Merging Story Lines

[dornishdame]

So many posts to catch up on!! 

 

On 2/16/2016 at 10:16 PM, bemused said:

Curled finger, Nevets, dornishdame ..
I'm just going to address a few things at random..

Castle Black..
I suppose I wouldn't mind Mel's view of things at the wall, as long as she keeps her mitts off Jon (Avert! Avert!) But, Edd - As I said, I can't believe that none of the spearwives would have been summoned to the meeting, since they might be needed to go to Hardhome (they are not NW, and Jon couldn't simply order them) Edd has been in charge of transport between CB and Long Barrow. I believe that Iron Emmett was given command because the spearwives would initially have more respect for a renowned fighter. To me, it's only logical that a Long Barrow contingent (perhaps Edd, Emmett and Black Maris?) would be at CB - just not specifically noted by Jon. We also have Edd's dream that he was LC .. he's served as Jon's steward, and I think he's someone Jon would put in charge in his absence. 

Morna, a leader who commands a fort, was no farther away than Tormund. She should have been there, and may have been with Val before the meeting ( e.g., I don't think Toregg was in Val's tower for a milkmaid, or for courting Val. I think Val is a spiritual leader / seer and was being kept informed).. and/or.. If Morna was in the shieldhall without her mask, she wouldn't stand out.

Of course Flint and Norrey were still there (Jon noticed northmen among those pouring out of the buildings to see what was going on) but I don't know how they'd do as POVs.

We don't know if anyone let Ghost and Mormont's raven (Raven) out, or if, together, they could have  found their way out (depending on what kind of latch the door or window shutters had). So it's not impossible that Bran could have a distant view of the action. (Raven-> Bloodraven-> Bran through the weirnet?) ... Still, I'd prefer a person who was right there, and that might suit George's purposes better.

Theon...
I feel sure Theon will be taken to the tree. Bran likely stopped watching through the WF heart tree and followed on to Stannis' camp. There is a raven pecking at the corpse of one of the "burnt offerings", just before Tycho arrives ... and soon after, I'm sure we witness Bran and Bloodraven inhabiting Maester Tybald's ravens.

Here, I want to diverge a little from dornishdame's thoughts on Bran skinchanging people. I don't know if George will ever make some reasonable excuse in the case of Hodor ... It is possible - like a child who fears water gradually being taught to lose their fear and learn to swim. Being thrown in at the deep end is not the best beginning, but at Queenscrown and later, outside the cave, it was a necessity. For all we know, depending on whether Bran is to ever leave the cave, even his selfish exploring might prove to be vital, and Hodor's fear might dissipate. 

OTOH, Theon's particular mental state, his acceptance of the supernatural and desire to communicate with the old gods, might make him a willing vessel, which I think makes a huge initial difference. It wouldn't even be a strange idea to Theon, knowing of Aeron's claim that the drowned god speaks through him. It could be a religious experience, for Theon. The difference for us would be that we would know that someone actually was speaking through Theon, whereas with Aeron , we can reasonably doubt ..

Without taking this sideways into a pink letter discussion, I think Stannis wrote the original pink letter which was then intercepted and re-forged by the conspirators at the wall (Thorne providing additional text). This would require Bloodraven or Bran (I think Bran) to fly that raven north, since on it's own, it would only fly to WF or the Dreadfort. (Assuming Stannis does want to send Roose a false report of his death, the 2nd raven going to WF would not need guidance. Bloodraven's attention could turn anywhere, probably CB.) 

You raise an interesting point with regards to Norrey and Flint at Castle Black. Whether or not they have any questions over the identity of 'Arya Stark', I can see their views being similar to that of the Wull with Stannis's forces:

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue." (The Sacrifice in Dance)

I do wonder what Stannis said to the mountain clansmen when he went to try and gain their support. I find it hard to believe that he would neglect to mention Jon Snow, and the assistance that the LC of the Night's Watch had given them. And if Alys Karstark is even remotely representative of the north, we know that there is a respect for Ned Stark and those of his blood. The northmen - in spite of their knowledge of the ways of the Watch - would, I suspect, have been supportive of Jon's insistence on riding south to deal with Ramsay. This is how I believe they would expect a northman to act. It will be interesting to see where their loyalties lie in the aftermath of the Ides of Marsh. The northerners have historically been supportive of the Wall and against the wildlings (who owe Jon for allowing them through the Wall) - and yet, Jon made a point of including Norrey and Flint in his meeting atop the Wall in which he explained his arrangement with the wildlings. A meeting in which he made a point of reiterating his heritage:

"Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark." (Jon XI in Dance)

I also join you in hoping that Melisandre keeps her claws out of Jon Snow. I don't want him to be soiled by her sorcery, and that is part of why I want Val to be involved in Jon's resurrection. And with regards to the Pink Letter, I do think it has been reworked (the smudge on the sealing wax hints at interference at the very least) - do you think that Bloodraven is trying to get Jon south and involve him in the Battle for Winterfell? He has certainly seemed very interested in Jon ever since he arrived at Castle Black. 

As for Hodor, I know that Bran is untaught and that on the first occasion at least, he did what he did as an instinctive response. I do not blame him, and I understand his actions. That said, I do not believe that there is any sort of reasonable excuse for taking over the mind of another human being. Bran needs to be taught why that is the case, but until he does, I can understand him continuing to do so to a certain extent. Trying to save lives or to reach out to a distressed Meera is one thing - using someone to explore a new place is quite another. 

On 2/16/2016 at 11:22 PM, Curled Finger said:

- I think that Robb clearly sees the power in the direwolves, but cannot express it to Bran. Clearly he does not realize just how advanced a warg Bran is.. It was a shame not to know if Robb shared the same bond with Grey Wind as his brothers and Arya.   I was musing along the lines of what does a magic wolf do without his warg?  Is there any way Grey Wind might have established a connection with Sansa, being alone?

I do think that warging and the skills that these children have will come to be important in Winds. And I wonder if the growth of Daenerys's dragons may also help them as well. With magic in general coming back into the world, it will be interesting to see if this has an impact on the powers the Stark children possess.   Dame, it's never occurred to me that the powers would grow with the magical beasts.    This is beyond cool.  

...one place I have thought for a while we are really missing a POV is inside the Tyrell camp.   True that.   Mace can't be as much a fool as he seems.   What is Marg's real game in all this? The elder Tyrell sons appear to be honorable men.   Hard to imagine Mace is such a bumbler yet still managed to raise good men.  Perhaps there is more to him than meets the eye and perhaps it is their mother's Hightower influence that made them what they are.  At any rate, I would like to know too!

Robb and Grey Wind - when warging a raven, Bran can sense the presence of another skinchanger:

"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin." (Bran III in Dance)

But if what Varamyr tells us is correct, then it is unlikely Grey Wind would have bonded with another:

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change." (Prologue in Dance)

As for the Tyrells, I really do find it amiss that we do not have a POV in the Tyrell camp. If we look at all 9 main families - Stark, Greyjoy, Tully, Lannister, Arryn, Targaryen. Baratheon, Tyrell and Martell - we have had a POV among or close to all of them thus far apart from the Tyrells. And in that, I include Sansa as a POV close to the only Arryn left - Sweetrobin. We know nothing of their true motives, other than that Mace Tyrell was, according to Littlefinger, determined to make his daughter a queen. We mainly see Margaery through the eyes of Sansa and Cersei, both of whom have proven themselves to be blinkered (the former is far too trusting - look at how she views Littlefinger - and Cersei is blinkered by the YaMBQ element of Maggy the Frog's prophecy). As I have said before (though perhaps in other threads) I do not believe Margaery wanted moon tea to prevent herself from becoming pregnant. I believe that either there are menstrual problems moon tea aids - like the contraceptive pill does in our world - or Margaery sought the moon tea on behalf of another. 

On 2/18/2016 at 1:04 AM, Nevets said:

I am skeptical of the notion that we will get a lot of info from Bran.  George doesn't seem like the kind of writer who will go "I need to see what is up in [Winterfell, the Reach, ToJ,etc.], I'll just let Bran see it."  If Bran "sees" anything, it is likely to be fragmentary and not easily interpreted.  Anything else, is, frankly, too easy and kind of cheesy.  That's all I really have for now.

Just to clarify - as I have been a supporter of the viewing events through the eyes of Bran - that I do not believe he will be the sole POV for huge chunks of the books. It is impracticable, unrealistic, and - as you say - cheesy. That said, I do believe that he can fill in some gaps for us. Gaps that a weirwood tree might witness but not a POV character, for example. I do think it would be interesting to see him attempt to interpret events as Melisandre does her fire visions. Bran is a good way of dropping us small nuggets of information without having to install another POV character. 

On 2/19/2016 at 0:02 AM, bemused said:

Sansa

I was intrigued by your digressive thoughts on Sansa - thank you for noting them down! I love the idea of the importance of the female line and what it entails. I love the idea that in a patriarchal society like Westeros, it is the genetics of the mother that are of paramount importance! I have long viewed Sansa as the most Tully of the family, and I think you make a good argument about her future and her influences being related to the Riverlands. It is a region that seems to be regularly in conflict, and Sansa is a character that always seems to be dominated by others rather than asserting herself. 

I also find your Snow White parallel interesting. Sansa has a lot of fairytale mythology running through her arc and a Beauty and the Beast storyline going on with the Hound. Could the two merge? Or could Aegon be the not-so-fairytale-prince? Sansa would be an interesting choice for Aegon. Yes, she could deliver the regions he has no connections to (and would involve her in Littlefinger's 'War of the three queens) but I am not sure it would fit in with the idea of Sansa finding someone who loved her for herself and not her claim. Perhaps she never will. I also find the idea of Aegon and Sansa intriguing because JonCon never thinks of Lyanna. He thinks of Elia as below, but never Lyanna:

"My lord does have one prize to offer," Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. "Prince Aegon's hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners."

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

"Daenerys Targaryen may yet come home one day," Connington told the Halfmaester. "Aegon must be free to marry her." (The Griffin Reborn in Dance)

If word was to reach them that Daenerys had taken Hizdahr zo Loraq as her husband, then this would remove the need to keep Aegon single. And Sansa could come into play. I do wonder, though - does JonCon never think of Lyanna because he doesn't think her worth thinking about, or because he finds it harder to criticize her than Elia? 

On 2/19/2016 at 7:38 PM, Lord Cadwan said:

I personally hope we do not regain Jon's POV and that we merely see him through the eyes of other characters from now on. This is because I believe that although Jon will be resurrected instead of properly dying his 'death' will instead be symbolic for the loss of his POV. This also brings up the fact that one day he could be a king as no king may have a POV. This said I believe the 13 POV characters in Winds will be Arya, Sansa, Bran, Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Daenerys, Arianne, Jaime, Samwell and Davos.

In a way, I actually hope that we do continue to get Jon POV chapters. Death is a transformative experience, and it would be interesting to see a POV character deal with it. Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart are markedly very different people, and although I think Jon will be different when he returns, I do not believe he will undergo such an extensive change. For one thing, I think his soul will survive in a way that Lady Stoneheart's did not.

8 hours ago, The Sword of the Evening said:

Location	Character #1	Character #2	Character #3
Braavos	Arya Stark
Slavers Bay	Tyrion Lannister	Barristan Selmy	Victarion Greyjoy
Dothraki Sea	Danaerys Targaryen
Kings Landing	Cersei Lannister
Riverlands	Brienne of Tarth	Jaime Lannister	Catelyn Tully**
Castle Black	Melisandre	Jon Snow*
Beyond the Wall	Bran Stark
Outside Winterfell	Theon Greyjoy	Asha Greyjoy
Skagos (en route)	Davos Seaworth
Iron Islands	Aeron Greyjoy
Vale	Sansa Stark
Dorne	Areo Hotah
Oldtown	Samwell Tarly
Stormlands	Arianne Martell	Jon Connington
Deceased	Ned Stark	Arys Oakheart	Quentyn Martell*

 

*Quentyn Martell is dead IMO, but some people think it was the Tattered Prince instead.

**Catelyn Tully is now Lady Stoneheart, pretty unlikely she gets another POV.

 

I think the Slaver's Bay/RIverlands/Stormlands are obviously the most likely storylines to be combined, but I wouldn't be surprised  to see Theon/Asha as well. I also expect Melisandre to be the Castle Black viewpoint for most of TWOW with maybe some info from Bran.

Thanks for putting this together - it is a great reminder of where everyone was at the end of Dance. It will be interesting to see these storylines coalesce in Winds, but I also think that we will see some movement from the characters, and they may move to other places and render the merging of POVs obsolete. 

I also agree Quentyn is dead, and I think that his death will have repercussions across locations. I can't imagine the Martells will get an accurate version of events, nor do I think Daenerys will come out of it favorably. And that may push them into Team Aegon. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, dornishdame said:

So many posts to catch up on!!    Ain't that the truth!

You raise an interesting point with regards to Norrey and Flint at Castle Black. Whether or not they have any questions over the identity of 'Arya Stark', I can see their views being similar to that of the Wull with Stannis's forces:

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue." (The Sacrifice in Dance)    These hill folk are bloodthirsty throw backs to the real kings of winter and first men.    I love these guys--all of them!

As for Hodor, I know that Bran is untaught and that on the first occasion at least, he did what he did as an instinctive response. I do not blame him, and I understand his actions. That said, I do not believe that there is any sort of reasonable excuse for taking over the mind of another human being. Bran needs to be taught why that is the case, but until he does, I can understand him continuing to do so to a certain extent. Trying to save lives or to reach out to a distressed Meera is one thing - using someone to explore a new place is quite another.    I think that when and if BR brings this up, I mean if anyone should know what Bran's doing it should be BR, right?--When and if BR addresses Bran's inhabitation of Hodor will be huge and hopefully revealing.   Let's see what the last greenseer thinks of it as opposed to a Wildling--I'm interested if there is a different morality to the action. 

Robb and Grey Wind - when warging a raven, Bran can sense the presence of another skinchanger:

But if what Varamyr tells us is correct, then it is unlikely Grey Wind would have bonded with another:    I think you are probably right and thanks so much for the supporting text.   The wolves really aren't interchangeable.

