Merging Story Lines

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, The Sword of the Evening said:

To be honest I combined Sword of the Morning and Shade of the Evening and thought it sounded pretty cool.

I agree that Aeron is technically MIA, but I assume he is still somewhere on the Iron Islands (here's to hoping we get his unreleased chapter with the "seriously twisted stuff" before Season 6 premier, although I doubt we get any new chapters).

I would love it if GRRM was able to get it down to 3 major plot points by the end of TWOW, but at his current pace I don't know how that happens. I could easily see him needing an 8th book to complete the series.

Regarding Theon/Asha, there has been a lot of foreshadowing to the fact that Theon wasn't present for the kingsmoot and therefore he could return and claim his right as king, but I think Stannis has to execute him in front of the Heart Tree in order to appease the North. Bran could possibly intervene, if you read Theon's sample chapter for TWOW, you will see the beginning of this plotline.

Sorry for the delayed response, I don't get on here as much as I used to. I think I have read most of the bigger theories by now, but still check back here and there.

I think using a list like the one I made is a good reference point for going into TWOW, but many of the characters will move. George does need to start combining story lines as he starts to wind his story down.

It is a cool name, Sword of the Evening.   I was hoping you found more info on the Daynes and Dawn than I've been able to track down.   That Sword of the Evening only got a sentence in AWOIAF that I could find, but it must mean something...then again, I'm a sword nut.   If you had a chance to read the last few posts you know that I see a whole bunch of characters being recruited to wield VS against the Others.   That takes a chunk of the characters completely off the table for the other major story lines.    And I hope against hope that he hasn't changed his vision for any of them like he's changed Jorah Mormont's story.   He claims he hasn't so we will just have to wait and see.    Truth is you need really bad guys to make a hero interesting and he likes to kill off bad guys as well as good guys.   I expect all the characters will have to get down tot he business of following their path to destiny in Winds.   It seems likely that all the kingdoms within the realm will have to choose a side, such as Dorne and The Vale, who have managed to stay out of turmoil to this point.   The RL is ravaged by all the conflicts and you can bet that what ever political power is left there will emerge.   The II will need allies to continue their conquests.  Simply ridding the overall story of Lannisters in power goes a long way to getting the story on track.   It would be a shame to stretch this long long series out beyond 7 books.    Still I see your sentiments repeated all over the place.    I'm glad you were able to check in and appreciate your comments.  

[The Sword of the Evening]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It is a cool name, Sword of the Evening.   I was hoping you found more info on the Daynes and Dawn than I've been able to track down.   That Sword of the Evening only got a sentence in AWOIAF that I could find, but it must mean something...then again, I'm a sword nut.   If you had a chance to read the last few posts you know that I see a whole bunch of characters being recruited to wield VS against the Others.   That takes a chunk of the characters completely off the table for the other major story lines.    And I hope against hope that he hasn't changed his vision for any of them like he's changed Jorah Mormont's story.   He claims he hasn't so we will just have to wait and see.    Truth is you need really bad guys to make a hero interesting and he likes to kill off bad guys as well as good guys.   I expect all the characters will have to get down tot he business of following their path to destiny in Winds.   It seems likely that all the kingdoms within the realm will have to choose a side, such as Dorne and The Vale, who have managed to stay out of turmoil to this point.   The RL is ravaged by all the conflicts and you can bet that what ever political power is left there will emerge.   The II will need allies to continue their conquests.  Simply ridding the overall story of Lannisters in power goes a long way to getting the story on track.   It would be a shame to stretch this long long series out beyond 7 books.    Still I see your sentiments repeated all over the place.    I'm glad you were able to check in and appreciate your comments.  

Thanks for the kind words. Personally I find everything with house Dayne fascinating. I can't  wait to read more about them. Some of my favorite theories involve Arthur Dayne/Darkstar/Dawn/The Others/The Starks, etc. 

I agree that it would be a shame if the series does go longer, but back when it was a trilogy the 2nd book was supposed to be about Dany's invasion/journey to Westeros and the 3rd book about the fight against the Others. Obviously some storylines have changed, but Dany still hasn't made it to Westeros and we are 5 books in.

[bemused]

On 3/7/2016 at 7:51 PM, Curled Finger said:

It is always such a pleasure to read you, bemused.   A constant education.   Link me up to Daario so I can read all about it?

I'm flattered that you would ask. Here's the link..

I waited until I had Part II up. It's a slow-builder, because so many clues are so subtle  and much of the more noticeable stuff will be in Parts III and IV as I work toward my conclusions. I hope you enjoy it. ... Now I want to breathe a minute and catch up on this thread.

 

[dornishdame]

On 3/9/2016 at 5:15 AM, Curled Finger said:

And you may be absolutely right as there is that question of what Jon's Targ name would have been since he was to represent Visenya.  Stay with me a minute on this...I propose everything that is wrong in Westeros began with the Doom of Valyria and worsened with whatever that catastrophe at Hardhome was.  Whatever magic bound the Others weakened or broke entirely and they've been quietly reasserting themselves since.  It seems to me that the Valyrians had some understanding of what these catastrophes would cause and consciously went about providing some counter measure to the damage with the advent of the Valyrian Sword.  I'm not even sure the noble houses who originally had the swords bought them.   We are told they are priceless, but that doesn't tell anyone what they paid for them.   And these are interesting houses that possessed them, Targs, Mormonts, Hightowers, Starks, Lannisters, Tarlys, Roxtons, Corbrays, Royces, Harlaws, Reynes and the like.  "A mountain of gold" describes their value, not the price paid.  There has been an effort on GRRM's part to ensure that 12 swords remained in play in the beginning and at the end of his game in Westeros.   Not devices like Dawn, but cold, hard VS.  I am of the mind that the VS is transient and won't be needed after they fulfill their purpose any more than the heroes will be needed.   This is why I studiously avoid even giving Jon a sword.  Oh he's on the list of heroes, but I expect him to live which sort of excludes him from the party.   I'm not saying he won't have DS at some point and that it may be vastly important for the time he has it.   I just don't expect him to keep it or use it for what it's meant to do.  

So much to catch up on! Will try and focus on a couple of things for now and come back later if I have time. 

The idea that the events in Valyria and Hardhome contributed to the current situation is interesting - do you think there is a connection between the two, and that it may relate to something specific? Dragon related, perhaps? Of course, it sounds from the passage below more like volcanic activity than anything else:

Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. (Jon VIII in Dance)

If we contrast that with what we are told of the Doom of Valyria:

To this day, no one knows what caused the Doom. Most say that it was a natural cataclysm—a catastrophic explosion caused by the eruption of all Fourteen Flames together. Some septons, less wise, claim that the Valyrians brought the disaster on themselves for their promiscuous belief in a hundred gods and more, and in their godlessness they delved too deep and unleashed the fires of the Seven hells on the Freehold. A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable. (The World of Ice and Fire)

The Freehold of Valyria and its empire were destroyed by the Doom, but the shattered peninsula remains. Strange tales are told of it today, and of the demons that haunt the Smoking Sea where the Fourteen Flames once stood. In fact, the road that joins Volantis to Slaver's Bay has become known as the "demon road," and is best avoided by all sensible travelers. And men who have dared the Smoking Sea do not return, as Volantis learned during the Century of Blood when a fleet it sent to claim the peninsula vanished. There are queer rumors of men living still among the ruins of Valyria and its neighboring cities of Oros and Tyria. Yet others dispute this, saying that the Doom still holds Valyria in its grip.(The World of Ice and Fire)

Hmmm......it does sound a lot like explosions.  I find the mention of Barth interesting - he is usually right but perhaps his idea of sorcery faltering and some sort of explosion are not contradictory.  After all, if the failure of these spells was a sign of magic starting to leave the world (the commencement of the process that saw the death of the last Targaryen dragon in Westeros) then it could be that the spells controlled volcanic activity (in that it could be used to the advantage of the Valyrians rather than as nature intended) and they had started to lose their potency. After all, Hallyne. the pyromancer that Tyrion visits in Clash, tells us that they have noted changes in their work:

Hallyne mopped at his pale brow with the sleeve of his black-and-scarlet robe. "We have been working very hard, my lord Hand, hmmm."

"That would doubtless explain why you are making so much more of the substance than before." Smiling, Tyrion fixed the pyromancer with his mismatched stare. "Though it does raise the question of why you did not begin working hard until now."

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also"—the alchemist shifted uncomfortably—"certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be . . ."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here by now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells; how splendid. What of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

"Sorry to disappoint you, but I've seen no dragons. I have noticed the King's Justice lurking about, however. Should any of these fruits you're selling me turn out to be filled with anything but wildfire, you'll be seeing him as well." (Tyrion XI in Clash)

So, the pyromancers are finding their work easier following the birth of Daenerys's dragons; dragons she seems to have been able to birth because magic is coming back into the world.  If we reverse that and consider magic going out of the world. then perhaps that is connected with Doom of Valyria and whatever happened at Hardhome.  Hardhome does sound a bit like Pompeii, and the Doom of Valyria could potentially have been brought about by the reduced potency of spells that controlled Volcanic activity. We could also bring in the new Long Night - perhaps the return of the Others is simply part of the process of magic returning to the world in the same way that the birth of Daenerys's dragons was (though obviously their return preceded that of the dragons). Just some random thoughts! 

As for the VS swords, I am just about to start a re-read in the next few days in preparation for the start of season six (just using that as an excuse for a re-read, really!) so I will be on the lookout for mentions of them, and also of the re-manning of the castles at the Wall. I also want to re-read The World of Ice and Fire and see what that brings up. 

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, dornishdame said:

So much to catch up on! Will try and focus on a couple of things for now and come back later if I have time. 

the events in Valyria and Hardhome contributThe idea that ed to the current situation is interesting - do you think there is a connection between the two, and that it may relate to something specific? Dragon related, perhaps? Of course, it sounds from the passage below more like volcanic activity than anything else:     Was trying to bold your comments & screwed it up.   Sorry!  Yes I do think both events are relative and contributory.   I'm not so sure it's as dragon related as geologically related or as you say, volcanic activity.    This is major earth shattering stuff and like my ability to format existing text, it is both suspicious and likely a cause if not an effect of the weird axis Planetos spins upon. 

Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.   Hell fire!   But what or who carried of Hardhome's population?   This event transcends mere devastation.   This place was irrevocably scarred.   what is that shrieking?   Was something other or even connected to the Others unleashed in this devastation?   And yes, I see I had my catastrophes backward.   Hardhome 1st, then Valyria.   I really will find myself a good timeline and keep it on my desktop someday.  

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. (Jon VIII in Dance)   So vegetation grew back and presumably, the fauna as well.   It is the noise and suspicious ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood.   Ah, blood sacrifice permeates even the wastelands of Westeros.  

If we contrast that with what we are told of the Doom of Valyria:

To this day, no one knows what caused the Doom. Most say that it was a natural cataclysm—a catastrophic explosion caused by the eruption of all Fourteen Flames together. Some septons, less wise, claim that the Valyrians brought the disaster on themselves for their promiscuous belief in a hundred gods and more, and in their godlessness they delved too deep and unleashed the fires of the Seven hells on the Freehold. A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable. (The World of Ice and Fire)  Is this like diverted attention?   The point of the Valyrian's magic was to hold the 14 Flames in check? 

The Freehold of Valyria and its empire were destroyed by the Doom, but the shattered peninsula remains. Strange tales are told of it today, and of the demons that haunt the Smoking Sea where the Fourteen Flames once stood. In fact, the road that joins Volantis to Slaver's Bay has become known as the "demon road," and is best avoided by all sensible travelers. And men who have dared the Smoking Sea do not return, as Volantis learned during the Century of Blood when a fleet it sent to claim the peninsula vanished. There are queer rumors of men living still among the ruins of Valyria and its neighboring cities of Oros and Tyria. Yet others dispute this, saying that the Doom still holds Valyria in its grip.(The World of Ice and Fire)    I really think we are done a disservice by not having a lot more information about this place.    I noticed the only thing Hardhome has on this ruin is the ghouls and shrieking caves.    Demons haunt the Smoking Sea...what demon could exist under water?  

Hmmm......it does sound a lot like explosions.  I find the mention of Barth interesting - he is usually right but perhaps his idea of sorcery faltering and some sort of explosion are not contradictory.  After all, if the failure of these spells was a sign of magic starting to leave the world (the commencement of the process that saw the death of the last Targaryen dragon in Westeros) then it could be that the spells controlled volcanic activity (in that it could be used to the advantage of the Valyrians rather than as nature intended) and they had started to lose their potency. After all, Hallyne. the pyromancer that Tyrion visits in Clash, tells us that they have noted changes in their work:

Hallyne mopped at his pale brow with the sleeve of his black-and-scarlet robe. "We have been working very hard, my lord Hand, hmmm."

"That would doubtless explain why you are making so much more of the substance than before." Smiling, Tyrion fixed the pyromancer with his mismatched stare. "Though it does raise the question of why you did not begin working hard until now."

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also"—the alchemist shifted uncomfortably—"certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be . . ."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here by now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells; how splendid. What of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

"Sorry to disappoint you, but I've seen no dragons. I have noticed the King's Justice lurking about, however. Should any of these fruits you're selling me turn out to be filled with anything but wildfire, you'll be seeing him as well." (Tyrion XI in Clash)  I should have read on.   Sorry I jumped the gun above.   Seems like we are on the right track.    The Valyrians were supposed to keep the 14 Flames in check with the magic.  

So, the pyromancers are finding their work easier following the birth of Daenerys's dragons; dragons she seems to have been able to birth because magic is coming back into the world.  If we reverse that and consider magic going out of the world. then perhaps that is connected with Doom of Valyria and whatever happened at Hardhome.  Hardhome does sound a bit like Pompeii, and the Doom of Valyria could potentially have been brought about by the reduced potency of spells that controlled Volcanic activity. We could also bring in the new Long Night - perhaps the return of the Others is simply part of the process of magic returning to the world in the same way that the birth of Daenerys's dragons was (though obviously their return preceded that of the dragons). Just some random thoughts!     With you 100% on this idea, Dame.

As for the VS swords, I am just about to start a re-read in the next few days in preparation for the start of season six (just using that as an excuse for a re-read, really!) so I will be on the lookout for mentions of them, and also of the re-manning of the castles at the Wall. I also want to re-read The World of Ice and Fire and see what that brings up. 

Dame I missed you!   I answered just a few things above and only managed to screw up your very first sentence.  A thousand pardons!  

I've read a lot about various types of magic ie, ice, water, fire, etc., still I can't help but think there is only 1 source of all magic.  I would be interested in any thoughts you have on this.   I'm leaning towards an organic magic, inherent to Planetos that perhaps allows Planetos to thrive or not depending on what the Others really turn out to be.  We need to understand what the 1st pact was all about, too.  I'm still not done with my reread of ADWD.  I decided to start all over again, but when is that ever a bad idea?    I know you will enjoy your reread and look forward to any gems you happen to notice.    I made another spreadsheet with the castles and their inhabitants too as I am still fascinated by this configuration--it's got to mean something!   Good luck with the swords, too.   I may have been convinced of another hero as I was given a pretty good explaination for it.  Look forward to hearing all about where your reread takes you.    

[dornishdame]

On 3/24/2016 at 2:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

 I'm not so sure it's as dragon related as geologically related or as you say, volcanic activity.    This is major earth shattering stuff and like my ability to format existing text, it is both suspicious and likely a cause if not an effect of the weird axis Planetos spins upon. 

On reflection, I'm tending towards volcanic/geological activity. It is interesting to consider, also, that two magical places in Westeros - Winterfell and Dragonstone - seem to have volcanic/geological tendencies.  

On 3/24/2016 at 2:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

Hell fire!   But what or who carried of Hardhome's population?   This event transcends mere devastation.   This place was irrevocably scarred.   what is that shrieking?   Was something other or even connected to the Others unleashed in this devastation?   And yes, I see I had my catastrophes backward.   Hardhome 1st, then Valyria.   I really will find myself a good timeline and keep it on my desktop someday.    

We are back I think to volcanic activity.  It would make sense for them to have burned, and for the stories of them being taken away as slaves or food are just that - stories.  Again, Hardhome sounds, to me, so like Pompeii (although it seems to not have been so badly affected that it was impossible to resettle the place). For some reason, it makes sense to me that Hardhome was first - it seems to have happened purely as a result of volcanic/geological activity whereas the Doom of Valyria was related as much to the decline of magic as anything else. 

On 3/24/2016 at 2:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

I've read a lot about various types of magic ie, ice, water, fire, etc., still I can't help but think there is only 1 source of all magic.  I would be interested in any thoughts you have on this.   I'm leaning towards an organic magic, inherent to Planetos that perhaps allows Planetos to thrive or not depending on what the Others really turn out to be.  We need to understand what the 1st pact was all about, too.  I'm still not done with my reread of ADWD.  I decided to start all over again, but when is that ever a bad idea?    I know you will enjoy your reread and look forward to any gems you happen to notice.    I made another spreadsheet with the castles and their inhabitants too as I am still fascinated by this configuration--it's got to mean something!   Good luck with the swords, too.   I may have been convinced of another hero as I was given a pretty good explaination for it.  Look forward to hearing all about where your reread takes you.    

