Merging Story Lines

[Jonathan N]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah, that was some good stuff from Whitewolf.   Thanks for weighing in, Hos.  I sort of want Cersei to go broken and completely alone, miserable and still blaming Tyrion for everything.   I'm going with bittersweet here--he goes to put the nail in her coffin and she's already checked out, depriving both of them of the honor of killing the other.  She takes all the teeth out of his quest for revenge.   They both lose.  I'm oddly attached to Cersei, she's such a train wreck.   I'm curious to find out what her breaking point is exactly.  

I know I am about to state the obvious, but I would say losing her children will be Cersei's breaking point.

[Curled Finger]

37 minutes ago, Jonathan N said:

I know I am about to state the obvious, but I would say losing her children will be Cersei's breaking point.

For a normal woman with normal motives I would agree with you, Jonhathan N.   But I don't think she loves them at all.   I think she loves them as far as they are extensions of herself and power.   They serve her and that's about it.   Doesn't mean she isn't fond of them or even used to them.   I just don't think she's capable of love at all.    She just wants the power.   That's my take on her anyway.   So I'm thinking it will take much more than that inconvenience for Cersei to lose it.  I think Tyrion is the thing she dreads and fears and has given all the power to.  I expect losing the remaining children will be the next to last thing to make her freak completely out.   Honestly, I know it's morbid, but I want to see if Cersei will see any angle once her obvious paths to power are gone.   Yah, hard, no doubt.   That's nothing compared to what I think about Cat.    At least I enjoy Cersei.   Moment brought to you by She Queen Mother Haters Club.  

[dornishdame]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

For a normal woman with normal motives I would agree with you, Jonhathan N.   But I don't think she loves them at all.   I think she loves them as far as they are extensions of herself and power.   They serve her and that's about it.   Doesn't mean she isn't fond of them or even used to them.   I just don't think she's capable of love at all.    She just wants the power.   That's my take on her anyway.   So I'm thinking it will take much more than that inconvenience for Cersei to lose it.  I think Tyrion is the thing she dreads and fears and has given all the power to.  I expect losing the remaining children will be the next to last thing to make her freak completely out.   Honestly, I know it's morbid, but I want to see if Cersei will see any angle once her obvious paths to power are gone.   Yah, hard, no doubt.   That's nothing compared to what I think about Cat.    At least I enjoy Cersei.   Moment brought to you by She Queen Mother Haters Club.  

I don't know.....I think that her love for her children is the only redeeming thing there is about Cersei. That said, I think she has inherited Tywin's belief that children should reflect the wishes of their parents (though I think she ignores that as regards Tywin's wishes for her). While Cersei's pride is evident from Thrones, we don't get to see inside her head until Feast - after Joffrey's death. 

In Feast, although we do not get to see the Maggy the Frog prophecy until Cersei VIII, we first have mention of her in Cersei's third chapter when Olenna reminds Cersei of her during Margaery and Tommen's wedding:

Whenever Cersei looked at the old crone, the face of Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that's all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna's nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy's tent again. She could still remember the smell of it, redolent with queer eastern spices, and the softness of Maggy's gums as she sucked the blood from Cersei's finger. Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Cersei glanced past Tommen, to where Margaery sat laughing with her father. She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I. The world was full of fools, however. So was her son's court.

But as we do not have a Cersei POV prior to Joffrey's death, we cannot know for sure how much Cersei thought of the prophecy before the loss of her son. Interestingly, when we first learn of Maggy, it is in relation to The Younger and More Beautiful Queen - not The Valonqar (though Cersei mentions my twisted little valonqar in her first POV chapter, she does not place it in context - it is only in relation to the YaMBQ that she mentions the seer). Cersei seems to have gone as far as to push Melara into a well to rid herself of the only other person to hear Maggy's words -

She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. 

But the point I keep coming back to in my head is did she think about the prophecy much before Joffrey's death? Was it something she regularly came back to in her mind? Or, did she chillingly recall it as she watched her eldest son choke? Cersei is prideful in the first three books, certainly. She dispays a sense of superiority to everyone she deals with. But it is only in Feast that we see her come more than a little unhinged.  And as it is only at this stage we access her POV, it is hard to tell if this is a product of Joffrey's death, or something that has always been there. 

Moving forward, I have said before that I think Cersei's fall will, to an extent, mirror that of Anne Boleyn. In January 1535/6 (at this time the year commenced on Lady Day, March 25th) a pregnant Anne danced in yellow following confirmation that Catherine of Aragon had died. It seemed as if no-one could challenge her as Henry's wife as he no longer had another living. By the end of the month, a fall from his horse had left Henry unconscious for around forty-eight hours and Anne had miscarried (a result, she said, of courtiers incorrectly advising her that Henry was dead). In May 1536, Anne was arrested, tried and executed - all less than five months after she felt 'safe'.

Similarly, I think that Cersei will win her trial against the Faith Militant and - with Kevan dead - be restored to the same level of power, if not greater, than before. And it is then, I believe, that she will start to lose everything in quick succession. The Dornish are considering siding with Aegon/(f)Aegon and whatever Doran and Arianne decide, the Dornish people want justice for Elia and Oberyn - and there is a Lannister in Dorne, without Kingsguard protection now that Balon Swann is hunting Darkstar. Myrcella's murder at the hands of a vengeful Dornishman or Dornishwoman is not an impossibility. The death of another of her children will, I think, unhinge Cersei even further. And once all her children are dead, she will have gone from feeling safe to having nothing in a short period of time.  If, as GRRM has said, there are to be multiple occupants of the Iron Throne before the end of the series, then Winds would be a logical starting point for that. I think it will be in Winds that we really start to see the thundering fall of the Lannisters. That said, I can see Cersei making an attempt to hold onto power even after all her children are dead. Unlike Daenerys in Meereen, Cersei does not hold the Iron Throne by right of conquest - and unlike Daenerys's claim to the Iron Throne, she does not claim it by blood. Her claim to power rests solely on her position as Robert's wife and (supposed) mother to his children.

