Septa Lemore Identity/Wording of Robert's Rebellion

[ChillyPolly]

I subscribe to the theory that Lemore is Melario of Norvos.

 

Unless we've been misled (which is always a possibility) here's what we know about Melario: (1) She loves her children and does not want to be separated from them.  (2) Doran is unwilling to separated her from ALL her children. (3)   She is somewhere in Essos -- supposedly Norvos.

 

Which is a mystery.  If the above information is true, then WTF is she doing in Essos, separated from all her children?

 

A possible solution is that she is not separated from all her children.  She is with one of them.  And that one of them is the man we know as "Young Griff".

 

Which raises another question.  If Young Griff was born to Melario of Norvos 18 years ago, then who is Quentyn Martell?  A twin?  Another child?  The real baby Aegon?

[purple-eyes]

i always feel she is mom of Tyene.
She will meet her daughter in KL.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

i always feel she is mom of Tyene.
She will meet her daughter in KL.

 

Tyene's mom is in the Reach.

[purple-eyes]

Tyene's mom is in the Reach.

I know, but she can travel....

[Lady Sharya]

I subscribe to the theory that Lemore is Melario of Norvos.
 
Unless we've been misled (which is always a possibility) here's what we know about Melario: (1) She loves her children and does not want to be separated from them.  (2) Doran is unwilling to separated her from ALL her children. (3)   She is somewhere in Essos -- supposedly Norvos.

I believe you have misunderstood the passage where it is said Doren didn't wan't to separate her from her children. They were still together when Doren planned to ward their youngest and she threatened suicide, so he kept the boy at home. It was later that she went back to Norvos.

My mind is drawing a blank on names today, but also, one of Arianna's partners in the crime of taking Marcella was sent to Melario in Norvos to be her cupbearer. Melario isn't "somewhere in Essos" in an unknown location.

[OuttaOldtown]

Consider that Varys & Illyrio formed the group (Griff, Haldon, Lemore..ect..) ten years earlier to properly raise Aegon as Varys brags to Kevan:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them".[/b]

I do not believe they would simply trust anyone. It needed to be people who are going to be involved in the eventual conquest as well, a mutually beneficial alliance would seem most logical. The problem is most of the powerful families in Westeros were trying to prove loyalty to Robert back then. But there is one who are wealthy, involved in trade, heavily represent the faith of the seven & haveTargaryen ties that could totally fly under Roberts radar.

The Hightowers:

"The Hightowers of Oldtown are among the oldest and proudest of the Great Houses of Westeros, tracing their descent back to the First Men. Once kings, they have ruled Oldtown and its environs since the Dawn of Days, welcoming the Andals rather than resisting them, and later bending the knee to the Kings of the Reach and giving up their crowns whilst retaining all their ancient privileges. Though powerful and immensely wealthy, the Lords of the High Tower have traditionally preferred trade to battle, and have seldom played a large part in the wars of Westeros. The Hightowers were instrumental in the founding of the Citadel and continue to protect it to this day. Subtle and sophisticated, they have always been great patrons of learning and the Faith, and it is said that certain of them have also dabbled in alchemy, necromancy, and other sorcerous arts."

"Learning and the Faith" practically describes what the two of them are doing for Aegon. And the
reason i think their involvement in trade is important is that could be the tie to Illyrio who would surly have business in Oldtown. And they've also "pledged" themselves to the Targaryen's. Lord Leyton Hightower even named two of his children Baelor & Alysanne:

"Three hundred years ago, when Aegon the Dragon landed beneath this very hill, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights, taking no nourishment but bread and water. When he emerged he announced that the Faith would not oppose Aegon and his sisters, for the Crone had lifted up her lamp to show him what lay ahead. If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed. Lord Hightower was a godly man. When he heard the prophecy, he kept his strength at home and opened the city gates to Aegon when he came. And His High Holiness anointed the Conqueror with the seven oils. I must do as he did, three hundred years ago. I must pray, and fast.

They have a history of involving themselves with the Targs, Otto Hightower was the primary figure behind the "greens" causing the Dance of the Dragons and ultimately weakening the family. If you believe Aegon isn't who they say he is it begins to make more sense.

So given those factors I started to dig deeper & noticed Laswell Peake exiled Lord of Pykewood now fighting with the GC said this:

Even after a century, some of us still have friends in the Reach. The power of Highgarden may not be what Mace Tyrell imagines."

