R+L=J v.156

[IceFire125]

But he is not a flawless saint and we do not need to find good excuses or reasons for all of his actions.

 

So from all of your 1768 postings on this forum, you conclude that in this R+L=J v.156, there are people that claimed Rhaegar is a flawless saint?

I don't remember reading others here who are pro R+L=J, claiming that Rhaegar is a flawless saint.  I would like to challenge you and give me those names from this thread, I'd appreciate it.

 

Also, finding rationals/reasons within a character that we know so little about is what we do here, especially if you are a fan of ASOIAF series.  GRRM said to the public, each character and the actions he/she does has a story and purpose.  That he writes characters with the purpose of the heart in conflict against itself.

 

*edit - if this is the narrative we're supposed to believe, purple-eyes and others are 100% correct in their assessment of him

 

Not really.

 

In the narrative, we have several sides to Rhaegar according to accounts in the story.

 

If you and purple-eyes want to believe that he's a 'scumbag' of the story because he led the kingdom into war leading to thousands of deaths, then you are most welcome with that view.  

 

I just don't share that view at all.  I definitely don't share the view that Rhaegar would know that his mad Father wanted to kill a LP and his son and wanting to ask for the heads of Ned and Robert.  But if you want to omit that part in your reasoning to still claim Rhaegar as the ultimate scumbag, ehh it doesn't bother me.

[J. Stargaryen]

The Unworthy:

 

The 'fake wedding' couldn't have been an elaborate practical joke on Megette unless she was retarded. She already had a husband at that point, and this marriage had never been annulled. Both Aegon and Megette would have been bigamists if this had been a real wedding. Thus we would have to assume that Megette either knew that it was (supposed to be) fake or she was actually willing to have two husbands just as Aegon would have two wives. I find the latter option very unlikely.

 

My interpretation was that she probably expressed some reservations about being a mistress, so Aegon "married" her to ease her concerns. If he had a mummer septon perform the wedding, there's no reason to believe that he couldn't have also given her a mummer's annulment from her first husband, if it was necessary. I don't think it would be too hard to convince a common girl that her previous marriage was over when a prince said so. Especially if the marriage supposedly had the blessing of a septon.

 

I could see a scenario in which at least one of them wanted to get married but knew it wasn't allowed, so they went through with a mummer's wedding as a show of love and/or defiance. But given what we know about Aegon's character, I favor other explanations. And, contrary to what you're saying, there's no proof that Aegon actually wanted to marry her.

 

The whole thing seems to have been a big show for all wedding guests - indicating that Aegon and Megette actually wanted to marry but dared not/could not - allowing these two lovers to get the only wedding they could. The obvious danger/potential scandal there lie in the fact that any of the guests could later have claimed it had been a real wedding. How could Aegon 'prove' if he was not married if the 'mummer septon' had died or disappeared by then?

 

Where does it say that? This is what TWoIaF says: “she and Aegon were even “wed” in a secret ceremony conducted by a mummer playing a septon. ” - TWoIaF, Aegon IV. A "secret ceremony" does not sound like a big show for wedding guests to me.

[UnViserion]

In the narrative, we have several sides to Rhaegar according to accounts in the story.

 

If you and purple-eyes wants to believe that he's a 'scumbag' of the story because he led the kingdom into war leading to thousands of deaths, then you are most welcome with that view.  

 

I just don't share that view at all.  I definitely don't share the view that Rhaegar would've known that his mad Father wanted to kill a LP and his son and wanting to ask for the heads of Ned and Robert.  But if you want to omit that part in your reasoning to still claim Rhaegar as the ultimate scumbag, ehh it doesn't bother me.

 

Alright, since we already know you don't think he's responsible for the bloodshed his elopement caused,

 

Do you give Rhaegar credit with the foresight to know that he needed to marry Lyanna and impregnate her with Jon?

 

If so, can't you recognize that you're whitewashing him by doing this? People admit on the one hand that we don't know enough about Rhaegar to condemn him, then proceed to isolate only the best aspects they can while perpetuating a theory that renders his reasoning obsolete in any case. He doesn't get to walk away from his family for another woman without being a bit of a dirtball. He doesn't get to go off on a honeymoon with Lyanna while the rest of the realm fights a war that he had a huge part in starting without being selfish and reckless. He doesn't get to make the judgment call that Lyanna won't be happy with Robert and that he needs to act on his feelings without being self-absorbed. And lastly, he doesn't get to unilaterally decide that shacking up with a Lyanna is justified because of the prophecy without being obsessed.

