Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Curled Finger

Merging Story Lines

Recommended Posts

There are several threads discussing GRRMs intentions to whittle TWOW POVs from 19 (or 22 depending on whether or not you believe Quentin lives, Varys qualifies as a POV and Jon's POV) to 13. I submit that not only will characters die horrible deaths, story lines will merge by necessity.    For example, there are 3 POVs in Mereen.   If Barristan and Victarion die or band together with Tyrion the entire story can be told from a single POV.  Not to mention Mereen will have its own Mod Squad.  As much as you want Cersei to be choked, she's the only one who can tell the tale of King's Landing.   Arya needs to go somewhere.  Characters like Jamie & Brienne, Davos, Arienne, Theon & Asha, Jon Con and Dany are on the move and likely to end up somewhere.  Characters like Sansa, Bran, Sam and Cersei are stationary (at the moment) as their stories still need to play out where they are.   Could they hold their own POVs without merging?   Other characters without POVs are lingering--LSH, The Hound, Benjen, Tormund, Great Jon Umber, stinking Walder Frey, Black Fish and Maege Mormont...where are they?   What are they doing and who can tell their story best in Winds?  Will Victarion have to go back to the Iron Islands because Aeron retired and someone has to tell the nutty Greyjoy family tale?   Will Sam take a fast boat back to The Wall or kick Euron's butt right there in Old Town?   Will Brienne get the chance to stick it to Sam's dad?   You get the idea.   

 

I have a feeling that LSH and The Hound both play large in Arya's arc and therefore see the need to get her to The Riverlands so she can get busy.  Lots of other folks feel Arya will go to The Wall with Justin Massey to get down to real business.   Maybe you see something totally different, like Arya being the perfect valonquar for our favorite sweet sister?  I'm getting better at visualizing an actual end to some of the story lines in doing this.   Sadly, I'm still trying to come up with something that will let me keep all the characters I love and despise to the very end.  Match 'em up.   Can't wait to see what you come up with...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I reckon that Ser Barristan will die during the Battle of Meereen or shortly after, maybe Victarion as well. Either way Tyrion will become the main POV in the city, with Victarion occasionally popping up as well if he lives. Tyrion will meet up with Daenerys sometime after he has cleaned up Meereen and she has finished things with the Dothraki, and then they will head west. They might split up i suppose. Anyway, I believe both Tyrion and Dany will be alive and heading west during the next book. They might even arrive in Westeros. Victarion may be with them, or he may not, but either way he will not have nearly as many chapters devoted to him.

 

In the North I reckon that Melisandre might have a chapter ebfore JOn comes back as a POV. Davos will reunite with Stannis after having brough back Rickon from Skagos, and Theon and Asha will be relegated to smaller POV roles if they even survive the Battle of Winterfell. Theon might be executed before a weirwood tree and Asha might die in battle... or they might surive and continue as POV's. I don't know. Bran will not have many chapters but will give us a lot of exposition from his cave Beyond the Wall.

 

Samwell will continue as our POV in the Reach and probably won't die anytime soon, and Aeron will have a couple of chapters in the Iron Islands, perhaps intertwined with and Asha or Theon chapter if they are still alive. The Damphair may be dead by the end of the book.

 

Arianne and Connington's storylines will merge, with Arianne becoming the main POV and Connington likely dying. Their storyline will eventually make it's way to King's Landing I bet, which means we might se some mingling with Cersei's storyline, particualrily if there's a battle for the city. That said, I believe Cersei will flee back to Casterly Rock if the city falls, so the character probably never meet.

 

I believe that Jaime and Brienne both have parts to play and so won't die anytime soon, but I also believe that their story will be intertwined and that they won't have as many chapters as other characters. Jaime will probably have more chapters.

 

Sansa will be doing her own thing. Don't know about Arya, but I suppose she'll make her way back to Westeros soon. Perhaps she'll go to the Wall?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Very nice it looks like you've given this some thought. I am curious why you see Jamie as taking over the POV for he and Brienne? Any idea which way they will head after their Riverland adventure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Brienne will speak up for Jaime upon meeting LSH.  Meanwhile, Cersei's demise will happen.  Jaime learns of this and decides to help Brienne find Sansa.  They decide to go to the Eyrie and give some more perspective on Sansa, and it would make for a very interesting conflict.  Alayne is finally happy again in her new identity so from her perspective Brienne and Jaime are threats.  I can see Brienne being thick enough to not see that Alayne is Sansa (she is always looking for an auburn haired girl).  Jaime would know immediately but maybe he would play dumb just to humor himself.    