I know GRRM has said that he doesn't like to set down hard and fast rules about magic and how it works.  As I result, I tend to think of it being evolutionary and prone to mutation.  We will need to wait for Winds to find out more, I think. Since the return of magic we witness in Thrones, it has grown more and more powerful. 

Interested to see who you have potentially identified as another hero! 

Note: I have started my re-read today!! Perhaps it is the discussions we have had on Valyrian steel, but I found myself thinking more and more on the sword that the Other Ser Waymar fights has. We shall see where this re-read takes me, in any case. I am waiting for Jon's  NW chapters to take notes on the castles (but, of course, that will not be until I reach Dance). I am also hoping that I may pick up on some more ideas on how story lines may merge in Winds. 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

On reflection, I'm tending towards volcanic/geological activity. It is interesting to consider, also, that two magical places in Westeros - Winterfell and Dragonstone - seem to have volcanic/geological tendencies.  

We are back I think to volcanic activity.  It would make sense for them to have burned, and for the stories of them being taken away as slaves or food are just that - stories.  Again, Hardhome sounds, to me, so like Pompeii (although it seems to not have been so badly affected that it was impossible to resettle the place). For some reason, it makes sense to me that Hardhome was first - it seems to have happened purely as a result of volcanic/geological activity whereas the Doom of Valyria was related as much to the decline of magic as anything else. 

I know GRRM has said that he doesn't like to set down hard and fast rules about magic and how it works.  As I result, I tend to think of it being evolutionary and prone to mutation.  We will need to wait for Winds to find out more, I think. Since the return of magic we witness in Thrones, it has grown more and more powerful. 

Interested to see who you have potentially identified as another hero! 

Note: I have started my re-read today!! Perhaps it is the discussions we have had on Valyrian steel, but I found myself thinking more and more on the sword that the Other Ser Waymar fights has. We shall see where this re-read takes me, in any case. I am waiting for Jon's  NW chapters to take notes on the castles (but, of course, that will not be until I reach Dance). I am also hoping that I may pick up on some more ideas on how story lines may merge in Winds. 

Curled Finger rubs hands together vigorously in anticipation of Dame's findings...

Having folks to talk to regularly tends to wear off on me.   I'll take that as a high compliment that you are rereading with these swords in mind.   Just as I am listening carefully to all the Northern mountain clansmen and their descriptions.   And I''m trying to be more aware of everything Val says in hopes of picking up on the folk magic and folk logic you and bemused saw so obviously.  

Magic prone to mutation?   Wowl  It does make a certain sense.    I was trying to explain the contributing factors to the Others waking in another thread recently and it strikes me that there wasn't a single thing but many things, major and minor that may have played into unleashing the Others. Still we know so little about them and I'm not even certain that they are bad guys.    One thing I am most settled on is some regression regarding The Pact.   Now if we only knew what that actually was, we would be in better shape.  But to your evolution of magic idea I think it incorporates easily into a series of events occurring, possibly causing incremental release of magic.  Do you think magic is good or bad for Westeros?  In this releasing or evolution or mutation of the magic I expect that counter measures are also contributed.  I have a hard time getting over how important the swords are as a counter to the magic.   As well as obsidian and cause & effect of blood sacrifice.    These are tools for those blessed or cursed with generational magic (dragons & wargs) to use to manage the direction magic travels.   Just like that last greenseer and meeting only 2 greendreamers in 5 novels.   (Arienne comes across a dreamer in the sample chapter from TWOW, but we can't be sure if she's the real deal or not yet)   Lots of magic and counters in this story.  

I've been stumped on that moonstone pommel Nightfall sports.   I've always sort of assumed Asha or Theon would wield it or Red Rain.   I can only connect moonstones with Bloodraven.  chrisdaw is utterly convinced and threw out a bit of interesting textual support for Garland Tyrell to have Nightfall.    Garland has been on the big list of potential heroes for a long time, but this narrows his importance quite a bit, so I've moved Garland into the top 12 with a star.   If I come across the text again I will shoot it over to you.   What I like about this is how simple text put hero and sword together rather than the stupid pommel, which has obviously been tripping me up forever.   Both of these II swords are long swords.   Theon used a longsword to on the II captain at Moat Cailin.  I'm looking for brutes for Heartsbane and whatever other two handed greatswords show up.  Things were a lot easier when everyone was still alive and Jamie had both hands.    I don't know if I mentioned it before to you but Ice was a greatsword and Ned managed it easily.   I'm not sure if Ned just practiced forever or if maybe he was much larger than we think.   I think Ice was 6' long.    That Other sword sounds a lot like Dawn doesn't it?   I always assumed it was made of ice, but that was just how it sounded to me.   Can't wait to see what your careful research comes up with.

[dornishdame]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Magic prone to mutation?   Wowl  It does make a certain sense.    I was trying to explain the contributing factors to the Others waking in another thread recently and it strikes me that there wasn't a single thing but many things, major and minor that may have played into unleashing the Others. Still we know so little about them and I'm not even certain that they are bad guys.    One thing I am most settled on is some regression regarding The Pact.   Now if we only knew what that actually was, we would be in better shape.  But to your evolution of magic idea I think it incorporates easily into a series of events occurring, possibly causing incremental release of magic.  Do you think magic is good or bad for Westeros?  In this releasing or evolution or mutation of the magic I expect that counter measures are also contributed.  I have a hard time getting over how important the swords are as a counter to the magic.   As well as obsidian and cause & effect of blood sacrifice.    These are tools for those blessed or cursed with generational magic (dragons & wargs) to use to manage the direction magic travels.   Just like that last greenseer and meeting only 2 greendreamers in 5 novels.   (Arienne comes across a dreamer in the sample chapter from TWOW, but we can't be sure if she's the real deal or not yet)   Lots of magic and counters in this story.  

I would be intrigued to know if the return of magic to the world is a result of the return of the Others, or if the Others are back because magic has returned.  Certainly, as we have discussed, magic seemed to leave the world over the centuries before the last dragon in Westeros died; the Others, however, have not been around for thousands of years more than that. Perhaps the fact that magic is returning rather than continuing in existence makes it more potent? And it is that potency that allowed the Others to return? Not sure. 

I know there is speculation that Jon's birth could be the cause - the unification of ice and fire. Perhaps in Jon those things became too balanced? And as a result fire and ice are fighting for supremacy, when the balance is what should be sought after.  As to whether magic is good or bad, I think that more than anything there needs to be balance. It can be used for good, and it can be used for evil. As for blood sacrifices, I wonder if we will see a return to this in Winds or Dream, with sacrifices given to the weirwood trees. I suppose you could argue that all those Melisandre has burned have been given as blood sacrifices. 

Greenseers seem to be rare - I would, however, love to know about Howland Reed's time on the Isle of Faces prior to the tourney at Harrenhal. I wonder if there is any relationship between greenseers and dragon dreamers, like Egg and Aemon's brother Daeron the Drunken.  The girl you mention is Teora Toland, someone I find very intriguing and hope to find out more about in Winds. I would be interested to know the family tree of the Tolands.  While they are described as redheads, I find it interesting to note that 1) Teora has dragon dreams (dreams that sound similar to those Daeron the Drunken had) and 2) Valena Toland is the name of her sister.  I could be making something out of nothing - and probably am - but if we look at the Targaryen family tree, we find Valaena Velaryon, wife of Aerion Targaryen and mother to Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives Visenya and Rhaenys. The Velaryons seem to have intermarried with the Targaryens on numerous occasions, and it would be interesting to see if one of these descendants married into the Toland family (not impossible, given the intermarriage with the Dornish over the last few generations).

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I've been stumped on that moonstone pommel Nightfall sports.   I've always sort of assumed Asha or Theon would wield it or Red Rain.   I can only connect moonstones with Bloodraven.  chrisdaw is utterly convinced and threw out a bit of interesting textual support for Garland Tyrell to have Nightfall.    Garland has been on the big list of potential heroes for a long time, but this narrows his importance quite a bit, so I've moved Garland into the top 12 with a star.   If I come across the text again I will shoot it over to you.   What I like about this is how simple text put hero and sword together rather than the stupid pommel, which has obviously been tripping me up forever.   Both of these II swords are long swords.   Theon used a longsword to on the II captain at Moat Cailin.  I'm looking for brutes for Heartsbane and whatever other two handed greatswords show up.  Things were a lot easier when everyone was still alive and Jamie had both hands.    I don't know if I mentioned it before to you but Ice was a greatsword and Ned managed it easily.   I'm not sure if Ned just practiced forever or if maybe he was much larger than we think.   I think Ice was 6' long.    That Other sword sounds a lot like Dawn doesn't it?   I always assumed it was made of ice, but that was just how it sounded to me.   Can't wait to see what your careful research comes up with.

Garlan Tyrell is an interesting addition; he seems to me a combination of the best bits of Loras and Willas. He comes across as a good warrior, but is also good with people in a way I imagine Willas is. 

Regarding Dawn and the blade the Other uses against Waymar Royce, I located this contrast:

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. (The World of Ice and Fire)

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. (Prologue in Thrones)

Dawn is patently not a Valyrian Steel blade; in fact, I would say that it is possibly more akin to the blade that the Other uses. Both blades sound both sharp and pale.  And I would love to know how the blade got it's name. Dawn is suggestive of a sword that should be used in the Battle for the Dawn, does it not? It would be interesting to compare how Dawn and a Valyrian Steel sword work in battle against the Others. 

As for Ice, I would need to check but I don't think Ned uses it in battle because of the size.  It is used as a ceremonial blade more than anything else.  I'm sure there is an SSM somewhere about it, but as I say, I would need to check. That said, I recall Eustace Osgrey in The Sworn Sword talking about the Battle of Redgrass Field, and it seems as if Valyrian Steel was used then (also sure Blackfyre was a greatsword).

Daemon was the Warrior himself that day. No man could stand before him. He broke Lord Arryn's van to pieces and slew the Knight of Ninestars and Wild Wyl Waynwood before coming up against Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard. For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. (The Sworn Sword)

Generally, on my re-read, I think I have already come across something that could be raised again in Winds in the form of the type of sword used by the Others. I think we will be seeing more and more of them as the northern story lines come together, and as I have said before I think Winds will conclude with the Wall being breached. So that would involve more Others. 

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I would be intrigued to know if the return of magic to the world is a result of the return of the Others, or if the Others are back because magic has returned.  Certainly, as we have discussed, magic seemed to leave the world over the centuries before the last dragon in Westeros died; the Others, however, have not been around for thousands of years more than that. Perhaps the fact that magic is returning rather than continuing in existence makes it more potent? And it is that potency that allowed the Others to return? Not sure.    Certainly The Others are some sort of magic, but that's a really good point.  Is their coming a result of or a conduit for the return of magic?  Minds far more retentive than mine often discuss the various types of magic at play.   All I see is Fire magic, really.   I'm not sure what Ice magic even consists of.  I don't know that the COTF are related to ice so much as they seem to be what some folks call "earth" magic and I only consider "water" a magic because of Patchface's many references to all the things that happen "under the sea".   All I've even got in the Ice Magic category is wights, a form of necromancy.  A friend and I spent some time trying to come up with all the direct opposite magical things in the story once.   Wights are probably the opposite of those called from death by the Red god's kiss of life.   Are dire wolves the opposite of dragons?   I don't see how they are equal.  Is warging the opposite of dragon riding? You made a point a little later which I can categorize (I love it when you take me to school!) dragon dreams could very well be the opposite of green dreams.   There has been some fascinating discussion regarding Euron lately, possibly having the inverse abilities of Bran.   We will have to wait and see if Euron is all this.   Have you got any other clear opposite but equal magics?  

I know there is speculation that Jon's birth could be the cause - the unification of ice and fire. Perhaps in Jon those things became too balanced? And as a result fire and ice are fighting for supremacy, when the balance is what should be sought after.  As to whether magic is good or bad, I think that more than anything there needs to be balance. It can be used for good, and it can be used for evil. As for blood sacrifices, I wonder if we will see a return to this in Winds or Dream, with sacrifices given to the weirwood trees. I suppose you could argue that all those Melisandre has burned have been given as blood sacrifices.     Without a definite date of return for the Others, the closest I can come is BR's taking the black or actually being North.   The talk of sacrifices North of the Wall is all I base this on.    I think The others have been at play for roughly 50 years.   Without a good timeline when I 1st made up my little 600 year synopsis everything since Aegon's conquest was halved for major occurrences.   I've since been edified, but I don't think it all hinges on a single thing.  I think there have been sacrifices to the weirwoods that we just haven't seen.   And yes, I do think Mel's burning and destruction of the weirwoods has done something to accelerate The Other's power or ability.  (I figure these practices were major transgressions of The Pact.)  Still, I agree with you completely that there needs to be balance in the magical and natural forces of fire and ice and probably all the other types of magic and natural forces.    A poster recently made a point about the story being about the balance of ice and fire not ice versus fire.    I thought that eloquently stated and try to hold on to its ration and reason in all my statements now.  

Greenseers seem to be rare - I would, however, love to know about Howland Reed's time on the Isle of Faces prior to the tourney at Harrenhal. I wonder if there is any relationship between greenseers and dragon dreamers, like Egg and Aemon's brother Daeron the Drunken.  The girl you mention is Teora Toland, someone I find very intriguing and hope to find out more about in Winds. I would be interested to know the family tree of the Tolands.  While they are described as redheads, I find it interesting to note that 1) Teora has dragon dreams (dreams that sound similar to those Daeron the Drunken had) and 2) Valena Toland is the name of her sister.  I could be making something out of nothing - and probably am - but if we look at the Targaryen family tree, we find Valaena Velaryon, wife of Aerion Targaryen and mother to Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives Visenya and Rhaenys. The Velaryons seem to have intermarried with the Targaryens on numerous occasions, and it would be interesting to see if one of these descendants married into the Toland family (not impossible, given the intermarriage with the Dornish over the last few generations).     I'll refer back to the Euron talk and throw that down by the math which assumes there are 42 million people on Plantetos.  Of them 1 in 100,00 are skinchangers and 1 in 100,000 of them are greenseers.   By this reckoning there should be 4 greenseers kicking around.   I think you're on to a real connection with the names.    I am forever stuck on Danaerys of the Martell line as related to our Dany and look for clues about Dany in her scant tale.   And I knew you would knew exactly who I was talking about.  I wish I could carry you around in my pocket for quick reference!  

Will address the rest later after the big egg hunt!   This is great, thanks Dame.

24 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Garlan Tyrell is an interesting addition; he seems to me a combination of the best bits of Loras and Willas. He comes across as a good warrior, but is also good with people in a way I imagine Willas is. 

Regarding Dawn and the blade the Other uses against Waymar Royce, I located this contrast:

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. (The World of Ice and Fire)

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. (Prologue in Thrones)

Dawn is patently not a Valyrian Steel blade; in fact, I would say that it is possibly more akin to the blade that the Other uses. Both blades sound both sharp and pale.  And I would love to know how the blade got it's name. Dawn is suggestive of a sword that should be used in the Battle for the Dawn, does it not? It would be interesting to compare how Dawn and a Valyrian Steel sword work in battle against the Others. 

As for Ice, I would need to check but I don't think Ned uses it in battle because of the size.  It is used as a ceremonial blade more than anything else.  I'm sure there is an SSM somewhere about it, but as I say, I would need to check. That said, I recall Eustace Osgrey in The Sworn Sword talking about the Battle of Redgrass Field, and it seems as if Valyrian Steel was used then (also sure Blackfyre was a greatsword).

Daemon was the Warrior himself that day. No man could stand before him. He broke Lord Arryn's van to pieces and slew the Knight of Ninestars and Wild Wyl Waynwood before coming up against Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard. For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. (The Sworn Sword)

Generally, on my re-read, I think I have already come across something that could be raised again in Winds in the form of the type of sword used by the Others. I think we will be seeing more and more of them as the northern story lines come together, and as I have said before I think Winds will conclude with the Wall being breached. So that would involve more Others. 

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Will address the rest later after the big egg hunt!   This is great, thanks Dame.

 

Yep. will never EVER get this thing to work the way I want it to.   Let's try to copy and past...That didn't want to work either.  

3 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Garlan Tyrell is an interesting addition; he seems to me a combination of the best bits of Loras and Willas. He comes across as a good warrior, but is also good with people in a way I imagine Willas is.     Garland is such a B player in my mind he was only on the long list because he distinguished himself by wearing Renly's armor and generally being a decent guy.  

chrisdaw offered this up:   Night falls for all of us in the end, and too soon for some.    This is something Olena is supposed to have said and this:  FROM AWOIAF:  Elrich V Harlaw retook Fair Island in his youth, only to lose it again in his old age. His son Harron slew Gareth the Grim of Highgarden beneath the walls of Oldtown.    chrisdaw further explained:  Harron Harlaw vs Gareth Grim of Highgarden.

Harras Harlaw and Garlan the Gallant of Highgarden are set to meet as they're commanders on opposite sides who both fancy single combat. Garlan will get Nightfall, either through the chest or off Harlaw's corpse.   

And it resonated with me.   I'm not 100% there, but certainly closer than I was 3 or 4 weeks ago.   I need to be convinced of Garland's worthiness in being a companion.    I have a lot of hope for Garland in TWOW.   There are still the 3 swords (Vigilance, Heartsbane and Orphanmaker--I hope!) in the Reach that need to be claimed.   Having an II sword claimed by a Reachman really took me by surprise.  

