Septa Lemore Identity/Wording of Robert's Rebellion

[Lady Sharya]

Oh, it is a SSM. 
 
Doran and Mellario had discussed the reasons for why he wanted to send his children away, why did she leave?
It wasn't a good marriage. They married because of an attraction to something new and exotic. Sometimes, attraction happens when you least expect it. He was a prince of a distant country, and shew as a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture. When she comes to Dorne, she finds that there are customs that are different from those of Norvos, especially regarding the fostering away of children to others. This wasn't a political marriage, nor a magical one, it was simply an example of human nature. Sometimes relationships start on a good foot: you become acquainted, there's a great sexual attraction, you establish a relationship, you marry... and then in four or five years you realize that you don't really have anything in common, that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common. This is an example that it's not only marriages of convenience that fail, but even the marriages for love can fail.
Sometimes the marriages of convenience in the Seven Kingdoms come out well and those that are for love don't. Sometimes a couple loves one another, and then at some point they don't. There are marriages that also develop out of nothing more than lust (laughs). There's no guarantee that things will go well and the consequence of this is that disappointments develop and you end up estranged, each person going their own way. There's some bitterness from Mellario about this, because as Prince of Dorne, Doran has been able to stay with his children and she has had to leave them.

Is this a quote? I do recall a few sentences mentioned with regard to their marriage and, like you I assumed that she left Dorne on her own, but where is it stated?

[purple-eyes]

Is this a quote? I do recall a few sentences mentioned with regard to their marriage and, like you I assumed that she left Dorne on her own, but where is it stated?

 

This is one SSM, he answered some questions to the readers. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Melario had to leave because....

 

 

...the plot required Arianne to be stranded from her family. :dunno:

 

Also to prove that, for Doran, Dorne > His family's needs.

[Lady Sharya]

This is one SSM, he answered some questions to the readers.

I'm sorry, I keep missing your answers to my questions. Was that a quote from a few sentences or did he go into that much detail on Westerosi marriages. Still, where is it stated that she left on her own?

[purple-eyes]

I'm sorry, I keep missing your answers to my questions. Was that a quote from a few sentences or did he go into that much detail on Westerosi marriages. Still, where is it stated that she left on her own?

 

That whole thing was from him. 

question: Doran and Mellario had discussed the reasons for why he wanted to send his children away, why did she leave?

Answer of GRRM: It wasn't a good marriage. They married because of an attraction to something new and exotic. Sometimes, attraction happens when you least expect it. He was a prince of a distant country, and shew as a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture. When she comes to Dorne, she finds that there are customs that are different from those of Norvos, especially regarding the fostering away of children to others. This wasn't a political marriage, nor a magical one, it was simply an example of human nature. Sometimes relationships start on a good foot: you become acquainted, there's a great sexual attraction, you establish a relationship, you marry... and then in four or five years you realize that you don't really have anything in common, that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common. This is an example that it's not only marriages of convenience that fail, but even the marriages for love can fail.

Sometimes the marriages of convenience in the Seven Kingdoms come out well and those that are for love don't. Sometimes a couple loves one another, and then at some point they don't. There are marriages that also develop out of nothing more than lust (laughs). There's no guarantee that things will go well and the consequence of this is that disappointments develop and you end up estranged, each person going their own way. There's some bitterness from Mellario about this, because as Prince of Dorne, Doran has been able to stay with his children and she has had to leave them.

 

 

Although he did not say explicitly that she left them on her own. But I think it is safe to say that GRRM means they had different views and eventually went their own way. 

His wife wanted to leave him (and dorne) and go back to her hometown, but their children are royal children of Dorne so of course she had to leave them in Dorne with Doran. 

She is bitter about this, not because Doran forced her to leave. 

[Lady Sharya]

That whole thing was from him. 
Although he did not say explicitly that she left them on her own. But I think it is safe to say that GRRM means they had different views and eventually went their own way. 
His wife wanted to leave him (and dorne) and go back to her hometown, but their children are royal children of Dorne so of course she had to leave them in Dorne with Doran. 
She is bitter about this, not because Doran forced her to leave. 

Well, thank you. I knew this though. I was looking for evidence.

[idio]

This is partially true, but the point is that Mellario threatens to harm herself if Doran takes another of her children from her.

Mellario then leaves Doran and returns to Norvos, losing all of her children. Something about that seems peculiar. She's threatening to harm herself over losing a child, and then she sets off without any of her children. I don't believe the Young Griff is Quentyn idea, but I do think that something is odd about the situation. I just don't have any idea what.

 

I have no idea why this is strange. Princes who can raise tens of thousands of men tend to get their way of things. What leverage does Mellario have other than the threat of her own life? She's just some random pretty lady from Essos.

[Isobel Harper]

 
Yes and that is one of the worst theories in the history.

Meh. It's probably not true, but it's not that bad.

[Lady Sharya]

I have no idea why this is strange. Princes who can raise tens of thousands of men tend to get their way of things. What leverage does Mellario have other than the threat of her own life? She's just some random pretty lady from Essos.

It's strange that a mother who would threaten to harm herself if her husband sent another of her children off to ward somewhere else, would willingly leave them all behind because her marriage is less than perfect.
And she is the mother of these children we are talking about, not "just some random pretty lady from Essos." it is her motivation we are questioning, not Doran's power to keep them in Dorne. For example, why wouldn't she find elsewhere to live in Dorne to stay close to her children?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Meh. It's probably not true, but it's not that bad.

