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J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.156

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories
 
Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose
 
Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

 
[spoiler]Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

 

(Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to [TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J threads.)

 

[spoiler]The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"
[/spoiler]
"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)
 
"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)
 
"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)
 
"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)
 
"R+L=J v.130" (thread one hundred thirty)
 
"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)
 
"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)


"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

 
"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)
 
"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)
 
"R+L=J v.136" (thread one hundred thirty six)
 
"R+L=J v.137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)
 
"R+L=J v.138" (thread one hundred thirty eight)
 
"R+L=J v.139" (thread one hundred thirty nine)
 
"R+L=J v.140" (thread one hundred forty)
 
"R+L=J v.141" (thread one hundred forty one)
 
"R+L=J v.142" (thread one hundred forty two)

"R+L=J v.143" (thread one hundred forty three)

"R+L=J v.144" (thread one hundred forty four)
 
"R+L=J v.145" (thread one hundred forty five)

 
"R+L=J v.146" (thread one hundred forty six)
 
"R+L=J v.147" (thread one hundred forty seven)
 
"R+L=J v.148" " (thread one hundred forty eight)
 

"R+L=J v.149" (thread one hundred forty nine)
 
"R+L=J v.150" (thread one hundred fifty)
 
"R+L=J v.151" (thread one hundred fifty one)

 
"R+L=J v.152" (thread one hundred fifty two)
 
"R+L=J v.153" (thread one hundred fifty three)
 
"R+L=J v.154" (thread one hundred fifty four)

 
"R+L=J v.155" (thread one hundred fifty five)[/spoiler]

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I added spoiler tags around the TWoIaF RLJ threads. I hope no one minds.
 
---
 
From the last thread.

 

Ygrain,
 

BTW, does anyone have a theory why we keep getting all that infodump about mariages without king's permission in the ouside-the-series material? Daemon and Rhaenyra, Jaehaerys and Shaera, Duncan and Jenny, Maegor and what's-her-name?

 
I do, I do! ;)

 

SFDanny,

 

I agree. From a purely political standpoint, Rhaegar is gambling he is more important as a support to his father than the potential of his father disinheriting him in favor of Viserys. Given Aerys dwindling support, it is not an outrageous thought that Aerys would decide in Rhaegar's favor. In fact, that is what happens when Aerys's decides he needs Rhaegar if he has any real chance of winning against the rebels. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, Rhaegar has even told Aerys of a second marriage - only that he decides Rhaegar's fascination with this Stark girl does not outweigh his usefulness.

 

Agreed. I made this same point a few threads back myself. People can speculate all they'd like about Aerys executing Rhaegar for treason after he kidnapped Lyanna, but the fact of the matter this didn't happen. He sided with Rhaegar against the rebels.

 

LV,

 

Aegon the Unworthy was very interested in taking multiple wives, else there wouldn't have been this 'fake wedding' with Merry Meg - if it was a fake wedding (by that time he had long been married to his sister). Perhaps Prince Viserys later only proclaimed it had been a mummer dressed as a septon to downplay the scandal. This was still during the reign of Aegon III, after all.

 

A fake wedding makes it seems like the exact opposite is true.

 

JonCon's Red Beard,

 

It does if you assume the real reason for Rhaegar being in the tower with Lyanna was never Lyanna but politics.

 

I wish I have the time to start a thread with this, but if you take that as an assumption, and part from that and only that, the scenario is more fitting than all of it being for love or prophecy. Sadly, that idea is not very popular among many RLJ'ers. :dunno:

 

(IICR, that was a method of solving equations and/or proving the value of propositions. Something like "assume an absurd" to prove the veracity or not of an idea).

 

I've posted things along these lines for a while now myself. I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

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I added spoiler tags around the TWoIaF RLJ threads. I hope no one minds.
 
---
 
From the last thread.
 
Ygrain,
 
 
I do, I do! ;)
 
SFDanny,
 
 
Agreed. I made this same point a few threads back myself. People can speculate all they'd like about Aerys executing Rhaegar for treason after he kidnapped Lyanna, but the fact of the matter this didn't happen. He sided with Rhaegar against the rebels.
 