Finally - this has turned out to be a much longer post than I had envisaged! - I would add that while it seems that the valonqar element of the Maggy the Frog prophecy is likely to be self-fulfilling in that Cersei has repeatedly tried to rid herself of Tyrion in ways that make it more likely that he will kill her, I think it is the YaMBQ element of the prophecy that will actually turn out to be self-fulfilling. In Feast, it is clear that the Tyrells - more specifically, Mace - are unhappy with their lack of power in Cersei's new regime. It is not until Kevan takes over and installs the likes of Mace, Randyll and Paxter that the Tyrells have a decent power block in the Small Council. Should the Tyrells be removed from the Small Council (likely now that Kevan and Pycelle are dead and Cersei has an opportunity to gain back the power she has lost) and uncover Cersei's scheming to have Margaery arrested and executed, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Lannister and Tyrell alliance may come to an end. With Tommen and Margaery's marriage unconsummated, it would be possible to revoke the union. And, in a flash, it becomes clear that Cersei has removed her key allies and armed the Faith, who are hostile to her rule. And so, the YaMBQ would have taken all from Cersei without the younger queen doing much herself.  

 

[Nevets]

On 1/25/2016 at 8:03 PM, Curled Finger said:

Winterwolf Stark, thanks so much for giving your ideas on all our active POVs.  That's a lot of work and I'm awed.  You sure went in some directions I haven't yet seen so I have to ask, do you think Blood Raven, the real Blood Raven, is alive and a good guy?   Does your idea about Bran ID'ing this imposter tie in with the Euron was a student of BR's?   I've sort of seen Arienne assimilating POVs too as she seems to be in the right place for absorption.  As you are aware this is something of an older thread...it's fascinating to watch predictions for Arya, Dany and Cersei diversify so much.    Arya joining Dany does seem to be how more and more folks are perceiving both their returns.   At least you let Cersei live and that's something!   I don't recall ever seeing anyone make badass Asha pregnant, but the whole concept of Asha being the one to foil Euron and bring him low is my personal favorite and it's so interesting that you don't make her the shadow in Theon's story.  But after Davos' death...

You mention of Jon and Jamie (and Theon) no longer needing POVs because their conflicts of the heart have concluded isn't something I'd ever considered, so thanks for that, it gives me something to chew on as to reasons why POVs would be eliminated while the character lives.   Though I hope you're wrong about Theon and he is able to redeem himself in 1st person.  

I could go on point for point but think your ideas stand alone without my commentary, thanks so much for your time in this. 

I was planning to quote Winterwolf Stark,, but oh, well. My turn to offer suggestions as to where the story is going.

The Stark Kids - Sansa, Arya, and Bran are involved in pretty obvious coming-of-age stories.  In order for their stories to truly move forward, they need to break free of their mentors, and do things on the own, for their own reasons.

Arya - Leaves the FM. I think she is already on thin ice after the events of the preview chapter, and I suspect she will be pushed out, or choose to leave.  She will choose to reclaim her identity.  This wil be brought about by either a threat to Needle, or by a meeting with Jeyne Poole, who is likely headed to Braavos.  My belief is that Jeyne could be the catalyst that leads her to decide to become Arya Stark again.  In this case she will move to Westeros, most likely the Riverlands to join her wolf, but possibly the North.  I also think she will eventually put aside her desire for vengeance, possibly after meeting Ilyn Payne, who is on her list but shouldn't be.  Yes, I'm an optimist.

Sansa - Her job is to take down Littlefinger.  I honestly don't see her story heading to KL as a prisoner.  Been there, done that.  More likely she stays in the Vale for a time or heads to Winterfell. Her realm is the political, but more of a sense of noblesse oblige than ambition.  I don't think she will marry Aegon, as neither really offers the other anything worthwhile.

Bran - Is destined to make a decision whether or not to leave the cave.  I think he leaves.  Effectively, it's something of a dead end for him.  Getting information out is difficult, and I think he may be able to use the heart tree at Winterfell for some of his activities.

Davos - Winds up at Hardhome, and is our POV for the evacuation.  This may occur before or after he finds Rickon, but I think his story in WOW will deal with the far North.  The search for Rickon is, I think, a false trail laid by GRRM, and he will head up to the Land of Always Winter, possibly at Benjen's instigation.

Jon and the North - Jon will return to the story relatively quickly, and the Wall story will merge with that of Winterfell   I think Theon is gone by the end, and Asha will be a major POV.  Other than that, who knows.

Cersei and Arianne's stories merge, but I honestly don't see Cersei surviving through the end.  I don't know who the valonqar is, but I like Loras for it.  He has motive, considering what she did to Margaery.

Jaime / Brienne - Brienne survives.  Don't know about Jaime.  His story may be over.  In any case, this story will likely merge with either the Vale or KL.  Brienne's story is connected with the Starks, so will likely end up with one or both of the girls.

Sam will cover the Citadel and the invasion of the Ironborn.

The battle of Meereen will end with Tyrion in charge of Meereen at least for a time.  Dany collects the Dothraki and eventually moves toward Westeros. She arrives near the end of WOW.  As you can tell, I have little interest in this story

The Others begin attacking the Wall about halfway through and breach it toward the end.

POVs remaining at the end; Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Davos, Samwell,Brienne(?), Asha, Arriane.  Other POVs are either dead (Jaime, Cersei, Theon at least) or lose POV status.

That's all for now.  It is but merely speculation on my part, but I actually think some of this will happen.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I don't know.....I think that her love for her children is the only redeeming thing there is about Cersei. That said, I think she has inherited Tywin's belief that children should reflect the wishes of their parents (though I think she ignores that as regards Tywin's wishes for her). While Cersei's pride is evident from Thrones, we don't get to see inside her head until Feast - after Joffrey's death. 

In Feast, although we do not get to see the Maggy the Frog prophecy until Cersei VIII, we first have mention of her in Cersei's third chapter when Olenna reminds Cersei of her during Margaery and Tommen's wedding:

Whenever Cersei looked at the old crone, the face of Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that's all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna's nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy's tent again. She could still remember the smell of it, redolent with queer eastern spices, and the softness of Maggy's gums as she sucked the blood from Cersei's finger. Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Cersei glanced past Tommen, to where Margaery sat laughing with her father. She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I. The world was full of fools, however. So was her son's court.

But as we do not have a Cersei POV prior to Joffrey's death, we cannot know for sure how much Cersei thought of the prophecy before the loss of her son. Interestingly, when we first learn of Maggy, it is in relation to The Younger and More Beautiful Queen - not The Valonqar (though Cersei mentions my twisted little valonqar in her first POV chapter, she does not place it in context - it is only in relation to the YaMBQ that she mentions the seer). Cersei seems to have gone as far as to push Melara into a well to rid herself of the only other person to hear Maggy's words -

She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. 

