Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rippounet

Let's talk about lemongate

Recommended Posts

So the last thread about it was closed, because of too many jokes and mockeries I assume. It's a pity, because the topic is interesting. I'd like to attempt a civilized conversation on this.

 

We now know that there is a lemongate. This was not a mistake by Martin. You can find an SSM here: http://imgur.com/EXN26tk        (this SSM was confirmed to be legitimate)

To recap: There are several hints in the books [spoiler] including the released Winds of Winter chapter(s). [/spoiler] that lemon trees do not grow in Braavos (or other cold-ish places), which means that Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door (with a lemon tree in Braavos) create a discrepancy. This discrepancy, in turn, suggests there may be a mystery behind Dany's memories.

I'd like to review what this might mean. The point is not to argue about the theories themselves (to avoid any unpleasantness), but to list and develop them (as a wiki entry would).

 

1) The "conservative" theory.

Explanation: Trees grow in the gardens of the mighty in Braavos. The lemon tree means that Dany grew up in the house of someone powerful, or that Darry had the means to get a very expensive house.

Pros: Dany being in Braavos is actually stated in the text, and she remembers sailing to Braavos later in her life and thus likely knows what Braavos looks like. Also, IRL, lemons can grow in rather cold climates.

Implications: None that I can think of.

Cons: Although there were initially no obstacles to this theory (that's why it's conservative), the fact that Martin apparently admitted that lemon trees not growing in Braavos because of the climate is an intentional discrepancy (as per the SSM) seems to imply that there may be a difference between trees (which can grow in Braavos) and lemon trees (which can not). The text and Martin's SSM both suggest that lemon trees are harder to take care of in the world of I&F than in real life.

 

1a) The "Sealord theory" : a development of the above.

Explanation: The Palace of the Sealord has gardens and many exotic animals. The map we have shows the gardens being very green, and there seems to be greenhouses.

Pros: That a Sealord witnessed the marriage pact between Arianne Martell and Viserys proves that a Sealord was somehow involved with the Targaryens while they were in exile. Also, the Sealord already has a velociraptor, so a mere lemon tree is hardly out of the realm of possibility.

Implications: The Braavosi are much more involved in Westorosi politics than one might think and will likely play a role in the coming wars.

Cons: The fact that the Targlings had their money (and jewels) stolen by servants after Darry's death makes it unlikely those were Palace servants. Also, since they were eventually "put out," one must speculate that the Sealord died and was replaced by a less Targaryen-friendly Sealord -or something close.

 

1b) The "Link with Dorne" theory.

Explanation: The lemon tree is an early hint that the Dornish seek a Targaryen restoration.

Pros: Oberyn Martell traveled to Braavos and could have brought a small lemon tree as a gift.

Implications: None, since we now know of the marriage pact.

Cons: The hints about the lemon trees have continued way after the reader learned that the Dornish were Targaryen loyalists.

 

2) The "House with the Red Door is not in Braavos" theory.

Explanation: There have been too many hints that lemon trees do not grow in Braavos to mean anything else.

Pros: The text suggests a mystery, and Martin confirmed the discrepancy was intentional.

Implications: Dany's memories are confused, and she puts the House with the Red Door in the wrong place.

Cons: Martin's words do not necessarily allow us to go that far (Ran said this was his take on them). Also, a different free city hardly changes anything for the plot, while any other place has other issues (see 2x).

 

2a) The "House with the Red Door is in Tyrosh" theory.

Explanation: Dany is associated with Tyrosh and Tyroshi a few times in the books.

Pros: The text clearly states Dany has a Tyroshi accent and likes a specific Tyroshi pastry ; an Archon of Tyrosh is involved with both Illyrio and the Dornish.

Implications: Hard to find. It might mean Darry traveled on his own to Braavos to seal the marriage pact though, or that the Sealord traveled to Tyrosh.

Cons: Few clues and very little actual implications.

 

2b) The "House with the Red Door originally was in Tyrosh" theory.

Explanation: A first version of the story apparently had Dany in Tyrosh, not Braavos. [See: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131505-evidence-that-the-lemon-tree-was-not-originally-in-braavos/

Pros: This would explain Dany's Tyroshi accent and her knowledge of the bazaar (see: GOT, Daenerys VI).

Implications: None.

Cons: This means Martin made a mistake, although clues about lemon trees not growing in Braavos continue throughout the books [spoiler] even up to a WoW chapter. See: Mercy chapter. [/spoiler]

 

2c) The "House with the Red Door is in Dorne" theory.