LV,
 
 
A fake wedding makes it seems like the exact opposite is true.
 
JonCon's Red Beard,
 
 
I've posted things along these lines for a while now myself. I'd be interested to read your thoughts.


Honestly Aerys seems good to rhaegar from the very beginning.
When Brandon came to shout for rhaegar's death, Aerys did not take this as a good chance to capture or at least question and investigate rhaegar, instead, he killed many Starks to defend his son and let rhaegar have time to enjoy his fun with lyanna. He ordered the heads of Robert and Ned, this is also very helpful to rhaegar. You know, get rid of lyanna's fiancée and family. Then nobody can take lyanna from rhaegar.
He fought for a long time with rebels. Only summon rhaegar until he is losing. This gave enough time to rhaegar to make sure lyanna pregnant.
He listened to his suggestion about tywin after he came back and trusted 40000 men to rhaegar.
He was so mad after rhaegar's death that he blamed Lewyn for his death.
Aerys trusted and loved his son, I have to say.
Is it possible that he was even on board with the prophecy?

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I added spoiler tags around the TWoIaF RLJ threads. I hope no one minds.
 
 

I certainly don't mind or really care, but I am not sure what the point is. It is only a few threads, so the length is not really an issue. But if you think it flows better that way -- works for me (as if my opinion really matters).

 

 

Honestly Aerys seems good to rhaegar from the very beginning.
When Brandon came to shout for rhaegar's death, Aerys did not take this as a good chance to capture or at least question and investigate rhaegar, instead, he killed many Starks to defend his son and let rhaegar have time to enjoy his fun with lyanna. He ordered the heads of Robert and Ned, this is also very helpful to rhaegar. You know, get rid of lyanna's fiancée and family. Then nobody can take lyanna from rhaegar.
He fought for a long time with rebels. Only summon rhaegar until he is losing. This gave enough time to rhaegar to make sure lyanna pregnant.
He listened to his suggestion about tywin after he came back and trusted 40000 men to rhaegar.
He was so mad after rhaegar's death that he blamed Lewyn for his death.
Aerys trusted and loved his son, I have to say.
Is it possible that he was even on board with the prophecy?

Well, IIRC, LV has put forth some suggestions that Aerys knew about the marriage and was OK with it. I am skeptical. But LV's theory certainly would suggest that Aerys was on board with the prophecy thing.

 

I, on the other hand, don't think Rhaegar discussed the prophecy with his father. The prophecy forced Aerys to marry Rhaella, and I think that made Aerys not such a fan of the prophecy.  But I think Aerys loved his son -- and even more important, Aerys would never tolerate someone insulting or attacking a member of the royal family, especially the heir to the throne. But after Harrenhal, I think Aerys was suspicious of his son -- and apparently with good reason. Even at the end, it appears Rhaegar told Jaime that upon returning from the Trident, "things would change" which many people suspect means Rhaegar was going to try to force a regency on his father with Rhaegar calling the shots as the regent holding powers of the King and Aerys treated as mentally incompetent to rule himself -- but that is also just speculation.

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I certainly don't mind or really care, but I am not sure what the point is. It is only a few threads, so the length is not really an issue. But if you think it flows better that way -- works for me (as if my opinion really matters).

 

The point? So it looks neater. The spoiler section was kind of messy. It could still maybe use a little tidying up. Not that TWoIaF section was a big deal by itself, but I decided to change it when I fixed the text size issues from versions 115-148, right after TWoIaF section. For some reason they were smaller than the rest. Take a look at the last version of this thread if you want to see what I mean. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134965-rlj-v155/

 

Honestly Aerys seems good to rhaegar from the very beginning.
When Brandon came to shout for rhaegar's death, Aerys did not take this as a good chance to capture or at least question and investigate rhaegar, instead, he killed many Starks to defend his son and let rhaegar have time to enjoy his fun with lyanna. He ordered the heads of Robert and Ned, this is also very helpful to rhaegar. You know, get rid of lyanna's fiancée and family. Then nobody can take lyanna from rhaegar.
He fought for a long time with rebels. Only summon rhaegar until he is losing. This gave enough time to rhaegar to make sure lyanna pregnant.
He listened to his suggestion about tywin after he came back and trusted 40000 men to rhaegar.
He was so mad after rhaegar's death that he blamed Lewyn for his death.
Aerys trusted and loved his son, I have to say.
Is it possible that he was even on board with the prophecy?