But the point I keep coming back to in my head is did she think about the prophecy much before Joffrey's death? Was it something she regularly came back to in her mind? Or, did she chillingly recall it as she watched her eldest son choke? Cersei is prideful in the first three books, certainly. She dispays a sense of superiority to everyone she deals with. But it is only in Feast that we see her come more than a little unhinged.  And as it is only at this stage we access her POV, it is hard to tell if this is a product of Joffrey's death, or something that has always been there. 

Moving forward, I have said before that I think Cersei's fall will, to an extent, mirror that of Anne Boleyn. In January 1535/6 (at this time the year commenced on Lady Day, March 25th) a pregnant Anne danced in yellow following confirmation that Catherine of Aragon had died. It seemed as if no-one could challenge her as Henry's wife as he no longer had another living. By the end of the month, a fall from his horse had left Henry unconscious for around forty-eight hours and Anne had miscarried (a result, she said, of courtiers incorrectly advising her that Henry was dead). In May 1536, Anne was arrested, tried and executed - all less than five months after she felt 'safe'.

Similarly, I think that Cersei will win her trial against the Faith Militant and - with Kevan dead - be restored to the same level of power, if not greater, than before. And it is then, I believe, that she will start to lose everything in quick succession. The Dornish are considering siding with Aegon/(f)Aegon and whatever Doran and Arianne decide, the Dornish people want justice for Elia and Oberyn - and there is a Lannister in Dorne, without Kingsguard protection now that Balon Swann is hunting Darkstar. Myrcella's murder at the hands of a vengeful Dornishman or Dornishwoman is not an impossibility. The death of another of her children will, I think, unhinge Cersei even further. And once all her children are dead, she will have gone from feeling safe to having nothing in a short period of time.  If, as GRRM has said, there are to be multiple occupants of the Iron Throne before the end of the series, then Winds would be a logical starting point for that. I think it will be in Winds that we really start to see the thundering fall of the Lannisters. That said, I can see Cersei making an attempt to hold onto power even after all her children are dead. Unlike Daenerys in Meereen, Cersei does not hold the Iron Throne by right of conquest - and unlike Daenerys's claim to the Iron Throne, she does not claim it by blood. Her claim to power rests solely on her position as Robert's wife and (supposed) mother to his children.

Finally - this has turned out to be a much longer post than I had envisaged! - I would add that while it seems that the valonqar element of the Maggy the Frog prophecy is likely to be self-fulfilling in that Cersei has repeatedly tried to rid herself of Tyrion in ways that make it more likely that he will kill her, I think it is the YaMBQ element of the prophecy that will actually turn out to be self-fulfilling. In Feast, it is clear that the Tyrells - more specifically, Mace - are unhappy with their lack of power in Cersei's new regime. It is not until Kevan takes over and installs the likes of Mace, Randyll and Paxter that the Tyrells have a decent power block in the Small Council. Should the Tyrells be removed from the Small Council (likely now that Kevan and Pycelle are dead and Cersei has an opportunity to gain back the power she has lost) and uncover Cersei's scheming to have Margaery arrested and executed, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Lannister and Tyrell alliance may come to an end. With Tommen and Margaery's marriage unconsummated, it would be possible to revoke the union. And, in a flash, it becomes clear that Cersei has removed her key allies and armed the Faith, who are hostile to her rule. And so, the YaMBQ would have taken all from Cersei without the younger queen doing much herself.  

 

You are such a poet, Dame...and your compassion shines through in everything you write.  Everything you say above could be completely true and I still wouldn't see it.   I think Sweet Cersei is a sociopath, incapable of loving anyone or caring much about anything beyond herself.  I can take that with most characters in most genres, but I cannot just let it slide with parents.  Particularly with parents who have so much personal worth invested in being the parent of said royal child.  Cersei was bad news at what? 8 years-old when she was pinching infant Tyrion's penis to make him cry.   She and Melara were 10? 12? when Cersei decided she didn't want her best friend telling anyone the prophesy and simply pushed her down a well and let her die screaming?  She was totally willing to poison Tommen before allowing him to face failure in her battle.    She has this twisted narcissism that allows her to genuinely believe herself to be one thing when in truth she is far less, as a daughter, a wife, a sister, lover, queen and mother.   She uses her children as much as any other person at large, as a means to an end.   

Cersei indulged that horror Joffrey.  She was riding the gravy train.   Sure she could have some sense of loss or grief, but it's fleeting for people of her bent.   She clings to Tommen because he is her last shot--this is the kid she was planning to poison after the Battle of the Blackwater.   I see nothing in her behavior toward Tommen that indicates she has any interest in him beyond maintaining her control of him.  

Maggy's prophesies were probably the first words ever spoken to Cersei contrary to what she wanted to hear.  And they were mean words, don't get me wrong.   You cry or pout or hit something when someone is just mean, you don't push your best friend down a well to keep the contrary words quiet.   So I totally agree with you that the prophesy surely messed with her head, but the child was broken before Maggy came along.  She's been on a trajectory to fulfill every word of it by her own decisions.   As you so beautifully point out, it is the vanity side of the prophesy that is our entrance.   The younger, more beautiful queen.   She's put this on Marg and it drives her nuts.   The valonqar is an after thought.   As Cersei descends into the madness of alcoholism, power, grief, lust--all of it--she needs to blame something for her power loss and weight gain and the dismissive remarks of her father and brother.   She rallies support from the same father and brother by targeting her chosen valonqar, Tyrion.   

Of course your endgame scenario is totally plausible.  She's become such a bumbling fool, but maybe smarter after her imprisonment and walk.  Perhaps a bit more patient and I really do hope she wises up in order to make that last stab at the power she wants so badly.   So I can watch her crushing end.   Cersei is one of the few really bad guys in my book, and I can't help but love this about her because of really bad guys like Gregor or Ramsay.  She's a more subtle bad which I do expect to be darker and savvier in the story to come.   It's like she can't help it no matter what she does.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I was planning to quote Winterwolf Stark,, but oh, well. My turn to offer suggestions as to where the story is going.

The Stark Kids - Sansa, Arya, and Bran are involved in pretty obvious coming-of-age stories.  In order for their stories to truly move forward, they need to break free of their mentors, and do things on the own, for their own reasons.

Arya - Leaves the FM. I think she is already on thin ice after the events of the preview chapter, and I suspect she will be pushed out, or choose to leave.  She will choose to reclaim her identity.  This wil be brought about by either a threat to Needle, or by a meeting with Jeyne Poole, who is likely headed to Braavos.  My belief is that Jeyne could be the catalyst that leads her to decide to become Arya Stark again.  In this case she will move to Westeros, most likely the Riverlands to join her wolf, but possibly the North.  I also think she will eventually put aside her desire for vengeance, possibly after meeting Ilyn Payne, who is on her list but shouldn't be.  Yes, I'm an optimist.