Regarding Dawn and the blade the Other uses against Waymar Royce, I located this contrast:

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. (The World of Ice and Fire)

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. (Prologue in Thrones)

Dawn is patently not a Valyrian Steel blade; in fact, I would say that it is possibly more akin to the blade that the Other uses. Both blades sound both sharp and pale.  And I would love to know how the blade got it's name. Dawn is suggestive of a sword that should be used in the Battle for the Dawn, does it not? It would be interesting to compare how Dawn and a Valyrian Steel sword work in battle against the Others.  No, dear Dame, I didn't mean to infer that dawn was VS at all!  I'm sorry if I offered up some wording to that effect.    What I meant was that Dawn resembled the Other's blade.    Dawn is described as milkglass in color.   I don't know if you've ever seen milkglass in person, but I collect a little Depression Era colored glass and this stuff is often on display with the collectibles.    It's really sort of ghostly looking up against some opulent carnival glass.  It could be the lighting in dusty old antique shops, but I swear there is a bluish hue to it.   Dawn is said to be made from the heart of a meteor, so that certainly qualifies for the description you cited above--being otherworldly and all.  This is why I can't buy into Dawn = Lightbringer 100%.   I can follow the logic of the argument, but I still rather suspect the Others have blades far more like Dawn in nature.   We are given VS in opposition to blades described much like Dawn is described.   Maybe Dawn is it and I'm missing the point.   Right here and now I have doubts.  

As for Ice, I would need to check but I don't think Ned uses it in battle because of the size.  It is used as a ceremonial blade more than anything else.  I'm sure there is an SSM somewhere about it, but as I say, I would need to check. That said, I recall Eustace Osgrey in The Sworn Sword talking about the Battle of Redgrass Field, and it seems as if Valyrian Steel was used then (also sure Blackfyre was a greatsword).    He lopped off Will's head in a single blow.  He had to practice with it to become so precise with it.   The sword was almost as big as he was.  I can't imagine anyone using a monster like Ice in battle, though Orphanmaker and Lady Forlorn were both used during battles.  Of course, we don't know what either sword is or was in the case of Lady Forlorn.  

Daemon was the Warrior himself that day. No man could stand before him. He broke Lord Arryn's van to pieces and slew the Knight of Ninestars and Wild Wyl Waynwood before coming up against Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard. For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. (The Sworn Sword)   Egad, can you just imagine the strength!  This of course, leads one to believe that LF was a greatsword, I wonder if there is any way to confirm that?   Back to the encyclopedia!  

Generally, on my re-read, I think I have already come across something that could be raised again in Winds in the form of the type of sword used by the Others. I think we will be seeing more and more of them as the northern story lines come together, and as I have said before I think Winds will conclude with the Wall being breached. So that would involve more Others.    Yes it most certainly will and I think the majority of our POVs will be merged and the majority of our swords will be found and have worthy heroes to wield them.    You bring up such an interesting comparison between the Other's sword and Dawn.   Then contrast with true VS, I have to ask what your thoughts on this are?  I dread this wonder of the world being destroyed, but it just makes so much sense.   Do you believe there is anything frozen inside the Wall?  Dame, it's so good to see you again.   I hope your holiday is joyous.   I look forward to hearing about your reread! 

 

[Curled Finger]

Dame! was looking for description of Lady Forlorn & ran across description of Blakfyre--it is a 1.5 hands longsword.   Not the monster we were thinking, but a substantial blade nonetheless.   Hope that helps in your adventure.  

[dornishdame]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Certainly The Others are some sort of magic, but that's a really good point.  Is their coming a result of or a conduit for the return of magic?  Minds far more retentive than mine often discuss the various types of magic at play.   All I see is Fire magic, really.   I'm not sure what Ice magic even consists of.  I don't know that the COTF are related to ice so much as they seem to be what some folks call "earth" magic and I only consider "water" a magic because of Patchface's many references to all the things that happen "under the sea".   All I've even got in the Ice Magic category is wights, a form of necromancy.  A friend and I spent some time trying to come up with all the direct opposite magical things in the story once.   Wights are probably the opposite of those called from death by the Red god's kiss of life.   Are dire wolves the opposite of dragons?   I don't see how they are equal.  Is warging the opposite of dragon riding? You made a point a little later which I can categorize (I love it when you take me to school!) dragon dreams could very well be the opposite of green dreams.   There has been some fascinating discussion regarding Euron lately, possibly having the inverse abilities of Bran.   We will have to wait and see if Euron is all this.   Have you got any other clear opposite but equal magics?  

Ice magic, for me, is how the Others exist.  When Sam kills the Other with dragonglass below, I think is a good example for this.  I think there is an SSM where GRRM said that the Other had been held together by magic. Not sure - I know the books better than SSMs!

And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." (Sam I in Storm)

I would like Winds to give us more information on both greenseers and dragon dreams. On reflection, I am caught between greenseers being representative of ice magic and being representative of earth magic.  I would also like to know what type of magic the Ghost of High Heart holds - she spends so much time close to the weirwood cavern in the Riverlands, and I tend to link her magic to the Old Gods. 

I have been thinking more and more about Euron since my last re-read. I am not sure if his powers are an inversion of those Bran has, but I think he is linked in some way to Bloodraven. They share the loss of an eye as well as crow imagery and symbolism. 

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

"There is the window. Leap." Victarion had no patience for this. (The Reaver in Feast)

If we compare this to Bran, who took a leap (though not willingly) from a tall tower..........he also had a dream in which he was told he could fly, and was told by a maester (Luwin) that he could not.  There is definitely a link there, though I am not yet sure what it is. I know there are theories that Euron is some sort of escaped or failed apprentice of Bloodraven's. Whether I believe them or not is another matter - one I have yet to take a decision on.  That said, as I have noted above, I do think there is some sort of link between Euron and Bloodraven. I would be interested to know the circumstances of Euron's dream. 

As for warging, I don't see it as the opposite of dragon riding per se, but I do think there are some parallels - both require a certain bond with the animal in question, for a start.  I get a bit fidgety when I read about Bran and/or Jon being dragon riders (particularly Jon). It isn't that I don't want them to be, more that they already have direwolves and they have bonded heavily with Summer and Ghost respectively.  That said, if Jon is to ride a dragon, I can see Rhaegal being a good fit. He was named after Rhaegar, so I see him being able to develop a bond with Jon in the way Drogon develops a bond with Daenerys as he is named for her husband. Also, Rhaegal is a green dragon, and Aegon V had a green dragon's egg (not suggesting Rhaegal was born from Aegon V's egg - I think that burned at Summerhall) and there are, as I have argued before, a number of parallels between the two. 

I suppose from a reader's perspective it would be intriguing to see a warg as powerful as Bran ride a dragon - it would fit in with Bloodraven's assertion that Bran will fly, and let us know if it truly is possible to tame a dragon. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Without a definite date of return for the Others, the closest I can come is BR's taking the black or actually being North.   The talk of sacrifices North of the Wall is all I base this on.    I think The others have been at play for roughly 50 years.   Without a good timeline when I 1st made up my little 600 year synopsis everything since Aegon's conquest was halved for major occurrences.   I've since been edified, but I don't think it all hinges on a single thing.  I think there have been sacrifices to the weirwoods that we just haven't seen.   And yes, I do think Mel's burning and destruction of the weirwoods has done something to accelerate The Other's power or ability.  (I figure these practices were major transgressions of The Pact.)  Still, I agree with you completely that there needs to be balance in the magical and natural forces of fire and ice and probably all the other types of magic and natural forces.    A poster recently made a point about the story being about the balance of ice and fire not ice versus fire.    I thought that eloquently stated and try to hold on to its ration and reason in all my statements now.  

Timing it to Bloodraven travelling north is intriguing - do you think it triggered the events around his disappearance?  I mean in the sense that he knew they were coming back and engineered his disappearance accordingly? We know from what Mormont says in Thrones that there have been disappearances north of the Wall. 

"The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?" (Jon IX in Thrones)

When the Others started to move south in numbers is up for debate; it seems to have been the year or so before Jon arrived at the Wall that they began picking off rangers. And yet, we know that Craster must have begun to sacrifice his sons long before that (though his sacrifice may not be related to the return of the Others). And then there is Mance's activities, uniting the free folk.

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name. (Jon II in Storm) 

When did he realize what was happening? Of course, the free folk live further north than the Watch range. 

You raise an interesting point about the Pact - I will head back to TWOIAF and re-read the section on that.  Melisandre could very well be making a bad situation worse.  And that does fit in with what we know of her thus far.   

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'll refer back to the Euron talk and throw that down by the math which assumes there are 42 million people on Plantetos.  Of them 1 in 100,00 are skinchangers and 1 in 100,000 of them are greenseers.   By this reckoning there should be 4 greenseers kicking around.   I think you're on to a real connection with the names.    I am forever stuck on Danaerys of the Martell line as related to our Dany and look for clues about Dany in her scant tale.   And I knew you would knew exactly who I was talking about.  I wish I could carry you around in my pocket for quick reference!  

Euron as a skinchanger/possible greenseer is intriguing.  Of course, he has a mute crew - people that can hardly protest vocally if he wargs them. I mentioned the Ghost of High Heart above - again, I wonder how she fits into this and if she knew Bloodraven.  As she did not come to Court until Jenny of Oldstones married Duncan the Small, they would not have met there, but the Ghost lives in the Riverlands, and Bloodraven has Blackwood connections there.  We also know from The Mystery Knight that he did not remain solely in King's Landing. 

Daenerys as a parallel to her namesake is interesting - I will need to look out for anything in my re-read that hints at it.  Of course, Daenerys Targaryen Martell was also given in marriage to seal an alliance (though that is common enough for women of high birth) - with Dorne rather than the Dothraki.  Hmmm.  I shall look out for more!

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Garland is such a B player in my mind he was only on the long list because he distinguished himself by wearing Renly's armor and generally being a decent guy.  

chrisdaw offered this up:   Night falls for all of us in the end, and too soon for some.    This is something Olena is supposed to have said and this:  FROM AWOIAF:  Elrich V Harlaw retook Fair Island in his youth, only to lose it again in his old age. His son Harron slew Gareth the Grim of Highgarden beneath the walls of Oldtown.    chrisdaw further explained:  Harron Harlaw vs Gareth Grim of Highgarden.

Harras Harlaw and Garlan the Gallant of Highgarden are set to meet as they're commanders on opposite sides who both fancy single combat. Garlan will get Nightfall, either through the chest or off Harlaw's corpse.   

And it resonated with me.   I'm not 100% there, but certainly closer than I was 3 or 4 weeks ago.   I need to be convinced of Garland's worthiness in being a companion.    I have a lot of hope for Garland in TWOW.   There are still the 3 swords (Vigilance, Heartsbane and Orphanmaker--I hope!) in the Reach that need to be claimed.   Having an II sword claimed by a Reachman really took me by surprise. 

I think we will get to see, or at the very least hear, more of Garlan in Winds when the Ironborn attack the Reach.  This may be the opportunity to prove himself to others.  And we know from Mace's gift of Brightwater Keep to Garlan rather than one of his loyal bannermen with a legitimate claim to the castle, that the Tyrells are not above appropriating the bounty of war for themselves rather than passing it on to their men. 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

No, dear Dame, I didn't mean to infer that dawn was VS at all!  I'm sorry if I offered up some wording to that effect.    What I meant was that Dawn resembled the Other's blade.    Dawn is described as milkglass in color.   I don't know if you've ever seen milkglass in person, but I collect a little Depression Era colored glass and this stuff is often on display with the collectibles.    It's really sort of ghostly looking up against some opulent carnival glass.  It could be the lighting in dusty old antique shops, but I swear there is a bluish hue to it.   Dawn is said to be made from the heart of a meteor, so that certainly qualifies for the description you cited above--being otherworldly and all.  This is why I can't buy into Dawn = Lightbringer 100%.   I can follow the logic of the argument, but I still rather suspect the Others have blades far more like Dawn in nature.   We are given VS in opposition to blades described much like Dawn is described.   Maybe Dawn is it and I'm missing the point.   Right here and now I have doubts. 

No, I didn't think you were suggesting that Dawn was Valyrian Steel. I was just pointing out that Dawn is more like the sword the Other wields than Valyrian Steel swords like Longclaw. Dawn just leaves me completely confused.  As I said in my last post, the very name of the sword suggests a link to the Battle for the Dawn, and yet there is this conversation between Jon and Sam that implies Valyrian Steel may be what will work for them:

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well." (Jon II in Dance)

What Sam says about the Others' swords shattering steel is true; we witness that in Ser Waymar's fight:

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. (Prologue in Thrones)

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

He lopped off Will's head in a single blow.  He had to practice with it to become so precise with it.   The sword was almost as big as he was.  I can't imagine anyone using a monster like Ice in battle, though Orphanmaker and Lady Forlorn were both used during battles.  Of course, we don't know what either sword is or was in the case of Lady Forlorn.  

I'm not suggesting that Ned never practiced with Ice; he must have done. When I referred to it as a ceremonial sword, I meant in the sense that it would have been used at beheadings and at events where Ned was participating as Lord of Winterfell.  He would not have used it in battle, but would have trained with it in the practice yard from time to time. We really need to know more about the swords in question. 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes it most certainly will and I think the majority of our POVs will be merged and the majority of our swords will be found and have worthy heroes to wield them.    You bring up such an interesting comparison between the Other's sword and Dawn.   Then contrast with true VS, I have to ask what your thoughts on this are?  I dread this wonder of the world being destroyed, but it just makes so much sense.   Do you believe there is anything frozen inside the Wall?  Dame, it's so good to see you again.   I hope your holiday is joyous.   I look forward to hearing about your reread! 

I think there will be a dramatic reduction in POVs by the end of Winds.  I tend to think of it as being more akin to Storm in the amount of action it will include.  I mean action in the sense of number of events.  Feast and Dance showed us the short-term consequences of the War of the Five Kings and set up the next sequence of events.  I think that there are a number of doomed POVs and I will be sorry to say goodbye to some of them.  

As I have said before, I don't necessarily think the entire Wall has to come down for there to be a breach. I hate the destruction of ancient things, but it isn't up to me what happens to the Wall!! It may even simply be that the magics keeping the Others north of the Wall are breached and the structure remains in place.  In terms of anything being frozen inside the Wall - aren't the 79 sentinels supposed to be there? Perhaps bones will be discovered. After all, fire destroys but ice preserves. 

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Dame! was looking for description of Lady Forlorn & ran across description of Blakfyre--it is a 1.5 hands longsword.   Not the monster we were thinking, but a substantial blade nonetheless.   Hope that helps in your adventure.  

I am hopeless at figuring out sizes - I'll need to try and work out how it compares to Ice.  All I could recall about the size of Blackfyre was that it was bigger than Dark Sister!

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Ice magic, for me, is how the Others exist.  When Sam kills the Other with dragonglass below, I think is a good example for this.  I think there is an SSM where GRRM said that the Other had been held together by magic. Not sure - I know the books better than SSMs!    I hadn't looked at magic fueling the Others.   I rather thought of them as the remnants of an ancient race that  could not tolerate the humans.  I always assumed their restraint or sleep or binding to be voluntary.  This Pact had conditions and I assumed they had a part to honor.  I thought it was the magic that kept them out of the general population.   This is a new way of looking at them for me. 

And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steamand sweating. Gas if it were alive renn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." (Sam I in Storm)    I did it again.    Was trying to bold your quote about the dagger wreathed in steam and sweating.   Hmm, seems to me I've seen that description before--a lot of times--about the Wall itself!   

I would like Winds to give us more information on both greenseers and dragon dreams. On reflection, I am caught between greenseers being representative of ice magic and being representative of earth magic.  I would also like to know what type of magic the Ghost of High Heart holds - she spends so much time close to the weirwood cavern in the Riverlands, and I tend to link her magic to the Old Gods.   And I really thought she was a COTF, but she's called a dwarf many times.   My only qualm with this is her life span.    Even a human dwarf can't live as long as she has if she truly is the GoHH.  Bloodraven and the children are the only creatures I know of with that long life span.   She can't be human. 

I have been thinking more and more about Euron since my last re-read. I am not sure if his powers are an inversion of those Bran has, but I think he is linked in some way to Bloodraven. They share the loss of an eye as well as crow imagery and symbolism. 

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

"There is the window. Leap." Victarion had no patience for this. (The Reaver in Feast)

If we compare this to Bran, who took a leap (though not willingly) from a tall tower..........he also had a dream in which he was told he could fly, and was told by a maester (Luwin) that he could not.  There is definitely a link there, though I am not yet sure what it is. I know there are theories that Euron is some sort of escaped or failed apprentice of Bloodraven's. Whether I believe them or not is another matter - one I have yet to take a decision on.  That said, as I have noted above, I do think there is some sort of link between Euron and Bloodraven. I would be interested to know the circumstances of Euron's dream.    I love this idea that BR tapped Euron for the cause, but I can't put them together.  That said, it could be that Euron has all the gifts that Bran has and being resistant to BR's dream training he may have opted to train himself.   He does seem arrogant that way.  Now he yearns for the dreams and perhaps he can't have them.   He has to drink Shade of the Evening to open his eye.   Throwing in with the Warlocks sort of tells me where he is.    He has talent and no idea what to do with it.   Being a jerk he will look for quick victories and rule by terror.   He wouldn't have the patience for Bran's training.   But I do think he's got power, some terrible mockery of Bran's power perhaps.   