The reason this is so important is because Leyton Hightower is the grandfather of Margaery Tyrell, however her grandmother Rhea Hightower is a Florent! So Leyton is not a clear cut ally of the Tyrells by any means from what I can tell.

We've also been led to believe that Leyton & his daughter Malora "the Mad Maid" have been locked away in a tower for a decade:

"Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade."

To be sure. Lord Leytons locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells..

Well from what we know about Aegon he's been with Griff, Haldon & Lemore for about a decade too. Tyrion identifies Aegon & JonCon but cannot figure out who Haldon & Lemore are but fully believes they are pretending like all the rest.

So I think Leyton might be Haldon and/or Lemore might be Malora. The names are sort of similar which adds validity. Creating a story of being locked in the tower is a great way to prevent anyone from looking for you. They have everything to gain, if this is successful it would return them to the stature they havent seen since the Dance.

From an Illyrio/Varys standpoint, with only the GC they do not appear strong enough to conquer & defend KL. And Illyrio has no ties to the faith of the seven but knows Aegon will need to be educated in it, and more importantly this alliance gives them another army in Westeros.

Interestingly the two seem heavily in favor of aligning with Aegon with Dany, the reason may be this:

"If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed."

So their resources cannot be used against Dany, even during the Dance the Hightower forces would not march on KL when the "blacks" controlled the city. Sam says this regarding the Leyton & his strength:

My father always said he was [b]as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgardens other bannermen."

That sounds like something Aegon may need before long. They don't resort to war often which would catch the Lannisters off guard. There's also this interesting tidbit:

"Ahead." Lemore's voice was shivery. "A light."

Maybe just a coincidence but the Hightower's house words are "We Light the Way."

The most common theory is Ashara is Lemore, the issues of the eyes not being mentioned & JonCon's POV lacking evidence that he knew her prior to the formation of the group set to raise Aegon seems to be a major hole. We know from the story of the Knight at the Laughing tree that he & Ashara shared a dance & yet he states he's "grown fond of Lemore".

I'm certainly far from confident on this but wanted to throw something out there other than the same ole same ole. My thinking is GRRM gave is little to go on with their physical features, so the clues must be in the finer details. And their absence is really curious considering their role in the past.

Feel free to disagree..

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I know, but she can travel....

 

Lemore and the rest of the Shy Maid crew are always moving around and in hiding. I doubt Lemore is given some free time to go and visit her daughter. Besides, neither Griff or Varys would allow it as it can endanger their plans.

[purple-eyes]

Lemore and the rest of the Shy Maid crew are always moving around and in hiding. I doubt Lemore is given some free time to go and visit her daughter. Besides, neither Griff or Varys would allow it as it can endanger their plans.

Oh. I mean after she went to KL with aegon she will meet Tyene there. Not before.
By the way, I do agree hightower will support aegon, they are friends in reach.

[ChillyPolly]

I believe you have misunderstood the passage where it is said Doren didn't wan't to separate her from her children. They were still together when Doren planned to ward their youngest and she threatened suicide, so he kept the boy at home. It was later that she went back to Norvos.

My mind is drawing a blank on names today, but also, one of Arianna's partners in the crime of taking Marcella was sent to Melario in Norvos to be her cupbearer. Melario isn't "somewhere in Essos" in an unknown location.

 

Nope.  I have not misunderstood anything.  I understand what the official story is.  I merely explained why it does not make sense.   If Melario loves her children, and Doran was (as he says) unwilling to separate her from ALL her children, then why is she now separated from ALL her children?

 

Doran sending Ser Andrey to Norvos does not prove that Melario is in Norvos.  It is merely behavior consistent with the cover story.  Presumably, he can send Ser Andrey away for 3 years, even if Melario is not there in person to receive him.  She's got relatives there, right?

 

Also, TWOIAF suggests that Norvos was founded by Valyria, which in turn suggests that the nobility of Norvos (such as Melario) may be of the blood of Old Valyria, which could be sufficient explanation for Young Griff's appearance.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh. I mean after she went to KL with aegon she will meet Tyene there. Not before.
By the way, I do agree hightower will support aegon, they are friends in reach.