Sansa - Her job is to take down Littlefinger.  I honestly don't see her story heading to KL as a prisoner.  Been there, done that.  More likely she stays in the Vale for a time or heads to Winterfell. Her realm is the political, but more of a sense of noblesse oblige than ambition.  I don't think she will marry Aegon, as neither really offers the other anything worthwhile.

Bran - Is destined to make a decision whether or not to leave the cave.  I think he leaves.  Effectively, it's something of a dead end for him.  Getting information out is difficult, and I think he may be able to use the heart tree at Winterfell for some of his activities.

Davos - Winds up at Hardhome, and is our POV for the evacuation.  This may occur before or after he finds Rickon, but I think his story in WOW will deal with the far North.  The search for Rickon is, I think, a false trail laid by GRRM, and he will head up to the Land of Always Winter, possibly at Benjen's instigation.

Jon and the North - Jon will return to the story relatively quickly, and the Wall story will merge with that of Winterfell   I think Theon is gone by the end, and Asha will be a major POV.  Other than that, who knows.

Cersei and Arianne's stories merge, but I honestly don't see Cersei surviving through the end.  I don't know who the valonqar is, but I like Loras for it.  He has motive, considering what she did to Margaery.

Jaime / Brienne - Brienne survives.  Don't know about Jaime.  His story may be over.  In any case, this story will likely merge with either the Vale or KL.  Brienne's story is connected with the Starks, so will likely end up with one or both of the girls.

Sam will cover the Citadel and the invasion of the Ironborn.

The battle of Meereen will end with Tyrion in charge of Meereen at least for a time.  Dany collects the Dothraki and eventually moves toward Westeros. She arrives near the end of WOW.  As you can tell, I have little interest in this story

The Others begin attacking the Wall about halfway through and breach it toward the end.

POVs remaining at the end; Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Davos, Samwell,Brienne(?), Asha, Arriane.  Other POVs are either dead (Jaime, Cersei, Theon at least) or lose POV status.

That's all for now.  It is but merely speculation on my part, but I actually think some of this will happen.

Was it my lucky week or what?   Thanks Nevets. I can't resist a little commentary and question round in this.   You are in the minority with Arya coming to the Riverlands.   If you go back a page you can see some interesting speculation about Arya heading toward Dany.   It's an interesting twist, but I think Arya has some very important business in the Riverlands, too. I see things in store for Arya that I don't think anyone else can pull off.  Wherever she goes, it will be very exciting.  Most thrilling Davos prediction yet, KUDOS!  There is so much story ahead.   I haven't picked a favorite for valonqar yet, though I do think Tyrion deserves to be the guy, but Loras has as much reason as anyone else so I'm glad to see you haven't written him off.  Again, we seem to be in the minority expecting Bran to go wandering beyond the cave.   I need Jamie and Brienne to survive, OK, Nevets?  They are so good together and I can't wait to see what they come up with for LSH.  Do you think Sam will just stay in Oldtown?  Oh and get some Dany hype, it really is a good story, you just have to read it half dozen times and start calling every name you can't pronounce Bob. Worked for me.   Thanks so much for your thoughts and ideas.   I know it's a lot of work to write all that out.   Just know that over here in this little corner of the forum I sure appreciate the effort.   Come back with any new thoughts you have. 

[Fitzochris01]

Quote

Samwell the drowned crow was last seen being lured to rickety bridge of the Isle of Ravens by a faceless man, with presumably sinister intent.  I believe that's the last we will see of Sam through his own POV.  When we next see Sam, it will be through the POV of other characters upon his union or re-union with them.  These other POVs will not be in a position to be certain to his identity, in a world of facless men, glamors and dopplegangers.  I think GRRM intends us readers to be in the same boat.  We will find out if Sam really survived, or got replaced by a faceless man, when the other POV characters do.

Huh? When did that happen? Last I read, 'Pate' merely introduced himself while showing Sam to his quarters.

[dornishdame]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You are such a poet, Dame...and your compassion shines through in everything you write.  Everything you say above could be completely true and I still wouldn't see it.   I think Sweet Cersei is a sociopath, incapable of loving anyone or caring much about anything beyond herself.  I can take that with most characters in most genres, but I cannot just let it slide with parents.  Particularly with parents who have so much personal worth invested in being the parent of said royal child.  Cersei was bad news at what? 8 years-old when she was pinching infant Tyrion's penis to make him cry.   She and Melara were 10? 12? when Cersei decided she didn't want her best friend telling anyone the prophesy and simply pushed her down a well and let her die screaming?  She was totally willing to poison Tommen before allowing him to face failure in her battle.    She has this twisted narcissism that allows her to genuinely believe herself to be one thing when in truth she is far less, as a daughter, a wife, a sister, lover, queen and mother.   She uses her children as much as any other person at large, as a means to an end.   

Cersei indulged that horror Joffrey.  She was riding the gravy train.   Sure she could have some sense of loss or grief, but it's fleeting for people of her bent.   She clings to Tommen because he is her last shot--this is the kid she was planning to poison after the Battle of the Blackwater.   I see nothing in her behavior toward Tommen that indicates she has any interest in him beyond maintaining her control of him.  

I am not saying that Cersei is a good mother (if I had a child then I would not treat him/her in an way similar to that in which Cersei treats her children). That does not preclude her loving her children, albeit in a warped manner that involves her wanting them to do as she says, and to project her perception of what their lives should be. And - not that I am in any way defending her - perhaps we should also remember that Cersei grew up in a world in which a prideful Aerys was king. Even if she considers him to be well-deserving of his 'Mad King' moniker, we cannot discount the possibility that it clouded her judgment on what was/was not acceptable behavior for a king. 

I need to check my copy of Clash, but I think that the thing with poisoning Tommen might only have been in the TV show? Its a while since I read back the Blackwater stuff so I could be wrong. 

As for her treatment of Tyrion and Melara - I completely agree with what you are saying. In both cases she has gone a long way towards trying to justify abhorrent acts of violence. To those that Cersei does not care for, or who cross her, she is merciless. She tells Taena that she wants to be her friend, and in the same breath says that she will hand her over to Qyburn if there is a hint of betrayal. And that is why I said the love she bears her children is her sole redeeming factor (albeit an extremely warped form of love).