As for the Tyrells, I really do find it amiss that we do not have a POV in the Tyrell camp. If we look at all 9 main families - Stark, Greyjoy, Tully, Lannister, Arryn, Targaryen. Baratheon, Tyrell and Martell - we have had a POV among or close to all of them thus far apart from the Tyrells. And in that, I include Sansa as a POV close to the only Arryn left - Sweetrobin. We know nothing of their true motives, other than that Mace Tyrell was, according to Littlefinger, determined to make his daughter a queen. We mainly see Margaery through the eyes of Sansa and Cersei, both of whom have proven themselves to be blinkered (the former is far too trusting - look at how she views Littlefinger - and Cersei is blinkered by the YaMBQ element of Maggy the Frog's prophecy). As I have said before (though perhaps in other threads) I do not believe Margaery wanted moon tea to prevent herself from becoming pregnant. I believe that either there are menstrual problems moon tea aids - like the contraceptive pill does in our world - or Margaery sought the moon tea on behalf of another.  You make a good point about the opinions of non POV characters.   How about Pycelle, the suck up slime bag, just made the whole moon-tea thing up about Marg?  

I was intrigued by your digressive thoughts on Sansa - thank you for noting them down! I love the idea of the importance of the female line and what it entails. I love the idea that in a patriarchal society like Westeros, it is the genetics of the mother that are of paramount importance! I have long viewed Sansa as the most Tully of the family, and I think you make a good argument about her future and her influences being related to the Riverlands. It is a region that seems to be regularly in conflict, and Sansa is a character that always seems to be dominated by others rather than asserting herself.   I'd actually like to see Sansa establish the Stark outposts, The Vale, Riverlands...but I'm not certain all that ICE related power should extend beyond the North.    This is only half-baked at this point, but it seems to me that Sansa is being set up for some great power beyond her station but that her station is also critical to getting to the next level.   I'm afraid I'm a little stunted by my low expectations for Aegon's survival.  I will be paying very close attention to what Jon Con has to say about all the eligible maidens when it comes time to consider a bride. 

In a way, I actually hope that we do continue to get Jon POV chapters. Death is a transformative experience, and it would be interesting to see a POV character deal with it. Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart are markedly very different people, and although I think Jon will be different when he returns, I do not believe he will undergo such an extensive change. For one thing, I think his soul will survive in a way that Lady Stoneheart's did not.  The time between life and death will be utterly fascinating if we have the opportunity to read it.   I hope you're right about Jon not changing drastically.   I like being in his head and knowing what motivates him and will no doubt feel cheated if I don't get that once he gets all the info dumps headed his way.  

I also agree Quentyn is dead, and I think that his death will have repercussions across locations. I can't imagine the Martells will get an accurate version of events, nor do I think Daenerys will come out of it favorably. And that may push them into Team Aegon.   Where are Quentyn's companions at the end of Dance?   Have they left Mereen or are they only preparing to leave?   Leaving them in Mereen at this critical junction is an interesting move, just as I think their report to Doran will be important for determining his next move.  

Lots of good stuff, Dame. 

 

[Lord Cadwan]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome Lord Cadwan and thanks so much for your thoughts here.   I think we are about evenly divided on all the possibilities for a continued Jon POV.   It is slowly becoming apparent that the characters without a POV have information key to the story.   Indeed, Jon may no longer be Jon and we may not find ourselves sympathetic to his thoughts anymore.   And it is bloody interesting who is given a POV to tell the stories.   That said, who could serve as Jon's Davos now that Sam is gone?   Mel?  Nah, she's too entrenched in her own agenda.   Davos?  Nice twist, still we are unsure where Davos will end up.   He is an excellent companion storyteller.   However, his lack of knowledge regarding the North and Fire prophesies would hide way too much from us.   I don't know, but your ideas about Jon's death killing his POV are substantiated.  As to your surviving POVs, good on you for sparing Ser Grampa.   He's a personal favorite of mine and I think he's got more to say and do.   Still you are in the minority here and I would like to know how you see keeping all 3 POVs in Mereen alive?   You've also got a LOT of Greyjoys carrying on--what contributions do you see Vic and The Damphair making in the long run?   I don't know how much of the topic you read, but earlier in the week there was discussion about my magic 13 POV number being perhaps unlikely.  Please check out the discussion a page back if you have a chance and weigh in on it if you have anything to offer on the subject.

Thank you for discussing my post Curled Finger. In reply to your comment I do not see all the POVs in Meereen surviving the whole book (or even the first quarter of the book, but working on the assumption that there is a maximum of 13 POVs in Winds we already know that the POVs in Meereen and the three Greyjoys mentioned have chapters and so if the number 13 is correct they must be part of it. Having said that I agree with you that 13 is perhaps unlikely as I do struggle to see the book without either Cersei or Samwell and I'd really struggle to cut my list shorter to make way for them-Arya, Bran or both are the only others I could possibly envisage not having POVs and even then that seems extremely unlikely.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Lord Cadwan said:

Thank you for discussing my post Curled Finger. In reply to your comment I do not see all the POVs in Meereen surviving the whole book (or even the first quarter of the book, but working on the assumption that there is a maximum of 13 POVs in Winds we already know that the POVs in Meereen and the three Greyjoys mentioned have chapters and so if the number 13 is correct they must be part of it. Having said that I agree with you that 13 is perhaps unlikely as I do struggle to see the book without either Cersei or Samwell and I'd really struggle to cut my list shorter to make way for them-Arya, Bran or both are the only others I could possibly envisage not having POVs and even then that seems extremely unlikely.

We love a good conversation or 10 in this place Lord Cadwan and your comments are welcome and appreciated.   This is not a direct quote, but pulling from my fallible memory, GRRM indicated TWOW would begin with 13 POVs and reduce that even more by the end of the book.   Of course he can and does change his mind so it's just a stab in the dark.  This doesn't mean death for all, only that certain characters stories are combined with others or the their specific POV is no longer needed.   I know, I have a hard time wrapping my head around it because I'm greedy and fond of all the POVs.  With characters all combining in various places (Theon & Asha, Jamie & Brienne, Arienne & Jon Con, Vic, Tyrion & Barristan in Mereen) it is at least logistically possible to merge those POVs eliminating 5 POVs right there.    It will be interesting to see who continues to tell us the story and why.  As to Mereen, it's becoming apparent that nearly anything can happen there, specifically losing the war.  Now that would certainly do something to our POVs, wouldn't it?    

Cersei & Sam as major POV characters in comparatively remote locations sort of indicates that they are safe until their adventure in each place is done--same with Arya and Bran (though some readers have some really unexpected directions for Arya to go).   Did I just say safe?  OK, maybe not safe so much as the story needs to play out...in my need to know at least!   I struggle with the simple math versus personal preference here.   However, your merely pointing these 4 out as possible exclusions tells me you are reasonable reader. 

[dornishdame]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You raise an interesting point with regards to Norrey and Flint at Castle Black. Whether or not they have any questions over the identity of 'Arya Stark', I can see their views being similar to that of the Wull with Stannis's forces:

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue." (The Sacrifice in Dance)    These hill folk are bloodthirsty throw backs to the real kings of winter and first men.    I love these guys--all of them!

As for Hodor, I know that Bran is untaught and that on the first occasion at least, he did what he did as an instinctive response. I do not blame him, and I understand his actions. That said, I do not believe that there is any sort of reasonable excuse for taking over the mind of another human being. Bran needs to be taught why that is the case, but until he does, I can understand him continuing to do so to a certain extent. Trying to save lives or to reach out to a distressed Meera is one thing - using someone to explore a new place is quite another.    I think that when and if BR brings this up, I mean if anyone should know what Bran's doing it should be BR, right?--When and if BR addresses Bran's inhabitation of Hodor will be huge and hopefully revealing.   Let's see what the last greenseer thinks of it as opposed to a Wildling--I'm interested if there is a different morality to the action. 

Robb and Grey Wind - when warging a raven, Bran can sense the presence of another skinchanger:

But if what Varamyr tells us is correct, then it is unlikely Grey Wind would have bonded with another:    I think you are probably right and thanks so much for the supporting text.   The wolves really aren't interchangeable.

As for the Tyrells, I really do find it amiss that we do not have a POV in the Tyrell camp. If we look at all 9 main families - Stark, Greyjoy, Tully, Lannister, Arryn, Targaryen. Baratheon, Tyrell and Martell - we have had a POV among or close to all of them thus far apart from the Tyrells. And in that, I include Sansa as a POV close to the only Arryn left - Sweetrobin. We know nothing of their true motives, other than that Mace Tyrell was, according to Littlefinger, determined to make his daughter a queen. We mainly see Margaery through the eyes of Sansa and Cersei, both of whom have proven themselves to be blinkered (the former is far too trusting - look at how she views Littlefinger - and Cersei is blinkered by the YaMBQ element of Maggy the Frog's prophecy). As I have said before (though perhaps in other threads) I do not believe Margaery wanted moon tea to prevent herself from becoming pregnant. I believe that either there are menstrual problems moon tea aids - like the contraceptive pill does in our world - or Margaery sought the moon tea on behalf of another.  You make a good point about the opinions of non POV characters.   How about Pycelle, the suck up slime bag, just made the whole moon-tea thing up about Marg?  

I was intrigued by your digressive thoughts on Sansa - thank you for noting them down! I love the idea of the importance of the female line and what it entails. I love the idea that in a patriarchal society like Westeros, it is the genetics of the mother that are of paramount importance! I have long viewed Sansa as the most Tully of the family, and I think you make a good argument about her future and her influences being related to the Riverlands. It is a region that seems to be regularly in conflict, and Sansa is a character that always seems to be dominated by others rather than asserting herself.   I'd actually like to see Sansa establish the Stark outposts, The Vale, Riverlands...but I'm not certain all that ICE related power should extend beyond the North.    This is only half-baked at this point, but it seems to me that Sansa is being set up for some great power beyond her station but that her station is also critical to getting to the next level.   I'm afraid I'm a little stunted by my low expectations for Aegon's survival.  I will be paying very close attention to what Jon Con has to say about all the eligible maidens when it comes time to consider a bride. 

In a way, I actually hope that we do continue to get Jon POV chapters. Death is a transformative experience, and it would be interesting to see a POV character deal with it. Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart are markedly very different people, and although I think Jon will be different when he returns, I do not believe he will undergo such an extensive change. For one thing, I think his soul will survive in a way that Lady Stoneheart's did not.  The time between life and death will be utterly fascinating if we have the opportunity to read it.   I hope you're right about Jon not changing drastically.   I like being in his head and knowing what motivates him and will no doubt feel cheated if I don't get that once he gets all the info dumps headed his way.  

I also agree Quentyn is dead, and I think that his death will have repercussions across locations. I can't imagine the Martells will get an accurate version of events, nor do I think Daenerys will come out of it favorably. And that may push them into Team Aegon.   Where are Quentyn's companions at the end of Dance?   Have they left Mereen or are they only preparing to leave?   Leaving them in Mereen at this critical junction is an interesting move, just as I think their report to Doran will be important for determining his next move.  

Lots of good stuff, Dame. 

I love the mountain clansmen, and find them akin to the wildlings in some ways. I think that the old Kings of Winter probably were quite like what many of the wildlings we meet in the series are.  I look forward to seeing more of them in Winds, and it will be interesting to see how they work with Stannis and how Norrey and Flint react to Jon's stabbing. Will they see it as an issue for the Night's Watch alone, or one for the north to deal with? We do hear that the Stark in Winterfell has been called upon multiple times to deal with Watch-related issues in the past....but at the moment it is the Boltons that rule there. And Jon, though a member of the Watch, is Ned Stark's blood. I can really see the different strands of the northern story lines coming together by the middle/end of the second third of Winds. At the moment I am leaning towards some sort of breach in the Wall at the end of Winds (not necessarily it coming down.....rather, the magics that keep the Others on the other side of it failing for some reason) and I think that by that time we need some sort of resolution on a number of the current northern plots. 

As I think I have said before, I find Bloodraven to be the most intriguing character in the entire series. Far from my favorite, but definitely the most intriguing. There is so much mystery surrounding him, his abilities and his intentions. He needs to educate Bran on how to control his abilities as well as use them. But I think we will see more of this tutelage in Winds - and perhaps there we will get more of an idea what he wants, which side he is truly on, and what his endgame is. It will be interesting to get Bloodraven's perspective on warging humans, as you say, and I think I quoted in a previous post that actually it is a fallacy that wildling morals are always looser than those of people living south of the Wall. I think the example I gave was Ygritte believing marrying someone from the same clan/village was essentially incest - which was the accepted practice of the Targaryens for years, and was practiced by King Tommen's parents. It will be good to get another comparison of wildling/non-wildling morals. More and more it is possible to pull together bits and pieces of the story and realize that the wildlings are not that different from those who live south of the Wall. 

Re: Varamyr - don't like the guy, but he seems to know what he is talking about when it comes to skinchanging/warging etc. And right from the start, the bonds the direwolves and the kids have are extremely tight. 

I'm not sure that Pycelle made the moon tea thing up. He is cringing when Cersei gets it out of him, and although Cersei is a Lannister, I think that Pycelle is opposed to her rule.

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. "Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man." Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. (Cersei IX in Feast)

The bit I underlined seems to indicate that Pycelle was trying to elaborate on his admission - either to condemn or to rescue Margaery. We learn earlier in Feast that Pycelle and Margaery have become fast friends:

"I understand the little queen has many admirers amongst our household knights. The Redwyne twins, Ser Tallad . . . who else, pray tell?"

Lady Merryweather gave a shrug. "Ser Lambert, the fool who hides a good eye behind a patch. Bayard Norcross. Courtenay Greenhill. The brothers Woodwright, sometimes Portifer and often Lucantine. Oh, and Grand Maester Pycelle is a frequent visitor."

"Pycelle? Truly?" Had that doddering old worm forsaken the lion for the rose? If so, he will regret it. "Who else?" (Cersei VI in Feast)

I think that Pycelle, a traditionalist, is unhappy with Cersei - a woman, though a Lannister one - ruling the Realm. Pycelle spent years working towards getting the Lannisters to the top and she seems to be doing her damnest to ruin everything he and Tywin had worked for. I won't quote it all, but if you look through the Small Council meetings in Cersei's POV chapters in Feast, he repeatedly speaks out against her. And then there is Qyburn. We might view Pycelle as a Lannister toady but it is not surprising that a Grand Maester is appalled by the admission of a de-chained maester to the Small Council. Particularly one stripped of his chain for the reasons Qyburn was. It would not surprise me if Pycelle had, at the very least, suspicions of what Qyburn was up to in the black cells. 

Sansa's storyline in Winds is the one that I think we all have ideas over, but in reality it could take her anywhere. I will address JonCon below as part of the Dornish bit, but I think that Sansa has the potential to be a great queen. If she can open her eyes to what people like Littlefinger are really like, and yet retain an innocence about her, then I think she would make an excellent consort and be popular with the smallfolk. I like your idea about her expanding Stark influence in the south....perhaps making Rickard's southron ambitions work? She is the only one I think could do it. The others are, I think, too northern in their outlook. 