 

Again, we don't need to uncover new evidence to reach these conclusions. If this is what he did, you have to be making him into a bit of a saint to say "hold your horses, there's not enough evidence to condemn him here." To believe this love & prophecy theory means to believe we know enough to basically establish what his intentions were.. and therefore I say we know enough to judge him accordingly.

[purple-eyes]

So from all of your 1768 postings on this forum, you conclude that in this R+L=J v.156, there are people that claimed Rhaegar is a flawless saint?
I don't remember reading others here who are pro R+L=J, claiming that Rhaegar is a flawless saint.  I would like to challenge you and give me those names from this thread, I'd appreciate it.
 
Also, finding rationals/reasons within a character that we know so little about is what we do here, especially if you are a fan of ASOIAF series.  GRRM said to the public, each character and the actions he/she does has a story and purpose.  That he writes characters with the purpose of the heart in conflict against itself.
 

 
Not really.
 
In the narrative, we have several sides to Rhaegar according to accounts in the story.
 
If you and purple-eyes want to believe that he's a 'scumbag' of the story because he led the kingdom into war leading to thousands of deaths, then you are most welcome with that view.  
 
I just don't share that view at all.  I definitely don't share the view that Rhaegar would know that his mad Father wanted to kill a LP and his son and wanting to ask for the heads of Ned and Robert.  But if you want to omit that part in your reasoning to still claim Rhaegar as the ultimate scumbag, ehh it doesn't bother me.

Honestly after I posted my 1769 posts, I have seen quite a few posters who are trying to give favorable or excusable reasons for all of his actions. Including you.
Most common one is what exactly you are addressing here: he has no idea his mad father would do this, this, or that! He did not have a crystall ball! He has no idea his wife and children will be in danger!
everything has to be blamed on Aerys and Brandon!
How can you blame this on rhaegar! He is not insulting his wife at HH! Elia is from Dorne so she is totally fine to be publicly insulted! Oh, rhaegar is just giving the medal of bravery and honor to lyanna! Whoever think this is about love should be shamed to misunderstand rhaegar's noble purpose! Maybe elia also had some lover! She deserved this! Maybe elia encouraged rhaegar to do this! Who told you queen of love and beauty is about love( come on, it is in the name) ! It can be a honor for a brave knight (try make rhaegar crown JonCon and see what people will say)!
How do you know he did not leave a message to house stark after abduction! Maybe the poor raven was eaten by an eagle! Hold on, it is little finger! Or benjen failed to deliver the message so he felt guilty to join the black!
How dare you say he is hiding and silent? It is so hard for news to travel to TOJ! He only knew the war until hightower found him! (But when they need to prove KG was there for a king, suddenly KG knew everything really quickly)
I can write on and on and on.
Are you feeling familiar with these?
I am. After my 1769 posts.

Maybe you will too. After you finish your 1769 posts.

[UnViserion]

Probably the most remarkable excuse is that since Elia is from Dorne, she'd be open to her husband taking not only another lover, but another queen.

 

I mean cmon.

[J. Stargaryen]

While people certainly find ways to "excuse" Rhaegar's behavior, there are just as many, if not more, who find ways to condemn every one of his actions. In fact, I'm pretty sure the latter is often the reason for the former.

 

Everything we're told about Rhaegar indicates that he's not stupid. Yet kidnapping Lyanna caused the fall of his house. While it's reasonable to assume he wouldn't have predicted that outcome, I have a hard time believing that he didn't realize kidnapping the daughter of a great lord would have political ramifications. Even if you think Rhaegar is a complete idiot, someone in his party, Arthur Dayne perhaps, would have mentioned this to him. Which is why I think there's a good chance that there is a political angle to the kidnapping. Because there's simply no way to separate the politics from the act. Even if there was some other motivation, the political consequences would have been something Rhaegar was at least vaguely aware of.

[purple-eyes]

Probably the most remarkable excuse is that since Elia is from Dorne, she'd be open to her husband taking not only another lover, but another queen.
 
I mean cmon.

Even more, I have seen somebody said: oh, rhaegar is so honorable, he probably already got a permission from the faith to marry a second wife before he left!

[UnViserion]

While people certainly find ways to "excuse" Rhaegar's behavior, there are just as many, if not more, who find ways to condemn every one of his actions. In fact, I'm pretty sure the latter is often the reason for the former.

 

Everything we're told about Rhaegar indicates that he's not stupid. Yet kidnapping Lyanna caused the fall of his house. While it's reasonable to assume he wouldn't have predicted that outcome, I have a hard time believing that he didn't realize kidnapping the daughter of a great lord would have political ramifications. Even if you think Rhaegar is a complete idiot, someone in his party, Arthur Dayne perhaps, would have mentioned this to him. Which is why I think there's a good chance that there is a political angle to the kidnapping. Because there's simply no way to separate the politics from the act. Even if there was some other motivation, the political consequences would have been something Rhaegar was at least vaguely aware of.

