she conveniently saved both of them before at Allia... but now chose to only take Alabaster, instead of all 3 of them, or, say,  him and the kid. What was the deal with that, I wonder?  But people in pain aren't rational, I guess...

Yeah, that's true.  The whole involvement of the Stone-Eaters is confusing.  What Antimony is after, as opposed to what Hoa is after is rather confusing, since we really don't know.  However, let me get back to that after.

 

What indeed? I can't wait to find more about the Guardians. They are quite tragic, too, if one stops to think about it. I have an impression that their implants are  scavenged from material of the socket, for some reason. Maybe the obelisks have some kind of intelligence? And wasn't there some hint that the Stoneeaters may have been created to control the obelisks? Somehow...

Well, here's some wild speculation that came to me while reading your post:

First, it is my speculation that the Socket is related to the making of the obelisks.

Following this, it's my guess that Stone-Eaters were either made (recall the Tablet, "they are folly made flesh.") to control, or help control, the Seasons.  The obelisks were either made to enhance or focus their power, or perhaps control them?  Having written that, I am thinking of the parallel between the node maintainers, trapped in a device forced to attempt to control the earth.  Perhaps the Stone-Eaters were trapped into the obelisks for the same purpose?

Drawing it further, perhaps the Orogenes evolve naturally later on and eventually realize they can tap into the obelisks to use as weapons.  So, they (I don't know who they are) shut the obelisks down, since they probably can't secure them.  Time passes, seasons get worse (since there were no obelisks to help) and eventually, much later, the Sanze take over the socket and find out how to make Guardians.  Guardians follow the same pattern of old, instead of the Ancients (that's what I'll call them for now) enslaving Stone-Eaters, it's them enslaving the Orogenes.

Maybe if I keep throwing out enough nonsense, I might get one thing right!

[Maia]

On 7.1.2016 at 7:37 PM, .H. said:

 What Antimony is after, as opposed to what Hoa is after is rather confusing, since we really don't know.  However, let me get back to that after.

Well, Alabaster appears to be gradually turning into stone and Antimony seems to be slowly eating his transformed parts? How or why I have no idea. Also, she seemed to be on board with his mad, mass-murdering plan, although unlike him she didn't believe that humanity would be actually eradicated as a result. I can't wait to find out more, it was a cruel cliff to leave us hanging on ;).

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Following this, it's my guess that Stone-Eaters were either made (recall the Tablet, "they are folly made flesh.") to control, or help control, the Seasons. 

The seismic activity, anyway, as not all Seasons have to do with it. IIRC, a couple were due to pandemics and uncontrolled fungal growth and I don't see the Stoneaters being helpful against those. BTW, that's another thing that's slightly bothering me - the Seasons don't happen nearly often enough for seasonal laws and social structures to be upheld in the interim or animals to be adapted to such a degree that they change from herbivores into carnivores. IIRC, there were more than 6 centuries between some of them and the last one pre-series had been 300 or so years previously. I guess that  local disasters happen more or less constantly  somewhere, but that wouldn't be enough for such universal adaptation, neither cultural and particularly not the biological one. Well, maybe there were some lengthy Dark Ages prior to recorded history when  the Seasons happened much  more often? And the earliest millenia of the latter are myths. 

 

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The obelisks were either made to enhance or focus their power, or perhaps control them?  Having written that, I am thinking of the parallel between the node maintainers, trapped in a device forced to attempt to control the earth.  Perhaps the Stone-Eaters were trapped into the obelisks for the same purpose?

I am not sure. In fact, do we know that the obelisks predate the Stoneeaters? It could be the other way round. They are both attempts to control seismic activity on a grand scale, it seems, and both failed for reasons which are unclear. Or, actually, the obelisks may be something more, because they clearly can be used for other things too. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that creation of the obelisks was what led to destruction of the moon in the first place. The grand hubris that led to the apocalypse. It wouldn't surprise me if they have a kind of somewhat aware AI too, and it is what talks to the Guardians through their implants.

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Drawing it further, perhaps the Orogenes evolve naturally later on and eventually realize they can tap into the obelisks to use as weapons. 

I thought that the orogenes who could do that ware very rare and a somewhat new-ish development. But we shall see. So many mysteries! The next book can't come out soon enough!