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Of course your endgame scenario is totally plausible.  She's become such a bumbling fool, but maybe smarter after her imprisonment and walk.  Perhaps a bit more patient and I really do hope she wises up in order to make that last stab at the power she wants so badly.   So I can watch her crushing end.   Cersei is one of the few really bad guys in my book, and I can't help but love this about her because of really bad guys like Gregor or Ramsay.  She's a more subtle bad which I do expect to be darker and savvier in the story to come.   It's like she can't help it no matter what she does.  

I don't know - part of me thinks that while she might be slightly more subtle, I think she will certainly be more vengeful. Those who try to prevent her from returning to power following the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle will learn that crossing her has serious consequences. And that will contribute towards her downfall. If (or, in my opinion, when) Ser Robert Strong defeats the Faith's champion, she will be in a position to push forward and to think that she has won power back from the Faith. That will not be the reality, but rather her perception of it. I do also wonder if she will develop the same paranoia Aerys did after his imprisonment in Duskendale, and remain within the secure confines of the Red Keep?

[Nevets]

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Was it my lucky week or what?   Thanks Nevets. I can't resist a little commentary and question round in this.   You are in the minority with Arya coming to the Riverlands.   If you go back a page you can see some interesting speculation about Arya heading toward Dany.   It's an interesting twist, but I think Arya has some very important business in the Riverlands, too. I see things in store for Arya that I don't think anyone else can pull off.  Wherever she goes, it will be very exciting.  Most thrilling Davos prediction yet, KUDOS!  There is so much story ahead.   I haven't picked a favorite for valonqar yet, though I do think Tyrion deserves to be the guy, but Loras has as much reason as anyone else so I'm glad to see you haven't written him off.  Again, we seem to be in the minority expecting Bran to go wandering beyond the cave.   I need Jamie and Brienne to survive, OK, Nevets?  They are so good together and I can't wait to see what they come up with for LSH.  Do you think Sam will just stay in Oldtown?  Oh and get some Dany hype, it really is a good story, you just have to read it half dozen times and start calling every name you can't pronounce Bob. Worked for me.   Thanks so much for your thoughts and ideas.   I know it's a lot of work to write all that out.   Just know that over here in this little corner of the forum I sure appreciate the effort.   Come back with any new thoughts you have. 

Thanks. You're the first person to even respond to my Davos prediction.  Everyone expects an in-and-out mission, and I think it's going to be far more complicated than that.

First thing to remember about ASOIAF - George doesn't believe in writing the obvious, at least so far as the casual reader is concerned.

Second thing to remember - If the majority of readers expect something to happen, it is probably the obvious choice.

Arya - If you're not an attentive reader, it seems obvious that she will remain with the FM.  I see no reason for her to do so.  Becoming adequately trained would take a huge amount of time, and it puts her at the command of someone else, which effectively dead-ends her story.  As I said before, she needs to be her own player for her story to have real resonance.

While I see a connection between Arya and Dany, I see no reason for Arya as a character to seek her out.  The FM won't send her because she is untrained and probably regarded as untrustworthy and I see no reason for Arya to have any personal interest in her.  She has connections to the Riverlands in particular, and even in the North.  She might even find it interesting that there are Northerners willing to fight, kill, and die for her.

Davos - How did I figure this out?  As Tyrion responded when asked how he knew Tywin's plans; "I looked at a map".  Skagos is on the way to Hardhome, and to get there, you have to pass Eastwatch, where ships are being pressed into service.  I have a theory that Benjen is in the far north, either spying on or negotiating with the Others, and has either gone to Hardhome, or sent someone with a message. George has said we will see the Land of Always Winter, and this makes more sense to me than trying to do it through Bran or Ghost.

Bran - Whether or not to leave the cave will be his "story of the heart in conflict with itself."  He will have to make a choice.  I think he will leave, simply because I do not think his story remaining there would be all that interesting.  By the way, I think Arya's "story of the heart in conflict" has to do with her retaining her identity, and also on whether to continue on the path of vengeance 

Sam - He will probably visit Horn Hill.  With respect to the fight against the Others, he will go where he think he can  do the most good.  His cowardice is gone, if it was ever really there.  He will remain in Oldtown if he thinks there are answers there, otherwise he will join the fight.

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I am not saying that Cersei is a good mother (if I had a child then I would not treat him/her in an way similar to that in which Cersei treats her children). That does not preclude her loving her children, albeit in a warped manner that involves her wanting them to do as she says, and to project her perception of what their lives should be. And - not that I am in any way defending her - perhaps we should also remember that Cersei grew up in a world in which a prideful Aerys was king. Even if she considers him to be well-deserving of his 'Mad King' moniker, we cannot discount the possibility that it clouded her judgment on what was/was not acceptable behavior for a king. 

I need to check my copy of Clash, but I think that the thing with poisoning Tommen might only have been in the TV show? Its a while since I read back the Blackwater stuff so I could be wrong. 

As for her treatment of Tyrion and Melara - I completely agree with what you are saying. In both cases she has gone a long way towards trying to justify abhorrent acts of violence. To those that Cersei does not care for, or who cross her, she is merciless. She tells Taena that she wants to be her friend, and in the same breath says that she will hand her over to Qyburn if there is a hint of betrayal. And that is why I said the love she bears her children is her sole redeeming factor (albeit an extremely warped form of love).

I don't know - part of me thinks that while she might be slightly more subtle, I think she will certainly be more vengeful. Those who try to prevent her from returning to power following the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle will learn that crossing her has serious consequences. And that will contribute towards her downfall. If (or, in my opinion, when) Ser Robert Strong defeats the Faith's champion, she will be in a position to push forward and to think that she has won power back from the Faith. That will not be the reality, but rather her perception of it. I do also wonder if she will develop the same paranoia Aerys did after his imprisonment in Duskendale, and remain within the secure confines of the Red Keep?

Remind me not to get on the other side of you during a discussion about Cat.  The difference between us is that I am a parent, more than once or twice.  Kids suck, but they do become your life.  It is hard enough not to screw them up when you're trying to do the right thing, much less someone who only produces them to profit.   And yes, I suppose there is some of that social superiority and poor role modeling Cersei was raised with to consider. I'll offer up the old stand by, she wasn't the only one raised under these extraordinary circumstances.   Still at some point your children become products of your soul not simply your body.   I see none of this in Cersei's parenting or thought.   I still think she's just a sociopath and I don't believe she loves anyone.   I believe Tommen and Jamie love her, but she doesn't actually love them beyond what she gains.   I really would like a little more of what's going on in Myrcella's head.  Tell me Dame, if you had this little boy who had to be king and had to marry a grown woman--there is no choice in this, it simply must be done--would you work so hard to tear your boy from this young woman he's becoming so fond of?    Would you take the younger woman under your wing to help her be the best wife and queen, since you will have to give up the crown?  (Sorry Dame, you have to give up the crown)  And do this hard thing for your boy, the future king, rather than all the nasty, unkind and selfish things Cersei does and makes little Tommen so miserable?  And she knows he's miserable, too.   Cersei is a bad person.