 

I think what would be ideal is if Arya is sent to kill one of the POVs.  I think the most interesting would be Dany (making readers have very conflicted feelings).  Maybe at the least she will be hired to spy on Dany (so much of her training is being a very good listener) and accompany her to Westeros.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  I think the most interesting would be Dany (making readers have very conflicted feelings).  Maybe at the least she will be hired to spy on Dany (so much of her training is being a very good listener) and accompany her to Westeros.  

 

That's it right there.  

 

You've made a good case for the next step and the step after that for Jamie & Brienne.   These are logical steps, too.   So everyone gets to The Vale and stuff happens and then they go...?   As I've said I'm not great at visualizing the ENDGAME here.   I'm not even certain who the good and bad guys are or which side I should be rooting for.   I don't hate Dany and I don't swoon over Jon.   They're both really interesting stories, but I think it's clear it's coming down to Ice and Fire adversarially.   The Riverlands are key to me at least as middle field.    You have all these vows and motives at play in the middle.   I think Brienne is a really truly good guy here. For the record, throw Davos and Sam in with her then you have my good guy trinity.   She needs to be on a side I think.  Jamie has to face his changes and make a real stand, too.   As the characters join up they need to get to one side or the other.  So you get Bri & Jamie & Sansa (maybe not if it turns out the way you see it) going where?   Will they go south or north?  I believe Brienne should fight with the North, but she's from the south.   Her partner is heavily vested in the south.   Sansa probably should stay right where she is but what if she hears she has a living brother?   C'mon, even she would want to go see Rickon, right?

 

I love the idea of Arya going to Dany as I think that could mess things up better than any scenario I can come up with.    The other idea I loathe but could turn things completely sideways is LSH giving Jon the Kiss of Life.  Yeah, either of those would do the trick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Barristan and Victarion are both warriors. So they can merge into one POV, while Tyrion has the wits, so i like to see the dealings in Meereen from a politics POV and a warrior POV. That is better off course. I don't think Victarion has to go back to the Iron Isles, since if Aeron will not be a POV for long Asha/Theon can merge into one POV and go to the Iron Isles, while Davos takes the POV role at Stannis side. Jaime/Brienne. I reckon one of them can die, but if they don't they can merge. If the dealings with Darkstar are over and Hotah survives (Which i think he will), he will be send by Doran to protect Arianne, and then both POVS can Merge. Or if Cerseis trial is going wrong and she is either sentenced to death/banished to Casterley Rock, Hotah can be sent to KL to protect the backs of Tyene and lady Nym and provide us with the KL POV. But Hotah dying (I will hate it, but he has the greatest chance of dying since he is just a minor) or merging with Arianne, seems more likely. Mel will be the POV at the wall, also if Stannis arrives, since i think Davos will stay by Rickons side to teach the boy and being the POV at WF. Alayne, Arya, Samwell are stand-alone POVs at the moment. Jon Con, however, can merge with Arianne, but i doubt that, since i think he will get POVs, because he is going to decide to help the Reach getting rid of the Ironborn, because he realises that if he marches to KL and the Ironborn take the Reach, the Ironborn can bite them in the butt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i feel as though we will see some sort of cataclysm in some part of the world that causes MAJOR loss of life and that makes the major POVs realize, "sh*t just got real"

 

this cataclysm will get the gears moving and hopefully take focus away from the IT, and direct it more towards the big picture.

 

in terms of who ends up where, looks like everyone above seems to have a good bite on it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope we lose both the Selmy and Victarion POVs quickly. Selmy has told us what we need to know. Victarion didn't have much to say that was interesting. Maybe the only thing worthwhile was picking up Moqorro. Given the show's direction, looks like Tyrion's POV is going to dominate Mereen in WoW. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's so easy to forget how important Dorne is. Doran is a very smart man and needs to be watched. Thanks for bringing them back to the front of consideration nickdt. I dig Areo Hotah and hope to see lots of badassery from him in Winds. Speaking of dig, "digupherbones" may be my new favorite screen name--never change that. Much to discuss with new input. At work just wanted to thank you for your responses & look forward to more musings. Lots to mull over above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict we will see the following 13 Povs, with **s next to those which have been confirmed, listed in order of certainty.