Explanation: Dorne is repeatedly associated with lemons in the text.

Pros: The Dornish have clearly been trying to plan a Targaryen restoration.

Implications: either that i) Dany and Viserys were separated as children or ii) that Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen.

Cons: Viserys clearly didn't know about the Dornish support, and thus was never in Dorne himself, yet Dany remembers him with her in the house.

 

2x) Dany makes a mistake when remembering Viserys being with her in the House with the Red Door.

Explanation: To allow for the possibility of the House with the Red Door to be anywhere else than a free city (like Dorne), the presence of Viserys becomes a problem.

Pros: Dany was young enough to believe what people told her. Her memory of Viserys could be false.

Implications: Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen and was only brought to Viserys as a very young girl.

Cons: This requires interpreting the words in Dany's first chapter in a convenient way. Also, this separates Darry and Viserys, which is unlikely, as Viserys was Darry's king.

 

3) The memory of the lemon tree is false (but the House with the Red Door is in Braavos)

Explanation: The lemon tree itself may not actually be important (and may not even exist) and is just a clue to realize that Dany's memories cannot be trusted.

Pros: Martin did say he wanted to "establish that the memories of [his] viewpoint characters are not infallible."

Implications: If all Dany's memories are potentially unreliable, various elements from Dany's memories may prove to be false.

Cons: It's hard to find an element that could be interesting enough to be proven false save for the location of the House with the Red Door.

 

3a) The lemon tree is symbolical.

Explanation: The lemon tree doesn't exist, but symbolizes bitterness and disapointment.

Pros: The symbolism is obvious and well-used in literature.

Implications: This could either mean that i) Dany's fondness for her childhood and idealization of her lost innocence will only lead to more bitterness or that ii) Dany's childhood was not as pleasant as she remembers.

Cons: The books mention actual lemons and lemon trees several times, and we haven't seen any purely symbolical ones yet.

 

 

Voilà. I've tried to be as objective as possible. If I've made any mistakes, please point them out. I'd like to edit the OP regularly with contributions and see where this leads us exactly. Please refrain from saying things that would shut the thread down. Thanks to Yolkboy (who I understand found this first) and Victarion Chainbreaker for providing the SSM which allows this discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice list, well done.

 

2a was new to me, but now I've read it, and your other lemongate post. Now I think it's just as likely as Dorne, maybe even more.

The possibility that if 3 is correct Dany may not be Dany is also new to me. I'm shocked, amazed, and I fear the possibility.

 

Thank you for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once proposed a "volcano theory".  It holds that the lemon-tree is significant because it is a clue that Braavos has a greenhouse heated by volcanism like that of Winterfell, and this volcanism is also the source of the constant clouds and mist that hang over Braavos, and this will be significant either because Braavos is a haven to firewyrms or dragons, or because it foreshadows the destruction of Braavos in a gigantic eruption.  I suppose this could be considered a variant of the "sealord's palace" theory.

 

But I don't actually believe this theory, and I'm not sure anyone does.  I actually subscribe to #3, and probably to #3(a)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the support everyone, I'm glad you like this.

 

Should not 3) be considered a subset of 2)?

Indeed. I changed this to make it clearer.

 

 

I once proposed a "volcano theory".  It holds that the lemon-tree is significant because it is a clue that Braavos has a greenhouse heated by volcanism like that of Winterfell, and this volcanism is also the source of the constant clouds and mist that hang over Braavos, and this will be significant either because Braavos is a haven to firewyrms or dragons, or because it foreshadows the destruction of Braavos in a gigantic eruption.  I suppose this could be considered a variant of the "sealord's palace" theory.

 

But I don't actually believe this theory, and I'm not sure anyone does.  I actually subscribe to #3, and probably to #3(a)

Now 2b) and 2x). :)

 

I give you points for creativity with this volcano theory. :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets hope we can have an intelligent discussion about it this time. Lemongate as you show means different things to different people. I am still trying to figure out what it means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the last thread about it was closed, because of too many jokes and mockeries I assume. It's a pity, because the topic is interesting. I'd like to attempt a civilized conversation on this.
 
We now know that there is a lemongate. This was not a mistake by Martin. There are several hints that lemon trees do not grow easily in Braavos, and thus that Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door may hide a mystery. I'd like to review what this might mean. The point is not to argue about the theories themselves (to avoid any unpleasantness), but to list and develop them (as a wiki entry would).
 