I'm going to check back with Clash too, to see if I can dig up her comments about knowing Joffrey isn't fit to be king. 

I'm on the fence about Cersei in Winds.   As I've said, I'm really hoping she will be smarter.   At the same time I know you're right and she will be more vengeful.   Her comments to Kevan shortly before he's killed make me understand she's absolutely up to something, but also leave me hoping she's learning to keep it in check a bit, too.  She's been such a good villain and I am loathe to lose her.  And I'm especially interested in her reaction to Kevan's slaying.   This ought to be really good.   Oh yes, I really enjoyed the comparison to Duskendale.   I like it and suspect you're right on this one. 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

16 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Thanks. You're the first person to even respond to my Davos prediction.  Everyone expects an in-and-out mission, and I think it's going to be far more complicated than that.

First thing to remember about ASOIAF - George doesn't believe in writing the obvious, at least so far as the casual reader is concerned.

Second thing to remember - If the majority of readers expect something to happen, it is probably the obvious choice.

Arya - If you're not an attentive reader, it seems obvious that she will remain with the FM.  I see no reason for her to do so.  Becoming adequately trained would take a huge amount of time, and it puts her at the command of someone else, which effectively dead-ends her story.  As I said before, she needs to be her own player for her story to have real resonance.

While I see a connection between Arya and Dany, I see no reason for Arya as a character to seek her out.  The FM won't send her because she is untrained and probably regarded as untrustworthy and I see no reason for Arya to have any personal interest in her.  She has connections to the Riverlands in particular, and even in the North.  She might even find it interesting that there are Northerners willing to fight, kill, and die for her.

Davos - How did I figure this out?  As Tyrion responded when asked how he knew Tywin's plans; "I looked at a map".  Skagos is on the way to Hardhome, and to get there, you have to pass Eastwatch, where ships are being pressed into service.  I have a theory that Benjen is in the far north, either spying on or negotiating with the Others, and has either gone to Hardhome, or sent someone with a message. George has said we will see the Land of Always Winter, and this makes more sense to me than trying to do it through Bran or Ghost.

Bran - Whether or not to leave the cave will be his "story of the heart in conflict with itself."  He will have to make a choice.  I think he will leave, simply because I do not think his story remaining there would be all that interesting.  By the way, I think Arya's "story of the heart in conflict" has to do with her retaining her identity, and also on whether to continue on the path of vengeance 

Sam - He will probably visit Horn Hill.  With respect to the fight against the Others, he will go where he think he can  do the most good.  His cowardice is gone, if it was ever really there.  He will remain in Oldtown if he thinks there are answers there, otherwise he will join the fight.

I'm split on Davos. One of the things I'm looking forward too and anticipating is Davos forming a strong bond with Rickon during their journey, which would give Davos a storyline to go right into once Stannis is killed or joins the watch or whatever fate he has. On the other, I like the idea of him going further north. Maybe there's a way for both. They don't intend on it but end up at Hardhome and have to flee north to survive. 

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Thanks. You're the first person to even respond to my Davos prediction.  Everyone expects an in-and-out mission, and I think it's going to be far more complicated than that.

First thing to remember about ASOIAF - George doesn't believe in writing the obvious, at least so far as the casual reader is concerned.

Second thing to remember - If the majority of readers expect something to happen, it is probably the obvious choice.

Arya - If you're not an attentive reader, it seems obvious that she will remain with the FM.  I see no reason for her to do so.  Becoming adequately trained would take a huge amount of time, and it puts her at the command of someone else, which effectively dead-ends her story.  As I said before, she needs to be her own player for her story to have real resonance.

While I see a connection between Arya and Dany, I see no reason for Arya as a character to seek her out.  The FM won't send her because she is untrained and probably regarded as untrustworthy and I see no reason for Arya to have any personal interest in her.  She has connections to the Riverlands in particular, and even in the North.  She might even find it interesting that there are Northerners willing to fight, kill, and die for her.

Davos - How did I figure this out?  As Tyrion responded when asked how he knew Tywin's plans; "I looked at a map".  Skagos is on the way to Hardhome, and to get there, you have to pass Eastwatch, where ships are being pressed into service.  I have a theory that Benjen is in the far north, either spying on or negotiating with the Others, and has either gone to Hardhome, or sent someone with a message. George has said we will see the Land of Always Winter, and this makes more sense to me than trying to do it through Bran or Ghost.

Bran - Whether or not to leave the cave will be his "story of the heart in conflict with itself."  He will have to make a choice.  I think he will leave, simply because I do not think his story remaining there would be all that interesting.  By the way, I think Arya's "story of the heart in conflict" has to do with her retaining her identity, and also on whether to continue on the path of vengeance 

Sam - He will probably visit Horn Hill.  With respect to the fight against the Others, he will go where he think he can  do the most good.  His cowardice is gone, if it was ever really there.  He will remain in Oldtown if he thinks there are answers there, otherwise he will join the fight.

Nevets, most excellent Winds Seer..I've been stumped on where Davos will show up in Winds with Rickon.  I theorized this would be key and as important to Davos adventure as finding Rickon.   I've been leaning toward Eastwatch because it's likely.   And I looked at a map, too, which is how I settled on Eastwatch.  But I'm not a great predictor of things, so even that felt lifeless to me for Davos.   Hardhome is perfect.  As to my being the 1st, don't take it to heart--these threads get going with all the subconversations (see above, I'm such a fan of Dornish Dame) and points of contention and things are so easily missed.   Have you ever started a topic and tried to get it back on track after a completely different discussion gets going?   I'm starting to love being in this old thread with really good conversation about something I'm genuinely interested in.   Thank you for bringing your ideas here.   I'm enjoying the heck out of them.   You feel free to jump in whenever you like.  

I will be happy for Dany, Arya and Bran all to get moving in the directions they need to go (Westeros via Pentos, The Riverlands and Gorne's Way).   I'm looking so forward to what's in store for Jon and Davos and Sam and yes, Cersei.   I'm hoping we get some good ends and better alliances.    This conflict of the heart you mention is a lovely way to explain the overall theme of these stories, but it is true of so many of our characters.  They'll all have to make even harder choices with GRRM deciding their fates.  