As for warging, I don't see it as the opposite of dragon riding per se, but I do think there are some parallels - both require a certain bond with the animal in question, for a start.  I get a bit fidgety when I read about Bran and/or Jon being dragon riders (particularly Jon). It isn't that I don't want them to be, more that they already have direwolves and they have bonded heavily with Summer and Ghost respectively.  That said, if Jon is to ride a dragon, I can see Rhaegal being a good fit. He was named after Rhaegar, so I see him being able to develop a bond with Jon in the way Drogon develops a bond with Daenerys as he is named for her husband. Also, Rhaegal is a green dragon, and Aegon V had a green dragon's egg (not suggesting Rhaegal was born from Aegon V's egg - I think that burned at Summerhall) and there are, as I have argued before, a number of parallels between the two.    Yah, it's hard to find true opposites in this tale.    I still reckon this is a story about balance.    Certainly there will be heroes to villains, kindness to cruelty and some equivalent to dragons.  Just as there should be some equivalent to the kiss of life, direwolves, skinchanging and the Others.   I can't see it yet.  Though I did get green dreams to dragon dreams!   We get glimpses of portions of the balance, but GRRM has yet to give much up yet.   I'm so ready for TWOW now.  

I suppose from a reader's perspective it would be intriguing to see a warg as powerful as Bran ride a dragon - it would fit in with Bloodraven's assertion that Bran will fly, and let us know if it truly is possible to tame a dragon.  I don't know if you've had time to read any of the topics in general, but late last week a poster found a relationship between the giant bats hanging in the COTF cave and Viseryon hanging around at the top of his lair with Rhaegal.   She posted a picture of a bat skeleton and be damned if it didn't look like a dragon.  It's a neat premise.   May lend some possible credence to the idea that Bran will at least have the opportunity to warg those bones and experience their memories.   I think every reader has an idea about Bran flying through any number of creatures, dragons among them.  Just the idea that the COTF cave was once a dragon's lair is pretty cool and gives a completely new disturbing element to the creepy place.    But it would explain the random goats. 

Timing it to Bloodraven travelling north is intriguing - do you think it triggered the events around his disappearance?  I mean in the sense that he knew they were coming back and engineered his disappearance accordingly? We know from what Mormont says in Thrones that there have been disappearances north of the Wall. 

"The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?" (Jon IX in Thrones)

When the Others started to move south in numbers is up for debate; it seems to have been the year or so before Jon arrived at the Wall that they began picking off rangers. And yet, we know that Craster must have begun to sacrifice his sons long before that (though his sacrifice may not be related to the return of the Others). And then there is Mance's activities, uniting the free folk.

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name. (Jon II in Storm) 

When did he realize what was happening? Of course, the free folk live further north than the Watch range. 

You raise an interesting point about the Pact - I will head back to TWOIAF and re-read the section on that.  Melisandre could very well be making a bad situation worse.  And that does fit in with what we know of her thus far.   I think BR being that close to the Others and the cave may have been the last straw or last magical element required to get the Others up or out.  Like the final line of a spell or the last piece of the Pact that had to be broken to really allow the Others their autonomy.   I like the idea that the Blackwoods were the Warg Kings and maybe they were exiled as part of the Pact?    It just seems like things started happening when BR came to town to me.  Couple that with my thinking BR is actually a good guy and it sort of becomes the road to hell being paved with good intentions.  

Euron as a skinchanger/possible greenseer is intriguing.  Of course, he has a mute crew - people that can hardly protest vocally if he wargs them. I mentioned the Ghost of High Heart above - again, I wonder how she fits into this and if she knew Bloodraven.  As she did not come to Court until Jenny of Oldstones married Duncan the Small, they would not have met there, but the Ghost lives in the Riverlands, and Bloodraven has Blackwood connections there.  We also know from The Mystery Knight that he did not remain solely in King's Landing. Exactly where that moonstone pommel became so prominent in my mind.   Now you bring up an intriguing connection between the GoHH and BR.   What do you make of it?

Daenerys as a parallel to her namesake is interesting - I will need to look out for anything in my re-read that hints at it.  Of course, Daenerys Targaryen Martell was also given in marriage to seal an alliance (though that is common enough for women of high birth) - with Dorne rather than the Dothraki.  Hmmm.  I shall look out for more!    All I was able to piece together was that Dany I married politically and loved another and her affinity for all children.   I look forward to anything else your careful eyes come across.  

I think we will get to see, or at the very least hear, more of Garlan in Winds when the Ironborn attack the Reach.  This may be the opportunity to prove himself to others.  And we know from Mace's gift of Brightwater Keep to Garlan rather than one of his loyal bannermen with a legitimate claim to the castle, that the Tyrells are not above appropriating the bounty of war for themselves rather than passing it on to their men.   I'm really hoping that the sons are a far cry from Mace.    He's such a shameless sycophant.  Everything we hear of Wyllas, the little bit we got of Garlan and the goodness we finally got to see in Loras (the whole Brienne thing) gives me hope that they are better than their father.   I hope we learn a little more about the current Hightowers through them and maybe just maybe get their opinions about Marg.   If Garlan does get Nightfall he better earn it legitimately.  I'm very fond of The Reader and I'm loath to see his family lose this precious sword. 

No, I didn't think you were suggesting that Dawn was Valyrian Steel. I was just pointing out that Dawn is more like the sword the Other wields than Valyrian Steel swords like Longclaw. Dawn just leaves me completely confused.  As I said in my last post, the very name of the sword suggests a link to the Battle for the Dawn, and yet there is this conversation between Jon and Sam that implies Valyrian Steel may be what will work for them:

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well." (Jon II in Dance)

What Sam says about the Others' swords shattering steel is true; we witness that in Ser Waymar's fight:

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. (Prologue in Thrones)        Great, now you have me rethinking Dawn and dragonsteel.   I still think VS is dragonsteel.   What if Dawn is actually just exactly like the Others; swords?   Makes the Others aliens.   I'm not sure I like that, but I'll play.   It makes Dawn potentially a spoil of that encounter.   The last Other sword to fall and the victors kept it because it was cool or whatever.  Sending it all the way to Starfall would make a lot of sense if that was the way.   Except that the World Book is pretty decisive about the legend of Starfall and Dawn and all the Swords of the Morning and 1 Sword of the Evening.   I just tried to search ancestral Ice, but got nothing.   I seem to remember reading that ancestral Ice-that is Ice before VS Ice--was also a pale blade--I will let you know if I find it again.  

I'm not suggesting that Ned never practiced with Ice; he must have done. When I referred to it as a ceremonial sword, I meant in the sense that it would have been used at beheadings and at events where Ned was participating as Lord of Winterfell.  He would not have used it in battle, but would have trained with it in the practice yard from time to time. We really need to know more about the swords in question.  While searching for ancestral ice I did get to read the paragraph that describes the beheading.   Theon (I think it's Theon) describes Ice as "as tall as Robb" with the blade as wide as a man's hand.   Ned pulls Ice up over his head with 2 hands.    Yep, it's a monster.  

I think there will be a dramatic reduction in POVs by the end of Winds.  I tend to think of it as being more akin to Storm in the amount of action it will include.  I mean action in the sense of number of events.  Feast and Dance showed us the short-term consequences of the War of the Five Kings and set up the next sequence of events.  I think that there are a number of doomed POVs and I will be sorry to say goodbye to some of them.  Me too, but it will be exciting to see some of these characters enter each other's orbits, too.   I am really looking forward to Dany and Tyrion actually meeting. 

As I have said before, I don't necessarily think the entire Wall has to come down for there to be a breach. I hate the destruction of ancient things, but it isn't up to me what happens to the Wall!! It may even simply be that the magics keeping the Others north of the Wall are breached and the structure remains in place.  In terms of anything being frozen inside the Wall - aren't the 79 sentinels supposed to be there? Perhaps bones will be discovered. After all, fire destroys but ice preserves.   I think this may be where the castles along the Wall come into play.   As of where we last left The Wall, Sentinel Stand, 3rd castle from the west end of the Wall, is still uninhabited.   I believe this is where the 79 sentinels were made to keep their eternal watch.   This never fails to conjure up visions of blood in the Wall for me.   I made a spreadsheet so you could see where the castles fall and who mans them.   Let me know if you would like me to send you a copy of it.   Essentially, most of the castles are manned.   A great deal is made about the cutting back of the forest at either Ice Mark or Grey Guard.  It's mentioned so many times that I am completely suspicious of the woods there.   As I am rereading ADWD again from the top, I really need Selyse to get moved into the Night Fort.   Just for my own satisfaction.  

I am hopeless at figuring out sizes - I'll need to try and work out how it compares to Ice.  All I could recall about the size of Blackfyre was that it was bigger than Dark Sister!    I turned to the encyclopedia for reference on all these swords.    I learned that the hands measurement is really and truly how many hands it takes to move a sword according to the pommel.   A bastard sword is a modification of great swords and/or long swords.   Greatswords are monsters.   Bastard swords are usually just longer than long swords.  Long swords are manageable for full grown people.  Figure if the greatsword Ice was as tall as Robb, it was easily 5'6" tall, probably more.   The width of a man's hand is roughly 6".   That's a big blade.   Dark Sister is a long sword with a thin blade and probably a specialized pommel for a woman's hand.    It's still a lethal long sword, just a thinner blade, maybe not as thin as Needle, but certainly not 4" wide either. "The moon was a crescent, thin, and sharp as the blade of a knife" sums Dark Sister up rather nicely, I think.   I figure Widows Wail has to be fairly similar to Dark Sister in size as Oath Keeper does seem to be a big blade even though it's only classified as a long sword.   Ice and Heartsbane are monster big swords.    I imagine Longclaw is a pretty big sword, too, but not the epic largeness of Ice.   Blackfyre is no doubt a completely viable working sword in that it could be used in battle if needed and now I feel safe in saying the same for Lady Forlorn.   I still count 5 VS swords MIA.   Let me know if you pick on any hints at all.    I've given up on Brightroar and Lamentation.    I think they really are done for, never to be seen again.     However, we still need to find Truth, Vigilance, Dark Sister, Blackfyre and Orphanmaker.   Though I'm reasonably sure that Vigilance is still with the Hightowers.   . 

How are you getting any reading done?  I'll go fill in some more information on the castles so that when you get to ADWD we will have all the info in front of us!  

[dornishdame]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I hadn't looked at magic fueling the Others.   I rather thought of them as the remnants of an ancient race that  could not tolerate the humans.  I always assumed their restraint or sleep or binding to be voluntary.  This Pact had conditions and I assumed they had a part to honor.  I thought it was the magic that kept them out of the general population.   This is a new way of looking at them for me. 

I do wonder at times how much of the history that has come down from the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age is accurate - particularly given the tendency for those at the Citadel to be so anti-magic (with exceptions, of course).  I know there is a theory that the last Long Night ended with a truce rather than a defeat of the Others. If that is the case, it could be that the return of the Others is linked to some breach or other in that truce; or, it could indicate that something holding the Others back no longer exists.  I guess we will find out more in Winds, now that Sam has so many reading possibilities in Oldtown.  That said, I don't think we will get a full picture until Dream. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

And I really thought she was a COTF, but she's called a dwarf many times.   My only qualm with this is her life span.    Even a human dwarf can't live as long as she has if she truly is the GoHH.  Bloodraven and the children are the only creatures I know of with that long life span.   She can't be human. 

I went back to Storm, when Arya encounters her for a description:

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?" (Arya IV in Storm)

There is also this section from the same chapter:

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen.

The smallfolk hereabouts shunned the place, Tom told her; it was said to be haunted by the ghosts of the children of the forest who had died here when the Andal king named Erreg the Kinslayer had cut down their grove. Arya knew about the children of the forest, and about the Andals too, but ghosts did not frighten her. (Arya IV in Storm)

At the moment, I am leaning towards her being a human dwarf.  Yes, she would be a great age, but it isn't impossible.  We know from The World of Ice and Fire that Duncan the Small met Jenny of Oldstones in 239AC, and that the Ghost of High Heart came to Court after their marriage. I would put her age-wise as being somewhere in her 90s - thereby estimating that she was in her twenties when she came to Court. She is described as a Woods Witch; no mention is made of her being old.  Not impossible, given that Maester Aemon lives past a hundred. And, Aemon dies when he leaves the Wall. I know there is the idea that ice preserves, but what if it was not the ice preserving him, but the closeness of the Old Gods? I know that Aemon would have worshipped the Seven, but he does speak up for the Old Gods. 

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. "Lord Slynt," he said, "this boy refused to swear his vows properly in the sept, but went beyond the Wall to say his words before a heart tree. His father's gods, he said, but they are wildling gods as well."

"They are the gods of the north, Septon." Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm. (Jon IX in Storm)

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I love this idea that BR tapped Euron for the cause, but I can't put them together.  That said, it could be that Euron has all the gifts that Bran has and being resistant to BR's dream training he may have opted to train himself.   He does seem arrogant that way.  Now he yearns for the dreams and perhaps he can't have them.   He has to drink Shade of the Evening to open his eye.   Throwing in with the Warlocks sort of tells me where he is.    He has talent and no idea what to do with it.   Being a jerk he will look for quick victories and rule by terror.   He wouldn't have the patience for Bran's training.   But I do think he's got power, some terrible mockery of Bran's power perhaps.   

I agree that it is difficult to see Euron having the patience that Bran does.  He seems like someone who wants to be in control of others rather than be under the control of someone else.  Perhaps that is a result of the culture of the Iron Islands as much as his own personality? I guess I sort of see Euron as someone that has powers and wants to use them for his own ends.  I go back again to the mute crew and my comment that they would be unable to vocalize his warging of them (if, indeed, that was something he had done/attempted to do) and a curious parallel with Bran warging Hodor. Again, someone unable to vocalize it. I think Euron has studied magic just as much as Bloodraven was perceived to have done in the Dunk and Egg stories.  

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah, it's hard to find true opposites in this tale.    I still reckon this is a story about balance.    Certainly there will be heroes to villains, kindness to cruelty and some equivalent to dragons.  Just as there should be some equivalent to the kiss of life, direwolves, skinchanging and the Others.   I can't see it yet.  Though I did get green dreams to dragon dreams!   We get glimpses of portions of the balance, but GRRM has yet to give much up yet.   I'm so ready for TWOW now. 

I also think that there is potentially some types of, or uses of, magic that we have yet to see and may encounter in Winds. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know if you've had time to read any of the topics in general, but late last week a poster found a relationship between the giant bats hanging in the COTF cave and Viseryon hanging around at the top of his lair with Rhaegal.   She posted a picture of a bat skeleton and be damned if it didn't look like a dragon.  It's a neat premise.   May lend some possible credence to the idea that Bran will at least have the opportunity to warg those bones and experience their memories.   I think every reader has an idea about Bran flying through any number of creatures, dragons among them.  Just the idea that the COTF cave was once a dragon's lair is pretty cool and gives a completely new disturbing element to the creepy place.    But it would explain the random goats. 

I have not seen it, but will check the theory out.  I am trying to recall if The World of Ice and Fire had anything in it about dragons going north of the Wall. I know Queen Alysanne visited the Night's Watch, but I cannot recall visits north of that.  That said, we know Drogon goes off hunting in Dance, and so it is not impossible that a dragon hunted that far north. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think BR being that close to the Others and the cave may have been the last straw or last magical element required to get the Others up or out.  Like the final line of a spell or the last piece of the Pact that had to be broken to really allow the Others their autonomy.   I like the idea that the Blackwoods were the Warg Kings and maybe they were exiled as part of the Pact?    It just seems like things started happening when BR came to town to me.  Couple that with my thinking BR is actually a good guy and it sort of becomes the road to hell being paved with good intentions.  

Exactly where that moonstone pommel became so prominent in my mind.   Now you bring up an intriguing connection between the GoHH and BR.   What do you make of it?

As to Bloodraven being a good guy, there is this quote I like (partly because it links into similar thoughts Jon has in Dance):

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them. (The World of Ice and Fire)

I guess that could fit in with what you are saying?  Bloodraven is undoubtedly a powerful man, and magic is often misinterpreted. 

In truth, the legends of the skinchangers are many, but the most common—brought from beyond the Wall by men of the Night's Watch, and recorded at the Wall by septons and maesters of centuries past—hold that the skinchangers not only communicated with beasts, but could control them by having their spirits mingle. Even among the wildlings, these skinchangers were feared as unnatural men who could call on animals as allies. Some tales speak of skinchangers losing themselves in their beasts, and others say that the animals could speak with a human voice when a skinchanger controlled them. But all the tales agree that the most common skinchangers were men who controlled wolves—even direwolves—and these had a special name among the wildlings:wargs. (The World of Ice and Fire)

Of course, we know that this idea of wildlings being afraid of wargs is nonsense and more likely Maester Yandel imposing his opinion of what he perceives as being unnatural.

"A warg he may be," Ygritte said, "but that has never frightened us." Others shouted agreement. (Jon VIII in Clash)

"That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks." (Jon I in Storm)

I wonder also if the bit about animals speaking with human voices is reflected in Mormont's raven - a raven I believe Bloodraven wargs.  Also, I wonder if this is the significance of Ghost being mute? Will Jon warg him in Winds and howl for assistance? 