Oh, I have read on Jemisin's blog that Essun was supposed to be unsympathetic... I didn't find her so, even though she did  terrible things in her grief and anger. OTOH I also couldn't agree with the notion, which the author is clearly espousing, that being afraid of and/or demanding more from orogenes than normals is irrational and prejudiced. There are obvious parallels with slavery and racism in the US, of course, but the fact that orogenes really _are_ extremely dangerous and can have immense destructive power can't be ignored or brushed aside, IMHO.

[Deedles]

I found Essun, in all her guises, to be extremely sympathetic. I wouldn't make all the choices she does /did, but they were understandable. I agree also that those with great power should be subject to greater....scrutiny. I don't think more can or should be demanded from them, but if they use the power granted to them, then it should be subject to strict oversight. 

[First of My Name]

I'm a bit surprised I didn't figure out that Alabaster and Antimony are the two unnamed characters in the prologue, who set off the Season. Seems so obvious in hindsight, but that made only made discovering it more fun.

I found Essun, in all her guises, to be extremely sympathetic. I wouldn't make all the choices she does /did, but they were understandable. I agree also that those with great power should be subject to greater....scrutiny. I don't think more can or should be demanded from them, but if they use the power granted to them, then it should be subject to strict oversight. 

Agreed, but not in the way that the Guardians watch over them.

I agree about Essun.

[Derbena]

Does anybody have an idea about what this "salt-split tongue" mean? (Tablet two, The incomplete thruth)

I would like to translate this part to my mother tongue and I don't have a clue.

Thanks in advance.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Just finished the book and it was excellent, can't wait til the next installment. I will post my thoughts later, but had one bit to add to the discussion here already.

H.,

First, it is my speculation that the Socket is related to the making of the obelisks.

No need to specspeculate, Tonkee/Binof confirms that indeed is what the sockets were used for. Don't have time to quote, but when Syenite co fonts her in the qurtz comm, she reveals this and it's why she followed her.

[.H.]

37 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Just finished the book and it was excellent, can't wait til the next installment. I will post my thoughts later, but had one bit to add to the discussion here already.

H.,

 

No need to specspeculate, Tonkee/Binof confirms that indeed is what the sockets were used for. Don't have time to quote, but when Syenite co fonts her in the qurtz comm, she reveals this and it's why she followed her.

Yeah, you are right, no doubt this was in my mind and I simply forgot it, thinking it was my own speculation:

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“It’s where they built them.” Binof-Tonkee comes forward quickly, her face alight. “The socket in the Fulcrum. That’s where the obelisks come from. And it’s also where everything went wrong.”

Good catch.  I told you I thought you'd like the book though.  Won't be too long a wait for the next one, which is nice.

On 1/26/2016 at 11:29 AM, Derbena said:

Does anybody have an idea about what this "salt-split tongue" mean? (Tablet two, The incomplete thruth)

I would like to translate this part to my mother tongue and I don't have a clue.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, but I have no idea.  My best guess would be be simply translate it literally.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

With regards to how the stone-eaters, orogenes and the obelisks all fit together, I found this passage from Hoa's pov interesting.

But not alone—for that is when I found her, you see. The moment of the obelisk’s pulse was the moment in which her presence sang across the world: a promise, a demand, an invitation too enticing to resist. Many of us converged on her then, but I am the one who found her first. I fought off the others and trailed her, watched her, guarded her. I was glad when she found the little town called Tirimo, and comfort if not happiness, for a time.

I introduced myself to her eventually, finally, ten years later, as she left Tirimo. It’s not the way we usually do these things, of course; it is not the relationship with her kind that we normally seek. But she is—was—special. You were, are, special.

I told her that I was called Hoa. It is as good a name as any.

This is how it began. Listen. Learn. This is how the world changed.[/quote]

So from this and the fact that there was a stone-eater in one suggests a relationship between the two exist. I do believe that that orogene can control them for better or worse. In the end Alabaster tells Syenite that he wants her to finish what he started- destroying the world. And we know that Hoa seems to have his own agenda, which I believe is to save it. At the very least, Hoa doesn't seem to like any of the other stone-eaters they come across.

[unJon]

Holy abrupt ending, Batman!

Finished two days ago. Really loved it. I caught on early that the three POVs were the same person and thought it was a really clever way to present the story. I did not suspect the narrator or the "you" POV and interludes was Hoa until the end. I think the Hoa narrator structure implies a fourth iteration of our protagonist where Hoa is explaining the backstory to her. Maybe she gets amnesia during a future transformation?