Jon, Jon, Jon.....I actually like being inside his head too. It has been great to see him grow as a character and as a person throughout the series. He has really matured, and is a true leader. I find his and Daenerys's arcs pretty similar (I think that is intentional) and I think Jon's introverted personality works as a POV. We understand him much better this way - though I guess the same could be said for all POV characters. Take Jaime - I hated him until I read his POV chapters. It helps you understand the why of someone. I do think death will change him (how could it not) and that he will be much more wolfish. 

The Dornishmen really don't like Daenerys. Come the end of Dance, they are still in Meereen - Barristan wants to use them as contacts with the Windblown and they agreed to do it. They are incredibly loyal to Quentyn, and are appalled by Daenerys rejecting him. The quotes below are from Barristan's The Queen's Hand POV chapter in Dance:

"I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

"She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword."

Both quotes are from Gerris Drinkwater. If he were to end up the sole survivor of the expedition, I doubt he would give Doran a good account of Daenerys Targaryen. Regardless, I doubt that they will return to Dorne before Doran has to take a decision on the issue of Aegon. And events may overtake them. Daenerys is currently missing. If reports of her being missing/probably dead reach Westeros before news of Quentyn, then it may encourage the Martells to support Aegon. Equally, it might cause JonCon to consider an alternative match for Aegon. If Daenerys was no longer alive, he would be the sole Targaryen heir - and his marriage would be a way to bring in allies. Like the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Sansa and Arianne are probably the best two options (assuming that JonCon hears of Sansa's whereabouts and availability and can get the High Septon to annul her marriage to Tyrion on the grounds of non-consummation). Another point on Sansa and marrying Aegon - we are repeatedly told that Sansa hates riding. And so, unlike Margaery, she probably did not lose her maidenhead on horseback and would therefore be in a position to provide proof of non-consummation. Arianne would bring Dornish spears with her, Sansa northern and possibly Riverlands swords (perhaps even some from the Vale - her father grew up there, and the lords were opposed to Lannister rule).

Doran and Arianne's decision making may come down to what they find out about events in Meereen and when. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

I love the mountain clansmen, and find them akin to the wildlings in some ways. I think that the old Kings of Winter probably were quite like what many of the wildlings we meet in the series are.  I look forward to seeing more of them in Winds, and it will be interesting to see how they work with Stannis and how Norrey and Flint react to Jon's stabbing. Will they see it as an issue for the Night's Watch alone, or one for the north to deal with? We do hear that the Stark in Winterfell has been called upon multiple times to deal with Watch-related issues in the past....but at the moment it is the Boltons that rule there. And Jon, though a member of the Watch, is Ned Stark's blood. I can really see the different strands of the northern story lines coming together by the middle/end of the second third of Winds. At the moment I am leaning towards some sort of breach in the Wall at the end of Winds (not necessarily it coming down.....rather, the magics that keep the Others on the other side of it failing for some reason) and I think that by that time we need some sort of resolution on a number of the current northern plots. 

As I think I have said before, I find Bloodraven to be the most intriguing character in the entire series. Far from my favorite, but definitely the most intriguing. There is so much mystery surrounding him, his abilities and his intentions. He needs to educate Bran on how to control his abilities as well as use them. But I think we will see more of this tutelage in Winds - and perhaps there we will get more of an idea what he wants, which side he is truly on, and what his endgame is. It will be interesting to get Bloodraven's perspective on warging humans, as you say, and I think I quoted in a previous post that actually it is a fallacy that wildling morals are always looser than those of people living south of the Wall. I think the example I gave was Ygritte believing marrying someone from the same clan/village was essentially incest - which was the accepted practice of the Targaryens for years, and was practiced by King Tommen's parents. It will be good to get another comparison of wildling/non-wildling morals. More and more it is possible to pull together bits and pieces of the story and realize that the wildlings are not that different from those who live south of the Wall. 

Re: Varamyr - don't like the guy, but he seems to know what he is talking about when it comes to skinchanging/warging etc. And right from the start, the bonds the direwolves and the kids have are extremely tight. 

I'm not sure that Pycelle made the moon tea thing up. He is cringing when Cersei gets it out of him, and although Cersei is a Lannister, I think that Pycelle is opposed to her rule.

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. "Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man." Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. (Cersei IX in Feast)

The bit I underlined seems to indicate that Pycelle was trying to elaborate on his admission - either to condemn or to rescue Margaery. We learn earlier in Feast that Pycelle and Margaery have become fast friends:

"I understand the little queen has many admirers amongst our household knights. The Redwyne twins, Ser Tallad . . . who else, pray tell?"

Lady Merryweather gave a shrug. "Ser Lambert, the fool who hides a good eye behind a patch. Bayard Norcross. Courtenay Greenhill. The brothers Woodwright, sometimes Portifer and often Lucantine. Oh, and Grand Maester Pycelle is a frequent visitor."

"Pycelle? Truly?" Had that doddering old worm forsaken the lion for the rose? If so, he will regret it. "Who else?" (Cersei VI in Feast)

I think that Pycelle, a traditionalist, is unhappy with Cersei - a woman, though a Lannister one - ruling the Realm. Pycelle spent years working towards getting the Lannisters to the top and she seems to be doing her damnest to ruin everything he and Tywin had worked for. I won't quote it all, but if you look through the Small Council meetings in Cersei's POV chapters in Feast, he repeatedly speaks out against her. And then there is Qyburn. We might view Pycelle as a Lannister toady but it is not surprising that a Grand Maester is appalled by the admission of a de-chained maester to the Small Council. Particularly one stripped of his chain for the reasons Qyburn was. It would not surprise me if Pycelle had, at the very least, suspicions of what Qyburn was up to in the black cells. 

Sansa's storyline in Winds is the one that I think we all have ideas over, but in reality it could take her anywhere. I will address JonCon below as part of the Dornish bit, but I think that Sansa has the potential to be a great queen. If she can open her eyes to what people like Littlefinger are really like, and yet retain an innocence about her, then I think she would make an excellent consort and be popular with the smallfolk. I like your idea about her expanding Stark influence in the south....perhaps making Rickard's southron ambitions work? She is the only one I think could do it. The others are, I think, too northern in their outlook. 

Jon, Jon, Jon.....I actually like being inside his head too. It has been great to see him grow as a character and as a person throughout the series. He has really matured, and is a true leader. I find his and Daenerys's arcs pretty similar (I think that is intentional) and I think Jon's introverted personality works as a POV. We understand him much better this way - though I guess the same could be said for all POV characters. Take Jaime - I hated him until I read his POV chapters. It helps you understand the why of someone. I do think death will change him (how could it not) and that he will be much more wolfish. 

The Dornishmen really don't like Daenerys. Come the end of Dance, they are still in Meereen - Barristan wants to use them as contacts with the Windblown and they agreed to do it. They are incredibly loyal to Quentyn, and are appalled by Daenerys rejecting him. The quotes below are from Barristan's The Queen's Hand POV chapter in Dance:

"I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

"She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword."

Both quotes are from Gerris Drinkwater. If he were to end up the sole survivor of the expedition, I doubt he would give Doran a good account of Daenerys Targaryen. Regardless, I doubt that they will return to Dorne before Doran has to take a decision on the issue of Aegon. And events may overtake them. Daenerys is currently missing. If reports of her being missing/probably dead reach Westeros before news of Quentyn, then it may encourage the Martells to support Aegon. Equally, it might cause JonCon to consider an alternative match for Aegon. If Daenerys was no longer alive, he would be the sole Targaryen heir - and his marriage would be a way to bring in allies. Like the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Sansa and Arianne are probably the best two options (assuming that JonCon hears of Sansa's whereabouts and availability and can get the High Septon to annul her marriage to Tyrion on the grounds of non-consummation). Another point on Sansa and marrying Aegon - we are repeatedly told that Sansa hates riding. And so, unlike Margaery, she probably did not lose her maidenhead on horseback and would therefore be in a position to provide proof of non-consummation. Arianne would bring Dornish spears with her, Sansa northern and possibly Riverlands swords (perhaps even some from the Vale - her father grew up there, and the lords were opposed to Lannister rule).

Doran and Arianne's decision making may come down to what they find out about events in Meereen and when. 

That was so fast, thanks Dame.   Yes I recalled your stance on the Wildling morality and beg your pardon as I am winding down my re-read somewhere near the middle of Dance now.   I am reminded of Val telling Jon Shireen is dirty and all her misgivings about greyscale.   Shrieen is a nice little girl and every time I hear this I wonder what the hell these people think.   They are a superstitious lot.   It doesn't mean they're wrong about everything, but they aren't progressive thinkers.   Bran forces me to try to understand good and bad in entirely new lights.   I'm probably just hung up on him being a little boy with no real idea what he's doing.   I can't wait to discuss BR with you when we get a better handle on his motives.  

And yes, Pycell did appear to have more to say there.  As you pointed out earlier, birth control pills are often employed to counteract various problems not directly contraceptive.    In that I've not seen Moon Tea referred to anything but post intercourse use this is just a case of me being dense.    I wonder if we will ever find out what Marg requested  Moon Tea for now that Pycelle won't be around to annoy ME anymore?   Curious I never picked up on his being in cahoots with Tywin.   He seems to oppose Tyrion and yes Cersei at every opportunity, but I get so caught up in his smarmy lickspittalness that I lose sight of what his motives are.    Like Frickin Little Finger, I hear either of them speak and have to pull my finger from my throat.   I tend to lump the Grand Maester in with Varys & LF in that we meet them all at the same time.   I've been reading this thinking Pycell had his own agenda--probably to die in KL where he can enjoy the prestige and power of his position.   What happens to Maesters when they retire anyway?

Leave it to you to pick up on something I didn't even know I was voicing.  Yes, if Stark outposts were to be established it would be fulfillment of Rickard's Southron ambitions.  Sweet and very tidy.   Well done on that one.   In the larger overall story do you think this subplot was important for the unity and peace of Westeros?   I always took SA to sort of ensure the Targ kings couldn't just go crazy on any of the conquered kingdoms, but as we've established I can be very narrow minded without meaning to be.  

Hadn't occurred to me that Aegon would require a maiden queen, either.  I thought the plan was to go for the single woman  with the greatest claim in order to give Aegon command of her lands in furtherance of his campaign.  Who knows?   Maybe Sansa will get her love story with a man who loves her for her.  

Thanks for the locations (and quotes) of Quentyn's companions.   Still at least 2 days before I get to them again!   With this  fresh in mind I'm thinking they may not leave Mereen and Doran will have no way of knowing if his message got to Dany or not.    Won't this be an interesting predicament for Doran?   He's thinking he's got a Targ in the hand and probably 1 in the bush. Leads me to assume that Dany will be the one to tell Doran what happened.   Oh boy.   I need to reread the Arienne chapters from TWOW to see how it is that Doran knows this is a Targ invading the Stormlands.   

Varys supports Aegon, Pycell (sort of) supported the Lannisters--who supports Dany?   Is it possible LF has been aware of her growing power?   He makes a comment to Sansa about 3 Queens and I always wrote it off as Sansa being the 3rd (Cersei, Marg & Sansa).   Is it possible he's hedging his bets? 

[dornishdame]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That was so fast, thanks Dame.   Yes I recalled your stance on the Wildling morality and beg your pardon as I am winding down my re-read somewhere near the middle of Dance now.   I am reminded of Val telling Jon Shireen is dirty and all her misgivings about greyscale.   Shrieen is a nice little girl and every time I hear this I wonder what the hell these people think.   They are a superstitious lot.   It doesn't mean they're wrong about everything, but they aren't progressive thinkers.   Bran forces me to try to understand good and bad in entirely new lights.   I'm probably just hung up on him being a little boy with no real idea what he's doing.   I can't wait to discuss BR with you when we get a better handle on his motives.  

Shireen is such a lovely, lonely and sad little girl that I think we sometimes let that blind us to the gravity of her situation. We have little to go on, as she is the only character I think that has recovered from greyscale. I don't recall us being told the how of her recovery, but it is not impossible that the disease could be reactivated. And with all this magic coming back into the world....who knows what could happen. I agree that the wildlings are very superstitious. But I think you could probably say the same thing of the northerners and perhaps those from the Iron Islands also. I have to try and remember when reading Bran and Arya's POV chapters how young they actually are. But then, perhaps they also demonstrate what living in the middle of a war zone can do to children. They and Rickon, born during the long summer, are turning more and more into children of winter. 

Bloodraven - I wish Bran would not trust him so much; it gets me anxious that he trusts him so easily. And I too look forward to discussing him more once Winds is released. The little we know of him from the main series, the Dunk and Egg books and the World of Ice and Fire book already has me intrigued. I think we have to pay attention to how Bran sees him, and I am looking forward to us getting more of that so I can compare and contrast Dunk's view of him from The Mystery Knight. 

45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

And yes, Pycell did appear to have more to say there.  As you pointed out earlier, birth control pills are often employed to counteract various problems not directly contraceptive.    In that I've not seen Moon Tea referred to anything but post intercourse use this is just a case of me being dense.    I wonder if we will ever find out what Marg requested  Moon Tea for now that Pycelle won't be around to annoy ME anymore?   Curious I never picked up on his being in cahoots with Tywin.   He seems to oppose Tyrion and yes Cersei at every opportunity, but I get so caught up in his smarmy lickspittalness that I lose sight of what his motives are.    Like Frickin Little Finger, I hear either of them speak and have to pull my finger from my throat.   I tend to lump the Grand Maester in with Varys & LF in that we meet them all at the same time.   I've been reading this thinking Pycell had his own agenda--probably to die in KL where he can enjoy the prestige and power of his position.   What happens to Maesters when they retire anyway?

Moon tea is only ever referred to in-universe as a form of contraception - thus far. The idea that there could be multiple uses for it comes from me thinking about the multiple uses for the equivalent in our world. I could be very, very wrong! Pycelle is no longer around to tell us what he was up to with Margaery - and that in itself means that whatever Margaery herself says may be doubted. I am not sure Margaery will end up being tried by the Faith - with Pycelle dead and so many of the accusers retracting their statements, it is very much up in the air. 

Pycelle was made Grand Maester before Summerhall. So, he was on the Small Council throughout the reign of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II - and this includes Tywin's tenure as Hand of the King. It is not difficult to imagine the Grand Maester, watching Aerys descend into madness, thinking that Tywin was a fitter man to rule. We know too little about the workings of the Small Council during the reign of Aerys, but I tend to think that Pycelle, full of self-importance, saw Tywin as a good leader and one that he counseled well in his rule of the realm. It was Pycelle that urged Aerys to open the gates of King's Landing to Tywin's army following the Battle of the Trident. That he continued to serve the Lannisters after that indicates that the events of the Sack did not affect his loyalty. 

