Jump to content

R+L=J v.156


J. Stargaryen

Recommended Posts

No, just speaking in terms of parallels and how history might repeat itself for different reasons and motivations.

Both Aerys and Rhaegar change their minds about their sons, Viserys vs. Rhaegar/Aegon vs. Jon, but for different reasons.


There is almost nothing in the book hinting that rhaegar changed his mind on aegon, except he abandoned baby aegon to cruelty fate with zero KG but left three KG for jon. But not many people agree with this abandoning though.
And even Aerys only named viserys after the death of rhaegar, and we were provided in the world book that this is probably because he blamed death of rhaegar to the treason of dornish lywen and then hated to have a heir with half dornish blood. I had to say this made some sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is almost nothing in the book hinting that rhaegar changed his mind on aegon, except he abandoned baby aegon to cruelty fate with zero KG but left three KG for jon. But not many people agree with this abandoning though.


What an absurd claim. He had no reason to think his father would hurt his children. They were protected by everything remaining in King's Landing, including its walls. The three KG, great as they were, were not even enough to defeat seven people, let alone protect against an actual military. The safety of Lyanna and child was dependant on secrecy, not protection. You could argue that he abandoned them in a sense when he ran off with Lyanna, but protection wise, his wife and children were in a much more protected place. He could not have known Aerys had plans to burn KL down around him, or that Tywin would come and Aerys would open the gates.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an absurd claim. He had no reason to think his father would hurt his children. They were protected by everything remaining in King's Landing, including its walls. The three KG, great as they were, were not even enough to defeat seven people, let alone protect against an actual military. The safety of Lyanna and child was dependant on secrecy, not protection. You could argue that he abandoned them in a sense when he ran off with Lyanna, but protection wise, his wife and children were in a much more protected place. He could not have known Aerys had plans to burn KL down around him, or that Tywin would come and Aerys would open the gates.


You misunderstood me.
I said the only possible hint for rhaegar changed his mind on aegon was that (if you think) rhaegar abandoned aegon and held jon in a much more important position. However, no many people agree with this ( for example, you).
In other words, I do not think rhaegar changed his mind on aegon.
He still thought aegon is the promised prince and jon is the third head of the dragon ( who suppose to assist aegon or even marry aegon)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an absurd claim. He had no reason to think his father would hurt his children. They were protected by everything remaining in King's Landing, including its walls. The three KG, great as they were, were not even enough to defeat seven people, let alone protect against an actual military. The safety of Lyanna and child was dependant on secrecy, not protection. You could argue that he abandoned them in a sense when he ran off with Lyanna, but protection wise, his wife and children were in a much more protected place. He could not have known Aerys had plans to burn KL down around him, or that Tywin would come and Aerys would open the gates.

 

Rhaegar cannot get a pass on not realizing just how insane Aerys had apparently become. Not if we're to believe he acted for love or prophecy.

 

Hell, the guy had already murdered his good brother and father in law at this point (hypothetically).

 

 

The main point here is there is a complete absence of evidence that Rhaegar was favoring Jon over Aegon as his heir. And my oh my the political ramifications of him doing this would be egregious. It's safe to say he'd draw the ire of Dorne.. maybe I'm exaggerating again though.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar and prophesy vs. politics and love:

 

I don't think its one or the other, but a mixture of all of them.

I take my clues from the author himself who has said over and over again that the most interesting thing, or most important thing to write about is the notion of "conflicts of the heart."

As I've said, before Dance came out and read Jorahs account of his own tourney, the impulse and motivation to win so he could crown Lynesse, I supsected that was the same driving force behind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and was my first clue that love/desire was one of the primary motivations.

It also goes agains his trying to secretly honor her if he was trying to protect her. I would think he would snatch that shield from her, tell her to lay low and stay out of trouble until the Tourney was over. Outside of context, it puts her in danger with his father as it calls attention to her and insults House Martell as it apparently insulted the Starks.

And are we sure Lyanna herself would want to be the center of attention as it could get her in trouble with her own family, not to mention the salacious gossip that would be associated with her?