That the moon crashing into Earth I caught in the first interlude where Hoa focuses on what was missing from the sky. No mention of the moon stood out.

I think the Rock Eaters are some sort of computer memory storage system. That was my take from Hoa explaining how his red crystals were him and also IIRC a good medium for memory storage. So I speculate that Antimony is incorporating Alabaster into her own memories by eating him as she turns him into rock. Maybe the Rock Eaters are all attracted to Orogenes that can tap the Obelisks because they want to incorporate that power into themselves by eating the person? Explains why they zoned in on Synene when she used the obelisk to fight the Guardians and Hoa had to fight a bunch off.

Guardians are super creepy. Like evil cyborgs with the anti Orogene implants.

The prologue says that the obelisks once had different names. Wonder what that name was. The place that the obelisks were created at Fulcrum is called the socket. What do you put in a socket? It's the endpoint in communication between two machines. The machine at Fulcrum is still active if buggy. Drives the Guardians crazy every now and then. Clearly looking for communion still. If you plug an obelisk into the socket I wonder what communication will happen next?

Lots of cool mysteries to speculate over. Will come back later with more thoughts. Wanted to get these out.

[.H.]

Some good analysis there unJon.  I kind of disagree about the Stone Eaters being computers, since they seem to each have different personalities (and goals).  I guess that is kind of splitting hairs though.  Not as if I have a better idea though, I think they were "made" somehow, sometime in the past, as a way to help control the Seasons (or whatever seismic events predated them) post moon-destruction.

My guess would be that the Ancients destroyed the moon.  Then, to try to stop the cataclysms they made Stone Eaters and they didn't fix it, maybe they weren't strong enough.  So, they made the Obelisks to focus their power.  Something went wrong though, perhaps the fact that the Orogenes evolved and for whatever reason could interface with the Obelisks and turn them into weapons meant that the whole network needed to be shut down.

Your observation about the Socket is probably true, at least in some sense.  The way the "spikes" are described as poking out into it though kind of says to me that they aren't (weren't) an original part of the design.  In other words, I think the Socket is where the Obelisks were made, but now it has been corrupted (invaded?  repurposed?) by something else, something that speaks to the Guardians.  Thinking this through though, perhaps, whatever "speaks" to them (lets just call it Father Earth (even though that's wrong)) is a remnant of that deadciv that made the Obelisk.  Then again, what Tonkee tells us is that the Socket is where "everything went wrong" so maybe it is an outside agent.

In the end, I feel like there is a parallel between Stone Eaters and Orogenes, brought out by the seeming parallel between Nodes and Obelisks.  It could be that the Obelisks were the "original" Nodes, so perhaps the Obelisks being drawn to those Orogenes that can use them is the contained Stone Eaters' attempt at freeing themselves.  Father Earth in the socket tried to bind them even tighter, or deactivated them to stop them freeing themselves and later realized the Orogenes needed to be controlled to prevent, well, essentially what we see happening in the book.  The Sanze stumble (not really, maybe Emperor Verishe knew, or figured out, or perhaps even was called there) upon the Socket and realize that they can, in a way, recreate what the Ancients had made, with Nodes and Orogenes rather than Obelisks and Stone Eaters.

I don't know, it's an awful lot of assumption, since we are still at relatively low-information.  I am hoping the next book continues to give us insight into the back-story.

[Dalfiatach]

Just finished this in two sittings, enjoyed it a lot. Rampant unfounded speculation follows

Like others have said I made the connection between Damaya and Syenite fairly early, and so had suspicions Essun was the same woman too but was never entirely 100% sure until fairly late on.

I also got unJon's notion that the Stone Eaters are some sort of silicon-based advanced AI, explaining their alleged extreme age, inscrutable nature, and maybe reason for taking on humanoid appearance in homage to their creators. Maybe they blew up the moon in an attempt to destroy humanity Terminator-style, maybe the moon just blew itself up and they were the first attempt at a fix. The obelisks may date from the same period or a subsequent attempt at stabilising the planet. Either way the idea that it was the origenes blew up the moon sounds like Sanzed/Guardian propaganda....

I got the impression we are probably hundreds of thousands of years from the original calamity and thus probably hundreds of Seasons, we're repeatedly told there are the remnants of dozens of quite distinct (advanced!) deadcivs littering the landscape. There could be dozens of periods between Seasons where the remnants of humanity never got much past stone age and would have left little trace. Antimoney seems certain some humans will survive which would make sense if she's seen all this hundreds of times before. Also repeated global catastrophes could accelerate evolution among the survivors of these repeated genetic bottlenecks. So if we're talking a looooong time since the Moon was destroyed, it's quite plausible origenes have evolved naturally.