"Your oaths will be of small comfort in the black cells," she warned him. "I'll hear the truth, or you'll wear chains."

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. "I beg you . . . I was your lord father's man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . ."

"Why does Margaery send for you?" (Cersei IX in Feast)

As for retired maesters, I am not entirely sure that they do retire as such. Grand Maester is, I think, the sort of role held until death. In Clash, we discover that Maester Pylos was sent to Dragonstone because Stannis wanted assistance for Maester Cressen. So, with the rest of them I would guess either they return to the Citadel - as Jon intended Aemon to do - and live out their days being tended to by the novices and studying, or writing, or they remain at their post with a younger assistant.....helping groom the younger man for rule alongside the lord of the castle. 

59 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Leave it to you to pick up on something I didn't even know I was voicing.  Yes, if Stark outposts were to be established it would be fulfillment of Rickard's Southron ambitions.  Sweet and very tidy.   Well done on that one.   In the larger overall story do you think this subplot was important for the unity and peace of Westeros?   I always took SA to sort of ensure the Targ kings couldn't just go crazy on any of the conquered kingdoms, but as we've established I can be very narrow minded without meaning to be.  

I think that Rickard wanted to increase the influence, power and prestige of his house. I am not sure entirely how much of the Southron ambitions theories (I know there are variations) that I believe in, but I do believe that he wanted to increase the Stark family influence and power. Was it to check royal authority? I do not know. We don't know enough about how the other lords felt during Aerys's reign, or how much they knew of his descent into madness. Clearly Duskendale taught any lord thinking of open defiance that they would need to tread carefully, but I am not sure how many of his children Lord Rickard had betrothed by then. I think Brandon may have been betrothed to Catelyn at this stage, but I would need to check. Was this important for unity and peace? I am not sure. Certainly binding your house to others would help ensure that in the event of war, at least someone would end up on the winning side. But as we previously discussed with regards to the Tyrells, there is no guarantee that everyone will be marching to the same tune. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hadn't occurred to me that Aegon would require a maiden queen, either.  I thought the plan was to go for the single woman  with the greatest claim in order to give Aegon command of her lands in furtherance of his campaign.  Who knows?   Maybe Sansa will get her love story with a man who loves her for her.  

A maiden queen would help as far as JonCon in concerned, though Aegon may prefer an experienced older woman in Arianne. We only have to look at all the issues raised with Margaery to realize how important this would be perceived as being in Westeros - particularly given the rise of the Faith. JonCon would, I think, prefer Aegon to marry a maiden. And in Sansa, they could have that. Like you had said previously, Aegon is unlikely to survive the series - and I don't want Sansa to end up an habitual widow like Margaery or Rohanne Webber. So I hope for that reason it doesn't happen, and I see Sansa more in the Riverlands in Winds. Though pretty much anything could happen with her. Ultimately, I do want her to marry someone who loves her for more than her claim, but the reality is that for a high-born girl in Westeros such things are exceedingly rare. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for the locations (and quotes) of Quentyn's companions.   Still at least 2 days before I get to them again!   With this  fresh in mind I'm thinking they may not leave Mereen and Doran will have no way of knowing if his message got to Dany or not.    Won't this be an interesting predicament for Doran?   He's thinking he's got a Targ in the hand and probably 1 in the bush. Leads me to assume that Dany will be the one to tell Doran what happened.   Oh boy.   I need to reread the Arienne chapters from TWOW to see how it is that Doran knows this is a Targ invading the Stormlands.   

We have this quote from Dance:

Death is creeping up my arm. No man must ever know, nor any wife. He got back to his feet. "Prepare the letter to Prince Doran." (The Griffin Reborn)

So, as of the end of Dance, JonCon was asking Haldon Halfmaester to write to Doran Martell and request his support. In the same chapter, he is speaking at a meeting with the Golden Company:

Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell."

So, JonCon sees Doran as central to their plans to gain the Iron Throne. As I said in my last post, so much will depend on what information leaks out of Meereen and when. If Doran has any doubts about Quentyn's survival, hears that Daenerys has taken Hizhdar as a husband, or the story of her disappearance is known, then it may push him towards Aegon. Doran has waited almost two decades for vengeance and justice for Elia. He has been patient, but he cannot wait forever. The Arianne chapters are great - I haven't read them for a while, but I think one of them might include the letter JonCon and Haldon are speaking of above. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Varys supports Aegon, Pycell (sort of) supported the Lannisters--who supports Dany?   Is it possible LF has been aware of her growing power?   He makes a comment to Sansa about 3 Queens and I always wrote it off as Sansa being the 3rd (Cersei, Marg & Sansa).   Is it possible he's hedging his bets? 

I don't think Littlefinger considers Daenerys. I think the three queens he mentions are Sansa, Margaery and Cersei (though I could be wrong). Varys is sneaky in Small Council meetings. He passes on news of Daenerys but aside from her marriage and pregnancy, I think he tends to downplay and hide a lot of his information. The intention is clearly to be able to say later that he had told the Small Council, but was interrupted/no follow-up was requested etc. I don't think anyone in Westeros is actively thinking of Daenerys and her claim. This is a patriarchal society (Dorne aside) and they did nothing to aid Viserys, the male heir. This will change when she turns up with dragons and Westeros has already been exposed to the idea of a Targaryen restoration through Aegon. And, if as I think likely, Euron Greyjoy sits on the Iron Throne at some point after Aegon, Daenerys may not seem that bad an idea. Littlefinger is, I think, hedging his bets. But I do not think one of those bets is Daenerys Targaryen. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

Shireen is such a lovely, lonely and sad little girl that I think we sometimes let that blind us to the gravity of her situation. We have little to go on, as she is the only character I think that has recovered from greyscale. I don't recall us being told the how of her recovery, but it is not impossible that the disease could be reactivated. And with all this magic coming back into the world....who knows what could happen. I agree that the wildlings are very superstitious. But I think you could probably say the same thing of the northerners and perhaps those from the Iron Islands also. I have to try and remember when reading Bran and Arya's POV chapters how young they actually are. But then, perhaps they also demonstrate what living in the middle of a war zone can do to children. They and Rickon, born during the long summer, are turning more and more into children of winter.     True, but we haven't heard of a recurrence of greyscale either.  I expect we will learn more about the disease when we see Jon Con again.  And thanks for reminding me the IB and Northmen are every bit as superstitious as the Wildlings.   

Bloodraven - I wish Bran would not trust him so much; it gets me anxious that he trusts him so easily. And I too look forward to discussing him more once Winds is released. The little we know of him from the main series, the Dunk and Egg books and the World of Ice and Fire book already has me intrigued. I think we have to pay attention to how Bran sees him, and I am looking forward to us getting more of that so I can compare and contrast Dunk's view of him from The Mystery Knight.    Earlier today I heard the part just before Bran is given the weirwood paste in preparation for his greenseeing.   Things he's discovered in the cave are described and I forgot the part where he happens upon more people (?) wrapped up in trees and roots.   Bran says the eyes follow him, but since I'm being introduced to the possible bad intentions of BR I thought I'd see what you thought of the person (?) who is tree wrapped and opens his mouth as though to speak.  This struck me as profoundly curious if BR is the last greenseer.   What are these other living beings doing there?  If the guy (?) could open his mouth and move his lips, why wouldn't he be able to speak?  Roots through the vocal cords or possible bewitchment?  Bran seems to take everything in stride, but everything in the cave is weird.

Moon tea is only ever referred to in-universe as a form of contraception - thus far. The idea that there could be multiple uses for it comes from me thinking about the multiple uses for the equivalent in our world. I could be very, very wrong! Pycelle is no longer around to tell us what he was up to with Margaery - and that in itself means that whatever Margaery herself says may be doubted. I am not sure Margaery will end up being tried by the Faith - with Pycelle dead and so many of the accusers retracting their statements, it is very much up in the air. I wouldn't mind if Marg got a break, but I still think Cersei just wants to make her life a living hell.   Marg may be safer locked up than free about the kingdom.   It is personal with Cersei--she wants her daughter-in-law out of the way  Even without a trial and I hope she gets one and is found completely innocent, Marg isn't safe so long a Cersei draws breath. 

Pycelle was made Grand Maester before Summerhall. So, he was on the Small Council throughout the reign of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II - and this includes Tywin's tenure as Hand of the King. It is not difficult to imagine the Grand Maester, watching Aerys descend into madness, thinking that Tywin was a fitter man to rule. We know too little about the workings of the Small Council during the reign of Aerys, but I tend to think that Pycelle, full of self-importance, saw Tywin as a good leader and one that he counseled well in his rule of the realm. It was Pycelle that urged Aerys to open the gates of King's Landing to Tywin's army following the Battle of the Trident. That he continued to serve the Lannisters after that indicates that the events of the Sack did not affect his loyalty. 

"Your oaths will be of small comfort in the black cells," she warned him. "I'll hear the truth, or you'll wear chains."

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. "I beg you . . . I was your lord father's man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . ."

"Why does Margaery send for you?" (Cersei IX in Feast)

As for retired maesters, I am not entirely sure that they do retire as such. Grand Maester is, I think, the sort of role held until death. In Clash, we discover that Maester Pylos was sent to Dragonstone because Stannis wanted assistance for Maester Cressen. So, with the rest of them I would guess either they return to the Citadel - as Jon intended Aemon to do - and live out their days being tended to by the novices and studying, or writing, or they remain at their post with a younger assistant.....helping groom the younger man for rule alongside the lord of the castle.    Pycelle's age is constantly brought up--why wouldn't he be preparing a younger man to take his place?   Previously you mentioned Qyburn.   I think Pycelle did stay up on Maester gossip and the like.  Still Qyburn come off as an agreeable reasonably likeable guy--until he begins collecting Cersei's friends at any rate.   Surely Pycelle  had the appointment everyone aspires to in KL?  It's hard for me to take sides with or against the maesters because I've seen more good than bad as Pycelle (and Qyburn) was the only one who left a bad aftertaste. 

I think that Rickard wanted to increase the influence, power and prestige of his house. I am not sure entirely how much of the Southron ambitions theories (I know there are variations) that I believe in, but I do believe that he wanted to increase the Stark family influence and power. Was it to check royal authority? I do not know. We don't know enough about how the other lords felt during Aerys's reign, or how much they knew of his descent into madness. Clearly Duskendale taught any lord thinking of open defiance that they would need to tread carefully, but I am not sure how many of his children Lord Rickard had betrothed by then. I think Brandon may have been betrothed to Catelyn at this stage, but I would need to check. Was this important for unity and peace? I am not sure. Certainly binding your house to others would help ensure that in the event of war, at least someone would end up on the winning side. But as we previously discussed with regards to the Tyrells, there is no guarantee that everyone will be marching to the same tune.   I tend to think Brandon & Cat weren't betrothed long.   They'd never met and Lady Dustin seemed to think she had a real shot at landing Brandon.   For all that's worth.   But yah, the Southron Ambitions idea is pretty speculative at this point.  

A maiden queen would help as far as JonCon in concerned, though Aegon may prefer an experienced older woman in Arianne. We only have to look at all the issues raised with Margaery to realize how important this would be perceived as being in Westeros - particularly given the rise of the Faith. JonCon would, I think, prefer Aegon to marry a maiden. And in Sansa, they could have that. Like you had said previously, Aegon is unlikely to survive the series - and I don't want Sansa to end up an habitual widow like Margaery or Rohanne Webber. So I hope for that reason it doesn't happen, and I see Sansa more in the Riverlands in Winds. Though pretty much anything could happen with her. Ultimately, I do want her to marry someone who loves her for more than her claim, but the reality is that for a high-born girl in Westeros such things are exceedingly rare.  

We have this quote from Dance:

Death is creeping up my arm. No man must ever know, nor any wife. He got back to his feet. "Prepare the letter to Prince Doran." (The Griffin Reborn)

So, as of the end of Dance, JonCon was asking Haldon Halfmaester to write to Doran Martell and request his support. In the same chapter, he is speaking at a meeting with the Golden Company:

Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell."

So, JonCon sees Doran as central to their plans to gain the Iron Throne. As I said in my last post, so much will depend on what information leaks out of Meereen and when. If Doran has any doubts about Quentyn's survival, hears that Daenerys has taken Hizhdar as a husband, or the story of her disappearance is known, then it may push him towards Aegon. Doran has waited almost two decades for vengeance and justice for Elia. He has been patient, but he cannot wait forever. The Arianne chapters are great - I haven't read them for a while, but I think one of them might include the letter JonCon and Haldon are speaking of above.   These chapters are coming up so I will pay particular attention to them.  

I don't think Littlefinger considers Daenerys. I think the three queens he mentions are Sansa, Margaery and Cersei (though I could be wrong). Varys is sneaky in Small Council meetings. He passes on news of Daenerys but aside from her marriage and pregnancy, I think he tends to downplay and hide a lot of his information. The intention is clearly to be able to say later that he had told the Small Council, but was interrupted/no follow-up was requested etc. I don't think anyone in Westeros is actively thinking of Daenerys and her claim. This is a patriarchal society (Dorne aside) and they did nothing to aid Viserys, the male heir. This will change when she turns up with dragons and Westeros has already been exposed to the idea of a Targaryen restoration through Aegon. And, if as I think likely, Euron Greyjoy sits on the Iron Throne at some point after Aegon, Daenerys may not seem that bad an idea. Littlefinger is, I think, hedging his bets. But I do not think one of those bets is Daenerys Targaryen.  Euron Greyjoy on the Iron Throne.   We've suspected it could happen, but it's weird to see it in print.   I'm relieved you don't think LF has any more influence or horses in the Ruler Race than he has at present.   Don't count support for Dany out (by people other than LF) -remember all those who rose to support Rhaenyra.   I would still like Dany to get her taste of ruling Westeros.   The scenario you paint may leave Westeros begging her to rule.   Dame, you're wonderful to provide all these quotes and texts and engaging conversation.    I promise I will be normal once the reread is done.    

 

[bemused]

Boy, so much to respond to.. I'll have to do most in my notebook and then post, but a few things at random..

Moon tea could be used in the same way the pill is prescribed for women (sometimes even for teenagers who are not sexually active) if their periods are erratic, coming too close together or too far apart, maybe resulting in a lot of pain, bloating, etc. (A niece of mine was a case in point.) Taking moon tea and counting the days would ensure that the woman/girl could have a nice regular 28 day cycle.