I went looking for information about the Warg Kings. I think the Starks had a tendency to kill off the men and marry the highest ranking female (thereby ridding the world of the name and male line, but bringing their powers into the Stark bloodline). 

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors. (The World of Ice and Fire)

It seems to suggest that the Blackwoods were expelled from the north, but in a power grab by the Starks more than anything else. 

As for links between Bloodraven and the Ghost of High Heart, both seem to be albinos closely affiliated with the Old Gods and the Children of the Forest.  Beyond that...........it is impossible to know if they have ever met. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All I was able to piece together was that Dany I married politically and loved another and her affinity for all children.   I look forward to anything else your careful eyes come across.  

Yeah, that is pretty much where I am thus far.  I also wonder if Daenerys Stormborn was named by Rhaella in the hope that the Dornish would help her infant daughter and small son; a reminder of the familial ties that bound them.  

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm really hoping that the sons are a far cry from Mace.    He's such a shameless sycophant.  Everything we hear of Wyllas, the little bit we got of Garlan and the goodness we finally got to see in Loras (the whole Brienne thing) gives me hope that they are better than their father.   I hope we learn a little more about the current Hightowers through them and maybe just maybe get their opinions about Marg.   If Garlan does get Nightfall he better earn it legitimately.  I'm very fond of The Reader and I'm loath to see his family lose this precious sword. 

I wonder how much input Olenna had in the raising of her grandchildren? I don't feel we know Alerie Hightower well enough to assess whether her influence was key (though Willas seems quite scholarly, and the Hightowers were founders of the Citadel).  But Olenna knows what she is about, and that seems to have made its way down to her grandchildren. 

I would like to meet the other Hightowers.  While I am not yet completely convinced over Septa Lemore's identity, Melora Hightower is the best explanation I have seen thus far. So we may already have met one. I would also like to know what Leyton Hightower has been doing for the last decade.  Apparently it involves spell books, but I think rather that it involves scrolls from the Citadel. All we know from Feast is this:

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds. (Prologue in Feast)

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash." (Sam V in Feast)

So there seems to be quite a few Hightowers around. As for Garlan, he may well battle Hotho Harlaw when the Ironborn land in the Reach. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Great, now you have me rethinking Dawn and dragonsteel.   I still think VS is dragonsteel.   What if Dawn is actually just exactly like the Others; swords?   Makes the Others aliens.   I'm not sure I like that, but I'll play.   It makes Dawn potentially a spoil of that encounter.   The last Other sword to fall and the victors kept it because it was cool or whatever.  Sending it all the way to Starfall would make a lot of sense if that was the way.   Except that the World Book is pretty decisive about the legend of Starfall and Dawn and all the Swords of the Morning and 1 Sword of the Evening.   I just tried to search ancestral Ice, but got nothing.   I seem to remember reading that ancestral Ice-that is Ice before VS Ice--was also a pale blade--I will let you know if I find it again.  

I am wondering now just when Valyrian Steel became common in Westeros.  If the original Ice was not Valyrian Steel, then what was it made of? I am hoping we will find out more about the Daynes generally in Winds. So far we have only really met Edric and Darkstar. I would like to meet more!

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

While searching for ancestral ice I did get to read the paragraph that describes the beheading.   Theon (I think it's Theon) describes Ice as "as tall as Robb" with the blade as wide as a man's hand.   Ned pulls Ice up over his head with 2 hands.    Yep, it's a monster.  

So, definitely seems useless in battle when you would require speed and would need to avoid a blade that was too heavy. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Me too, but it will be exciting to see some of these characters enter each other's orbits, too.   I am really looking forward to Dany and Tyrion actually meeting. 

That is one meeting I am looking forward to as well.  It will be interesting to see how she perceives him.  She has a lot of mistrust in her as a result of the House of the Undying and Quaithe's warnings, as well as the betrayal of Jorah - her most trusted ally.  And it would take a big jump for her to trust a Lannister.  Tyrion has to convince her that he wants to kill his family as much as she does.  If Barristan lives until the point where Daenerys returns to Meereen, then I can see him being someone that tries to bridge the gap between the two; even if Barristan did not like the Lannisters, he knows enough from his time at Court to realize how Tyrion was treated by his family.  I also see Tyrion stirring up trouble, for his own amusement, between Daenerys and Aegon.  

I think that Winds will be the book in which character locations and arcs really start to merge. I think Daenerys will leave Slaver's Bay (finally!!!) and head for Westeros; in the North, the various factions will come together at Winterfell etc. I also think Winds will be the book in which Arya returns to Westeros. By the end of Winds, I expect all the main characters to either be in Westeros or close by. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think this may be where the castles along the Wall come into play.   As of where we last left The Wall, Sentinel Stand, 3rd castle from the west end of the Wall, is still uninhabited.   I believe this is where the 79 sentinels were made to keep their eternal watch.   This never fails to conjure up visions of blood in the Wall for me.   I made a spreadsheet so you could see where the castles fall and who mans them.   Let me know if you would like me to send you a copy of it.   Essentially, most of the castles are manned.   A great deal is made about the cutting back of the forest at either Ice Mark or Grey Guard.  It's mentioned so many times that I am completely suspicious of the woods there.   As I am rereading ADWD again from the top, I really need Selyse to get moved into the Night Fort.   Just for my own satisfaction.  

I wonder sometimes if Selyse will ever move into the Nightfort.  She may want to escape Castle Black at all costs after Jon's stabbing, but there is something in me that finds it hard to see her there. I am not yet at the stage of figuring out which castles are manned - I will deal with that when I reach Dance. The cutting back of the woods is, I think, related to wildling raids.  When Jon climbs the Wall, hiding their ascent is easier because the trees have moved so close to the Wall and given them cover. It is as a result of this, I think, that he gives these orders. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I turned to the encyclopedia for reference on all these swords.    I learned that the hands measurement is really and truly how many hands it takes to move a sword according to the pommel.   A bastard sword is a modification of great swords and/or long swords.   Greatswords are monsters.   Bastard swords are usually just longer than long swords.  Long swords are manageable for full grown people.  Figure if the greatsword Ice was as tall as Robb, it was easily 5'6" tall, probably more.   The width of a man's hand is roughly 6".   That's a big blade.   Dark Sister is a long sword with a thin blade and probably a specialized pommel for a woman's hand.    It's still a lethal long sword, just a thinner blade, maybe not as thin as Needle, but certainly not 4" wide either. "The moon was a crescent, thin, and sharp as the blade of a knife" sums Dark Sister up rather nicely, I think.   I figure Widows Wail has to be fairly similar to Dark Sister in size as Oath Keeper does seem to be a big blade even though it's only classified as a long sword.   Ice and Heartsbane are monster big swords.    I imagine Longclaw is a pretty big sword, too, but not the epic largeness of Ice.   Blackfyre is no doubt a completely viable working sword in that it could be used in battle if needed and now I feel safe in saying the same for Lady Forlorn.   I still count 5 VS swords MIA.   Let me know if you pick on any hints at all.    I've given up on Brightroar and Lamentation.    I think they really are done for, never to be seen again.     However, we still need to find Truth, Vigilance, Dark Sister, Blackfyre and Orphanmaker.   Though I'm reasonably sure that Vigilance is still with the Hightowers.   . 

I think Blackfyre is now with the Golden Company.  I think Illyrio had it, and passed it on to Duck and Haldon when he met them and handed over Tyrion.  This is part of my theory that Illyrio is descended from Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. So, I think we will see Blackfyre resurface before the end of the series.  As for Dark Sister, you know I believe that to be with Bloodraven in the cave.  That sword will, I think, also come into play soon - and I think that Jon will wield it. 

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I do wonder at times how much of the history that has come down from the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age is accurate - particularly given the tendency for those at the Citadel to be so anti-magic (with exceptions, of course).  I know there is a theory that the last Long Night ended with a truce rather than a defeat of the Others. If that is the case, it could be that the return of the Others is linked to some breach or other in that truce; or, it could indicate that something holding the Others back no longer exists.  I guess we will find out more in Winds, now that Sam has so many reading possibilities in Oldtown.  That said, I don't think we will get a full picture until Dream.       If Winds ever comes out that is!  I seem to be missing Sam everywhere these days.  

I went back to Storm, when Arya encounters her for a description:

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?" (Arya IV in Storm)

There is also this section from the same chapter:

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen.

The smallfolk hereabouts shunned the place, Tom told her; it was said to be haunted by the ghosts of the children of the forest who had died here when the Andal king named Erreg the Kinslayer had cut down their grove. Arya knew about the children of the forest, and about the Andals too, but ghosts did not frighten her. (Arya IV in Storm)

At the moment, I am leaning towards her being a human dwarf.  Yes, she would be a great age, but it isn't impossible.  We know from The World of Ice and Fire that Duncan the Small met Jenny of Oldstones in 239AC, and that the Ghost of High Heart came to Court after their marriage. I would put her age-wise as being somewhere in her 90s - thereby estimating that she was in her twenties when she came to Court. She is described as a Woods Witch; no mention is made of her being old.  Not impossible, given that Maester Aemon lives past a hundred. And, Aemon dies when he leaves the Wall. I know there is the idea that ice preserves, but what if it was not the ice preserving him, but the closeness of the Old Gods? I know that Aemon would have worshipped the Seven, but he does speak up for the Old Gods.     90 isn't that old.   I was thinking more like 130, so yeah, she could totally be human.  I'm sure spending that much time around the grove would make a person particularly susceptible to dreams.  Who knows, possibly have a BR effect extending her life?   BR says greenseers have red or moss green eyes.  You know what's wrong this picture, Dame?  In the same place BR describes greenseers doesn't he also say their days are short?   90ish is not short days.  If BR is somewhere around 120 - 130 years old, what is his game?  Why give bad information to Bran?     

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. "Lord Slynt," he said, "this boy refused to swear his vows properly in the sept, but went beyond the Wall to say his words before a heart tree. His father's gods, he said, but they are wildling gods as well."

"They are the gods of the north, Septon." Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm. (Jon IX in Storm)

I agree that it is difficult to see Euron having the patience that Bran does.  He seems like someone who wants to be in control of others rather than be under the control of someone else.  Perhaps that is a result of the culture of the Iron Islands as much as his own personality? I guess I sort of see Euron as someone that has powers and wants to use them for his own ends.  I go back again to the mute crew and my comment that they would be unable to vocalize his warging of them (if, indeed, that was something he had done/attempted to do) and a curious parallel with Bran warging Hodor. Again, someone unable to vocalize it. I think Euron has studied magic just as much as Bloodraven was perceived to have done in the Dunk and Egg stories.   Thanks to that topic I mentioned I learned that some folks believe that Euron didn't sexually molest Aeron, but invaded his mind.    Since Hodor and Thistle are the only humans I know for sure have been warged I guess it's possible that some horror like this could be projected on a child fairly easily.   That's as bad as the other.  Yuck.  So I have to agree with you that a boat full of mutes wouldn't be able to say what was happening.  Then again, we do have Wex, don't we?  I have to admit that I have to look for potential plausibility in all these new ideas.   I think you're right about Euron studying on his own, following his evil bent to hell and bac to the Iron Islands.   Still this boat load full of mutes bothers me.  Is this what he ultimately intends for everyone?   

I also think that there is potentially some types of, or uses of, magic that we have yet to see and may encounter in Winds.   If you've never seen all the topics on various magics check them out.   I can only follow so far before they loose me to Drowned God and Storm Gods and all the rest.   Your careful mind would no doubt be able to follow and make a lot more sense of it than I can.   I have Ice and Fire and they are ponderous enough to me.  

I have not seen it, but will check the theory out.  I am trying to recall if The World of Ice and Fire had anything in it about dragons going north of the Wall. I know Queen Alysanne visited the Night's Watch, but I cannot recall visits north of that.  That said, we know Drogon goes off hunting in Dance, and so it is not impossible that a dragon hunted that far north.   I don't think there were any other recent visits.   AWOIAF does have a little blurb in it about ice dragons, but blows them off as myth.    I am thinking that maybe there were some prehistoric dragonesque creatures in Westeros.    A catastrophe such as Hardhome could have woken those as well as the Others or perhaps they were always there and the "event" caused them to come closer to the surface to be heard in the form of shrieking caves.  I just can't imagine what else would make that type of sound and just stay hidden in caves forever and a day.   There was some speculation that a clutch of eggs was laid during the king & queen's visit, but there are a lot of ideas where that clutch could be, but why not just throw that in...

As to Bloodraven being a good guy, there is this quote I like (partly because it links into similar thoughts Jon has in Dance):

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them. (The World of Ice and Fire)

I guess that could fit in with what you are saying?  Bloodraven is undoubtedly a powerful man, and magic is often misinterpreted. 

In truth, the legends of the skinchangers are many, but the most common—brought from beyond the Wall by men of the Night's Watch, and recorded at the Wall by septons and maesters of centuries past—hold that the skinchangers not only communicated with beasts, but could control them by having their spirits mingle. Even among the wildlings, these skinchangers were feared as unnatural men who could call on animals as allies. Some tales speak of skinchangers losing themselves in their beasts, and others say that the animals could speak with a human voice when a skinchanger controlled them. But all the tales agree that the most common skinchangers were men who controlled wolves—even direwolves—and these had a special name among the wildlings:wargs. (The World of Ice and Fire)

Of course, we know that this idea of wildlings being afraid of wargs is nonsense and more likely Maester Yandel imposing his opinion of what he perceives as being unnatural.

"A warg he may be," Ygritte said, "but that has never frightened us." Others shouted agreement. (Jon VIII in Clash)

"That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks." (Jon I in Storm)

I wonder also if the bit about animals speaking with human voices is reflected in Mormont's raven - a raven I believe Bloodraven wargs.  Also, I wonder if this is the significance of Ghost being mute? Will Jon warg him in Winds and howl for assistance?    Oh that's great! 

I went looking for information about the Warg Kings. I think the Starks had a tendency to kill off the men and marry the highest ranking female (thereby ridding the world of the name and male line, but bringing their powers into the Stark bloodline). 

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors. (The World of Ice and Fire)

It seems to suggest that the Blackwoods were expelled from the north, but in a power grab by the Starks more than anything else.   Right.   Just a few points on this.   The World Book is written with a clear prejudice against the Starks.  And what if the old Kings of Winter still knew the conditions of the Pact?   What if it wasn't a simple matter of conquering foes, but their whole job was to rid the north of the crazy magic and practitioners who perhaps contributed to the Long Night?  (They all believed and believe that the power of the blood is in the males)  I don't recall the Starks, in particular, having any great magic outside of Brandon the Builder and he was only 1 Stark.   I'm not even sure how to categorize BtB's gifts.   Still I'm sure it has something to do with building protective, defensible places.  In that I'm not a builder all I can offer is that my employer is finishing up the tallest structure west of the Mississippi which has taken a little over 2.5 years to complete.   It's 73 stories tall I think.  Surely that isn't The Wall, but it set a world record and is the only frame of reference I have.    This structure was planned and engineered.   I'm sure all these structures have something magical about them (the High Tower, Winterfell, Storm's End and The Wall), but I couldn't even begin to guess at what that magic is because there are no clues in BtB's descriptions.    It's got him at 9 years of age building Storm's End I think.   So maybe he wasn't magical at all, just a keen architect?   Outside of Bran the Builder all we really have are a bunch of pretty savage warriors in the Starks.  The World Book is either hiding their magic or hiding their agenda.  Or simply isn't aware of either.  

As for links between Bloodraven and the Ghost of High Heart, both seem to be albinos closely affiliated with the Old Gods and the Children of the Forest.  Beyond that...........it is impossible to know if they have ever met.   Sadly, that's all I've got, too.   I was really hoping you would say she's really Sheira Seastar.  

Yeah, that is pretty much where I am thus far.  I also wonder if Daenerys Stormborn was named by Rhaella in the hope that the Dornish would help her infant daughter and small son; a reminder of the familial ties that bound them.  You know that's actually a great insight.  Given Quentyn's old contract, I would endorse that thinking 100%.   I always thought it curious that Willem Darry signed the marriage contract with Dorne.   Perhaps it wasn't his idea entirely.    That's a good catch, Dame.  

I wonder how much input Olenna had in the raising of her grandchildren? I don't feel we know Alerie Hightower well enough to assess whether her influence was key (though Willas seems quite scholarly, and the Hightowers were founders of the Citadel).  But Olenna knows what she is about, and that seems to have made its way down to her grandchildren. 

I would like to meet the other Hightowers.  While I am not yet completely convinced over Septa Lemore's identity, Melora Hightower is the best explanation I have seen thus far. So we may already have met one. I would also like to know what Leyton Hightower has been doing for the last decade.  Apparently it involves spell books, but I think rather that it involves scrolls from the Citadel. All we know from Feast is this:

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds. (Prologue in Feast)

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash." (Sam V in Feast)

So there seems to be quite a few Hightowers around. As for Garlan, he may well battle Hotho Harlaw when the Ironborn land in the Reach. 