 

This is a good post.

 

But I think the reason there are so many who condemn his acts is because the narrative that is put forward, particularly in the R + L = J threads is that this is a some sort of tragic love story, which taints it from the start because he's already married, to a good woman no less. Even worse, his lawful wife is still recovering from her last pregnancy, when she gave him the son he desired (at great peril to her own life). If his actions were predicated upon love for Lyanna (which, again I find crazy regarding how little time they spent together), it's really not that hard to condemn most if not all of his acts as arrogant, stupid and selfish.

 

I've always advocated due process when it comes to Rhaegar, but that's only with respect to the degree that we don't know why he did it. If we already know the 'why,' or enough to piece it together for the most part, then it is fair to judge him IMO.

 

 

My personal belief is that we don't know enough to judge him completely. But again, the theory that is often toted in this thread that they loved eachother and got married has been very heavily investigated. It has merit. But it is still just a theory, and if some of these finer details are so crystal clear, than their accompanying conclusions are valid as well.

[Lord Varys]

The vexing thing about Rhaegar is that no explanation trying to explain his actions people (including myself) come up with do make him look good or intelligent. Emphasis on the 'love story' element make him look politically foolish - you even have to assume he was politically naive or even outright dumb to have him go through with the abduction (let alone a marriage), or else the whole scenario doesn't make any sense. Sure, we don't know the full story, but the outer framework is known, and Rhaegar knows the historical precedent of breaking marriage contracts involving the Baratheons (Prince Duncan) as well as the exact details how the Tullys and Tyrells got back on Aegon V after the Jaehaerys-Shaera match.

 

The assumption that a man as intelligent as Rhaegar is described in the books wouldn't have foreseen that something similar might happen doesn't work. We would have to assume he did not care (which makes him a jerk) or he felt he had no other choice (which is a very weird idea).

 

Enter the 'prophecy element'. That one is clearly there, just as the love element, but having Rhaegar risk a war 'because prophecy demands it' makes him also not look very rational but borderline mad. Unless we assume Rhaegar did only read some ancient scrolls or talked to some albino woods witch but had special insight level of the quality of 'genuine divine revelation' (say, of the sort Moses got from the burning bush or Abraham had when he decided to sacrifice his son) risking to cause a war that could kill thousands of people and ruin get yourself and your family killed is just a completely silly idea.

 

Prophecy has to be interpreted correctly. Rhaegar should have known about the duplicitous and insidious nature of prophecy if he was as learned as our sources paint him. Nobody ever said that the prophecy about the promised prince was an instruction manual for Rhaegar Targaryen to save the world. Which means that it is nowhere established that the promised prince has to have Targaryen blood or be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line to fulfill his destiny (whatever that may be exactly). It is merely prophesied that there will be a promised prince and that he (or she) will be born from that line. If he or she should never show up this doesn't have to mean that the world will end, or that not some other guy could step in to save the day. For all we know the promised prince isn't some Kwisatz Haderach-like superman with some superhuman abilities nobody else but the guy from this eon-spanning breeding program could have. The fact that the savior is supposed to be from Aerys and Rhaella's line doesn't mean that he has to be born from that line because this gives him 'special powers' or some such nonsense. If it turns out that the savior is just going to be some guy who is at the right place at the right time with some good leadership skills than the legitimacy or royalty of his blood won't matter at all - even if he actually has it, as the prophecy foretold. If the savior is this kind of guy then risking the lives of thousands to father him on the right woman is either a symptom of a very irrational behavior (Rhaegar would have been about as mad as Aerys, although on a very different level, suffering from some kind of god complex) or of royal hubris blown up to enormous proportions (everything in the universe revolves around me and my special bloodline).

 

If the prophecy is correct the prophesied savior will come, whether Rhaegar actively tries to fulfill it (or ever reads it) or not. If the prophecy is wrong or if Rhaegar interpreted it wrongly (again), then he was just a fool. Doing the right thing by accident or not preventing a good thing from happening (while accidentally killing a lot of people who would have survived if you had acted differently) doesn't make you great. It makes you, at best, a (lucky) fool.