I also adore Hugo Wull !.. I wish he could have everything he wants... “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death... etc." .. but I'll settle for licking Bolton blood from his lips, and hope he doesn't have to die with the taste of it on his tongue. (OTOH, what an exit !)

(If the show doesn't give his speech to someone, I'll know they're completely out of their minds.)

I'll be back.. hope I can catch up...

      

 

[dornishdame]

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Boy, so much to respond to.. I'll have to do most in my notebook and then post, but a few things at random..

Moon tea could be used in the same way the pill is prescribed for women (sometimes even for teenagers who are not sexually active) if their periods are erratic, coming too close together or too far apart, maybe resulting in a lot of pain, bloating, etc. (A niece of mine was a case in point.) Taking moon tea and counting the days would ensure that the woman/girl could have a nice regular 28 day cycle.

See, this was exactly my thinking on moon tea! And it does offer an explanation as to why Margaery and her close relations would not want it known that she had requested moon tea - menstrual problems could be interpreted by some as fertility problems, and given that Margaery's primary role as Tommen's wife is ultimately to provide him with heirs..........

5 hours ago, bemused said:

I also adore Hugo Wull !.. I wish he could have everything he wants... “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death... etc." .. but I'll settle for licking Bolton blood from his lips, and hope he doesn't have to die with the taste of it on his tongue. (OTOH, what an exit !)

(If the show doesn't give his speech to someone, I'll know they're completely out of their minds.)

This is, most definitely, a speech I would love to hear!! And it would take, what, a couple of minutes of screentime? I love the clansmen and it would be great if we could find out more about them and their culture in Winds. I'd love to be able to properly contrast their culture and way of life with the mountain tribes from the Vale that we see through Tyrion's eyes in Thrones and Clash. The northern clansmen - particularly the clan leaders - are, I think, akin to the old Kings of Winter and their vassals. They are all clearly loyal to Ned, and would not be happy to find out that the 'Arya' they intend to rescue is a fake. In suggesting them as supporters to Stannis and explaining how to win them over, I think we get to see more of just how much Jon picked up from Ned's teachings. 

[dornishdame]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

True, but we haven't heard of a recurrence of greyscale either.  I expect we will learn more about the disease when we see Jon Con again.  And thanks for reminding me the IB and Northmen are every bit as superstitious as the Wildlings.  

I expect that we will see more of greyscale in Winds. It is mentioned regularly in Dance, perhaps a little too regularly for it not to mean anything. We learn from Val in Dance that the wildlings believe the disease is never fully cured - merely dormant - as well as everything we uncover from Tyrion's trip down the Rhoyne past the stone men and JonCon's own experience. Henry VII of England was infamous for bringing the sweating sickness that periodically engulfed the Tudor population with him, when he and his sellswords landed after travelling from Europe. It would be an interesting parallel if JonCon were to be patient 0 in an epidemic. Regardless of whether he infects anyone (and I do think he will - why introduce this disease and tell us all about the dire consequences if he isn't going to pass it on to anyone?) JonCon now knows that his life is time limited in a way it was not before. He has been patient - as Doran has - in waiting for the right moment to strike. And I think that his desire to seat Aegon on the throne before his death will make him more impulsive. Just as I think Doran's declining health may influence his decision - particularly if there is unfavorable news leaking out of Meereen. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Earlier today I heard the part just before Bran is given the weirwood paste in preparation for his greenseeing.   Things he's discovered in the cave are described and I forgot the part where he happens upon more people (?) wrapped up in trees and roots.   Bran says the eyes follow him, but since I'm being introduced to the possible bad intentions of BR I thought I'd see what you thought of the person (?) who is tree wrapped and opens his mouth as though to speak.  This struck me as profoundly curious if BR is the last greenseer.   What are these other living beings doing there?  If the guy (?) could open his mouth and move his lips, why wouldn't he be able to speak?  Roots through the vocal cords or possible bewitchment?  Bran seems to take everything in stride, but everything in the cave is weird.

I haven't read that chapter in a while, but from memory Bran's entire arc in the cave is quite creepy. I'm evenly split on the Jojen paste. I don't think we've seen him for a while - and Bran doesn't, to my recollection, seem to push for seeing him. Before he reached the cave, I think that Bran spent too much time inside Summer's head; now that he's there, I think he is perhaps spending too much time with Bloodraven. I know that the Others are coming soon, and he needs to understand his powers and the responsibilities they entail, but I think he also has to retain a connection with the outside world - he clearly has difficulty distinguishing between day and night, and telling how much time has passed. He needs to remember who he is. And that plays into the identity arc common to all the Stark POV kids. I think we will find out more about the cave in Winds. Bran only has, I think, 4 POV chapters in Dance. I think that is a result of GRRM wanting to hold back information on what is happening there for a later date. It would not surprise me if Bran was not the first person Bloodraven had led to that cave. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I wouldn't mind if Marg got a break, but I still think Cersei just wants to make her life a living hell.   Marg may be safer locked up than free about the kingdom.   It is personal with Cersei--she wants her daughter-in-law out of the way  Even without a trial and I hope she gets one and is found completely innocent, Marg isn't safe so long a Cersei draws breath. 

As I think I have said before, I see YaMBQ element of the Maggy the Frog prophecy being self-fulfilling rather than that of the valonqar. I think Margaery will take all Cersei holds dear from her because of Cersei's attempts to thwart her. I think that the Tyrells will discover (if they have not done so already) that it was Cersei who schemed to have Margaery arrested by the Faith. I believe that Taena Merryweather is ultimately an agent of Varys, and one who will be used to cause further discord between the Lannisters and the Tyrells - especially if Varys was to pick the right moment. If we look at what Varys tells Kevan during the Dance epilogue:

I have children. I have a wife. Oh, Dorna. Pain washed over him. He closed his eyes, opened them again. "There are … there are hundreds of Lannister guardsmen in this castle."

"But none in this room, thankfully. This pains me, my lord. You do not deserve to die alone on such a cold dark night. There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes … but you were threatening to undo all the queen's good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen's rule. So …"

Varys specifically states that it is Kevan's good work to repair the Lannister-Tyrell alliance that has led to his downfall. Should Varys try to incriminate the Tyrells in Kevan's death and follow that swiftly with the reappearance of Taena, who knows that Cersei was behind the schemes against Margaery, then that alliance may be irreparable. I tend to think that Taena will conveniently tell the Tyrells what she knows....or at least drop hints, when Varys thinks it timely - when Aegon is close to King's Landing. Much of the Lannister army is in the Riverlands, and the guards that Kevan mentions are not enough to hold the city. Aside from anything else, Varys clearly knows the Red Keep better than anyone else alive. I could see them taking the city from the inside. There would be no repeat of the Sack of Robert's Rebellion, in that the smallfolk would not be affected, but I think Tommen (and probably Myrcella, who is heading back to KL) will meet the same fate as Aegon and Rhaenys. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Pycelle's age is constantly brought up--why wouldn't he be preparing a younger man to take his place?   Previously you mentioned Qyburn.   I think Pycelle did stay up on Maester gossip and the like.  Still Qyburn come off as an agreeable reasonably likeable guy--until he begins collecting Cersei's friends at any rate.   Surely Pycelle  had the appointment everyone aspires to in KL?  It's hard for me to take sides with or against the maesters because I've seen more good than bad as Pycelle (and Qyburn) was the only one who left a bad aftertaste. 

I think Grand Maester is different to the position of a standard maester. It is a sort of emeritus position, and one that is not removed with old age. The election of Grand Maester is, I think, based to an extent on that of the Pope. We learn the following about Pycelle's appointment when Cersei visits him:

"A younger man would please me more."

His tongue flicked across his lips. "I was but two-and-forty when the Conclave called me. Kaeth was eighty when they chose him, and Ellendor was nigh on ninety. The cares of office crushed them, and both were dead within a year of being raised. Merion came next, only six-and-sixty, but he died of a chill on his way to King's Landing. Afterward King Aegon asked the Citadel to send a younger man. He was the first king I served."

And Tommen shall be the last. "I need a potion from you. Something to help me sleep." (Cersei VIII in Feast)

But, seemingly, a living Grand Maester can be replaced in theory. We have this exchange between Varys and Tyrion at the beginning of Storm:

"And the second Aegon fed Grand Maester Gerardys to his dragon."

"Alas, I am quite dragonless. I suppose I could have dipped Pycelle in wildfire and set him ablaze. Would the Citadel have preferred that?"

"Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition." The eunuch tittered. "Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed, and the Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle's dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer's son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight's bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once."

The Conclave met in Oldtown behind closed doors, Tyrion knew; its deliberations were supposedly a secret. So Varys has little birds in the Citadel too. "I see. So my father decided to nip the rose before it bloomed." He had to chuckle. "Pycelle is a toad. But better a Lannister toad than a Tyrell toad, no?"

"Grand Maester Pycelle has always been a good friend to your House," Varys said sweetly. (Tyrion II in Storm)

The maesters, we can presume, are an independent body that do not take kindly to their order being at the whim of the crown; while they were willing to accommodate Aegon V's reasonable request for a younger man (that his length of service might be longer) they were willing to assent. But they do not approve of the Grand Maester - a man supposed to serve the realm and counsel high lords - being used as a political plaything. 

As to the collective motivations of the maesters, I am as yet unconvinced of any sort of mass conspiracy - but do believe that those at the top are teaching of a world that is without magic. And that is impacting on the advice that maesters give. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Euron Greyjoy on the Iron Throne.   We've suspected it could happen, but it's weird to see it in print.   I'm relieved you don't think LF has any more influence or horses in the Ruler Race than he has at present.   Don't count support for Dany out (by people other than LF) -remember all those who rose to support Rhaenyra.   I would still like Dany to get her taste of ruling Westeros.   The scenario you paint may leave Westeros begging her to rule.   Dame, you're wonderful to provide all these quotes and texts and engaging conversation.    I promise I will be normal once the reread is done.    

I always find discussing everything during a re-read a bit confusing. You read something and think that you've uncovered a unique take on things only to find it has either been in circulation for years or is disproved by an event you'd forgotten three chapters later!! 

Euron Greyjoy - he is fearless, even for an Ironborn, and is mad enough to try and sit himself upon the Iron Throne - an Iron Throne for an Iron Man, perhaps? There is a line I love from Feast:

Baelor Blacktyde was more difficult to please. He sat by Victarion's elbow in his lambswool tunic of black-and-green vairy, smooth-faced and comely. His cloak was sable, and pinned with a silver seven-pointed star. He had been eight years a hostage in Oldtown, and had returned a worshiper of the seven green land gods. "Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all," Lord Baelor said. "What of you, Lord Captain? If I shout your name, will you make an end of this mad war?" (The Iron Captain in Feast)

He is mad enough to try it, and is intent on getting Daenerys and (probably more crucially) her dragons for himself. Although he seems to think he could rule her, he has much and more to learn of his intended! Euron is intriguing. He makes a comment about flying which, combined with his 'Crow's Eye' moniker makes me think of some sort of link to Bloodraven (wouldn't that be an interesting story line convergence?!) 

I understand what you are saying about Rhaenyra, and I think that people will flock to her banners when she eventually comes to Westeros. But we hear little talk of her beyond Leo Tyrell's toast in the Feast Prologue and what Davos overhears in an inn in Dance:

"Daenela," the proprietor said loudly. "That was her name. The Mad King's daughter, I mean, not Baelor's bloody wife."

"Daenerys," Davos said. "She was named for the Daenerys who wed the Prince of Dorne during the reign of Daeron the Second. I don't know what became of her."

"I do," said the man who'd started all the talk of dragons, a Braavosi oarsman in a somber woolen jack. "When we were down to Pentos we moored beside a trader called the Sloe-Eyed Maid, and I got to drinking with her captain's steward. He told me a pretty tale about some slip of a girl who come aboard in Qarth, to try and book passage back to Westeros for her and three dragons. Silver hair she had, and purple eyes. 'I took her to the captain my own self,' this steward swore to me, 'but he wasn't having none of that. There's more profit in cloves and saffron, he tells me, and spices won't set fire to your sails.' " (Davos II in Dance)

They don't even know her name. But, they do know of her existence and that she has dragons. She would make a fearsome enemy, and as I have said (probably too many times before!) that the when will matter. If someone like Euron was to sit the Iron Throne, then Daenerys - if she was the only other option - might be able to convince even the most patriarchal-minded lords to bend the knee. Regardless, though, anyone pro-Targaryen will be in favor of her I think. 

[Curled Finger]

bemused and Dornish Dame--thanks for getting me excited about all the possible speeches from the book we could enjoy on the little screen soon.  This is good--actually just about everything the Northmen say is good, but I really hope for Septon Meribald's speech about broken men.   I only began watching the show last season so I still get a huge kick out of the actors and any little thing they actually quote from the books.   However, I have been disappointed in some great misses and pleased with a few throw away lines.   Who will have the great quotes from TWOW?   Who will we be picking apart once we have read Winds?   I suspect some fairly legible death, unexpected alliances and great speeches.  I hope we have a few answers to some of the greater and lesser mysteries and get a clearer understanding of what Bran is actually doing.   With all that was left hanging in Feast and Dance Bran is still an unknown.  The introduction of so many lesser lords leads me to believe there is some lost connection to the old North, First Men and Kings of Winter, perhaps even The Others.  I wonder if we will get any of this richly embellished backstory for the Reach or Vale or even Iron Islands--they only look boring on the surface.    You start scratching your head over where the Seastone Chair could possibly have come from...As much as I really want to know the end of this story the journey is unlike any I've ever taken.  And I have the most interesting traveling companions...

[dornishdame]

On 2/23/2016 at 3:14 AM, Curled Finger said:

bemused and Dornish Dame--thanks for getting me excited about all the possible speeches from the book we could enjoy on the little screen soon.  This is good--actually just about everything the Northmen say is good, but I really hope for Septon Meribald's speech about broken men.   I only began watching the show last season so I still get a huge kick out of the actors and any little thing they actually quote from the books.   However, I have been disappointed in some great misses and pleased with a few throw away lines.   Who will have the great quotes from TWOW?   Who will we be picking apart once we have read Winds?   I suspect some fairly legible death, unexpected alliances and great speeches.  I hope we have a few answers to some of the greater and lesser mysteries and get a clearer understanding of what Bran is actually doing.   With all that was left hanging in Feast and Dance Bran is still an unknown.  The introduction of so many lesser lords leads me to believe there is some lost connection to the old North, First Men and Kings of Winter, perhaps even The Others.  I wonder if we will get any of this richly embellished backstory for the Reach or Vale or even Iron Islands--they only look boring on the surface.    You start scratching your head over where the Seastone Chair could possibly have come from...As much as I really want to know the end of this story the journey is unlike any I've ever taken.  And I have the most interesting traveling companions...