 

Arya**

Sansa**

Victarion**

Tyrion**

Baristan**

Arianne**

Damp-Hair**

Theon**

Dany

Bran

Jon Snow / Ghost

Cersei

Davos or Asha [Sorry, Can't decide]

 

Of the above, I expect the "big six" (Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion) to continue for the time being, and probably survive the next book.

 

Of the rest, Victarion and Cersei are most likely to be eliminated through death.  Others (Davos, Asha, Theon, Arianne, Baristan, Damp-Hair) may be eliminated through merging plotlines, without necessarily dying.  But nobody is safe.

 

Moving on to other former POVs:

 

Mel and Hotah and Jon Con were POVs introduced for some very limited specific purpose.  I believe they have already served that purpose, and their POVs will be dropped without any implication for the fate of the characters themselves.  

 

Jaime and Brienne's POVs have already ceased in that we the reader learn they have gone missing through the eyes and ears of other characters, who do not know what has happened to them. I believe will this will continue until the plot-lines merge sufficiently for other POVs  to learn their fates.  We won't find out until other POVs find out.  This may or may not have implications for their fate -- recall that Cat's POV also ceased when she became undead.

 

Samwell the drowned crow was last seen being lured to rickety bridge of the Isle of Ravens by a faceless man, with presumably sinister intent.  I believe that's the last we will see of Sam through his own POV.  When we next see Sam, it will be through the POV of other characters upon his union or re-union with them.  These other POVs will not be in a position to be certain to his identity, in a world of facless men, glamors and dopplegangers.  I think GRRM intends us readers to be in the same boat.  We will find out if Sam really survived, or got replaced by a faceless man, when the other POV characters do.

 

Quentyn's POV has ceased, regardless of whether he survived.  Even if he survived, GRRM means us to THINK he is dead, meaning we see him through the POV of others.  If he is alive, we will find this out when others do, and be surprised when they are.  If he is dead he is dead.  Which makes a Quentyn POV unnecessary either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, I expect that through process of elimination ( death) and merging story lines we will see a lot of POV's eliminated.

My guesses for the major ones are that:
Tyrion-Selmy-Dany-Victarion will whittle down to Tyrion-Dany

Varys-Brienne-Jaime-Cercei will whittle down to Jaime-Varys

Jon-Mel-Theon-Davos will whittle down to Davos and Theon ( for now)

Euron, Sansa, and Samwell will probably endure the entire book independently.

Not sure what will happen with Aegon or Arienne Martell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are all perfectly logical progressions.   Not much wishfull thinking here.  

 

Varys-Brienne-Jaime-Cercei will whittle down to Jaime-Varys

Jon-Mel-Theon-Davos will whittle down to Davos and Theon ( for now)

Euron, Sansa, and Samwell will probably endure the entire book independently.

Not sure what will happen with Aegon or Arienne Martell.

 

Ah ha!   Someone else does think Varys is a POV!   Thanks Logicsbane, no one ever agrees about that.   Wish you would elaborate on just how you see these 4 ending up together because that is a fascinating group you have there.   And the unlikely team of Davos and Theon?   Brilliant!   Tell me how you got there.  

 

 

 

 

Mel and Hotah and Jon Con were POVs introduced for some very limited specific purpose.  I believe they have already served that purpose, and their POVs will be dropped without any implication for the fate of the characters themselves.  

 

 

CP, I've read lots of your stuff and appreciate your no nonsense and analytical approach to things.  As nickdt illustrated, Dorne is still a player and Areo Hotah is the only one there.  Do you see Dorne becoming insignificant?   If Mel doesn't have a POV who will tell us what's happening at the Wall?  


 

 

I hope we lose both the Selmy and Victarion POVs quickly. Selmy has told us what we need to know. Victarion didn't have much to say that was interesting. Maybe the only thing worthwhile was picking up Moqorro. Given the show's direction, looks like Tyrion's POV is going to dominate Mereen in WoW. 