1) The "conservative" theory.
Explanation: Trees grow in the houses of the mighty in Braavos. The lemon tree means that Dany grew up in the house of someone powerful.
Pros: Dany being in Braavos is actually stated in the text, and she remembers sailing to Braavos later in her life and thus likely knows what Braavos looks like.
Implications: None that I can think of.
Cons: No obstacle to this theory (that's why it's conservative).
 
1a) The "Sealord theory" : a development of the above.
Explanation: The Palace of the Sealord has gardens and many exotic animals. The map we have shows the gardens being very green, and there seems to be greenhouses.
Pros: That a Sealord witnessed the marriage pact between Arianne Martell and Viserys proves that a Sealord was somehow involved with the Targaryens while they were in exile.
Implications: The Braavosi are much more involved in Westorosi politics than one might think and will likely play a role in the coming wars.
Cons: The fact that the Targlings were kicked out after Darry's death means one must speculate that the Sealord died and was replaced by a less Targaryen-friendly Sealord -or something close.
 
2) The "The House with the Red Door is not in Braavos" theory.
Explanation: There have been too many hints that lemon trees do not grow in Braavos to mean anything else.
Pros: The text suggests a mystery, and Martin confirmed the discrepancy was intentional.
Implications: Dany's memories are confused, and she puts the House with the Red Door in the wrong place.
Cons: Martin's words do not necessarily allow us to go that far. Also, a different free city hardly changes anything for the plot, while any other place has other issues (see 2x).
 
2a) The "The house with the Red Door is in Tyrosh" theory.
Explanation: Dany is associated with Tyrosh and Tyroshi a few times in the books.
Pros: The text clearly states Dany has a Tyroshi accent and likes a specific Tyroshi pastry ; an Archon of Tyrosh is involved with both Illyrio and the Dornish.
[Also, the original version of the story actually had Dany in Tyrosh: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131505-evidence-that-the-lemon-tree-was-not-originally-in-braavos/ ]
Implications: Hard to find. It might mean Darry traveled on his own to Braavos to seal the marriage pact though, or that the Sealord traveled to Tyrosh.
Cons: Few clues and very little actual implications.
 
2b) The "House with the Red Door is in Dorne" theory.
Explanation: Dorne is repeatedly associated with lemons in the text.
Pros: The Dornish have clearly been trying to plan a Targaryen restoration.
Implications: either that i) Dany and Viserys were separated as children or ii) that Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen.
Cons: Viserys clearly didn't know about the Dornish support, and thus was never in Dorne himself, yet Dany remembers him with her in the house.
 
2x) Dany makes a mistake when remembering Viserys being with her in the House with the Red Door.
Explanation: to allow for the possibility of the House with the Red Door to be anywhere else than a free city (like Dorne), the presence of Viserys becomes a problem.
Pros: Dany was young enough to believe what people told her.
Implications: Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen and was only brought to Viserys as a very young girl.
Cons: Dany clearly remembers Viserys in the House with the Red Door. Also, this separates Darry and Viserys, which is unlikely, as Viserys was Darry's king.
 
3) Dany's memories are unreliable.
Explanation: The lemon tree itself may not actually be important (and may not even exist), what matters is that Dany's older memories cannot be trusted.
Pros: Martin did say he wanted to "establish that the memories of [his] viewpoint characters are not infallible."
Implications: An element from Dany's memories may prove to be false.
Cons: It's hard to find an element that could be interesting enough to be proven false.
 
3a) The lemon tree is symbolical.
Explanation: The lemon tree doesn't exist, but symbolizes bitterness and disapointment.
Pros: The symbolism is obvious and well-used in literature.
Implications: This could either mean that i) Dany's fondness for her childhood and idealization of her lost innocence will only lead to more bitterness or that ii) Dany's childhood was not as pleasant as she remembers.
Cons: The books mention actual lemons and lemon trees several times, and we haven't seen any purely symbolical ones yet.
 
 
Voilà. I've tried to be as objective as possible. If I've made any mistakes, please point them out. I'd like to edit the OP regularly with contributions and see where this leads us exactly. Please refrain from saying things that would shut the thread down. Thanks to Yolkboy (who I understand found this first) and Victarion_chainbreaker for providing the SSM which allows this discussion.

"Targlings." I'm diggin' it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there is something more about that infamous Lemon Tree.

 

No, that doesn't mean Dany was brought to Westeros by aliens whose secret base is in Dorne and they inseminated Rhaella while the real Dany was lost in the mail.

 

Lemon Trees are not native to Braavos.

There is a FREAKING VELOCIRAPTOR in Braavos, so, there is at least ONE PERSON in Braavos who is able to take care of exotic things despite weather conditions and such: someone rich.