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed here. For me, one of the best things I have found about this site is the way it has made me think twice about what I thought of characters, their plot arcs and different locations. And this thread in particular has got me even more excited than I was for Winds. I have started to really think about what could happen to the characters I have been following for up to five books - and started to think about my perception of those characters.

As for the potential for great speeches.....I have a number of thoughts on potentials - Jon when he returns to his body and self; Melisandre and/or Val trying to convince people to restore Jon to life; Asha - if she survives the north and returns to the Iron Islands to attempt an overturn of the Kingsmoot that elected Euron as her father's successor; Daenerys to the Dothraki as she attempts to turn events in her favour; someone on Team Aegon once they have taken King's Landing........the potential list is endless, and that is only major characters/plots. For me, hearing the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald speak of 'Broken Men' was stunning. So some minor characters we have yet to meet could surprise us. 

There is so much potential, as we have already discussed, for different characters and plot lines to come together in ways we haven't even begun to imagine.  My ultimate wish for Winds at the moment, though, is for two of the Stark kids to meet each other again. Pretty please?

[Curled Finger]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:25 AM, dornishdame said:

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed here. For me, one of the best things I have found about this site is the way it has made me think twice about what I thought of characters, their plot arcs and different locations. And this thread in particular has got me even more excited than I was for Winds. I have started to really think about what could happen to the characters I have been following for up to five books - and started to think about my perception of those characters.

As for the potential for great speeches.....I have a number of thoughts on potentials - Jon when he returns to his body and self; Melisandre and/or Val trying to convince people to restore Jon to life; Asha - if she survives the north and returns to the Iron Islands to attempt an overturn of the Kingsmoot that elected Euron as her father's successor; Daenerys to the Dothraki as she attempts to turn events in her favour; someone on Team Aegon once they have taken King's Landing........the potential list is endless, and that is only major characters/plots. For me, hearing the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald speak of 'Broken Men' was stunning. So some minor characters we have yet to meet could surprise us. 

There is so much potential, as we have already discussed, for different characters and plot lines to come together in ways we haven't even begun to imagine.  My ultimate wish for Winds at the moment, though, is for two of the Stark kids to meet each other again. Pretty please?

I like that, Dame.  I hadn't thought about any potential speech from Jon upon his er, waking.   I've thought that BR might have something stirring to say or even Leaf.   I'd bet the farm that GreatJon will say something very exciting. And a certain little Crannogman we've heard so much about but yet to meet.   Jaime?  Arya or The Hound when they face the deed in front of them?  Osha?  Davos?   Stannis?   Of course my mind wanders to every character who could have something important to say, but the audiences will be equally important. 

You know I'm touched that you really enjoy your time here with us Dame.   Actually, you have become part of "us" haven't you?   Your so often illuminating passages and clever weaving of unrelated passages is one of the things that makes this my favorite thread.  And I'm so excited to see where these characters we put so much time and energy into actually go.  This week, as I've abandoned my reread temporarily at roughly half way through Dance--busy toiling in the salt mines.   But I hope to be able to resume the adventure after next week as my thoughts are with Arya at this point and I expect an awful lot from her in Winds.  And beyond.   I invite any and all your thoughts on our little warrior lady!  And anything else that crosses your brilliant mind.    

[dornishdame]

On 2/26/2016 at 3:39 AM, Curled Finger said:

I like that, Dame.  I hadn't thought about any potential speech from Jon upon his er, waking.   I've thought that BR might have something stirring to say or even Leaf.   I'd bet the farm that GreatJon will say something very exciting. And a certain little Crannogman we've heard so much about but yet to meet.   Jaime?  Arya or The Hound when they face the deed in front of them?  Osha?  Davos?   Stannis?   Of course my mind wanders to every character who could have something important to say, but the audiences will be equally important. 

I think most characters have the potential to give us great speeches in Winds. I named a few off the top of my head, and your suggestions got me thinking of even more. Sitting thinking about it today, I really, really want more of the northern clansmen. I love reading them and they have such affection for the Starks. Hopefully Hugo Wull gets to bathe in Bolton blood and we get some sort of victory speech from him........I also have an interest in what Stannis said to the clansmen when he paid his visit - and how much reference he made to Jon. Clearly the Liddle and the Norrey did not travel all the way to Castle Black off the back of a request for a wet nurse. As I have said before, I think so many of the northern story lines will come together in Winds. I also find it interesting to compare these clansmen with those of the Vale, those that Tyrion encounters in Thrones. 

On 2/26/2016 at 3:39 AM, Curled Finger said:

You know I'm touched that you really enjoy your time here with us Dame.   Actually, you have become part of "us" haven't you?   Your so often illuminating passages and clever weaving of unrelated passages is one of the things that makes this my favorite thread.  And I'm so excited to see where these characters we put so much time and energy into actually go.  This week, as I've abandoned my reread temporarily at roughly half way through Dance--busy toiling in the salt mines.   But I hope to be able to resume the adventure after next week as my thoughts are with Arya at this point and I expect an awful lot from her in Winds.  And beyond.   I invite any and all your thoughts on our little warrior lady!  And anything else that crosses your brilliant mind.    

I do love this thread myself. Waiting for Winds, it is fun to speculate on what could happen - and doing so has helped me to open up how I think about the characters. I hope you get back to your re-read soon. As for Arya.......I love reading her POV chapters, and of all the Stark kids I think the theme of identity is most clearly laid bare in her POV. She takes on so many that sometimes it is difficult for her to recall just who she really is. But, as much as I enjoy reading her POV, it also makes me sad that a child so young is so obsessed with death, and willing to go to extreme lengths with that obsession. Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother speak of men broken by war, and I think Arya exemplifies the cost to children caught up in conflict and forced to grow up too quickly. 

My main hope for Arya in Winds is that she can find some way back to herself. To realize that she is not no-one, but Arya Stark of Winterfell. And there is a way back for her - 

She emptied her pouch into her palm; five silver stags, nine copper stars, some pennies and halfpennies and groats. She scattered them across the water. Next her boots. They made the loudest splashes. Her dagger followed, the one she'd gotten off the archer who had begged the Hound for mercy. Her swordbelt went into the canal. Her cloak, tunic, breeches, smallclothes, all of it. All but Needle.

She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goose fleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don't tell Sansa! Mikken's mark was on the blade. It's just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She'd been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. "It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . .

. . . but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain's men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father's gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can't have this. (Arya II in Feast)

She can't throw Needle away. And in keeping Needle, Arya keeps part of herself, part of who she truly is. As I have said before, I think that if there is one thing that can shock Arya back into herself and retreat from the brink, it is seeing what vengeance has done to her mother. An encounter with Lady Stoneheart is not for the faint hearted.......perhaps a reunion with one of her children may also make Lady Stoneheart more open to giving up the tenuous life she has built for herself since Beric gave her the kiss of life. But that is a digression. Arya will, I think, return to Westeros in Winds. Though where she goes is open for debate. She has an instinct for survival, so I think she will avoid the south. The Riverlands, the Vale or the North are the most likely destinations for her. White Harbor seems to be a city of trade, and the Manderlys are loyal to the Starks (though, of course, Arya cannot know how loyal Manderly is now). We have spoken a lot over the last few pages about the importance of what someone finds out and when - Stannis and the Iron Bank; JonCon and Doran and Daenerys's disappearance - Arya has encountered Sam and Dareon and heard stories of Jon.

She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman's Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad. (The Blind Girl in Dance)

First off, I find it interesting that she views everyone else as dead. She cannot have any proof of Sansa's death, for example, or those of Sansa's friends (though we can understand her assumptions). Secondly, this mention of Jon - Jon is a constant to her as well, something mirrored in his POV chapters, where he thinks of her regularly. Jon gave her Needle and is very much associated with the blade. I do wonder what Arya's reaction will be when the sailors in Braavos start talking of the mutiny at the Wall, and the overthrow of the Lord Commander. While I think that Lady Stoneheart is the only one with the ability to bring Arya back from the brink, Jon's reported death may push her there. I see Winds as being the book in which the separated Starks start to come back together. As of the end of Dance, Bran is in the far north, Rickon is on Skagos, Jon is at the Wall, Arya is in Braavos and Sansa is in the Vale. I'm not saying I think that all of them will meet again in Winds. Far from it. But I expect it to be the book in which two of these characters will meet - something that hasn't happened since Rickon and Bran separated at the end of Clash. 

[Curled Finger]

31 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I think most characters have the potential to give us great speeches in Winds. I named a few off the top of my head, and your suggestions got me thinking of even more. Sitting thinking about it today, I really, really want more of the northern clansmen. I love reading them and they have such affection for the Starks. Hopefully Hugo Wull gets to bathe in Bolton blood and we get some sort of victory speech from him........I also have an interest in what Stannis said to the clansmen when he paid his visit - and how much reference he made to Jon. Clearly the Liddle and the Norrey did not travel all the way to Castle Black off the back of a request for a wet nurse. As I have said before, I think so many of the northern story lines will come together in Winds. I also find it interesting to compare these clansmen with those of the Vale, those that Tyrion encounters in Thrones.   As more and more minds turn in anticipation of the possibilities TWOW holds, excitement will only build.   I'm sure I'm not the only yahoo who has to do a reread in preparation for the new season.  This forum is our voice, our exchange and our outlet.   I love chatting with new readers who happened upon the books like normal readers do, not as an extension of the show.   The wonder and confusion and sheer awe infects me all over again.   I love chatting with more well read readers who have studied the text more widely and voraciously than the little focus that I am able to manage.   It was during my second reread that I realized the clansmen with Stannis were NOT the same clansmen Tyrion fought with.    This confuses me as there don't really seem to beany other clansmen anywhere, unless that whole Vulture King thing between Dorne and The Stormlands is a type of clan thing?   IDK, but I sure want to.    

I do love this thread myself. Waiting for Winds, it is fun to speculate on what could happen - and doing so has helped me to open up how I think about the characters. I hope you get back to your re-read soon.  I think we've all opened our eyes with some of the excellent exchanges here.   Work prohibits me from enjoying the remainder of my reread just now, but I do expect it all to get back on track next weekend.   I need to enjoy it and it does require one's attention, so I want to listen to the last bit while I read it.  

As for Arya.......I love reading her POV chapters, and of all the Stark kids I think the theme of identity is most clearly laid bare in her POV. She takes on so many that sometimes it is difficult for her to recall just who she really is. But, as much as I enjoy reading her POV, it also makes me sad that a child so young is so obsessed with death, and willing to go to extreme lengths with that obsession. Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother speak of men broken by war, and I think Arya exemplifies the cost to children caught up in conflict and forced to grow up too quickly.    My main hope for Arya in Winds is that she can find some way back to herself. To realize that she is not no-one, but Arya Stark of Winterfell. And there is a way back for her - TBH, I think the whole "broken men" theme can be applied to all the major characters, Cersei's WOS was supposed to humble her, but all I expect it did, as yet another devastating loss, is to deepen her madness.  Bran wanted to be a knight and is now resigned to becoming a tree.   The subtle transition of all the characters is stunning.   None more so than Arya's.   So much discussion of her losing her ID to the FM--that the horrors she's witnessed would curb her humanity--that her unfathomable losses could strip her of her heritage--that her hiding behind so many names would make her No One--all logical.   Arya is ALWAYS the one to stop the progression of her demons.   She reels herself back, she is still very much capable of mercy and her own personal vengeance.    The FM try so hard to curb her sense of vengeance, but it simmers inside her.   It is the brutality and cunning she performs within Mercy that lets me know she is without a doubt, Arya Stark.    

She can't throw Needle away. And in keeping Needle, Arya keeps part of herself, part of who she truly is. As I have said before, I think that if there is one thing that can shock Arya back into herself and retreat from the brink, it is seeing what vengeance has done to her mother. An encounter with Lady Stoneheart is not for the faint hearted.......perhaps a reunion with one of her children may also make Lady Stoneheart more open to giving up the tenuous life she has built for herself since Beric gave her the kiss of life. But that is a digression. Arya will, I think, return to Westeros in Winds. Though where she goes is open for debate. She has an instinct for survival, so I think she will avoid the south. The Riverlands, the Vale or the North are the most likely destinations for her. White Harbor seems to be a city of trade, and the Manderlys are loyal to the Starks (though, of course, Arya cannot know how loyal Manderly is now). We have spoken a lot over the last few pages about the importance of what someone finds out and when - Stannis and the Iron Bank; JonCon and Doran and Daenerys's disappearance - Arya has encountered Sam and Dareon and heard stories of Jon.  Couldn't agree more with all of this, Dame.  

First off, I find it interesting that she views everyone else as dead. She cannot have any proof of Sansa's death, for example, or those of Sansa's friends (though we can understand her assumptions).  She has seen her father beheaded immediately after Joffrey mentions that his Lady begged for mercy--I thought Sansa was next for sure myself.   She's outside during the Red Wedding and has already experienced so much death around her, she expects this at every turn.  

Secondly, this mention of Jon - Jon is a constant to her as well, something mirrored in his POV chapters, where he thinks of her regularly. Jon gave her Needle and is very much associated with the blade. I do wonder what Arya's reaction will be when the sailors in Braavos start talking of the mutiny at the Wall, and the overthrow of the Lord Commander.    Thanks, Dame, I've wondered how, exactly, she would get the news.   Arya feels an outsider in her disconnection with all her mother and sister's expectations for her.   It's not her anymore than being a bastard with traitor's blood is Jon's sense of self.   They dance to the beat of their own drums and are "outsiders" within the family.   It is natural that they would gravitate toward each other and have "favorites" within their group.   Beside, they actually look more like each other than all the sibs, who look more like their mom.    It's such an interesting dynamic.    Chinks in the super family, if you please.   

While I think that Lady Stoneheart is the only one with the ability to bring Arya back from the brink, Jon's reported death may push her there.   In that I expected Arya would learn of Jon's er, disposition after arriving back home I would love to hear your take on this. You obviously see something more grounded than I can imagine, as imagine is all I do with no real idea who it would come about.    Lay it on me, I know you have something good here...