 

This does not even touch upon Rhaegar and Lyanna's inaction throughout the Rebellion. That is the other glaring question mark that makes both of them look either uncaring/irresponsible or foolish. Especially Lyanna is a complete mystery in all this because there is no scenario imaginable in which a woman like wouldn't try to do something to stop the killing after she learned what was going on. The best way to resolve this, in my opinion, is to go with they had to hide rather than they wanted to/did not care/closed the eyes to the world. Especially in light of the fact that they did apparently not even try to prevent things from escalating or try to end the war peacefully. Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being at KL when Brandon arrived there could have changed everything.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

 

I guess I don't see the love narrative as necessarily contradicting the prophecy or political options. It's possible that one of the latter choices was the initial motivation, and that they fell in love later on.

 

I've always advocated due process when it comes to Rhaegar, but that's only with respect to the degree that we don't know why he did it. If we already know the 'why,' or enough to piece it together for the most part, then it is fair to judge him IMO.

 

That seems fair. Though I think it's understood that we have a severe lack of details on this topic. I mean, we don't even know why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Hell, we don't even know for sure why he crowned her the QoLaB at the HH tourney. Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense to "make excuses" for Rhaegar, since I feel like he must have had a really good reason for doing what he did.

[IceFire125]

Semantics, but I'm of the opinion GRRM have established (to me at least) the thought that to steal is to love...

 

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love

 

Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed.

 

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

 

The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love

 

Ronald Connington had died years before. The present Knight of Griffin’s Roost, his son Ronnet, was said to be off at war in the riverlands. That was for the best. In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

 

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

[purple-eyes]

Semantics, but I'm of the opinion GRRM have established (to me at least) the thought that to steal is to love...

 

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love

 

Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed.

 

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

 

The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love

 

Ronald Connington had died years before. The present Knight of Griffin’s Roost, his son Ronnet, was said to be off at war in the riverlands. That was for the best. In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

 

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

Rhaegar is in love. I got you. Sounds fantastic and romantic.
Then?
Let us say, a guy's fiancée was stolen by another guy, will this guy feel "oh, this must be for love! Stealing sounds romantic! So sweet!" ?
A married man eloped with another man's fiancée and left his wife and two children, will his wife feel " so romantic! He deserved love! How brave this stealing is! "
You really should try to see things in more angles, not only from angle of "sliver prince" or "wild wolf lady".

[purple-eyes]

Semantics, but I'm of the opinion GRRM have established (to me at least) the thought that to steal is to love...

 

Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.

I never meant to steal you, he said. I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.

 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love

 

Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed.

 

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

 

The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love

 

Ronald Connington had died years before. The present Knight of Griffins Roost, his son Ronnet, was said to be off at war in the riverlands. That was for the best. In Jon Conningtons experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things theyd gained by theft.

 

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?

And please do not only put the part you feel useful for you. It is bias.
For example:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera.

So bad I can not make these keywords red for you on my pad. Especially that big and bloody "no" .

[IceFire125]

Rhaegar is in love. I got you. Sounds fantastic and romantic.
Then?
Let us say, a guy's fiancée was stolen by another guy, will this guy feel "oh, this must be for love! Stealing sounds romantic! So sweet!" ?
A married man eloped with another man's fiancée and left his wife and two children, will his wife feel " so romantic! He deserved love! How brave this stealing is! "
You really should try to see things in more angles, not only from angle of "sliver prince" or "wild wolf lady".

 

I'm sorry, I don't try to see things in more angles, but what is being written on text.  I do try to equate within the story universe.  You should try to not compare our reality to the reality of Westeros.  And stop with the over the top of trying to compare actions and feelings in the story with how we define feelings in today's age.  It's really annoying.

 

Elia married for duty to give Rhaegar the kingdom an heir.  She was successful in her duty.

 

Rhaegar from all accounts, was never in love with Elia, he was fond of her.

 

If Rhaegar were to win on the Trident, became king after the Great Council approves of his plan to depose his Father.  Would it surprise you if Rhaegar sleeps with Elia just one night for every ten nights he sleeps with Lyanna, should she survived?  Well it should't.  

[purple-eyes]

I'm sorry, I don't try to see things in more angles, but what is being written on text.  I do try to equate within the story universe.  You should try to not compare our reality to the reality of Westeros.  And stop with the over the top of trying to compare actions and feelings in the story with how we define feelings in today's age.  It's really annoying.
 
Elia married for duty to give Rhaegar an the kingdom and heir.  She was successful in her duty.
 
Rhaegar from all accounts, was never in love with Elia, he was fond of her.
 
If Rhaegar were to win on the Trident, became king after the Great Council approves of his plan to depose his Father.  Would it surprise you if Rhaegar sleeps with Elia just one night for every ten nights he sleeps with Lyanna?  Well it should't.