I am wondering now just when Valyrian Steel became common in Westeros.  If the original Ice was not Valyrian Steel, then what was it made of? I am hoping we will find out more about the Daynes generally in Winds. So far we have only really met Edric and Darkstar. I would like to meet more!  Neither ancestral Ice nor Lady Forlorn were VS, though the World Book misstates that Lady Forlorn is.   Ran said that was a typo or error of some sort.   The swords began appearing 500 years ago and I believe the most recent acquisition is said to be 300 years ago, or I'm just confusing Blackfyre and Dark Sister with existing Westerosi swords, either way, it's 300 years ago.   The Andals had iron.   The 1st men had bronze if I'm not mistaken.  It wouldn't be unreasonable for both swords to be made of the materials each culture was familiar working with...if the 1st Men actually made Ice and the Andals actually made Lady Forlorn.  I'm wondering what Dragonsteel really was 8000 years ago.   For all the World Book actually says about the Daynes we still don't have much to go on, Arthur's sterling reputation and indisputable skill, Ashara's beauty and a legendary sword.  Several Swords of the Morning and one Sword of the Evening.   Starfall was built where a meteor landed.   There has to be a lot more to it.   I'm hoping we get something anything about Dawn at least via the TOJ--I get returning the sword, I just don't get returning it right then and there.   Seems to me that getting Dawn back to the Daynes was more important than anything at that point.    With so many urgent matters at hand how did returning Dawn get to the top of the list over absolutely everything Ned had going on at the TOJ?  

So, definitely seems useless in battle when you would require speed and would need to avoid a blade that was too heavy.   Agreed, but if we can get Heartsbane to Wun Wun we're golden!  

That is one meeting I am looking forward to as well.  It will be interesting to see how she perceives him.  She has a lot of mistrust in her as a result of the House of the Undying and Quaithe's warnings, as well as the betrayal of Jorah - her most trusted ally.  And it would take a big jump for her to trust a Lannister.  Tyrion has to convince her that he wants to kill his family as much as she does.  If Barristan lives until the point where Daenerys returns to Meereen, then I can see him being someone that tries to bridge the gap between the two; even if Barristan did not like the Lannisters, he knows enough from his time at Court to realize how Tyrion was treated by his family.  I also see Tyrion stirring up trouble, for his own amusement, between Daenerys and Aegon.    Totally behind you except that last sentence.  I've read (in book reviews believe it or not) that Tyrion was playing both ends against the middle with Aegon.   But I didn't see it.   His advice seemed sound to me.  And I think he actually liked Aegon & Co.   Tyrion was in such a bad place, still all his evil thoughts are squarely centered on his family and the women he loved.    I perceived no indication that Tyrion was just having fun or leading Aegon astray.  That is where he feels important, dispensing that sage advice.   I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.  

I think that Winds will be the book in which character locations and arcs really start to merge. I think Daenerys will leave Slaver's Bay (finally!!!) and head for Westeros; in the North, the various factions will come together at Winterfell etc. I also think Winds will be the book in which Arya returns to Westeros. By the end of Winds, I expect all the main characters to either be in Westeros or close by.   I wish you could go to New Mexico and coauthor.  With all the show hype TWOW just feels further and further away.   Don't get me wrong, I've got show hype, I'm excited to see what's going to happen, I've got my top 4 sure to die characters and my 4 major plot points and 4 surprise twists locked and loaded.    It's still not quite what I want though.  You came to the books through the show.  You obviously love the books.   I'm sure you know what I mean. 

I wonder sometimes if Selyse will ever move into the Nightfort.  She may want to escape Castle Black at all costs after Jon's stabbing, but there is something in me that finds it hard to see her there. I am not yet at the stage of figuring out which castles are manned - I will deal with that when I reach Dance. The cutting back of the woods is, I think, related to wildling raids.  When Jon climbs the Wall, hiding their ascent is easier because the trees have moved so close to the Wall and given them cover. It is as a result of this, I think, that he gives these orders.    When I was replying to you last night I pulled my reference sheet up a couple of times then updated it a bit when I was done typing.   Marsh or one of the brothers tells Jon not to send Borroq to Stonewatch because those woods are full of boar and Borroq could make a warg boar army.    It was just a little throw away, but I have this heightened awareness for the castles and the woods bother me.  

I think Blackfyre is now with the Golden Company.  I think Illyrio had it, and passed it on to Duck and Haldon when he met them and handed over Tyrion.  This is part of my theory that Illyrio is descended from Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. So, I think we will see Blackfyre resurface before the end of the series.  As for Dark Sister, you know I believe that to be with Bloodraven in the cave.  That sword will, I think, also come into play soon - and I think that Jon will wield it.   Nearly everyone thinks Blackfyre is with Aegon courtesy Illyrio.   I'm no different in that.   I sure would like to know how Illyrio got his hands on it though.   Serra wouldn't have had it, would she?   I was under the impression Blackfyre sort of stayed with the GC.   This is a strange little twist, but maybe just more evidence of the Blackfyre history so many of us assume Illyrio and Varys share.   I think it's safe to predict DS is with BR.   I'm confident that Vigilance is still with the Hightowers, though it is curious that it hasn't been seen in so long.   Now we need to find Orphanmaker and Truth.    The fun part about that is that we really don't know where either of them are or could be--all we have is where it was last in the case of Orphanmaker and where it was originally in the case of Truth.   I've told you what I thought would be cool for Truth.   Given Gendry's station as a knight and blacksmth at a veritable orphanage, I am waiting for Gendry to identify and maybe clean Orphanmaker up.   I don't expect him to wield it, but I do expect him to know VS when he sees it even if it's old and beat up and been lost for a very long time.  

Reading your comments above and my own about AWOIAF isn't it funny how that blasted thing created more questions than it answered?   I could go for a new Dunk & Egg tale and Winds and Season 6 just about now.    Well,  we won't have to wait forever for at least 1 of them!   Thanks so much for the detailed descriptions of the GOHH, as well as your thoughts on so many things.  I loved your idea for Ghost and can't wait to tell my friend at work tomorrow about it.  

[dornishdame]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If Winds ever comes out that is!  I seem to be missing Sam everywhere these days.  

After the NY update, I am hopeful we will see Winds by the end of the year.  And yeah, we definitely do need some stuff from Sam - I want to know what he has been reading at the Citadel!!

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

90 isn't that old.   I was thinking more like 130, so yeah, she could totally be human.  I'm sure spending that much time around the grove would make a person particularly susceptible to dreams.  Who knows, possibly have a BR effect extending her life?   BR says greenseers have red or moss green eyes.  You know what's wrong this picture, Dame?  In the same place BR describes greenseers doesn't he also say their days are short?   90ish is not short days.  If BR is somewhere around 120 - 130 years old, what is his game?  Why give bad information to Bran?     

Trust little and less of what Bloodraven says!! I wonder if greenseers are as haunted by their dreams as dragon dreamers like Daeron the Drunken are? Daeron may ultimately have been killed by the pox, but I think even in The Hedge Knight it is clear that his dreams haunt him every day and he drinks his way through life to escape that.  Even the Ghost of High Heart is clearly haunted by her visions and the impact they have had (particularly, I think, with regards to Summerhall). I also wonder if it is a hint that Jojen is not long for this world, and Bloodraven wants Bran to think his death is natural? Not sure.  Bloodraven seems to be different as he exists because he has merged with the weirwood - I think he has prolonged his life through multiple magical means. As to spending time around the grove making someone susceptible to such dreams, it is when he sleeps up against a weirwood stump in Storm that Jaime has the following dream, which makes him resolve to return to Harrenhal for Brienne:

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. "I swore to keep you safe," the wench said stubbornly. "I swore an oath." Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. "Ser. Please. If you would be so good."

The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman's shape now.

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom."

In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. "I mislike this place."

"I'm not fond of it myself." Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. "My feet are wet."

"We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you'd have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth."

Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.

"Listen." She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She's warm. "Something comes." Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. "There."

He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .

"A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side."

"Down here, beneath the Rock?" It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

"Is it you, Stark?" Jaime called. "Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead."

Brienne touched his arm. "There are more."

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

"You don't frighten me," he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. "I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out."

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ."

"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!"

Heart pounding, he jerked awake, and found himself in starry darkness amidst a grove of trees. He could taste bile in his mouth, and he was shivering with sweat, hot and cold at once. When he looked down for his sword hand, his wrist ended in leather and linen, wrapped snug around an ugly stump. He felt sudden tears well up in his eyes. I felt it, I felt the strength in my fingers, and the rough leather of the sword's grip. My hand . . .(Jaime VI in Storm)

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks to that topic I mentioned I learned that some folks believe that Euron didn't sexually molest Aeron, but invaded his mind.    Since Hodor and Thistle are the only humans I know for sure have been warged I guess it's possible that some horror like this could be projected on a child fairly easily.   That's as bad as the other.  Yuck.  So I have to agree with you that a boat full of mutes wouldn't be able to say what was happening.  Then again, we do have Wex, don't we?  I have to admit that I have to look for potential plausibility in all these new ideas.   I think you're right about Euron studying on his own, following his evil bent to hell and bac to the Iron Islands.   Still this boat load full of mutes bothers me.  Is this what he ultimately intends for everyone? 

It is entirely possible this is what Euron was up to - and it is as creepy as molestation.  In some ways, if the person is fully aware of what is happening, it might even be worse.  I wonder if we will end up getting the Aeron sample chapter that has been much talked about? We might find more in there.  Wex was able to communicate via signs and signals, and even then I think he had been in White Harbor for a while before they got as much information out of him as they had.  I also think sustained exposure to this form of warging would render a person subservient to the person taking over their mind; think of how Hodor becomes less and less freaked out by Bran taking over his.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

AWOIAF does have a little blurb in it about ice dragons, but blows them off as myth.    

In other words, Yandel blows them off as myth.  It goes back to my point in a previous post about the anti-magic attitude of the Citadel.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What if it wasn't a simple matter of conquering foes, but their whole job was to rid the north of the crazy magic and practitioners who perhaps contributed to the Long Night?  (They all believed and believe that the power of the blood is in the males)  I don't recall the Starks, in particular, having any great magic outside of Brandon the Builder and he was only 1 Stark.   I'm not even sure how to categorize BtB's gifts.   Still I'm sure it has something to do with building protective, defensible places.  In that I'm not a builder all I can offer is that my employer is finishing up the tallest structure west of the Mississippi which has taken a little over 2.5 years to complete.   It's 73 stories tall I think.  Surely that isn't The Wall, but it set a world record and is the only frame of reference I have.    This structure was planned and engineered.   I'm sure all these structures have something magical about them (the High Tower, Winterfell, Storm's End and The Wall), but I couldn't even begin to guess at what that magic is because there are no clues in BtB's descriptions.    It's got him at 9 years of age building Storm's End I think.   So maybe he wasn't magical at all, just a keen architect?   Outside of Bran the Builder all we really have are a bunch of pretty savage warriors in the Starks.  The World Book is either hiding their magic or hiding their agenda.  Or simply isn't aware of either.  

Brandon the Builder......I sometimes wonder if maybe he was more than one person, and time and myth has condensed the achievements of a few into the achievements of a single man.  After all, it has been established that there have been a lot of Brandons in the Stark family! I did post a comment on another thread recently about Winterfell, and why the oldest Kings of Winter were at the bottom of the crypts; we are told that Winterfell has been built on over the centuries, so I feel that Brandon the Builder must have been involved in the groundwork, and others have built upon that over the centuries to make the Winterfell we see when we first meet the Starks in A Game of Thrones.  And you are right, we do need to consider the knowledge and bias of Yandel when considering the Starks in particular, given the Lannister anti-Stark feeling. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Sadly, that's all I've got, too.   I was really hoping you would say she's really Sheira Seastar.  

Nope, sadly I think Shiera Seastar is probably dead. Though I know there are theories that she is Quaithe and/or Melisandre's mother. I don't see her as the Ghost of High Heart at all - I like the idea that Jenny and the Ghost are either simply smallfolk or descendants of the old River kings. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Given Quentyn's old contract, I would endorse that thinking 100%.   I always thought it curious that Willem Darry signed the marriage contract with Dorne.   Perhaps it wasn't his idea entirely.    That's a good catch, Dame.  

I think Willem Darry making the marriage contract was possibly more to do with his recognizing - as Jon Connington does - that only the Dornish were truly powerful enough to defy the Iron Throne by supporting a Targaryen restoration. Everyone else lacked power or motive. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Neither ancestral Ice nor Lady Forlorn were VS, though the World Book misstates that Lady Forlorn is.   Ran said that was a typo or error of some sort.   The swords began appearing 500 years ago and I believe the most recent acquisition is said to be 300 years ago, or I'm just confusing Blackfyre and Dark Sister with existing Westerosi swords, either way, it's 300 years ago.   The Andals had iron.   The 1st men had bronze if I'm not mistaken.  It wouldn't be unreasonable for both swords to be made of the materials each culture was familiar working with...if the 1st Men actually made Ice and the Andals actually made Lady Forlorn.  I'm wondering what Dragonsteel really was 8000 years ago.   For all the World Book actually says about the Daynes we still don't have much to go on, Arthur's sterling reputation and indisputable skill, Ashara's beauty and a legendary sword.  Several Swords of the Morning and one Sword of the Evening.   Starfall was built where a meteor landed.   There has to be a lot more to it.   I'm hoping we get something anything about Dawn at least via the TOJ--I get returning the sword, I just don't get returning it right then and there.   Seems to me that getting Dawn back to the Daynes was more important than anything at that point.    With so many urgent matters at hand how did returning Dawn get to the top of the list over absolutely everything Ned had going on at the TOJ?  

I am hoping some of this stuff to do with Dawn and the Daynes will be resolved - at least partially - in Winds. As for Ned, I think that a part of it was guilt.  If you believe that Ashara was the one who told Ned where her brother was, returning his sword after killing him seems the least he could do.  I also think Ned felt a massive and genuine level of respect for the Kingsguard.  I know we cannot take his Tower of Joy dream literally, but he does seem to have been willing to allow them to leave unharmed.  All he wanted was Lyanna back. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Totally behind you except that last sentence.  I've read (in book reviews believe it or not) that Tyrion was playing both ends against the middle with Aegon.   But I didn't see it.   His advice seemed sound to me.  And I think he actually liked Aegon & Co.   Tyrion was in such a bad place, still all his evil thoughts are squarely centered on his family and the women he loved.    I perceived no indication that Tyrion was just having fun or leading Aegon astray.  That is where he feels important, dispensing that sage advice.   I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.  

I agree he does have a need to feel important - perhaps sending Aegon off was a way of ensuring that he, Tyrion, would be of more importance to Daenerys that Aegon and/or Jon Connington? His advice to Aegon seems sound, but I think it also plays on Aegon's personality and underlying sense of being a prince in spite of his disguise.  Even Jon Connington comes to realize that there is a princeling hidden under the disguise when they reach Griffin's Roost in the Griffin Reborn chapter in Dance. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

With all the show hype TWOW just feels further and further away.   Don't get me wrong, I've got show hype, I'm excited to see what's going to happen, I've got my top 4 sure to die characters and my 4 major plot points and 4 surprise twists locked and loaded.    It's still not quite what I want though.  You came to the books through the show.  You obviously love the books.   I'm sure you know what I mean. 

I know what you mean - it isn't quite the same thing as getting a new book. And I think ultimately I would take a new Dunk and Egg over a new season.  I intend to watch, but anticipate it with an equal measure of excitement and fear.

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

When I was replying to you last night I pulled my reference sheet up a couple of times then updated it a bit when I was done typing.   Marsh or one of the brothers tells Jon not to send Borroq to Stonewatch because those woods are full of boar and Borroq could make a warg boar army.    It was just a little throw away, but I have this heightened awareness for the castles and the woods bother me.  

Yeah, that is such a Bowen Marsh comment! He would freak if he had any conception of Jon's abilities or knew of his wolf dream in Clash. As would a lot of the Night's Watch men; their fear of the wildlings, magic and what is north of the Wall indicates that. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Nearly everyone thinks Blackfyre is with Aegon courtesy Illyrio.   I'm no different in that.   I sure would like to know how Illyrio got his hands on it though.   Serra wouldn't have had it, would she?   I was under the impression Blackfyre sort of stayed with the GC.   This is a strange little twist, but maybe just more evidence of the Blackfyre history so many of us assume Illyrio and Varys share.   I think it's safe to predict DS is with BR.   I'm confident that Vigilance is still with the Hightowers, though it is curious that it hasn't been seen in so long.   Now we need to find Orphanmaker and Truth.    The fun part about that is that we really don't know where either of them are or could be--all we have is where it was last in the case of Orphanmaker and where it was originally in the case of Truth.   I've told you what I thought would be cool for Truth.   Given Gendry's station as a knight and blacksmth at a veritable orphanage, I am waiting for Gendry to identify and maybe clean Orphanmaker up.   I don't expect him to wield it, but I do expect him to know VS when he sees it even if it's old and beat up and been lost for a very long time. 

If Illyrio is descended from Calla Blackfyre and Bittersteel as I currently suspect, then I guess it would make sense for him to have Blackfyre; a sword passed down the remaining descendants.  And in The Mystery Knight, one of the reasons some of the conspirators are getting antsy is that Bittersteel hasn't given Daemon II Blackfyre the sword. Perhaps that is an indication that it was Bittersteel personally - rather than the Golden Company - that controlled the sword.  Also, it is a Targaryen ancestral sword; surely it makes sense for the sword to remain within the family rather than it being handed over to a company of sellswords? I see it more as a family sword than a military unit sword, therefore it stays with a Blackfyre; and, given the Blackfyres are extinct in the male line, it would need to go down the female one. 