 

I think the relationship between Rhaegar and his father was likely closer than we think, and GRRM said that he would flesh out that complicated relationship at some point. I speculate that it was more on the level of  love/hate, with a good dose of denial on Rhaegars part about his father- until well after Harrenhal as according to JC, it was only later that Rhaegar saw that his father had to go.

 

So, while he might have been at Harrenhal for a tentative "meet and greet," was he really ready to commit. Whaever he was planning, I speculate that finding Lyanna tKotLT set him back on his heels, and actually derailed what he might have been qbout, which might have been what he was alluding to when he said to Jaime regarding "roads not taken."

 

 

Other thoughts:

 

I've always wondered about the statement regarding Rhaella trying to protect Viserys from Aerys. Was it because she couldn't protect Rhaegar? Though at that point in Rhaegars life, Aerys was fairly sane, but a jerk. At the time Viserys came, I imagine he was into his decline, however, given that he was so over-protective of Viserys, it might mean, that somewhere along the way, Aerys changed his favor from one son to the other. Rhaegar also changes his mind later about Aegon.

 

Misc.:

 

Speaking of calling a grand councel,  who called the councel that passed over Aerions infant son for fears of madness? Seems a pretty suspicious reason because how can you tell an infant is going to grow to become crazy when that was a fifty-fifty chance of any Targaryen)?

 

 

If Aerions legitimate descendant came back, wouldn't he/she trump any of Aerys line?

It's hard for me not to include prophecy in the mix for Rhaegar, not just because the author made a point of connecting him to a prophecy, which is the reason he actually existed. Aemon talks about him and prophecy, the books mention it multiple times, it's not going to just vanish. But even outside of that the entire series is loaded with visions and prophecies, there are some 45-50 prophetic visions, dreams, and historical prophecies floating around. And we have seen them at work and we know visions are legit in the series and the flaw generally comes down to the interpretation, "cough" Mel. But she still has actual prophetic visions. It's just such a big part of the series, it's the core of multiple stories like Bran. Jon and Dany get them, for all I know Rhaegar got them, or had dreams.

 

With politics it is very evident that Rhaegar was making moves at the time of Harrenhal.

 

But it's love I struggle with, not that I don't believe it could of happened. But because in the story that is probably the most vague and least evident. It's like if you get to R+L being Jon's parents which I don't think is difficult, at all. Then it's a whole new set of mysteries around the why, where, how, and everyone looks to find reason in the story, some basic logic so it all makes sense. Which is where it also tends to get messy, as everyone seems to want it to make sense for what they want to happen. It's harder for me to find romantic love in this series, then it is to find a prophecy. I mean look at Dany, she fell in love with Drogo, and he was a monster, and none of it changes the fact that she was sold to him or that he raped her. Like that is not a conventional love story, that is a victim excepting where she is, making the best out of her situation, and finding some good in the person she was forced to be with.

 

So when I look at the story around Rhaegar and Lyanna I don't see a lot of conventional love, as it was not a typical situation and there very much seem to be other motivating factors. It's hard for me to go prophecy is not a huge factor when the man is seen holding baby Aegon saying he is the PtwP and saying there must be another and then shortly after that leaving and abducting or running off with Lyanna.

 

On a side note I have a sort of new idea about the Blue Winter rose. Now I have done things on the color of the rose and the aspects of Jack Frost and so on in the past. But I was looking at the properties of the rose and outside of the magical and fantasy aspect of the rose there are some strange things. As you know Jon is heavily associated with this rose along his mother and Rhaegar. And some have talked about the hot springs and ice and fire with the rose. I actually consider it a better example ice and fire then lets say Dragonglass which I don't really tie to ice all that well.

 

So taking the properties of the flower alone and the name, for a flower called a winter rose, outside of the color of frost and the fact we find it in the north it is not very winter like at all. I don't even think it is from the north but rather transplanted. When looking for blue flowers and or plants that have mystical properties we need look no further than the shade of the evening trees in Qarth. The flower likes heat and seems to bloom without problem around hot springs which are generally related to volcanic activity. So when do they bloom? The season of Westeros make this very difficult to figure out. Most roses bloom from spring to first frost. I also except that Martin is no botanist, I mean I got peach trees in deserts near the equator, I got lemon trees in Braavos, you got plants all over the country that could not survive a long summer because they have to have a chill cycle in order for them to go into hibernation.