 

Arianne remembers to have travelled to the Reach with Tyene to visit Tyene's mother. Such woman cannot be in two places at the same time. Looks like Lemore has been with them for the past ten years or so.

[Lady Sharya]

OuttaOldtown@
I am a firm believer that the Hightowers have a major role to play in upcoming events. I would not be suprised if they were not the true power of the Reach, and their absence in contributing troupes to the war efforts are highly conspicuous...yet not mentioned by anyone. They have far too many resources (gold, Citadel, Faith, untouched troups, a port) to be allowed to sit on the sidelines as they do, especially since the Reach is fully involved. The Vale had pressure to become involved, so why not the Hightowers? All this (& the suspicous story of being locked up pouring over spells) leads me to believe they know and are involved in something big.

So, your idea certainly has merit. I wouldn't go so far as to say Haldon and Lemore are Lewton and Malora, but they could very well be Hightowers.

[purple-eyes]

Arianne remembers to have travelled to the Reach with Tyene to visit Tyene's mother. Such woman cannot be in two places at the same time. Looks like Lemore has been with them for the past ten years or so.

You are right.
Maybe she is just a regular septa who ran off from westeros after her scandal.

[purple-eyes]

OuttaOldtown@
I am a firm believer that the Hightowers have a major role to play in upcoming events. I would not be suprised if they were not the true power of the Reach, and their absence in contributing troupes to the war efforts are highly conspicuous...yet not mentioned by anyone. They have far too many resources (gold, Citadel, Faith, untouched troups, a port) to be allowed to sit on the sidelines as they do, especially since the Reach is fully involved. The Vale had pressure to become involved, so why not the Hightowers? All this (& the suspicous story of being locked up pouring over spells) leads me to believe they know and are involved in something big.
So, your idea certainly has merit. I wouldn't go so far as to say Haldon and Lemore are Lewton and Malora, but they could very well be Hightowers.

Agree.
Hightower is too important to miss in the future books!
If we are going to have a dance 2.0, then we may have another chaos led by house hightower.

[Lady Sharya]

Nope.  I have not misunderstood anything.  I understand what the official story is.  I merely explained why it does not make sense.   If Melario loves her children, and Doran was (as he says) unwilling to separate her from ALL her children, then why is she now separated from ALL her children?
 
Doran sending Ser Andrey to Norvos does not prove that Melario is in Norvos.  It is merely behavior consistent with the cover story.  Presumably, he can send Ser Andrey away for 3 years, even if Melario is not there in person to receive him.  She's got relatives there, right?
 
Also, TWOIAF suggests that Norvos was founded by Valyria, which in turn suggests that the nobility of Norvos (such as Melario) may be of the blood of Old Valyria, which could be sufficient explanation for Young Griff's appearance.

Okay, this is another theory where, instead of looking for text to support your claims, you look for text you can dispute to make your claim.;) This doesn't work for me because inconsistent narration from a character isn't the same as inconsistent info given of events. I simply don't think GRRM gives false info & clues to trick his readers.;)

[ChillyPolly]

Okay, this is another theory where, instead of looking for text to support your claims, you look for text you can dispute to make your claim.

 

I told you what the theory was based on.  You're free to ignore what I said.  It's just that we can't have a discussion.  Bye.

[ChillyPolly]

I simply don't think GRRM gives false info & clues to trick his readers.

 

Hmff.

[Lady Sharya]

Hmff.

What does Hmff mean? Or do I want to know?;)

[ChillyPolly]

What does Hmff mean? Or do I want to know?

 

Doesn't matter.  Let's change the subject.  

 

Who do you think Lemore is?    I imagine you just think she's a septa named Lemore, and that Young Griff really is baby Aegon.  Or am I wrong?

[Ser Knute]

I think both theories have some merit as far as plausibility, just not enough yet to make me lean towards one or another with certainty.  

 

I do have a feeling that these pockets of Planetos that have Valyrian dominant features could be a hint towards an impostor sort of scenario, it seems to be too often mentioned to not have any meaning.

 

I also feel that the Hightower angle has merit too as it would seem a little odd to have a House so prominent in the backstory (and still exists in the main story) to not have any importance in the main story.

[Makk]

OuttaOldtown, best theory I have seen on Lemore and Haldon's identities. Lot of speculation but I didn't like any of the other theories I have read of the subject if indeed they are more than they appear.