But if it really is only a few thousand years, origenes may have been created too, by the same - or a different! - deadciv.

The Socket seems to have been invaded/corrupted by another AI which may just be damaged/insane or which might actually be out to eliminate humanity once and for all. I liked the idea upthread that the Guardian's implants are fashioned from bits of the entity corrupting the Socket, nice catch! If the Socket entity wants to wipe out humanity it would explain the insane glee the Guardians show when horribly mutilating/killing people...and then the entire Guardian/Fulcrum setup could be a long-term plan to develop enough trained origenes to be able to cause the kind of civilisation-ending trauma that Alabaster does - we're told a few times feral origenes usually can't do much and tend to end up killing themselves by accident because they can't control their power. But if over a few thousand years you slowly develop a few hundred highly-trained origenes all capable of connecting to and triggering the destructive power of the obelisks, all at once...game over.

If Alabaster was just deranged with abuse, pain and grief and simply wanting to end the whole horrible cruel system, why would he seek out Essun and mention the moon? He's already basically destroyed the Sanzed Empire and created a centuries-long Season, not much chance any remnants of the current civilisation could possibly survive that intact. That's why Essun suddenly realises he's quite, quite sane - there are much bigger plots afoot.

[HexMachina]

The first chapter (pre-copyediting) is available to read on Jemisin's website/blog. I've read it, and I'm left both happy and disappointed. Happy because it was a very good opening (not quite as tear-wrenching as the Fifth Season, but still sad), disappointed because now i need to wait another month to read the rest

[Lily Valley]

On 1/26/2016 at 11:29 AM, Derbena said:

Does anybody have an idea about what this "salt-split tongue" mean? (Tablet two, The incomplete thruth)

I would like to translate this part to my mother tongue and I don't have a clue.

Thanks in advance.

I took this as a reference to a tongue that is literally cracked from salt.  

Oh, I did find the main character completely unsympathetic.  I couldn't stand her and she completely infuriated me more than once.  Glad that was intentional.  It didn't make her story less compelling, if anything it made it more so.  Not often that you want to knock a character into next week and still can't put the book down.

[HexMachina]

Not finished the Obelisk Gate yet but it's been great so far, and has made me rethink a lot about the characters, reevaluate opinions etc. For example (spoilers cover about the first 30% of the book) 

Essun seems much worse as a person now we have Nassun's POV. Jija still comes across as awful, but I don't exactly hate him. It's complex. And Schaffa baffles me the most because I have no idea how to feel about him. Interesting stuff about the Guardians though, with their incredible age and....something which Schaffa tapped into after Meov. I wonder if the thing in his neck is maybe a shard of an Obelisk and he has to feed it with the power which allows Orogeny? Are the Obelisks sentient I wonder? What do the Stone Eaters want? Does Hoa intend on killing Essun? So many questions

[polishgenius]

Finished Obelisk Gate. Excellent.

Full spoilers to the end:

Couple of minor annoyances to get out the way: first, the resolution to the invasion plot was a bit anti-climactic. While yes, it did serve a character purpose- more on that in a sec- the fact that Jemisin spent the whole book slow-building the siege but ended it in a couple of pages meant there was some hanging tension left to dribble away. Even more notable because she also spent time Chekhoving the boil-bugs solution but literally seconds after she implemented it it proved to be completely unnecessary as she learned she could have wasted them all much more quickly without it.
The other is that Nessun's plot is a little unconnected and meandering. That's part of the fact that this is very much a story in three acts over three books and it's clearly building up to the big finale, but it feels a little loose.

But those are minor things in an otherwise enthralling novel.
Anyway, on to the stuff...

Holy shit, Essun is a villain! The early reveal of how cruel she'd been to Nessun from her perspective was smartly played, showing that even though she had very good reasons she was causing damage as much as she saved. But throughout the book she kept on having good reasons and kept on having good reasons and at the end, well, straight up genocide without a thought.