As for Gendry, I think we will see him again - and I do think his skills as a blacksmith may come into play. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Reading your comments above and my own about AWOIAF isn't it funny how that blasted thing created more questions than it answered?   I could go for a new Dunk & Egg tale and Winds and Season 6 just about now.    Well,  we won't have to wait forever for at least 1 of them!   Thanks so much for the detailed descriptions of the GOHH, as well as your thoughts on so many things.  I loved your idea for Ghost and can't wait to tell my friend at work tomorrow about it.  

I'm not sure my suggestion regarding Ghost is at all original - I know I have seen suggestions similar to that before.  But I had not picked up on the evidence in The World of Ice and Fire previously. 

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, dornishdame said:

After the NY update, I am hopeful we will see Winds by the end of the year.  And yeah, we definitely do need some stuff from Sam - I want to know what he has been reading at the Citadel!!    Hoping, hoping hoping...

Trust little and less of what Bloodraven says!! I wonder if greenseers are as haunted by their dreams as dragon dreamers like Daeron the Drunken are? Daeron may ultimately have been killed by the pox, but I think even in The Hedge Knight it is clear that his dreams haunt him every day and he drinks his way through life to escape that.  Even the Ghost of High Heart is clearly haunted by her visions and the impact they have had (particularly, I think, with regards to Summerhall). I also wonder if it is a hint that Jojen is not long for this world, and Bloodraven wants Bran to think his death is natural? Not sure.  Bloodraven seems to be different as he exists because he has merged with the weirwood - I think he has prolonged his life through multiple magical means. As to spending time around the grove making someone susceptible to such dreams, it is when he sleeps up against a weirwood stump in Storm that Jaime has the following dream, which makes him resolve to return to Harrenhal for Brienne:      This is precisely what I was thinking.   I hate the idea that BR is not a good guy.   But I can't argue the logic in your statement about Jojen.    I'm holding on the those last shreds of BR is ancient because f his Blackwood blood.   Not htat there is any logic to that, I simply can't stand the idea he isn't working for the good of the realm in this greenseer bit of his.   This of course opens us up to a whole conversation about sacrificing Bran for the good of the realm, but I still don't see how that could benefit anything.  

It is entirely possible this is what Euron was up to - and it is as creepy as molestation.  In some ways, if the person is fully aware of what is happening, it might even be worse.  I wonder if we will end up getting the Aeron sample chapter that has been much talked about? We might find more in there.  Wex was able to communicate via signs and signals, and even then I think he had been in White Harbor for a while before they got as much information out of him as they had.  I also think sustained exposure to this form of warging would render a person subservient to the person taking over their mind; think of how Hodor becomes less and less freaked out by Bran taking over his.  That is creepy when you think about Hodor resisting less and less.    I guess you could tie Euron into the Dusky Woman and all that, but I'm still getting over the mere idea of his great evil, much less trying to figure out who he's got control of.    This does intrigue insofar as those warlocks go, though.  

In other words, Yandel blows them off as myth.  It goes back to my point in a previous post about the anti-magic attitude of the Citadel.   Yes, Yandel blows them off as myth.  

Brandon the Builder......I sometimes wonder if maybe he was more than one person, and time and myth has condensed the achievements of a few into the achievements of a single man.  After all, it has been established that there have been a lot of Brandons in the Stark family! I did post a comment on another thread recently about Winterfell, and why the oldest Kings of Winter were at the bottom of the crypts; we are told that Winterfell has been built on over the centuries, so I feel that Brandon the Builder must have been involved in the groundwork, and others have built upon that over the centuries to make the Winterfell we see when we first meet the Starks in A Game of Thrones.  And you are right, we do need to consider the knowledge and bias of Yandel when considering the Starks in particular, given the Lannister anti-Stark feeling.   The World Book supposes the same about BtB being more than one person.    It makes a lot more sense to me than a 9 year old engineering Storm's End.   Still there are prodigies and if there really was only one BtB he would bear much closer investigation.   I have danced around all the structures a little bit and they are wonders of their world.  It nags me into wondering if building of some type was the Starks' special power or talent.   I like it but I can't prove anything.  I read a lot of  AWOIAF with a dash of skepticism because of its agenda.   I can't help but wonder how much that is "blown off" is actually true.   All that outlandish stuff Mushroom is supposed to have reported...Ah, those were crazy times in Westeros.  

Nope, sadly I think Shiera Seastar is probably dead. Though I know there are theories that she is Quaithe and/or Melisandre's mother. I don't see her as the Ghost of High Heart at all - I like the idea that Jenny and the Ghost are either simply smallfolk or descendants of the old River kings.  Sorry, Dame, it's been a long time between books.   I was just pulling your leg.  

I think Willem Darry making the marriage contract was possibly more to do with his recognizing - as Jon Connington does - that only the Dornish were truly powerful enough to defy the Iron Throne by supporting a Targaryen restoration. Everyone else lacked power or motive.  It's still brilliant and I love it.   This is such an exciting part of the story that is often overlooked.    Doran is no dummy.   He can't be fool enough to completely trust Arienne yet.   She's done nothing to prove herself.   I'm still hoping that Doran holds part of Dorne back for Dany.  

I am hoping some of this stuff to do with Dawn and the Daynes will be resolved - at least partially - in Winds. As for Ned, I think that a part of it was guilt.  If you believe that Ashara was the one who told Ned where her brother was, returning his sword after killing him seems the least he could do.  I also think Ned felt a massive and genuine level of respect for the Kingsguard.  I know we cannot take his Tower of Joy dream literally, but he does seem to have been willing to allow them to leave unharmed.  All he wanted was Lyanna back.   Interesting that you say Ned was willing to all the KG to leave unharmed.   I don't think there was any malice in Ned.  Still even he had to know the TOJ was a suicide mission.   Poisoned darts and magic nets aside, I really think it was Ned's sheer determination to rescue his sister that got him past the 1st step at the TOJ.   He had to know the KG would not just give Lyanna up.    There should have been some other better way to work that whole thing out.   I hope that even seeing it 3rd hand we will get to see the conversation between Ned and Lyanna and maybe some of Ned's thoughts at the time--perhaps a prayer before or after.   And I can't stand waiting for Jon to learn all this stuff.   I'm as interested in how he learns and what he learns.    A lot of people think the readers will know but Jon will stay in the dark.    I don't have any fun at all with that so I am hoping he does find the truth.   As to the Dayne's, it's really anyone's guess at this point, but I am so with you on wanting something more about them.  They are obviously integral to the story.  It's time to start placing all the pieces on the board.  

I agree he does have a need to feel important - perhaps sending Aegon off was a way of ensuring that he, Tyrion, would be of more importance to Daenerys that Aegon and/or Jon Connington? His advice to Aegon seems sound, but I think it also plays on Aegon's personality and underlying sense of being a prince in spite of his disguise.  Even Jon Connington comes to realize that there is a princeling hidden under the disguise when they reach Griffin's Roost in the Griffin Reborn chapter in Dance.  It does, but Tyrion has no way of guaranteeing Dany would do more than have him beheaded.    He often muses about this out loud.    I'm not saying Tyrion wasn't manipulating the situation and you offer a reasonable purpose for it.   I just read the manipulation to be good advice for Aegon.   This little triangle between Aegon, Dany and Tyrion will be interesting to watch unfold.   I am looking forward to Dany dealing with Tyrion as a dragon rider.    I'm not sure dragon riders consider each other "equal" but he will certainly surprise her and Aegon, if he lives long enough to see it.    Ok, watching everyone dealing with Tyrion being a dragon rider!  And if he turns out not to be it will still be interesting to watch him counsel Dany, if in fact that is his destiny in the story.  

I know what you mean - it isn't quite the same thing as getting a new book. And I think ultimately I would take a new Dunk and Egg over a new season.  I intend to watch, but anticipate it with an equal measure of excitement and fear.   I think that's the wisest way to approach it.

Yeah, that is such a Bowen Marsh comment! He would freak if he had any conception of Jon's abilities or knew of his wolf dream in Clash. As would a lot of the Night's Watch men; their fear of the wildlings, magic and what is north of the Wall indicates that.  Isn't Marsh a bastard name?    He's such a small little numbers guy with no clue about the big picture.    But then again, look at whom the brothers chose to lead them in Jon's absence after Jeor's death.   Slynt?   Ugh.   I think there is a lot more of their old selves at play in their Nights Watch.   It is not so easy to forget a lifetime of fear and prejudice compounded by more fear and prejudice against a perceived enemy.    TBH, I was surprised he had the nerve to stab Jon.  

If Illyrio is descended from Calla Blackfyre and Bittersteel as I currently suspect, then I guess it would make sense for him to have Blackfyre; a sword passed down the remaining descendants.  And in The Mystery Knight, one of the reasons some of the conspirators are getting antsy is that Bittersteel hasn't given Daemon II Blackfyre the sword. Perhaps that is an indication that it was Bittersteel personally - rather than the Golden Company - that controlled the sword.  Also, it is a Targaryen ancestral sword; surely it makes sense for the sword to remain within the family rather than it being handed over to a company of sellswords? I see it more as a family sword than a military unit sword, therefore it stays with a Blackfyre; and, given the Blackfyres are extinct in the male line, it would need to go down the female one.  Well yes, in that light BF would need to pass hand to hand.    I could have been thinking of the golden skull and assumed the sword would just stay with Bittersteel.   That's pretty silly now that I see it in type.  

As for Gendry, I think we will see him again - and I do think his skills as a blacksmith may come into play. I hope he makes an appearance again in the show, too.    What is there not to like about Gendry?   

I'm not sure my suggestion regarding Ghost is at all original - I know I have seen suggestions similar to that before.  But I had not picked up on the evidence in The World of Ice and Fire previously.   Too late, she loved it, too.    Even if it's not your original idea, you brought it up to us and we thankee, Sai Dame!  

 

[dornishdame]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is precisely what I was thinking.   I hate the idea that BR is not a good guy.   But I can't argue the logic in your statement about Jojen.    I'm holding on the those last shreds of BR is ancient because f his Blackwood blood.   Not htat there is any logic to that, I simply can't stand the idea he isn't working for the good of the realm in this greenseer bit of his.   This of course opens us up to a whole conversation about sacrificing Bran for the good of the realm, but I still don't see how that could benefit anything.  

I like the idea that Blackwood blood generally is significant and contains some sort of magical properties. They are a fascinating House, and one I would like to know more about, tbh. Hoster Blackwood seems like an interesting character, but given Jaime left his camp not long after picking up Hos, I am not sure how much more we will see of him.  I wonder if it is significant that Jon has Blackwood blood on both sides of his family (Aegon V's wife was Betha Blackwood and Lord Rickard's paternal grandmother was Melantha Blackwood - would also be interesting to know how they are related)? They certainly have a huge symbolic link with ravens; I do think generally that Bloodraven gets his magical tendencies from his maternal side.  I am thinking more and more that the maternal line is important in Westerosi genetics. 

As for sacrificing Bran for the good of the realm......arguable that is what Bloodraven thinks he is doing with the death of Aenys Blackfyre.  Hopefully we find out more about the Blackwoods, their magic and Bloodraven's motives in Winds. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That is creepy when you think about Hodor resisting less and less.    I guess you could tie Euron into the Dusky Woman and all that, but I'm still getting over the mere idea of his great evil, much less trying to figure out who he's got control of.    This does intrigue insofar as those warlocks go, though.  

The warlocks Euron picks up appear to be those leftover from Daenerys's story arc in Clash; it will be interesting to see how they fit in with Euron and his plot to make Daenerys his wife. Did they have an impact on his decision-making process regarding Daenerys and going back to the Iron Islands to take the Seastone Chair? 

As for the warging humans, I know that I have said before that Bran needs to be taught not just how powerful he is, but the morality and ethics that come along with it.  Again, more hopes for Winds!! I do wonder sometimes - mostly due to this section of Dance - what side Bran is being trained up for:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. (Melisandre I in Dance)

There is also this bit later in the same chapter that sort of links in:

Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. (Melisandre I in Dance)

Bran's continued warging of Hodor concerns me, particularly given that Bloodraven has to realize what is going on. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The World Book supposes the same about BtB being more than one person.    It makes a lot more sense to me than a 9 year old engineering Storm's End.   Still there are prodigies and if there really was only one BtB he would bear much closer investigation.   I have danced around all the structures a little bit and they are wonders of their world.  It nags me into wondering if building of some type was the Starks' special power or talent.   I like it but I can't prove anything.  I read a lot of  AWOIAF with a dash of skepticism because of its agenda.   I can't help but wonder how much that is "blown off" is actually true.   All that outlandish stuff Mushroom is supposed to have reported...Ah, those were crazy times in Westeros.  

In a way, that is part of what I like about The World of Ice and Fire - trying to figure out what is true and what is myth. As for Brandon the Builder, I think the idea of him actually being multiple people sort of fits in with the idea that Azor Ahai etc will turn out to be more than one person (and yet history will assign all their collective deeds into that of a single person). It may not be building as such that the Starks were talented at, but something that their magics helped with - I'm thinking protective spells of some description, given that the Wall prevents Others from passing and the castles they build seem to be fortresses (keeping people out of certain places with magic? - not sure).

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is such an exciting part of the story that is often overlooked.    Doran is no dummy.   He can't be fool enough to completely trust Arienne yet.   She's done nothing to prove herself.   I'm still hoping that Doran holds part of Dorne back for Dany.  

I love all things related to the Dornish plot, but I think Doran's story has a tragedy about it.  He is so cautious because he wants to make sure any course of action he takes is the right one.  He lives in dread of making the wrong move and I think without Oberyn would never have made one at all.  I think the marriage contract had Oberyn signing for Dorne so that Doran could - if necessary - deny all knowledge of it. Again, Quentyn's departure is so low key that Doran risks the lives of his son, and his companions, as well as making it less likely that Daenerys will accept.  He wants to destroy his enemies and knows something of what is going on at Court - but is entirely unsure what to do with his information.

I think he will have little choice but to trust Arianne.  And he has at least acted wisely by separating her from the Sand Snakes.   Doran may hold part of Dorne back for Daenerys (there are hints in the Arianne spoiler chapters for Winds that it was Daenerys their attention had been focused on) but I think events could overtake him.  If word slips out of Slaver's Bay of Quentyn's demise and Daenerys's marriage to Hizdahr, and/or Doran's health begins to decline, then he may be pushed to throw all his support behind Aegon.  I know of the theory that Arianne and Aegon will marry and reign briefly in King's Landing.  It is plausible - again, if news that Daenerys has married Hizdahr reaches Westeros, then Aegon is back on the marriage market and Jon Connington could see an Aegon-Arianne match as doubly securing Dornish support.  So much in Winds will, I think, depend on who finds out what and when they find it out. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Interesting that you say Ned was willing to all the KG to leave unharmed.   I don't think there was any malice in Ned.  Still even he had to know the TOJ was a suicide mission.   Poisoned darts and magic nets aside, I really think it was Ned's sheer determination to rescue his sister that got him past the 1st step at the TOJ.   He had to know the KG would not just give Lyanna up.    There should have been some other better way to work that whole thing out.   I hope that even seeing it 3rd hand we will get to see the conversation between Ned and Lyanna and maybe some of Ned's thoughts at the time--perhaps a prayer before or after.   And I can't stand waiting for Jon to learn all this stuff.   I'm as interested in how he learns and what he learns.    A lot of people think the readers will know but Jon will stay in the dark.    I don't have any fun at all with that so I am hoping he does find the truth.   As to the Dayne's, it's really anyone's guess at this point, but I am so with you on wanting something more about them.  They are obviously integral to the story.  It's time to start placing all the pieces on the board.  

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.(Eddard X in Thrones)

I think this is a hint that Ned was giving them an opportunity to surrender to him peacefully; it was not an option the Kingsguard took.  As a result, Ned continues:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. (Eddard X in Thrones)

Again, Ned gives them an out by mentioning that Viserys and Rhaella have fled to Dragonstone and are clearly in need of protection. Ned had a great deal of respect for these three men, and their deaths haunt him years later. The Tower of Joy chapter begins thus:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (Eddard X in Thrones)

This is a recurring dream that has haunted Ned as much as the lies he has been forced to tell since that day.  He clearly states his belief that the greatest knight ever was Ser Arthur Dayne.  I cannot believe given both the text and what we know more generally of Ned's sense of honor that he would want to kill these men. I could believe that of a Tywin but never Ned. 

As for Jon finding out, I think he has to. The theme of identity is a huge one in his arc, and it would be incomplete if he did not find out his true parentage.  And this feeds into the concept of Jon being more wolfish and therefore aggressive when he returns to his body in Winds. He will be extremely angry at Ned for lying to him, for raising him to believe that his father was a bad person (sort of by default; Ned had to stick to the Robert Baratheon-sponsored version of history for Jon's safety, but it does not reflect well on Rhaegar), and for placing him in a situation where his entire sense of identity was based on a lie. I have no idea how he finds out. My best guess is that he suspects after finally completing his Winterfell dream while warging Ghost, and later has it confirmed by Howland. 

And the Daynes seem to be a big, big part of this story.  I can't wait to find out what. Back when the five year jump was planned, I think Edric Dayne was probably earmarked as the next Sword of the Morning. I wonder if that will be the case in Winds?