I see Winds as being the book in which the separated Starks start to come back together. As of the end of Dance, Bran is in the far north, Rickon is on Skagos, Jon is at the Wall, Arya is in Braavos and Sansa is in the Vale. I'm not saying I think that all of them will meet again in Winds. Far from it. But I expect it to be the book in which two of these characters will meet - something that hasn't happened since Rickon and Bran separated at the end of Clash.    Oh Come On Dame!   I've been waiting for Winds for 3 or 4 years now and you give me a cliffhanger too?    We were friends!   Which 2?  

 

[dornishdame]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

As more and more minds turn in anticipation of the possibilities TWOW holds, excitement will only build.   I'm sure I'm not the only yahoo who has to do a reread in preparation for the new season.  This forum is our voice, our exchange and our outlet.   I love chatting with new readers who happened upon the books like normal readers do, not as an extension of the show.   The wonder and confusion and sheer awe infects me all over again.   I love chatting with more well read readers who have studied the text more widely and voraciously than the little focus that I am able to manage.   It was during my second reread that I realized the clansmen with Stannis were NOT the same clansmen Tyrion fought with.    This confuses me as there don't really seem to beany other clansmen anywhere, unless that whole Vulture King thing between Dorne and The Stormlands is a type of clan thing?   IDK, but I sure want to.    

I have to admit that it was through the show that I found the books. I bought a boxset of seasons 1-3 after hearing good things about the show, and after watching the first episode I was online, ordering the books. That said, I now consider myself more a book reader than show watcher, and although I will tune in for season 6 in 8 weeks time, I look forward more to my next re-read than to my next viewing of the show. I've read the books many more times than I've watched any of the episodes, and I love the wider world that the books open up. It is great to get inside the heads of these amazing characters, and whatever the story, the book version is always better!!

As for the clansmen, my recollection is that they only exist in the North and the Vale. And while there are many differences between them, one thing they have in common is their respect for strong leadership. The Vale clansmen follow Tyrion into battle, and the Northmen seem to view the Stark in Winterfell as some sort of deity. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

TBH, I think the whole "broken men" theme can be applied to all the major characters, Cersei's WOS was supposed to humble her, but all I expect it did, as yet another devastating loss, is to deepen her madness.  Bran wanted to be a knight and is now resigned to becoming a tree.   The subtle transition of all the characters is stunning.   None more so than Arya's.   So much discussion of her losing her ID to the FM--that the horrors she's witnessed would curb her humanity--that her unfathomable losses could strip her of her heritage--that her hiding behind so many names would make her No One--all logical.   Arya is ALWAYS the one to stop the progression of her demons.   She reels herself back, she is still very much capable of mercy and her own personal vengeance.    The FM try so hard to curb her sense of vengeance, but it simmers inside her.   It is the brutality and cunning she performs within Mercy that lets me know she is without a doubt, Arya Stark.    

 And I think that one character in which we see this 'broken' concept is Jaime. In Storm he is physically broken when he loses his sword hand, but emotionally Jaime has been broken for a very long time. It is being forced into his own solitary company as a prisoner and hostage that makes him reflect, for the first time, on the person he wanted to be and the person he has become. Without that, and the journey he and Brienne undertake together, I am not sure he would have found it within him not to go running back to King's Landing and Cersei when she asks for his help. He is starting to piece himself back together in Feast, and knows that going back to her would be a step backwards. In fact, he really begins to reflect for the first time, I think, on being a father. 

"Tommen is no son of mine, no more than Joffrey was." His voice was hard. "You made them Robert's too." (Jaime I in Feast)

Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King's Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. He does like stamping papers with his seal. The boy might not even believe him, to be sure. Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. And whilst at that, he should find the lad a new small council too. If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men.(Jaime VII in Feast)

You are right about all the main characters being broken in some sort of way. That is, I think, what makes them human - they are fallible as we are, and are haunted by things that happened long ago, by things over which they had no control, by things they brought on themselves. 

As for Arya, she may be broken, but she has an inner strength that she may not even realize she possesses. And that, along with her anchor Needle, keeps her from completely letting go and becoming 'no-one'. No matter which part she is playing, which identity she has taken on, we can still see Arya Stark of Winterfell. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I've wondered how, exactly, she would get the news.   Arya feels an outsider in her disconnection with all her mother and sister's expectations for her.   It's not her anymore than being a bastard with traitor's blood is Jon's sense of self.   They dance to the beat of their own drums and are "outsiders" within the family.   It is natural that they would gravitate toward each other and have "favorites" within their group.   Beside, they actually look more like each other than all the sibs, who look more like their mom.    It's such an interesting dynamic.    Chinks in the super family, if you please.   

I think that Arya would possibly feel a greater part of her family - and consequently less of an outsider - had Ned found it within him to speak more of Lyanna. The Arya we meet in Thrones is very like her aunt, as Ned says, and I can't help thinking that Arya would have found comfort in hearing of another Stark woman interested in the same things she was. After all, Catelyn is not a Northerer by birth and the southron teachings Sansa accepts obediently do not allow for a woman to be a sword fighter (think of the lack of respect Brienne receives from Renly's men). I love this exchange:

"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." He lifted the sword, held it out between them. "Arya, what did you think to do with this … Needle? Who did you hope to skewer? Your sister? Septa Mordane? Do you know the first thing about sword fighting?"

All she could think of was the lesson Jon had given her. "Stick them with the pointy end," she blurted out. (Arya II in Thrones)

And this goes back again to Jon and Needle. They are both 'home' to Arya. And what is 'home' if it is not acceptance for who we are, no questions asked? And Jon is the only one that seems to accept Arya as she is. He doesn't treat her as a little girl, or try to change her to conform to a set of ideals. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

In that I expected Arya would learn of Jon's er, disposition after arriving back home I would love to hear your take on this. You obviously see something more grounded than I can imagine, as imagine is all I do with no real idea who it would come about.    Lay it on me, I know you have something good here...

I am not sure exactly how it would play out..........perhaps in Braavos Arya may hear rumors of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, overthrown by his men in a mutiny. Or a story of the Lord Commander turned traitor, letting wildlings pass to the other side of the Wall (a story I don't think Arya would believe, given that she was raised on Old Nan's stories of wildlings and could not see Jon allowing them to pass) and rumors of his past relationship with a wildling girl. Whatever is said would be a sensational version of true events, but it would be enough, I think, to upset Arya further and push her to the brink of vengeance. As for an Arya returned to Westeros, I think where she was may determine what she heard. The Northerners would, I think, be the most sympathetic to a son of Winterfell. And are closest to Castle Black - and therefore more likely to have heard something closer to the truth. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh Come On Dame!   I've been waiting for Winds for 3 or 4 years now and you give me a cliffhanger too?    We were friends!   Which 2?  

I don't know!! I wish I did. Bran is in a cave and will, I think, stay there throughout Winds. Logically, I think Jon and Rickon are the two most likely to meet in Winds. Both are in the North and both, I think, will be on the move in the next book. That said, Arya could return from Braavos and come across Sansa. But it is time, I think, for the Starks to come back together and re-form their 'pack'.

[Curled Finger]

59 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I have to admit that it was through the show that I found the books. I bought a boxset of seasons 1-3 after hearing good things about the show, and after watching the first episode I was online, ordering the books. That said, I now consider myself more a book reader than show watcher, and although I will tune in for season 6 in 8 weeks time, I look forward more to my next re-read than to my next viewing of the show. I've read the books many more times than I've watched any of the episodes, and I love the wider world that the books open up. It is great to get inside the heads of these amazing characters, and whatever the story, the book version is always better!!     Ah, Dear Dame, you are a reader at heart and it shows.    I'm sure you are the exception to the rule. 

As for the clansmen, my recollection is that they only exist in the North and the Vale. And while there are many differences between them, one thing they have in common is their respect for strong leadership. The Vale clansmen follow Tyrion into battle, and the Northmen seem to view the Stark in Winterfell as some sort of deity.     It is curious that there exist such back woods folk in the Vale.    I'd like more history about these people and how it is they landed on the perimeter of the civilized Vale without assimilating?

 And I think that one character in which we see this 'broken' concept is Jaime. In Storm he is physically broken when he loses his sword hand, but emotionally Jaime has been broken for a very long time. It is being forced into his own solitary company as a prisoner and hostage that makes him reflect, for the first time, on the person he wanted to be and the person he has become. Without that, and the journey he and Brienne undertake together, I am not sure he would have found it within him not to go running back to King's Landing and Cersei when she asks for his help. He is starting to piece himself back together in Feast, and knows that going back to her would be a step backwards. In fact, he really begins to reflect for the first time, I think, on being a father.    I'm looking at all of the events affecting our characters through the lens of war in the theme of broken men.     Jamie may be the most glaring example of this, as it is an act of war that found him prisoner and again to the loss of his hand.    He is brought low, as Septon Meribald explains how the foot soldiers are brought low in fighting for some rich man's ideal.   I doubt any of these characters would see the extreme transformations under normal daily peace time occurrences.   War touches everyone.  I expect the Vale in staying so adamantly out of the wars is due for some shocking repercussions.  

I think that Arya would possibly feel a greater part of her family - and consequently less of an outsider - had Ned found it within him to speak more of Lyanna. The Arya we meet in Thrones is very like her aunt, as Ned says, and I can't help thinking that Arya would have found comfort in hearing of another Stark woman interested in the same things she was. After all, Catelyn is not a Northerer by birth and the southron teachings Sansa accepts obediently do not allow for a woman to be a sword fighter (think of the lack of respect Brienne receives from Renly's men). I love this exchange:    You know that's a really good point.    Ned worked so hard to curtail talking about Lyanna and the events that led to her death.   Ned knows why and we certainly understand his reasons, but his children most definitely do not.   

And this goes back again to Jon and Needle. They are both 'home' to Arya. And what is 'home' if it is not acceptance for who we are, no questions asked? And Jon is the only one that seems to accept Arya as she is. He doesn't treat her as a little girl, or try to change her to conform to a set of ideals.    Yet another really good point. 

I am not sure exactly how it would play out..........perhaps in Braavos Arya may hear rumors of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, overthrown by his men in a mutiny. Or a story of the Lord Commander turned traitor, letting wildlings pass to the other side of the Wall (a story I don't think Arya would believe, given that she was raised on Old Nan's stories of wildlings and could not see Jon allowing them to pass) and rumors of his past relationship with a wildling girl. Whatever is said would be a sensational version of true events, but it would be enough, I think, to upset Arya further and push her to the brink of vengeance. As for an Arya returned to Westeros, I think where she was may determine what she heard. The Northerners would, I think, be the most sympathetic to a son of Winterfell. And are closest to Castle Black - and therefore more likely to have heard something closer to the truth.    We wait and wonder, wonder and wait...what will be the thing that brings Arya home?   This is the key reason I hesitate so much to declare Jon dead.  An injured Jon is something Arya could rally to.    A dead Jon is nothing she can help.   Let's go one step further, what could a resurrected Jon do to Arya?  I can see her propelling to his aid if such a story were to reach her.    If she waits long enough there may be the news of a death and mutiny, civil war in the North and Riverlands and all manner of shadow reports about home.  I've never been a big fan of the "Arya is sent by the FM on a mission" group.    She's done everything she's done pretty much on her own and on her own initiative.    Yes there are training assignments which I believe are meant to serve Arya later in the story.   (And I could be completely wrong about the whole thing, too)    I think everyone expects Arya to go home and break with the FM--it is only the details of these things happening that there is any disagreement.   Personally, I like the idea as you propose: She learns news in Braavos and makes the decision to go.   That's so Arya. 

I don't know!! I wish I did. Bran is in a cave and will, I think, stay there throughout Winds. Logically, I think Jon and Rickon are the two most likely to meet in Winds. Both are in the North and both, I think, will be on the move in the next book. That said, Arya could return from Braavos and come across Sansa. But it is time, I think, for the Starks to come back together and re-form their 'pack'.    There is a topic going now about who will kill whom in TWOW.   It wasn't a hate thread and I enjoyed seeing characters matched up.   Readers are putting characters together and not in the most direct manner.    That's what I think we do here.   You have to take a few jumps ahead in how you see the story playing out without actually knowing it will.   You have 2 characters supposed to be in the same general area.    If you've seen any of the spoiler pics from filming last summer you have seen Sansa and Jon together.   I hope we learn enough of Bran's power to see him begin to draw his sibs together.   Jon needs to leave the Wall, Rickon will need to resurface somewhere (and I'm still stuck on Nevet's idea about Hardhome and infinity), Sansa needs to be revealed and Arya needs to be confirmed.   I used to think it would be Arya and Sansa who wind up together in TWOW.   Now I think Arya will be the last to join the pack and that Rickon may very well find Bran.  The Skagosi are still a mystery to us probably because they have something to add to what we know about The Others.   That information needs to go to Bran.  I see (hope) Sansa distributing food from the Vale and I've wondered more than once if the Talisa character in the show didn't have Sansa's job from later in the story.  This would give her all sorts of opportunity to cross paths with people from the North who may also have news for her.   I expect Jon at Winterfell and to bring the North under a single banner and cause.   Traveling South could put him in direct contact with either Sansa or Arya.   Arya could land anywhere and needs to get to Nymeria--that could take her anywhere, but most directly to Sansa.   And Bran may not be stuck at the cave in which case I am fond of the idea of his exploring Gorne's way and popping up in the crypts at Winterfell.    So yes, it could happen any number of ways, but the pack will reunite.  

 

[dornishdame]

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, Dear Dame, you are a reader at heart and it shows.    I'm sure you are the exception to the rule. 

Yes, I am that person you overhear at the cinema saying 'it didn't happen that way in the book' or 'that character is nothing like their book version' or even 'that character would not wear that outfit at that time!' While I understand that it is difficult to condense long and oftentimes detailed books into a 2 hour movie, or 10 part TV series, not all changes are for the better! In fact, most are the opposite. 

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It is curious that there exist such back woods folk in the Vale.    I'd like more history about these people and how it is they landed on the perimeter of the civilized Vale without assimilating?

I went back to TWOIAF, and found this in the section on the arrival of the Andals:

The clans of the Mountains of the Moon are clearly descendants of the First Men who did not bend the knee to the Andals and so were driven into the mountains. Furthermore, there are similarities in their customs to the customs of the wildlings beyond the Wall—such as bride-stealing, a stubborn desire to rule themselves, and the like—and the wildlings are indisputably descended from the First Men.

I think I have said before that I view the northern clansmen as being akin to wildlings, and to the mountain clans - the above seems to imply a connection between the latter two groups. So perhaps there are links between all three. 