 

I hope Barristan the Bold can shed some light on that year or so Lyanna disappeared in. Besides, Selmy is the last KG left over from the Targs and it would be very interesting to see him and Jamie together later in the story. I have a new appreciation for Mocorro from another thread the other day.   It was suggested he become a dragon rider and that just struck my fancy to no end.   Still I agree these characters seemed like more or less filler, having such narrow purposes to serve, but you have to admit that those Red Priests are an interesting bunch.   And Marwin is on his way to meet the whole bunch of them.  If they have to go I hope they get one more chapter we haven't red yet--just to clean things up for me.

 

Please if you have a little time, I would really enjoy hearing how you see the mergers happening.   This is great.   Thanks so much!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I was re reading from the top and forgot to ask from the beginning:   Where will Davos take Rickon?  The Wall?  Winterfell?  Dragon Stone? Storm's End?  Or will Davos return alone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As nickdt illustrated, Dorne is still a player and Areo Hotah is the only one there. Do you see Dorne becoming insignificant?

Dorne is not becoming insigificant. It is leaving Dorne. We've got one military expedition heading for the Reach; another heading for Kings Landing, and we've got Arianne off to join forces with Griff Jr., perhaps to make a bid for the iron throne with Doran's backing.

We're clearly not meant to know what Doran is REALLY planning. That's why we had a Hotah POV and not a Doran POV. We will find out what Doran is up to when Cersei finds out, or when Arianne finds out, or when Dany finds out (Dany IS coming to Westeros, right?). In the meantime, Hotah has presumably given us all the advance hints we need, and probably does not need to give us any more. When Cersei gets taken by surprise, we are already in a position to understand the background a bit better than she will.

If Mel doesn't have a POV who will tell us what's happening at the Wall?

Jon/Ghost is there. Bran/raven is potentially there. Davos might stop there after he leaves Skagos. Stannis may return there with Theon. And news from the Wall can reach other locations via raven. Without knowing what will happen, how can I say these options won't be sufficient?

Of course, if you think Jon is really dead, that leaves an extra slot open. Feel free to cross him off my list and replace him with Mel.

Nobody knows where Damp-Hair went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Samwell the drowned crow was last seen being lured to rickety bridge of the Isle of Ravens by a faceless man, with presumably sinister intent.  I believe that's the last we will see of Sam through his own POV.  When we next see Sam, it will be through the POV of other characters upon his union or re-union with them.  These other POVs will not be in a position to be certain to his identity, in a world of facless men, glamors and dopplegangers.  I think GRRM intends us readers to be in the same boat.  We will find out if Sam really survived, or got replaced by a faceless man, when the other POV characters do.

 

 

 

Interesting. Did I miss the rickety bridge scene or are you drawing a parallel to Balon Greyjoy's death? 

 

Regardless, I don't see how this works. If the Faceless man kills Sam, won't they miss Pate? 

 

I suspect "Pate" will want to hear everything Sam has to say for a while. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM has said that people like Littlefinger and Varys will never be POV's because they know far to much. Just pointing that out.

 

Of course you're right, but I was hoping since we got so much exposure from Varys in the epilogue perhaps GRRM changed his mind.   Funny, even with all Varys said and did, you still can't fully grasp all he's up to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This statement about Sam being lured to the rickety bridge is a parallel to Balon, as you suggest, Erasmus.   We all know Pate isn't what he seems to be, nor is Alleras and Alleras is told to keep an eye on Sam by Marwin, another one we know too little about.   Can't help but refer to Arya taking the Ugly Girl's face and having the memories.    I'm thinking it's likely that the FM who took Pate's face may very well have taken his character as an opportunist thief. (Like that's a step down from hired assassin.)  Sam is definitely not in a safe place.  It never occurred to me an FM would want Sam's face, but it could happen.  There was a lot of speculation that Jaqen H'gar was enroute to The Wall when he ran into Arya.   It will be an interesting reveal when this FM sheds his persona.   I hope it's not to gobble up Sam's.   This is one of those illuminating turns.   I always imagined Sam would be by Jon's side fighting The Others when the time came.    But I never could quite piece it together how he would do it.   It takes more time than Sam has to become a full maester who would be appointed to The Wall.   I'm open to anything you've got on this one.   . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Morning Wyman. I heard a really cool version of the battle of Mereen on Radio Westeros. Lady Gwen played anchor while Yolk Boy, Brynden Bfish and I think Aziz from History of Westeros played reporters on the front lines. It's well worth the listen if you haven't yet heard it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×