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It does, but Tyrion has no way of guaranteeing Dany would do more than have him beheaded.    He often muses about this out loud.    I'm not saying Tyrion wasn't manipulating the situation and you offer a reasonable purpose for it.   I just read the manipulation to be good advice for Aegon.   This little triangle between Aegon, Dany and Tyrion will be interesting to watch unfold.   I am looking forward to Dany dealing with Tyrion as a dragon rider.    I'm not sure dragon riders consider each other "equal" but he will certainly surprise her and Aegon, if he lives long enough to see it.    Ok, watching everyone dealing with Tyrion being a dragon rider!  And if he turns out not to be it will still be interesting to watch him counsel Dany, if in fact that is his destiny in the story.  

Tyrion seems to spend most of Dance regretting the break with Tysha and trying to figure out whether he wants to live or not. That sort of thing impacts on your decision-making process and for Tyrion it made him lash out.  The advice was good, but nevertheless had its drawbacks. 

Dragonriders...........given Daenerys "birthed" the dragons in the sense that she was responsible for the eggs hatching, and that she will ride Drogon - the largest dragon - I think she would consider herself to be even a little bit superior to the other two. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Isn't Marsh a bastard name?    He's such a small little numbers guy with no clue about the big picture.    But then again, look at whom the brothers chose to lead them in Jon's absence after Jeor's death.   Slynt?   Ugh.   I think there is a lot more of their old selves at play in their Nights Watch.   It is not so easy to forget a lifetime of fear and prejudice compounded by more fear and prejudice against a perceived enemy.    TBH, I was surprised he had the nerve to stab Jon.  

According to the Wiki, House Marsh are a minor Northern House.  So, Bowen would be a legitimate member of that House.  Him joining the Watch voluntarily would make sense, given that those of Northern families are most likely to do that.  

I think we need not only look at the Slynt situation, but that of Waymar Royce. If we look at what Jeor Mormont says of him:

"I sent Benjen Stark to search after Yohn Royce's son, lost on his first ranging. The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I." (Tyrion III in Thrones)

As much as we are told that men leave their old lives behind when they join the Night's Watch, there is a respect there for those from old families; they are given preferential treatment and seen as leaders - much as they would in an army. And that was representative of the quasi-medieval setting of the series.  

"Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant," said Ser Alliser. "He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord." (Jon IX in Storm)

Janos is addressed as my lord repeatedly throughout his time on the Wall. As former Lord of Harrenhal - a castle that, as Cotter Pyke (love that man!) so helpfully points out, he has never seen - he is deemed to be the social superior of the vast majority of men.  And that seems to entitle him to rule in Marsh's absence.  

As for Marsh stabbing Jon, bemused has an interesting theory that the plot was engineered by Ser Alliser Thorne. If that is the case, then Marsh would act knowing he had a powerful protector. 

I would also add that the quote above from Thorne also raises the issue of Alliser Thorne's attitude towards Benjen Stark. And the cause of it. Was it by something that happened at the Wall? Benjen being made First Ranger when Thorne had been at the Wall longer? Or, was it to do with why Thorne was a member of the Night's Watch?

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." (Tyrion III in Thrones)

If Thorne blamed the Starks for him ending up on the Wall (reasoning - as a loyal Targaryen supporter - that if Lyanna hadn't gone off with Rhaegar then there would have been no conflict in the first place) then it would explain his clear dislike of Benjen and, later, his conviction that Tywin's side was the right one to end up on. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Well yes, in that light BF would need to pass hand to hand.    I could have been thinking of the golden skull and assumed the sword would just stay with Bittersteel.   That's pretty silly now that I see it in type.  

For a long time, I thought Illyrio had the sword but didn't consider why.  Now, I think it just makes sense that the sword stays with the family.  It was Bittersteel that founded the Golden Company to bind the exiles together, not a Blackfyre. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What is there not to like about Gendry?   

Nothing as far as I can tell!

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I like the idea that Blackwood blood generally is significant and contains some sort of magical properties. They are a fascinating House, and one I would like to know more about, tbh. Hoster Blackwood seems like an interesting character, but given Jaime left his camp not long after picking up Hos, I am not sure how much more we will see of him.  I wonder if it is significant that Jon has Blackwood blood on both sides of his family (Aegon V's wife was Betha Blackwood and Lord Rickard's paternal grandmother was Melantha Blackwood - would also be interesting to know how they are related)? They certainly have a huge symbolic link with ravens; I do think generally that Bloodraven gets his magical tendencies from his maternal side.  I am thinking more and more that the maternal line is important in Westerosi genetics.   If BR , the Mormont women and Illyrio can be taken as fair examples of this I would be inclined to agree with you.

As for sacrificing Bran for the good of the realm......arguable that is what Bloodraven thinks he is doing with the death of Aenys Blackfyre.  Hopefully we find out more about the Blackwoods, their magic and Bloodraven's motives in Winds.   I hate this Dame.   But it does make sense.   I still hope BR is misunderstood.   Folks make quite a bit about BR not owning up to being the 3EC when Bran meets him and asks.  It's entirely probable that BR doesn't have the knowledge or power many assume he does.  Perhaps he just doesn't understand that the 3EC is the form he take in dreams.  Perhaps the 3EC something completely separate from BR.  I read the killing of Aenys as a personal sacrifice BR made.   Dishonorable on all public accounts to be sure, but still done with the best intentions.   If BR is as committed to this greenseer thing as he was to stopping the Blackfyres (like he has a choice now that he's part tree) there is a good chance that he will do hard things in seeing it through.   I can't see any reason for BR to sidestep the 3EC or comprehend Bran's power (yet).   BR is among the most fascinating characters in this tale of many fascinating characters. 

The warlocks Euron picks up appear to be those leftover from Daenerys's story arc in Clash; it will be interesting to see how they fit in with Euron and his plot to make Daenerys his wife. Did they have an impact on his decision-making process regarding Daenerys and going back to the Iron Islands to take the Seastone Chair?   You know, I always assumed Euron learned about Dany from the warlocks.   Hadn't ever occurred to me that they would be part of the plot.  That's downright juicy.  

As for the warging humans, I know that I have said before that Bran needs to be taught not just how powerful he is, but the morality and ethics that come along with it.  Again, more hopes for Winds!! I do wonder sometimes - mostly due to this section of Dance - what side Bran is being trained up for:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.  

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. (Melisandre I in Dance)

There is also this bit later in the same chapter that sort of links in:

Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. (Melisandre I in Dance)

Bran's continued warging of Hodor concerns me, particularly given that Bloodraven has to realize what is going on.    You've made the part about the boy with the wolf head howling and the blood emitting from Mel together.   Why Dame?   How do these things correspond? Why is the black smoke significant?   Honestly I only read these passages to give some indication of Mel's 1) ability to see BR & Bran and 2) offer some detail on Mel's magic and 3) offer some background on Mel.   I'm wide open, lay it on me.    

In a way, that is part of what I like about The World of Ice and Fire - trying to figure out what is true and what is myth. As for Brandon the Builder, I think the idea of him actually being multiple people sort of fits in with the idea that Azor Ahai etc will turn out to be more than one person (and yet history will assign all their collective deeds into that of a single person). It may not be building as such that the Starks were talented at, but something that their magics helped with - I'm thinking protective spells of some description, given that the Wall prevents Others from passing and the castles they build seem to be fortresses (keeping people out of certain places with magic? - not sure).  I thought I figured something out recently.    The whole AA story is smoke and mirrors.   A long convoluted tale that misleads the reader into thinking the sword and all it's forging are the point.    It's not.   Nissa Nissa's willing sacrifice is the point.   It's not about love, it's about willing sacrifice.    So I understand about trying to separate fact (right) from myth in all these tales within a tale.  I like this idea of yours that a defensive or protective form of magic may be the Stark superpower.   It would have been right under our nose all along.   It has driven me nuts since I first read the Stark tale as related in AWOIAF.   First thought I had was hmph, these guys stole everyone else's power?  I think not.   The Stark direwolf sigil is where I've always looked for their power, trying to connect these seemingly powerless Starks with the magic wolves and their words, Winter is coming.   Still I imagine all that came much later where their magic had to be innate.  I like the premise of protective powers.    This is very good.

I love all things related to the Dornish plot, but I think Doran's story has a tragedy about it.  He is so cautious because he wants to make sure any course of action he takes is the right one.  He lives in dread of making the wrong move and I think without Oberyn would never have made one at all.  I think the marriage contract had Oberyn signing for Dorne so that Doran could - if necessary - deny all knowledge of it. Again, Quentyn's departure is so low key that Doran risks the lives of his son, and his companions, as well as making it less likely that Daenerys will accept.  He wants to destroy his enemies and knows something of what is going on at Court - but is entirely unsure what to do with his information. . 

I think he will have little choice but to trust Arianne.  And he has at least acted wisely by separating her from the Sand Snakes.   Doran may hold part of Dorne back for Daenerys (there are hints in the Arianne spoiler chapters for Winds that it was Daenerys their attention had been focused on) but I think events could overtake him.  If word slips out of Slaver's Bay of Quentyn's demise and Daenerys's marriage to Hizdahr, and/or Doran's health begins to decline, then he may be pushed to throw all his support behind Aegon.  I know of the theory that Arianne and Aegon will marry and reign briefly in King's Landing.  It is plausible - again, if news that Daenerys has married Hizdahr reaches Westeros, then Aegon is back on the marriage market and Jon Connington could see an Aegon-Arianne match as doubly securing Dornish support.  So much in Winds will, I think, depend on who finds out what and when they find it out.   I totally get Doran's quiet, careful passion.   I expect a great deal of that has been channeled into preparation.  Doran isn't rash or hot tempered.   He is an even, thoughtful guy playing a very long game here.   I think if anyone would have the ability to understand what really happened with Quentyn it is Doran.  At any rate, I hope Arienne has matured a whole lot since Dance.   She seems more cautious in the sample chapter so we shall see if she's worthy or not.  I would still expect Doran to want to inspect Aegon for himself. 

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.(Eddard X in Thrones)

I think this is a hint that Ned was giving them an opportunity to surrender to him peacefully; it was not an option the Kingsguard took.  As a result, Ned continues:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. (Eddard X in Thrones)

Again, Ned gives them an out by mentioning that Viserys and Rhaella have fled to Dragonstone and are clearly in need of protection. Ned had a great deal of respect for these three men, and their deaths haunt him years later. The Tower of Joy chapter begins thus:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (Eddard X in Thrones)

This is a recurring dream that has haunted Ned as much as the lies he has been forced to tell since that day.  He clearly states his belief that the greatest knight ever was Ser Arthur Dayne.  I cannot believe given both the text and what we know more generally of Ned's sense of honor that he would want to kill these men. I could believe that of a Tywin but never Ned.   Yes, I agree, still the KG were honor bound to their part in the TOJ.   They really couldn't accept the out.  

As for Jon finding out, I think he has to. The theme of identity is a huge one in his arc, and it would be incomplete if he did not find out his true parentage.  And this feeds into the concept of Jon being more wolfish and therefore aggressive when he returns to his body in Winds. He will be extremely angry at Ned for lying to him, for raising him to believe that his father was a bad person (sort of by default; Ned had to stick to the Robert Baratheon-sponsored version of history for Jon's safety, but it does not reflect well on Rhaegar), and for placing him in a situation where his entire sense of identity was based on a lie. I have no idea how he finds out. My best guess is that he suspects after finally completing his Winterfell dream while warging Ghost, and later has it confirmed by Howland.   I once began a short lived topic addressing how Jon would get into the crypts at Winterfell.    I think the 4th response I received was perfect and I called it a day after that.   So you see Jon (in Ghost) in the crypts?  This dream seems to warn him off the crypts and  leaves him believing he has no place among the dead Starks--it doesn't offer him anything else.    Do you think Jon will find some tangible proof of his identity?  

And the Daynes seem to be a big, big part of this story.  I can't wait to find out what. Back when the five year jump was planned, I think Edric Dayne was probably earmarked as the next Sword of the Morning. I wonder if that will be the case in Winds?  As I open up to the possibility that Euron may actually be the foil for Bran I'm hoping Darkstar isn't a foil for House Dayne or Edric and Allyria.   As we lose some truly  great antagonists in Roose, Ramsay, Cersei and Lord Walder the tale nearly demands even more formidable opponents for the remaining protagonists.    I would expect everyone agrees that Euron's dark role will expand, but he can't be the bad guy for everyone.    Darkstar may be salvageable as a decent bad guy and perhaps some of the Sand Snakes.    Beyond that I think I need to meet more characters.   And we still have frickin' Little Finger, that dastardly bugger.    Speaking of potential bad guys, I'm really looking forward to seeing Varys next. Where will he turn up?  Kings Landing, Pentos, Mereen or some place no one has even imagined yet.   Sinve I'm in Dance I notice an awful lot of talk and fear of The Weeper.    Maybe he's got some mad evil skill or power to make utter mayhem north of The Wall?  

Tyrion seems to spend most of Dance regretting the break with Tysha and trying to figure out whether he wants to live or not. That sort of thing impacts on your decision-making process and for Tyrion it made him lash out.  The advice was good, but nevertheless had its drawbacks. 

Dragonriders...........given Daenerys "birthed" the dragons in the sense that she was responsible for the eggs hatching, and that she will ride Drogon - the largest dragon - I think she would consider herself to be even a little bit superior to the other two.   Yes I was rather expecting that, but I do think that the dragon riders will command something from Dany.   Trust? Loyalty? Fondness?  Fear? Relief? She's never so much as tried to encourage anyone to bond with them.   I think she will be jealous a little bit.  

According to the Wiki, House Marsh are a minor Northern House.  So, Bowen would be a legitimate member of that House.  Him joining the Watch voluntarily would make sense, given that those of Northern families are most likely to do that.  

I think we need not only look at the Slynt situation, but that of Waymar Royce. If we look at what Jeor Mormont says of him:

"I sent Benjen Stark to search after Yohn Royce's son, lost on his first ranging. The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I." (Tyrion III in Thrones)

As much as we are told that men leave their old lives behind when they join the Night's Watch, there is a respect there for those from old families; they are given preferential treatment and seen as leaders - much as they would in an army. And that was representative of the quasi-medieval setting of the series.  

"Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant," said Ser Alliser. "He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord." (Jon IX in Storm)

Janos is addressed as my lord repeatedly throughout his time on the Wall. As former Lord of Harrenhal - a castle that, as Cotter Pyke (love that man!) so helpfully points out, he has never seen - he is deemed to be the social superior of the vast majority of men.  And that seems to entitle him to rule in Marsh's absence.  

As for Marsh stabbing Jon, bemused has an interesting theory that the plot was engineered by Ser Alliser Thorne. If that is the case, then Marsh would act knowing he had a powerful protector.   Yes, I believe I've read that theory.    bemused is always so much fun to read.  Even if Thorne was the instigator, I still have a really hard time listening to this worry wart Marsh actually find the nerve to stab anyone.  

I would also add that the quote above from Thorne also raises the issue of Alliser Thorne's attitude towards Benjen Stark. And the cause of it. Was it by something that happened at the Wall? Benjen being made First Ranger when Thorne had been at the Wall longer? Or, was it to do with why Thorne was a member of the Night's Watch?

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." (Tyrion III in Thrones)

If Thorne blamed the Starks for him ending up on the Wall (reasoning - as a loyal Targaryen supporter - that if Lyanna hadn't gone off with Rhaegar then there would have been no conflict in the first place) then it would explain his clear dislike of Benjen and, later, his conviction that Tywin's side was the right one to end up on.   Makes complete sense to me.  

For a long time, I thought Illyrio had the sword but didn't consider why.  Now, I think it just makes sense that the sword stays with the family.  It was Bittersteel that founded the Golden Company to bind the exiles together, not a Blackfyre.   It does absolutely.   As I said, it was the golden skull that tricked me!  

Nothing as far as I can tell!   Think we'll ever see Hot Pie again?

Always engaging and interesting and so well presented, Dame.    Thanks for all your thoughts as we while away our 25 remaining days...

[bemused]

I'm here where I shouldn't be right now. 

I had a few things I wanted to contribute, but It's late and I'm exhausted, so I'll just mention one..

Have you given thought to the original Ice ? I haven't pursued the swords much, but I know that some speculate that it might be in the WF crypts. I don't know what, in particular, that's founded on, or if it just seems reasonable, but I had this marked out for something else...

(I think Theon's sensitivity to the supernatural traces back to his true dream of the feast of the dead before the sack of WF, and that dream was surely influenced by Bloodraven, since it showed him deaths he could not have heard of. Following the dream...)

Come dawn, he dressed and went outside, to walk along the outer walls.A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes.  ... ... The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine. ... 

Why is "Stark's sword" included here ? No Stark sword is visible, and Ned's sword went with him to King's Landing.No sword figured in the previous night's dream. ... But what if we just moved the position of the apostrophe - Starks' wood, Starks' castle, Starks' sword , Starks' gods. This is their place not mine. ... Now the "their" refers to Starks instead of or, as well as the wood, castle, sword, and gods.. and the sentiment, "This is their place, not mine", is one that has usually been repeated, in various ways, in reference to being in the crypts.

Maybe this has already been well covered in sword theory, but FWIW...