[Curled Finger]

34 minutes ago, Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies said:

I'm split on Davos. One of the things I'm looking forward too and anticipating is Davos forming a strong bond with Rickon during their journey, which would give Davos a storyline to go right into once Stannis is killed or joins the watch or whatever fate he has. On the other, I like the idea of him going further north. Maybe there's a way for both. They don't intend on it but end up at Hardhome and have to flee north to survive. 

Meat Pies--good to see you again.   You know, I'm digging Nevets' idea up there and see no reason Osha, Rickon and Davos can't all go on the adventure.   Davos, being every man's man, will be stoically devastated to lose Stannis.   I think GRRM will give him a break by giving him Rickon. Maybe Stannis will be long gone by the time Davos even learns of it and will have already formed his alliances with Rickon and Osha representing all the Wildlings.  Egad, maybe there is a whole bunch of them in Davos' party. This scenario is a whole lot more appealing than seeing the bunch of them end up at Winterfell.   Maybe having to travel tunnels is the reason Davos has been locked up so many times, to acclimate him to the enclosure of wandering about underground.   With screaming things in caves at Hardhome.   Oh bring on that world building!  

Any idea who we can match them up with on an adventure of this nature?   They would be pioneers for us on that side of the map.  On a side note, an adventure like this would expose Davos to the other side of the magical forces, putting him in a rare position to witness the miracles and horror of both fire and ice.  I, for one, would be very interested in Davos' take on wargs and greenseers.  

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, Fitzochris01 said:

Huh? When did that happen? Last I read, 'Pate' merely introduced himself while showing Sam to his quarters.

Welcome Fritzochris.  You have to go back to the beginning of the thread--on page 2 (I think) Chilly Polly lays it all out as s/he sees it.  It's unique.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I too expect Daenerys and Tyrion to become the sole POVs in Meereen and Arianne to become Aegon's POV.I also expect a gathering of characters in Kings Landing,which means Cersei,Jaime,Sansa,Arya,Arianne,Jon Con(he will appear in others's chapters) and Theon replacing Melisandre as Wall POV. I doubt we will see a Hotah chapter.I think Sam will head to Dorne or Doran informs Arianne with ravens what happened with Darkstar.

[dornishdame]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Remind me not to get on the other side of you during a discussion about Cat.  

Cat.......ah, she splits so many opinions. Personally I am of the line of thought that goes with her being a lot to blame for the situation with Jon, but not completely 100%. Yes, she ignored him and treated him like dirt rather than a step-son, that is indisputable. She made no attempt to try and make the best of the situation. But, Ned should have told her the truth. Lady Stoneheart, on the other hand, is full of a level of vengeance that can only end in wholesale slaughter. And I think Arya needs to see that to bring her back to the person she was. It will be interesting to see if their story lines converge in Winds. 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Kids suck, but they do become your life.  It is hard enough not to screw them up when you're trying to do the right thing, much less someone who only produces them to profit.   And yes, I suppose there is some of that social superiority and poor role modeling Cersei was raised with to consider. I'll offer up the old stand by, she wasn't the only one raised under these extraordinary circumstances.   Still at some point your children become products of your soul not simply your body.   I see none of this in Cersei's parenting or thought.   I still think she's just a sociopath and I don't believe she loves anyone.   I believe Tommen and Jamie love her, but she doesn't actually love them beyond what she gains.   I really would like a little more of what's going on in Myrcella's head.  Tell me Dame, if you had this little boy who had to be king and had to marry a grown woman--there is no choice in this, it simply must be done--would you work so hard to tear your boy from this young woman he's becoming so fond of?    Would you take the younger woman under your wing to help her be the best wife and queen, since you will have to give up the crown?  (Sorry Dame, you have to give up the crown)  And do this hard thing for your boy, the future king, rather than all the nasty, unkind and selfish things Cersei does and makes little Tommen so miserable?  And she knows he's miserable, too.   Cersei is a bad person.

I suppose a lot of Cersei and Joffrey has a lot to do with the battle of nature vs nurture. And I think that without, as you say, a POV from one of Cersei's children we cannot know exactly what their perception of her is. I am not defending anything Cersei does. She is a bad person, in some cases an evil one. And I would in no way have acted to Margaery as a daughter-in-law as she did. I would make common cause with her and show the world that we are a united front - so that Westeros could not use the young king's age as an excuse to try and split the realm. I would work together with Margaery to show Tommen how to be a good king. But then, I am not Cersei. I am, in truth, more an introvert than extrovert and would much rather be in the shadows than out front on show (very unlike Cersei) and so I would gladly give up the power and attention that comes with being queen. 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm on the fence about Cersei in Winds.   As I've said, I'm really hoping she will be smarter.   At the same time I know you're right and she will be more vengeful.   Her comments to Kevan shortly before he's killed make me understand she's absolutely up to something, but also leave me hoping she's learning to keep it in check a bit, too.  She's been such a good villain and I am loathe to lose her.  And I'm especially interested in her reaction to Kevan's slaying.   This ought to be really good.   Oh yes, I really enjoyed the comparison to Duskendale.   I like it and suspect you're right on this one. 

She is a good villain, you are right. And although she is nowhere near as politically astute as she thinks she is, Cersei is entertaining to watch! Given that Myrcella and Tommen are due to die before Cersei, and she still has the trial of the Faith to go, I think that we will have Cersei for Winds. I see her dying either at the end of Winds or the beginning of Dream. 

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

I too expect Daenerys and Tyrion to become the sole POVs in Meereen and Arianne to become Aegon's POV.I also expect a gathering of characters in Kings Landing,which means Cersei,Jaime,Sansa,Arya,Arianne,Jon Con(he will appear in others's chapters) and Theon replacing Melisandre as Wall POV. I doubt we will see a Hotah chapter.I think Sam will head to Dorne or Doran informs Arianne with ravens what happened with Darkstar.

Welcome King Endymion and thanks for your ideas regarding these merging story lines.   You posted so I have to ask...what's happening to Vic?   Does he leave or does he die?   What of the horn?  So you see Dany heading back to Mereen rather than Tyrion chasing after her?  I'm not sure how I feel about Arienne becoming the power POV for such an important story as Aegon's and to a lesser degree, Jon Con and all of Dorne.  And you have half the crew assembling in Kings Landing--any idea how Sansa, Jamie and Arya will get there?  Theon heading to the Wall seems to be a popular thing.  My only hesitation for joining the band wagon is that he is with Asha and I think that means something.  I could be wrong because I haven't been able to formulate it beyond them being together as prisoners.   That's what I'm relying on you for.   I'll be sad not to have Hotah, I love the guy.   But I really enjoyed the whole Dorne storyline IN THE BOOKS.   This Sam heading to Dorne is a thing, too.  Why would he go there?  What does happen with Darkstar?   