 

Maybe, but it's hard to say. There's so much around that time that we simply don't know about.

 

I suggested a while back that perhaps Rhaegar was trying to start trouble for his father by forcing him to deal with the Starks et al. But then I wondered if I had it backwards, and maybe Rhaegar was trying to show his father that there was a strong political alliance forming in the realm that needed to be dealt with. By kidnapping Lyanna Stark, he forced that alliance to show itself. Perhaps Aerys appreciated that. After all, showing a paranoid person that there is a conspiracy against him is probably a great way to get on his good side.

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I certainly don't mind or really care, but I am not sure what the point is. It is only a few threads, so the length is not really an issue. But if you think it flows better that way -- works for me (as if my opinion really matters).
 
 
Well, IIRC, LV has put forth some suggestions that Aerys knew about the marriage and was OK with it. I am skeptical. But LV's theory certainly would suggest that Aerys was on board with the prophecy thing.
 
I, on the other hand, don't think Rhaegar discussed the prophecy with his father. The prophecy forced Aerys to marry Rhaella, and I think that made Aerys not such a fan of the prophecy.  But I think Aerys loved his son -- and even more important, Aerys would never tolerate someone insulting or attacking a member of the royal family, especially the heir to the throne. But after Harrenhal, I think Aerys was suspicious of his son -- and apparently with good reason. Even at the end, it appears Rhaegar told Jaime that upon returning from the Trident, "things would change" which many people suspect means Rhaegar was going to try to force a regency on his father with Rhaegar calling the shots as the regent holding powers of the King and Aerys treated as mentally incompetent to rule himself -- but that is also just speculation.


Not just protecting rhaegar his heir, Aerys even went farther and asked for the head of Robert.
What wrong did Robert do at that moment except he is lyanna's fiancée? Brandon was threatening rhaegar so Aerys had reason to kill Starks. But not Robert, who is actually also his own nephew, and son of his best friend.
Aerys is indeed trying to remove Robert for the sake of rhaegar, to prevent him claiming lyanna back.

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Not just protecting rhaegar his heir, Aerys even went farther and asked for the head of Robert.
What wrong did Robert do at that moment except he is lyanna's fiancée? Brandon was threatening rhaegar so Aerys had reason to kill Starks. But not Robert, who is actually also his own nephew, and son of his best friend.
Aerys is indeed trying to remove Robert for the sake of rhaegar, to prevent him claiming lyanna back.

 

Robert and Aerys are, I believe, first cousins once removed. Robert is the son of Aerys's first cousin, Steffon Baratheon.

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J. Stargaryen,

 

that is not really the case. Back in 155 AC when Aegon bought Megette his sober uncle, Aegon III, still sat on the Iron Throne, and one assumes that he was neither approving of his behavior nor would he tolerated the shaming of Naerys and House Targaryen if Aegon had made a commoner his second wife. That would have cut Aegon out of the succession in any case - not because of polygamy but because of marrying beneath his station - and we know that Aegon had coveted the Iron Throne since he was a boy. He would never have done such a thing openly - but this doesn't mean he wouldn't like to do it.

 

But the Unworthy is just an example for a Targaryen king not going through with polygamy despite the fact that it seems it might have made sense for him. The other Viserys I who had great trouble fathering children on Aemma Arryn, and only got Rhaenyra from her in ten years of marriage. If polygamy was still an option Viserys could have taken a second wife in the 90s or directly after his ascension to put a stop to Daemon's ambitions. Instead it seems that it became a taboo for the Targaryens to even take a second wife after you are widowed if you already have children. Neither Viserys II nor Maekar I remarry despite the fact that they lose their wives rather early in their lives. One assumes that the Dance was responsible for that.