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm looking at all of the events affecting our characters through the lens of war in the theme of broken men.     Jamie may be the most glaring example of this, as it is an act of war that found him prisoner and again to the loss of his hand.    He is brought low, as Septon Meribald explains how the foot soldiers are brought low in fighting for some rich man's ideal.   I doubt any of these characters would see the extreme transformations under normal daily peace time occurrences.   War touches everyone.  I expect the Vale in staying so adamantly out of the wars is due for some shocking repercussions.  

Ah, Jaime! It isn't just the smallfolk that lose out in the War of the 5 Kings, and we see that in Jaime, in Sansa, in Lady Stoneheart........

He felt a bone-deep ache in his phantom fingers. I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war. (Jaime IX in Storm)

As for the Vale, they are in for a rude awakening. I recall Catelyn below in Clash - her sentiments could now apply to the knights of the Vale:

"War will make them old," Catelyn said, "as it did us." She had been a girl when Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn raised their banners against Aerys Targaryen, a woman by the time the fighting was done. "I pity them."

"Why?" Lord Rowan asked her. "Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?"

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming."

"Lady Catelyn, you are wrong." Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. "Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining."

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it. (Catelyn II in Clash)

If we look at Brienne's rebuttal and the impact war has had on her, and compare it to the knights of the Vale, I think we can see that they have no idea what is coming for them. House Royce may have the motto 'We Remember' - but how much will they remember when the long night comes?

One of the things generally that hits me about Feast each time I read it is the impact that the war has had on the people of Westeros. And, at the same time, you know as a reader that this is simply the calm before the storm reignites with the Ironborn raids, Aegon's landing, Dornish spears massing near the border with the Stormlands, the possibility of Daenerys coming to Westeros and the long night. 

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know that's a really good point.    Ned worked so hard to curtail talking about Lyanna and the events that led to her death.   Ned knows why and we certainly understand his reasons, but his children most definitely do not.   

I completely understand why Ned never speaks of Lyanna, and why he never tells everyone anything about the circumstances of her death - as you say, we all do. I think it isn't just the children that don't understand things because of it - Catelyn doesn't either. And it causes no end of problems. I do wonder exactly what they were told about all of it. The little we know of their teachings I think we mainly get from Bran, and from the Arya/Ned convo I quoted above. 

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." (Bran VII in Thrones)

As we know from his time with the Reeds, Bran's knowledge of his family's history is woeful....but I wonder if the main cause of it may be Ned's reluctance to talk about the past. Clearly they have been told the Robert Baratheon-approved version of events (with Ned sparing his wife and children the finer details of the deaths of his father, sister and brother - Catelyn doesn't even know how Brandon and Rickard died until Jaime tells her in Clash) and know little more. Because of this, Jon misses out on hearing stories of his mother, Arya misses out on identifying with a woman that was a kindred spirit, and both of them and the rest miss out on understanding why Ned is so traumatized by what happened. 

I don't want to get into a Catelyn debate again - I know we have discussed her before - but I will reiterate that while she was partially responsible for the way she neglects and ignores Jon as much as possible, Ned is equally culpable. She cannot understand his protectiveness of Jon and why he keeps him at Winterfell because she isn't operating with all of the relevant information. Ned's attempts to protect Catelyn from the truth lead to her having no desire to protect Jon. Ultimately, I think that Ned trusts Catelyn with his life, and with those of his children. He does not trust her, or anyone else, with Jon's life.

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 We wait and wonder, wonder and wait...what will be the thing that brings Arya home?   This is the key reason I hesitate so much to declare Jon dead.  An injured Jon is something Arya could rally to.    A dead Jon is nothing she can help.   Let's go one step further, what could a resurrected Jon do to Arya?  I can see her propelling to his aid if such a story were to reach her.    If she waits long enough there may be the news of a death and mutiny, civil war in the North and Riverlands and all manner of shadow reports about home.  I've never been a big fan of the "Arya is sent by the FM on a mission" group.    She's done everything she's done pretty much on her own and on her own initiative.    Yes there are training assignments which I believe are meant to serve Arya later in the story.   (And I could be completely wrong about the whole thing, too)    I think everyone expects Arya to go home and break with the FM--it is only the details of these things happening that there is any disagreement.   Personally, I like the idea as you propose: She learns news in Braavos and makes the decision to go.   That's so Arya. 

I was thinking about this again today, and I think I am settling on the Riverlands as the most likely destination for Arya - at least initially. Before she can come back to her 'pack', I think she first has to seek out Nymeria and reunite with her. The direwolves are a source of protection for the Stark kids, and Arya will need Nymeria's protection as she goes north. But yes, I can see speculative news about Jon being something that might push her to return to Westeros. As I said in my last post, Jon is Needle, and both are 'home'. And if someone takes her last part of home, her last real tie to the world she left, away from her - this could be what forces Arya to break with the FM and take vengeance. 

Ultimately, I think Arya will leave the FM in Winds. I think that she has learned a lot from them that will be useful to her in Winds and in Dream, as you say, but I do not think she will reach the stage within the organization that would involve being sent on complex missions with high-profile targets. She is not now, nor will she ever be, no-one. However much they try to crush it out of her, she will always be Arya Stark of Winterfell. And I also think that the events of Mercy may return her attention to her 'list'. This is not compatible with the life of a FM. Arya judges and takes vengeance; she is not a neutral carrying out orders. 

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There is a topic going now about who will kill whom in TWOW.   It wasn't a hate thread and I enjoyed seeing characters matched up.   Readers are putting characters together and not in the most direct manner.    That's what I think we do here.   You have to take a few jumps ahead in how you see the story playing out without actually knowing it will.   You have 2 characters supposed to be in the same general area.    If you've seen any of the spoiler pics from filming last summer you have seen Sansa and Jon together.   I hope we learn enough of Bran's power to see him begin to draw his sibs together.   Jon needs to leave the Wall, Rickon will need to resurface somewhere (and I'm still stuck on Nevet's idea about Hardhome and infinity), Sansa needs to be revealed and Arya needs to be confirmed.   I used to think it would be Arya and Sansa who wind up together in TWOW.   Now I think Arya will be the last to join the pack and that Rickon may very well find Bran.  The Skagosi are still a mystery to us probably because they have something to add to what we know about The Others.   That information needs to go to Bran.  I see (hope) Sansa distributing food from the Vale and I've wondered more than once if the Talisa character in the show didn't have Sansa's job from later in the story.  This would give her all sorts of opportunity to cross paths with people from the North who may also have news for her.   I expect Jon at Winterfell and to bring the North under a single banner and cause.   Traveling South could put him in direct contact with either Sansa or Arya.   Arya could land anywhere and needs to get to Nymeria--that could take her anywhere, but most directly to Sansa.   And Bran may not be stuck at the cave in which case I am fond of the idea of his exploring Gorne's way and popping up in the crypts at Winterfell.    So yes, it could happen any number of ways, but the pack will reunite.  

I tend not to judge what could happen in Winds by what is in the show. I think that with Sansa in particular they have veered way off from what is intended in the books (for now, at least). I think Sansa will be unmasked in Winds, and that it won't necessarily be a good thing. At least not at first. I have a feeling that Myranda Royce has suspicions as to Alayne's true identity, but of course with no Myranda POV we cannot be 100 per cent certain. There is this snippet though that makes me go hmmmm every time I read it:

"Lady Lysa was so wise, to keep us out of it."

Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. "Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady." She shifted her seat. "Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There's a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

"Our cousin Bronze Yohn had himself a mêlée at Runestone," Myranda Royce went on, oblivious, "a small one, just for squires. It was meant for Harry the Heir to win the honors, and so he did." (Alayne II in Feast)

One word I would never use when describing Myranda Royce is 'oblivious'. She may have simply been passing on Westerosi gossip, and after all the Royces are a family that have continued to send younger sons to the Night's Watch, but would Littlefinger's daughter be at all interested in Ned Stark's son being named LC? I think not. Oh, it is casually and slyly put in there......in the middle of news of the High Septon (applicable given Alayne was allegedly intended for the Faith) and news of Sweetrobin's heir, Harry, but I bet that Alayne knowing the name of Ned's bastard son was not something that passed Myranda by. After all - why would Alayne have that information??

"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."

As if a Myranda Royce would not know that northern bastards are named Snow. 

I see Sansa's true identity being forced out into the open for all to know. While it might make Harry the Heir more likely to marry her (in the knowledge that even if Sweetrobin outlives him, he may still be a Lord Paramount - or have a claim to such a title) it also leaves her open to kidnap attempts from those after Varys's reward. Looking at the maps of the Vale and the Riverlands, I wonder if she may end up near the Quiet Isle. A Sansa-Sandor-Arya reunion could be quite interesting. And I cannot see any reason to hint towards Sandor still being alive in the person of the gravedigger if it was not intended that he rejoin the main plot. 

I still see - at the moment - a Jon/Rickon reunion being the most likely in Winds. I look forward to Davos's POV chapters in Winds as we (hopefully) finally get to see Skagos. Bran will, I think, remain in the cave through Winds. I cannot see Bloodraven letting him leave (even temporarily) and as we see during his final Dance chapter, he is becoming more and more immersed in life there. A Jon/Rickon reunion would also be interesting as I think Jon will be more wolfish when he returns to his body, and Rickon grew the wildest in Thrones and Clash, the most like his direwolf. 

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Yes, I am that person you overhear at the cinema saying 'it didn't happen that way in the book' or 'that character is nothing like their book version' or even 'that character would not wear that outfit at that time!' While I understand that it is difficult to condense long and oftentimes detailed books into a 2 hour movie, or 10 part TV series, not all changes are for the better! In fact, most are the opposite.    It is those folks like you who encourage me to go read it myself.

I think I have said before that I view the northern clansmen as being akin to wildlings, and to the mountain clans - the above seems to imply a connection between the latter two groups. So perhaps there are links between all three.   Your ability to recall this stuff amazes me.  Now that it's out there I can't help but muse over the connections between the North and Vale at the clan level.   It's very interesting that the clans would stay in the Vale instead of migrating North.   I'll ponder this a bit and come back to you with 203 questions.

If we look at Brienne's rebuttal and the impact war has had on her, and compare it to the knights of the Vale, I think we can see that they have no idea what is coming for them. House Royce may have the motto 'We Remember' - but how much will they remember when the long night comes?  I've suspected that the house words are some hint to either the story at large or on some lesser more regional level.   Still House Royce is ancient so I'm going with "larger" straight off my hip.  

One of the things generally that hits me about Feast each time I read it is the impact that the war has had on the people of Westeros. And, at the same time, you know as a reader that this is simply the calm before the storm reignites with the Ironborn raids, Aegon's landing, Dornish spears massing near the border with the Stormlands, the possibility of Daenerys coming to Westeros and the long night.   War hasn't seemed to end at all throughout the last 4 books.   The threat is looming on all fronts.  Tywin and his great battle command ending only opened the door of opportunity for multiple groups to invade.  I'm hoping Stannis will at some point gain enough respect to prevent even more invasions.    I have a lot of hope for Stannis and view him as a constantly changing creature.  Without Mel and Davos to influence him he is left to his own devices, which as we are seeing, are strong and clever.    Still he is in a most precarious situation with so many enemies and casual alliances.   I am hoping Asha stays with him and proves the value of her request to make her "his man".   The anit-Euron IB need an alliance and Stannis has more to offer than anyone I can see on the board.  Just seeds in the wind again, but while I hope for greatness from Stannis I expect it from Asha.

I completely understand why Ned never speaks of Lyanna, and why he never tells everyone anything about the circumstances of her death - as you say, we all do. I think it isn't just the children that don't understand things because of it - Catelyn doesn't either. And it causes no end of problems. I do wonder exactly what they were told about all of it. As we know from his time with the Reeds, Bran's knowledge of his family's history is woeful....but I wonder if the main cause of it may be Ned's reluctance to talk about the past. Clearly they have been told the Robert Baratheon-approved version of events (with Ned sparing his wife and children the finer details of the deaths of his father, sister and brother - Catelyn doesn't even know how Brandon and Rickard died until Jaime tells her in Clash) and know little more. Because of this, Jon misses out on hearing stories of his mother, Arya misses out on identifying with a woman that was a kindred spirit, and both of them and the rest miss out on understanding why Ned is so traumatized by what happened.   There is a topic going now trying to investigate what Ned's promise to Lyanna might have been.  I can only base the promise upon Ned's actions and see the need for secrecy.  I don't know that there was a better way to handle any of it.   Despite Rickard's Southron Ambitions Ned is still something of an isolationist and does not trust even Cat easily.   I'm certain this is all for Jon and hope Jon is able to realize the sacrifice that was put into raising him.   We often think Jon is Ned's sonj.   Does this do justice to Rhaegar or Ned?   I'm not sure.   I know Ned, not Rhaegar.   Still Rhaegar may have been a man Ned held in high esteem.    I need another Barristan story.   I need Ashara Dayne.   We can't know for certain.  I cannot help but hpe Jon will learn everything and trust he will do wise things with the knowledge.  

I don't want to get into a Catelyn debate again - I know we have discussed her before - but I will reiterate that while she was partially responsible for the way she neglects and ignores Jon as much as possible, Ned is equally culpable. She cannot understand his protectiveness of Jon and why he keeps him at Winterfell because she isn't operating with all of the relevant information. Ned's attempts to protect Catelyn from the truth lead to her having no desire to protect Jon. Ultimately, I think that Ned trusts Catelyn with his life, and with those of his children. He does not trust her, or anyone else, with Jon's life.  That's a stunning statement Dame.  Perhaps Ned himself is aware of TPTWP prophesy?   Gads that never crossed my mind. 

I was thinking about this again today, and I think I am settling on the Riverlands as the most likely destination for Arya - at least initially. Before she can come back to her 'pack', I think she first has to seek out Nymeria and reunite with her. The direwolves are a source of protection for the Stark kids, and Arya will need Nymeria's protection as she goes north. But yes, I can see speculative news about Jon being something that might push her to return to Westeros. As I said in my last post, Jon is Needle, and both are 'home'. And if someone takes her last part of home, her last real tie to the world she left, away from her - this could be what forces Arya to break with the FM and take vengeance.   The table is set in the Riverlands for Arya's return to action.  I believe she will travel a great deal upon returning to Westeros, but where she lands will be critical to the big story as well as her arc.   If Arya's wolfblood is up she will need the counsel of a tempered killer and perhaps a meeting with a real monster fueled by vengeance to counter what she could become.    I think this scenario offers Arya  the most potential to get back on track with a just cause and just vengeance.    They all have something to learn and Arya needs to take her child soldier to maturity.   She was not meant to follow.  

. 

That's all for this morning.   I will try to address the rest of your post this evening.   Any thought's regarding what the promise was?