 

Actually, it is very bad. It's sustained in people insisting and overinsisting that because Martin hasn't mentioned Lemore's eye colour, they're purple, and that Tyrion has noticed it, but he (and even Griff) keeps information in his mind from us, readers. Not only that goes against Martin's style but also uses absence of evidence as evidence.

 

It's one of the most forced theories people keep insisting to be real, and it's tiresome.

[Isobel Harper]

 
Actually, it is very bad. It's sustained in people insisting and overinsisting that because Martin hasn't mentioned Lemore's eye colour, they're purple, and that Tyrion has noticed it, but he (and even Griff) keeps information in his mind from us, readers. Not only that goes against Martin's style but also uses absence of evidence as evidence.
 
It's one of the most forced theories people keep insisting to be real, and it's tiresome.

I dunno. I've heard much worse. (But maybe I've just been on the forums too long.)

[OuttaOldtown]

 
Actually, it is very bad. It's sustained in people insisting and overinsisting that because Martin hasn't mentioned Lemore's eye colour, they're purple, and that Tyrion has noticed it, but he (and even Griff) keeps information in his mind from us, readers. Not only that goes against Martin's style but also uses absence of evidence as evidence.
 
It's one of the most forced theories people keep insisting to be real, and it's tiresome.

I agree, it's incredibly baseless, Dayne fans are dying to have a character other than Darkstar in the story representing this house..

[purple-eyes]

I agree, it's incredibly baseless, Dayne fans are dying to have a character other than Darkstar in the story representing this house..

 

Talking about Darkstar, should he have a same sigil as Starfall dayne or he should have a different one?

[OuttaOldtown]

 
Talking about Darkstar, should he have a same sigil as Starfall dayne or he should have a different one?

Yes very likely, other cadet branches have a different sigil..

[Taenqyrhae]

If Lemore isn't Ashara Dayne, GRRM intended for people to think she might be as a red herring.  There is no way a guy who writes such detailed descriptions of characters and keeps a list of all their physical characteristics to keep it straight, who describes the eye colors of virtually every semi-major character, to leave that out by accident when Tyrion was looking at her so closely.

[HexMachina]

 
I have no idea why this is strange. Princes who can raise tens of thousands of men tend to get their way of things. What leverage does Mellario have other than the threat of her own life? She's just some random pretty lady from Essos.

Its peculiar because she didn't need to leave. Doran wasnt forcing her. They didnt love each other anymore, but that doesnt mean he forced her to leave. If seems to me that if she wanted to stay with her children so much she was willing to harm herself rather than let them go, that she would also be able to stay with a man she doesnt love to be near them

[idio]

It's strange that a mother who would threaten to harm herself if her husband sent another of her children off to ward somewhere else, would willingly leave them all behind because her marriage is less than perfect.
And she is the mother of these children we are talking about, not "just some random pretty lady from Essos." it is her motivation we are questioning, not Doran's power to keep them in Dorne. For example, why wouldn't she find elsewhere to live in Dorne to stay close to her children?

 

I felt like GRRM was speaking in generalities about relationships failing and not that specifically Mellario and Doran each went their own ways willingly.

 

I'm open to that being the case, but I just felt he was not talking about that specific situation, just broadly about the human nature of relationships.

 

In my mind, I always assumed she was sent away against her will.

[Lady Sharya]

I felt like GRRM was speaking in generalities about relationships failing and not that specifically Mellario and Doran each went their own ways willingly.
 
I'm open to that being the case, but I just felt he was not talking about that specific situation, just broadly about the human nature of relationships.
 
In my mind, I always assumed she was sent away against her will.

That's kinda what I was thinking because I haven't found anything in the books specifically stating that she "wanted" to leave here children. I don't really find that interview to be confirming they simply went their separate ways and Mellario never looked back.;)

[The Dragons Hand]

Purple eyes.

Ashara had purple eyes.

Nobody seems to care about Septa Lemores eyes, so it is unlikely.

But at least this had nothing to do with the fucking Lemon Tree's for once.

[bent branch]

 

Good points.  I think, if memory is serving today, that by this time Haldon and Tyrion had already played their game(s) of Cyvasse for secrets yes?  So this is a clue that he knows Haldon's identity, but has yet to reveal it to the reader.  I'm not saying they're characters from the past or characters whose past is left ambiguous... just that Tyrion knows or has guessed.

 

 

Yes, I think it is a clue that Tyrion already knows Haldon's identity. Without getting into things too deeply, I think it is significant that whatever Haldon told Tyrion convinced Tyrion completely that Aegon was who he appeared to be. That makes two very cynical men in the story who were convinced of Aegon's identity (JonCon being the other).

 

As a reader, I think it is wise to take into account how the characters in the story react to information that is not shared with the reader. We don't know how JonCon and Tyrion were convinced of Aegon's legitimacy, but I do think we should take it seriously. Aegon may eventually be proven fake, but it won't be anywhere near as simple as people think.

 

Anyway, I think the evidence presented to JonCon and Tyrion was the background of Haldon (and Lemore for JonCon). I am convinced both Haldon and Lemore will be someone associated with the Targaryens in such a manner as to make their explanation of how they came to be with Aegon very believable. Because of this I think Lemore is Ashara Dayne and Haldon is the maester that delivered Aegon.