 

Rhaegar would thus not only have practiced polygamy but also acted against another unwritten Targaryen law.

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Wasn't Aerys Robert's uncle?

Aegon V had five children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle.

 

Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other and had two children, Aerys and Rhaella. 

Meanwhile, Rhaelle married Lord Ormund Baratheon and had one son, Steffon. Steffon married Cassana Estermont, with whom he had Robert, Stannis and Renly.

 

So Aerys and Steffon were first cousins, making Aerys and Robert first cousins once removed, if I'm not mistaking.

 

Edit: spelling error

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Aegon V had five children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle.

 

Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other and had two children, Aerys and Rhaella. 

Meanwhile, Rhaelle married Lord Ormund Baratheon and had one son, Steffon. Steffon married Cassana Estermont, with whom he had Robert, Stannis and Renly.

 

So Aerys and Steffon were first cousins, making Aerys and Robert first cousins once removed, if I'm not mistake.

In my country we say that they are uncle and nephew when Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins, that is why I was confused. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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Rhaegar and prophesy vs. politics and love:

 

I don't think its one or the other, but a mixture of all of them.

I take my clues from the author himself who has said over and over again that the most interesting thing, or most important thing to write about is the notion of "conflicts of the heart."

As I've said, before Dance came out and read Jorahs account of his own tourney, the impulse and motivation to win so he could crown Lynesse, I supsected that was the same driving force behind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and was my first clue that love/desire was one of the primary motivations.

It also goes agains his trying to secretly honor her if he was trying to protect her. I would think he would snatch that shield from her, tell her to lay low and stay out of trouble until the Tourney was over. Outside of context, it puts her in danger with his father as it calls attention to her and insults House Martell as it apparently insulted the Starks.

And are we sure Lyanna herself would want to be the center of attention as it could get her in trouble with her own family, not to mention the salacious gossip that would be associated with her?

 

I think the relationship between Rhaegar and his father was likely closer than we think, and GRRM said that he would flesh out that complicated relationship at some point. I speculate that it was more on the level of  love/hate, with a good dose of denial on Rhaegars part about his father- until well after Harrenhal as according to JC, it was only later that Rhaegar saw that his father had to go.

 

So, while he might have been at Harrenhal for a tentative "meet and greet," was he really ready to commit. Whaever he was planning, I speculate that finding Lyanna tKotLT set him back on his heels, and actually derailed what he might have been qbout, which might have been what he was alluding to when he said to Jaime regarding "roads not taken."

 

 

Other thoughts:

 

I've always wondered about the statement regarding Rhaella trying to protect Viserys from Aerys. Was it because she couldn't protect Rhaegar? Though at that point in Rhaegars life, Aerys was fairly sane, but a jerk. At the time Viserys came, I imagine he was into his decline, however, given that he was so over-protective of Viserys, it might mean, that somewhere along the way, Aerys changed his favor from one son to the other. Rhaegar also changes his mind later about Aegon.

 

Misc.:

 

Speaking of calling a grand councel,  who called the councel that passed over Aerions infant son for fears of madness? Seems a pretty suspicious reason because how can you tell an infant is going to grow to become crazy when that was a fifty-fifty chance of any Targaryen)?

 

 

If Aerions legitimate descendant came back, wouldn't he/she trump any of Aerys line?

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"When King Maekar died in battle in 233 AC, whilst leading his army against a rebellious lord on the Dornish Marches, considerable confusion arose as to the succession. Rather than risk another Dance of the Dragons, the King's Hand, Bloodraven, elected to call a Great Council to decide the matter.

In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King's Landing. With both of Maekar's elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron's sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness. Prince Aegon was the obvious choice, but some lords distrusted him as well, for his wanderings with his hedge knight had left him "half a peasant," according to many. Enough hated him, in fact, that an effort was made to determine whether his elder brother Maester Aemon might be released from his vows, but Aemon refused, and nothing came of it."

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I've always wondered about the statement regarding Rhaella trying to protect Viserys from Aerys. Was it because she couldn't protect Rhaegar? Though at that point in Rhaegars life, Aerys was fairly sane, but a jerk. At the time Viserys came, I imagine he was into his decline, however, given that he was so over-protective of Viserys, it might mean, that somewhere along the way, Aerys changed his favor from one son to the other. Rhaegar also changes his mind later about Aegon.