I said very clearly it is fine for rhaegar to love and marry lyanna if he wants.
I am very ok with polygamy in westeros settings. In history of some countries, including mine, king can take hundreds of wives and all children had right to inherit, no bastard at all. Everybody is trueborn.

The problem is: do not humiliate your first wife publicly and do not do something which leads them to die in the worst way and destroy your house and dynasty. Is this so hard to do?

Did aegon humiliate visenya publicly for rhaenys?
Did aegon run off and hide with rhaenys and stir a war? And this war also caused deaths of thousands and also deaths of visenya and their children?

No and no.

I am not saying rhaegar should love elia, or he should be faithful to elia, but at least do not insult her and leave them in possible chaos.
Sick wife after birth and baby children are vulnerable and need care protection of lord father from the mad king.

[UnViserion]

And please do not only put the part you feel useful for you. It is bias.
For example:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera.

So bad I can not make these keywords red for you on my pad. Especially that big and bloody "no" .

 

You know why it's excluded. It doesn't fit the proposed narrative.

[IceFire125]

And please do not only put the part you feel useful for you. It is bias.
For example:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera.

So bad I can not make these keywords red for you on my pad. Especially that big and bloody "no" .

 

You know why it's excluded. It doesn't fit the proposed narrative.

 

 

LOL! Because it was the Prince who won the tourney and married the Knight of the Laughting Tree???

 

I said very clearly it is fine for rhaegar to love and marry lyanna if he wants.
I am very ok with polygamy in westeros settings. In history of some countries, including mine, king can take hundreds of wives and all children had right to inherit, no bastard at all. Everybody is trueborn.

The problem is: do not humiliate your first wife publicly and do not do something which leads them to die in the worst way and destroy your house and dynasty. Is this so hard to do?

Did aegon humiliate visenya publicly for rhaenys?
Did aegon run off and hide with rhaenys and stir a war? And this war also caused deaths of thousands and also deaths of visenya and their children?

No and no.

 

 

No, because although rare, it was not without precedent.

 

No, Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys conquered 6 kingdoms by killing thousands refusing to bend the knee, and subjugating those within their rule.  Not to mention, their actions led to probably million more deaths through the actions of their descendants.

 

If you really love the Martells, how bout hating on that Daeron I Targaryen, the Young Dragon.  I hear he killed a lot of Dornish and probably more than just that, he even led to more Targaryen loyalist deaths trying to keep power in Dorne compare to the lost Aerys and Rhaegar's loyalist army suffer in RR.

[purple-eyes]

LOL! Because it was the Prince, who won the tourney, that married the Knight of the Laughting Tree???

 

.

Sorry for my straightforwardness,
Is this what you really meant when you quoted that first sentence in your previous post?
Or you quickly and smartly responded after I added that reply of "no" ?
It really sounds like a stretch.

[purple-eyes]

LOL! Because it was the Prince who won the tourney and married the Knight of the Laughting Tree???

 

 
No, because although rare, it was not without precedent.
 
No, Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys conquered 6 kingdoms by killing thousands refusing to bend the knee, and subjugating those within their rule.  Not to mention, their actions led to probably million more deaths through the actions of their descendants.
 
If you really love the Martells, how bout hating on that Daeron I Targaryen, the Young Dragon.  I hear he killed a lot of Dornish and probably more than just that, he even led to more Targaryen loyalist deaths trying to keep power in Dorne compare to the lost Aerys and Rhaegar's loyalist army suffer in RR.

I never said I love or hate martell or Targ.
If wife of rhaegar is lyanna and rhaegar's lover is elia, I will still hold the same view.
Sympathy and justice is not based on family background.
And I am confused why you think I love Martell.

[Alia of the knife]

Right. I got you.
He just did something all husbands wanted to do but most of the time had no guts and power and money to do: dump your old and weak wife and annoying baby children and run off with a young and hot teenager woman who can give you such hot sex that you have to name your new love nest as "tower of joy".
He is so brilliant to find so many excuses for himself, such as having sex with this woman is the only way to save the world. I am just doing it so reluctantly for the greater good! Not for my personal pleasure!
Too lucky that his prophecy did not tell him that his woman of prophecy is somebody like old nan.
If so, will he still run off with her? Or will he say: damn it! This prophecy must be wrong!

I really try to stay away from personalizing things.
Its one thing to betray someone you have chosen of your own free will like we sometimes do today because we are making promises we actually don't have to make, but a political union is something else.

That's not to say one didn't have an obligatiion to be discreet and never have a spouses place questioned.

And wives can cheat too. Who knows, maybe Lyanna like Rhaenys did to Aegon, would have gotten bored with royal life and amused herself elsewhere.
Of course Rhaegar would probably have caught her.