I am beginning to be very suspicious of Hoa. Apart from his increasingly creepy interludes and that while Essun thinks he's her moral chain I think it was in large part his influence that led her to go off the rails, I think that Gray Man and Steel are possibly the same stone eater and that would mean that his goal, as stated to Nessun (which he doesn't seem to have reason to lie about), and the goal of Essun-via-Alabaster, are the same. And that means he just doesn't know that if he wants to use the Obelisk Gate to catch the moon, he should just let Essun be.
And whether Gray Man is Steel or not, we do seem to have a plot building where Essun and Nessun will be set against each other despite having the same aim. That would fit in with the emotional brutality of this series so far...
Although it is possible that Steel wants to smash the Moon into the Earth, rather than return it to orbit. His wording is ambiguous.

I did realise that the eating-of-transformed-flesh is somehow a part of turning the afflicted into a stone eater quite early, so I wasn't surprised when Alabaster showed up. I wonder if it's relevant that he is the same material he was named after or of it's just plot convenience, but I can't see it being too significant.

I'm still rather confused as to what Father Earth actually is, but I'm increasingly open to the possibility that it is exactly what it says on the tin. I did find it quite funny that the secret name of the mysterious force, being gently built as something pseudo-scientific up till then, proved to be 'magic'.

[unJon]

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Finished Obelisk Gate. Excellent.

Full spoilers to the end:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Couple of minor annoyances to get out the way: first, the resolution to the invasion plot was a bit anti-climactic. While yes, it did serve a character purpose- more on that in a sec- the fact that Jemisin spent the whole book slow-building the siege but ended it in a couple of pages meant there was some hanging tension left to dribble away. Even more notable because she also spent time Chekhoving the boil-bugs solution but literally seconds after she implemented it it proved to be completely unnecessary as she learned she could have wasted them all much more quickly without it.
The other is that Nessun's plot is a little unconnected and meandering. That's part of the fact that this is very much a story in three acts over three books and it's clearly building up to the big finale, but it feels a little loose.

But those are minor things in an otherwise enthralling novel.
Anyway, on to the stuff...

Holy shit, Essun is a villain! The early reveal of how cruel she'd been to Nessun from her perspective was smartly played, showing that even though she had very good reasons she was causing damage as much as she saved. But throughout the book she kept on having good reasons and kept on having good reasons and at the end, well, straight up genocide without a thought.

I am beginning to be very suspicious of Hoa. Apart from his increasingly creepy interludes and that while Essun thinks he's her moral chain I think it was in large part his influence that led her to go off the rails, I think that Gray Man and Steel are possibly the same stone eater and that would mean that his goal, as stated to Nessun (which he doesn't seem to have reason to lie about), and the goal of Essun-via-Alabaster, are the same. And that means he just doesn't know that if he wants to use the Obelisk Gate to catch the moon, he should just let Essun be.
And whether Gray Man is Steel or not, we do seem to have a plot building where Essun and Nessun will be set against each other despite having the same aim. That would fit in with the emotional brutality of this series so far...
Although it is possible that Steel wants to smash the Moon into the Earth, rather than return it to orbit. His wording is ambiguous.

I did realise that the eating-of-transformed-flesh is somehow a part of turning the afflicted into a stone eater quite early, so I wasn't surprised when Alabaster showed up. I wonder if it's relevant that he is the same material he was named after or of it's just plot convenience, but I can't see it being too significant.

I'm still rather confused as to what Father Earth actually is, but I'm increasingly open to the possibility that it is exactly what it says on the tin. I did find it quite funny that the secret name of the mysterious force, being gently built as something pseudo-scientific up till then, proved to be 'magic'.

 

Hmm. Should probably just start a new spoiler thread but want to say in response to this.

I don't think the Steel talk at the end is ambiguous. He wants the Moon to impact the earth and kill all humans. 

“It will be a terrible thing,” Steel says softly, nearly in her ear because he’s moved closer to her. “It will end the Seasons. It will end every season. And yet… what you’re feeling right now, you need never feel again. No one will ever suffer again.”

presumably the Stone Eaters will be able to survive. 

I think also Hoa and Steel know enough about each other to know they don't have the same goal. Unless Hoa's POV is being very unreliable to the reader. 

Finally, did you read the preview chapter for the final book? Big reveal about Hoa

[polishgenius]

I haven't read the chapter, no. Where can I find it? If it's in the back, it's not in the Kobo ebook.

[unJon]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I haven't read the chapter, no. Where can I find it? If it's in the back, it's not in the Kobo ebook.

Weird. It's in back of the Kindle ebook.