 

 

You saying Rhaegar might have chosen to disinherit is infant son for fear that he'd be mad like Aerys?

That's kinda sick if you ask me.

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If Aerions legitimate descendant came back, wouldn't he/she trump any of Aerys line?

If Aerys' line still ruled, those lords who despised/disliked the rule of Aerys' line might very well vote for Aerion's descendants in a Great Council, I think. 

 

 

In my country we say that they are uncle and nephew when Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins, that is why I was confused. Sorry for the inconvenience.

What inconvenience? :cheers: 

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Rhaegar and prophesy vs. politics and love:
 
I don't think its one or the other, but a mixture of all of them.
I take my clues from the author himself who has said over and over again that the most interesting thing, or most important thing to write about is the notion of "conflicts of the heart."
As I've said, before Dance came out and read Jorahs account of his own tourney, the impulse and motivation to win so he could crown Lynesse, I supsected that was the same driving force behind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and was my first clue that love/desire was one of the primary motivations.
It also goes agains his trying to secretly honor her if he was trying to protect her. I would think he would snatch that shield from her, tell her to lay low and stay out of trouble until the Tourney was over. Outside of context, it puts her in danger with his father as it calls attention to her and insults House Martell as it apparently insulted the Starks.
And are we sure Lyanna herself would want to be the center of attention as it could get her in trouble with her own family, not to mention the salacious gossip that would be associated with her?
 
I think the relationship between Rhaegar and his father was likely closer than we think, and GRRM said that he would flesh out that complicated relationship at some point. I speculate that it was more on the level of  love/hate, with a good dose of denial on Rhaegars part about his father- until well after Harrenhal as according to JC, it was only later that Rhaegar saw that his father had to go.
 
So, while he might have been at Harrenhal for a tentative "meet and greet," was he really ready to commit. Whaever he was planning, I speculate that finding Lyanna tKotLT set him back on his heels, and actually derailed what he might have been qbout, which might have been what he was alluding to when he said to Jaime regarding "roads not taken."
 
 
Other thoughts:
 
I've always wondered about the statement regarding Rhaella trying to protect Viserys from Aerys. Was it because she couldn't protect Rhaegar? Though at that point in Rhaegars life, Aerys was fairly sane, but a jerk. At the time Viserys came, I imagine he was into his decline, however, given that he was so over-protective of Viserys, it might mean, that somewhere along the way, Aerys changed his favor from one son to the other. Rhaegar also changes his mind later about Aegon.
 
Misc.:
 
Speaking of calling a grand councel,  who called the councel that passed over Aerions infant son for fears of madness? Seems a pretty suspicious reason because how can you tell an infant is going to grow to become crazy when that was a fifty-fifty chance of any Targaryen)?
 
 
If Aerions legitimate descendant came back, wouldn't he/she trump any of Aerys line?


I agree that crowning in HH can only be explained as a reckless, passion-driven and irresponsible move of rhaegar, AKA thinking using his penis in stead of his brain.
It did absolutely nothing useful for anything he may plan to accomplish.
Maybe he was frustrated by his father ruining his plan in HH, then he said: screw it! I spent so much money to do this tourney now everything was ruined and wated. At least I should use it to woo a woman I desire!

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You saying Rhaegar might have chosen to disinherit is infant son for fear that he'd be mad like Aerys?

That's kinda sick if you ask me.


No, just speaking in terms of parallels and how history might repeat itself for different reasons and motivations.

Both Aerys and Rhaegar change their minds about their sons, Viserys vs. Rhaegar/Aegon vs. Jon, but for different reasons.

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No, just speaking in terms of parallels and how history might repeat itself for different reasons and motivations.

Both Aerys and Rhaegar change their minds about their sons, Viserys vs. Rhaegar/Aegon vs. Jon, but for different reasons.

 

I hear ya

 

Is there evidence that Rhaegar actually favored Jon over Aegon though?
 

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