Willem Darry had a house for Dany and Viserys, as far as Dany remembers. It has a red door. This house could either be something Darry himself bought, something that was given to them by someone rich, or someone rich's house.

The one place lemon trees seem to come from is Dorne. Dorne also enter the Braavos storyline by Oberyn signing a marriage pact with the Sealord.

 

Wait... the Sealord is rich.

Syrio says the Sealord has exotic animals in his Palace...

 

omg... 1 + 1 is... 2!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there is something more about that infamous Lemon Tree.

No, that doesn't mean Dany was brought to Westeros by aliens whose secret base is in Dorne and they inseminated Rhaella while the real Dany was lost in the mail.

Lemon Trees are not native to Braavos.

There is a FREAKING VELOCIRAPTOR in Braavos, so, there is at least ONE PERSON in Braavos who is able to take care of exotic things despite weather conditions and such: someone rich.

Willem Darry had a house for Dany and Viserys, as far as Dany remembers. It has a red door. This house could either be something Darry himself bought, something that was given to them by someone rich, or someone rich's house.

The one place lemon trees seem to come from is Dorne. Dorne also enter the Braavos storyline by Oberyn signing a marriage pact with the Sealord.

Wait... the Sealord is rich.

Syrio says the Sealord has exotic animals in his Palace...

omg... 1 + 1 is... 2!!

 

Due to the extreme coolness of this fact, which was partially confirmed by Martin, I have added mention of Blue in theory 1a).

 

However, please refrain from mocking other theories.
 

Edit: are you suggesting that the lemon tree was brought from Dorne by Oberyn, or that the lemon tree symbolizes the alliance with Dorne? This seems an interesting sub-theory (one I'd already read somewhere). I'll see how to add that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems to me that both 2 (especially 2x) and 3 could be considered variants of "Dany's memories are unreliable". It's just that 2 holds that Dany's belief or "memory" (if you want to call it that) that she lived in Braavos is unreliable. Whereas the basic idea behind 3 is (I think) that the memory of the lemon tree itself is false or unreliable.

Perhaps 3 could be reworded to make that clearer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that both 2 (especially 2x) and 3 could be considered variants of "Dany's memories are unreliable". It's just that 2 holds that Dany's belief or "memory" (if you want to call it that) that she lived in Braavos is unreliable. Whereas the basic idea behind 3 is (I think) that the memory of the lemon tree itself is false or unreliable.

Perhaps 3 could be reworded to make that clearer?

Indeed.

I gave it a try, but it's getting late/early here and my brain has gotten slow. Will come back to this later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: are you suggesting that the lemon tree was brought from Dorne by Oberyn, or that the lemon tree symbolizes the alliance with Dorne? This seems an interesting sub-theory (one I'd already read somewhere). I'll see how to add that...

 

Rather than suggesting it, I'm quite sure that's the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How could I forget that! Thanks to you, Lord Wraith.

 

No problem. Glad to help.  :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany doesn't remember Viserys at the house with the red door. In fact, she specifically remember that the house with the red door wasn't his home:

 

Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

-AGoT Daenarys

 

The major con for 1A is the servants stealing the Targaryen family jewels after Darry died. There is no way the servants could have done this no matter the loyalty of the Sealord. The explanation that Darry died of his sickness in the tiny window of time between one Sealord being dispossessed and the next stepping up is too big of a coincidence to be credible.

 

and a pro for 2B why Dany would have grown up in Dorne:

 

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes.Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him,he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter.

-ADwD Barristan 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany doesn't remember Viserys at the house with the red door. In fact, she specifically remember that the house with the red door wasn't his home:

 

-AGoT Daenarys

 

The major con for 1A is the servants stealing the Targaryen family jewels after Darry died. There is no way the servants could have done this no matter the loyalty of the Sealord. The explanation that Darry died of his sickness in the tiny window of time between one Sealord being dispossessed and the next stepping up is too big of a coincidence to be credible.

 

and a pro for 2B why Dany would have grown up in Dorne:

 

-ADwD Barristan 

 

Where does the Sealord die theory come from? I have never seen any evidence that a Sealord died in that time period.

 

One more thing to consider.  Why would Oberyn try raise the banners for a king they didn't have? Just saying.  When you want to make a king or queen you probably want to have them on hand to crown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that Dany's memories are a big mashup of events. The house she lived with Darry, the lemon tree and the red door are three different things.

The red door is probably evidence that her link to R'hllor/Red Temples started very early.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×