You really did tie a bunch of them up and I appreciate your time and effort here.   Hope you will have a chance to answer some of my questions or weigh in with more ideas or to elaborate on what you've already offered.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Cat.......ah, she splits so many opinions. Personally I am of the line of thought that goes with her being a lot to blame for the situation with Jon, but not completely 100%. Yes, she ignored him and treated him like dirt rather than a step-son, that is indisputable. She made no attempt to try and make the best of the situation. But, Ned should have told her the truth. Lady Stoneheart, on the other hand, is full of a level of vengeance that can only end in wholesale slaughter. And I think Arya needs to see that to bring her back to the person she was. It will be interesting to see if their story lines converge in Winds. 

I suppose a lot of Cersei and Joffrey has a lot to do with the battle of nature vs nurture. And I think that without, as you say, a POV from one of Cersei's children we cannot know exactly what their perception of her is. I am not defending anything Cersei does. She is a bad person, in some cases an evil one. And I would in no way have acted to Margaery as a daughter-in-law as she did. I would make common cause with her and show the world that we are a united front - so that Westeros could not use the young king's age as an excuse to try and split the realm. I would work together with Margaery to show Tommen how to be a good king. But then, I am not Cersei. I am, in truth, more an introvert than extrovert and would much rather be in the shadows than out front on show (very unlike Cersei) and so I would gladly give up the power and attention that comes with being queen. 

She is a good villain, you are right. And although she is nowhere near as politically astute as she thinks she is, Cersei is entertaining to watch! Given that Myrcella and Tommen are due to die before Cersei, and she still has the trial of the Faith to go, I think that we will have Cersei for Winds. I see her dying either at the end of Winds or the beginning of Dream. 

You know, something's going to happen to LSH in Winds.   As I recall you and I are on pretty much the same page with her fate.   When those threads start up I look forward to those Cat/LSH conversations with you.   I try to stay out of those conversations because they get so heated, but I've yet to read anything that made me a fan.   She is my least favorite character in the series--and not on account of Jon.   Though that didn't hurt in forming my opinion.   

I hope you didn't take my responses to you as preachy or condescending.   I am a fan of yours and never hope to disrespect your ideas. 

I see cycles repeating in this story.   You know I'm a supporter of a possible reenactment (of sorts) of THL legend with the swords and heroes.   Whether that's right or way off remains to be seen but I do see the cycle coming around and the pieces coming into place to have this happen.   King Robert was a throw back to Aegon The Unworthy as Brienne is reminiscent of young Dunk.  Cersei really does strike me as an Aerys.  I'm not saying incarnations, just similarities.   Aerys was the supreme ruler and could do a he pleased without censure.   Cersei struggles with madness and indulgence and a very nasty streak of paranoia and cruelty.   Unlike Aerys she has to maintain restraint.   She is not the supreme ruler of anything and has only a tenuous grip on the power she's claimed.   That's where your bringing up Duskendale was perfect symmetry.   I have no doubt Cersei is broken in the exact manner Aerys was broken and her insanity will be more than her undoing.    I just hope Jamie doesn't have to relive his last moments with Aerys when Cersei finally comes into her own. 

Got any ideas who she will name Hand?

[Fitzochris01]

On 28 January 2016 at 3:59 AM, Curled Finger said:

Welcome Fritzochris.  You have to go back to the beginning of the thread--on page 2 (I think) Chilly Polly lays it all out as s/he sees it.  It's unique.

Thanks. Yes. I've since seen the theory on other threads, too. It's an interesting one and very plausible. I like Sam and would hate for him to die "off camera" as it were, but GRRM needs to streamline those POVs somehow.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

On 29/1/2016 at 4:45 AM, Curled Finger said:

Welcome King Endymion and thanks for your ideas regarding these merging story lines.   You posted so I have to ask...what's happening to Vic?   Does he leave or does he die?   What of the horn?  So you see Dany heading back to Mereen rather than Tyrion chasing after her?  I'm not sure how I feel about Arienne becoming the power POV for such an important story as Aegon's and to a lesser degree, Jon Con and all of Dorne.  And you have half the crew assembling in Kings Landing--any idea how Sansa, Jamie and Arya will get there?  Theon heading to the Wall seems to be a popular thing.  My only hesitation for joining the band wagon is that he is with Asha and I think that means something.  I could be wrong because I haven't been able to formulate it beyond them being together as prisoners.   That's what I'm relying on you for.   I'll be sad not to have Hotah, I love the guy.   But I really enjoyed the whole Dorne storyline IN THE BOOKS.   This Sam heading to Dorne is a thing, too.  Why would he go there?  What does happen with Darkstar?   

You really did tie a bunch of them up and I appreciate your time and effort here.   Hope you will have a chance to answer some of my questions or weigh in with more ideas or to elaborate on what you've already offered.  

1. Victarion will die without getting a dragon.I believe the Dusky Woman is Euron's agent.
2. Daenerys will go to Vees Dothrak,get a huge khalassar and then return to Meereen, having embraced her "fire and blood" words.
3. Tyrion cannot leave the city now.The battle of fire,Meereen Civil War (Sons of the Harpy) and Volantis's arrival are enough for the Second Sons.
4. Dorne and Jon Con have shown most of their plans, so they don't need too many chapters. By the end of the story Aegon will be at King's Landing, so he will appear in others POVs (Jaime,Cersei,Sansa).
5. For Sansa I believe that the Mad Mouse will abduct her near the end of Winds to take her to Cersei,but he will find Aegon at King's Landing.
6. For Jaime, I believe he will be forced by the events to return.Sand Snakes will reveal who Robert Strong is (and probably kill Tommen or Myrcella),Cersei will be arrested again, so house Lannister will need a leader.
7. For Arya I believe that she will go for training/mission to King's Landing and there she will find Sansa.
8. I doubt Asha will survive the battle of Ice.
9. I doubt the hunt for Darkstar is so important but I believe he will kill Balon and possibly Obara.we can learn about what happened through ravens sent to Arianne or Sam if he heads to Dorne.
10. My idea is that Sam is with Alleras(Sarella).When Euron takes Oldtown,Alleras flees with Sam and they head to Dorne.