 

I also am not sure if we have seen how the seasons work in the southern hemisphere. They should be the reverse of the northern hemisphere. Or it could just be about perspective, and identifying where the flower actually comes from.

 

Now right before Yiggy tells Jon about Bael, she gives him a lesson in perspective based on the north and south, and I also use this same theme with Mirri's prophecy in regards to east and west. So using this theme of perspective what might happen to the rose? The author literally introduces this theme right before Bael and the Winter Rose.

 

So we are told in the story of Bael the Bard that it is Winter when he sneaks into Winterfell, not summer or spring, but winter. We are also told the Winter roses had just come into bloom, in the glass gardens, and no flower is so rare or so precious.

 

Now at Harrenhal we get a false Spring, but that's like the Westeros version of an Indian Summer. That is not going to hurt this rose which thrives in heat, but it was in bloom once again during what was actually winter.

 

Taking the given properties of the rose it is not native to the north, and taking the perspective that we are given right before the story, there may be an answer to where this rose comes from. Volcanic activity, it likes heat, it has a blue tint to it like shade trees, yet they say it blooms in winter. But it is only winter if you are in the northern hemisphere, if you are south of equator it is summer. Or at least should be. The glass gardens may also be clue not only do they protect the flower, but where did Jon want to get glass from? Essos, that is where he was going to get glass from, or glass blowers. It was not uncommon back in the day for people to sail all over the world and bring back plants from other countries along with many other things.

 

So the question is have we been south of the equator in Essos? I don't know, but Valyria is pretty far south, and has the Volcanic activity that the rose seems to do well around and the heat it seems to prosper in. But in the case of Valyria the rose would not be a winter Rose but a summer rose.

 

So we are given the properties of heat, volcanic activity, the color blue which we also find on the shade trees of Essos and a sort of mystical property, and a lesson in north and south perspective. It would also mean you have a southern Summer rose perhaps from Valyria that is being kept in the north. Why teach the lesson on north and south perspective right before the story of the Blue rose? Now I can't say this means anything but that rose has some very interesting properties and is clearly not native to the North. It needs not only Volcanic activity but a glass garden to protect it in order for it to bloom during it's natural cycle. Again I know Martin does not have a green thumb, and that is evident in the books, but I am pretty sure he understands all the properties he tied to this rose and the lesson of perspective he gives.

 

Anyway I suggest that the Blue Winter Rose of the North is actually a Valyrian Summer rose which the Starks went through great trouble to keep in the north. Make sense? It's just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
Rhaegar cannot get a pass on not realizing just how insane Aerys had apparently become. Not if we're to believe he acted for love or prophecy.
 
Hell, the guy had already murdered his good brother and father in law at this point (hypothetically).
 
 
The main point here is there is a complete absence of evidence that Rhaegar was favoring Jon over Aegon as his heir. And my oh my the political ramifications of him doing this would be egregious. It's safe to say he'd draw the ire of Dorne.. maybe I'm exaggerating again though.
 

Aerys had no history of harming his own descendants, and all of the examples of people Aerys did harm do not change that. Rhaegar had reason to believe his wife and children were safe in KL. Of all the things to criticise him for, those about a lack of safety of his family in KL doesn't hold up. And Rhaegar wouldn't have known the sex of Lyanna's child. I am not sure where the idea of Rhaegar favoring Jon comes from when Jon wasn't born until around Rhaegar's death. We know from Aemon and Dany's vision that Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP, and so far no indication that ever changed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With politics it is very evident that Rhaegar was making moves at the time of Harrenhal.

 

But it's love I struggle with, not that I don't believe it could of happened. But because in the story that is probably the most vague and least evident. It's like if you get to R+L being Jon's parents which I don't think is difficult, at all. Then it's a whole new set of mysteries around the why, where, how, and everyone looks to find reason in the story, some basic logic so it all makes sense. Which is where it also tends to get messy, as everyone seems to want it to make sense for what they want to happen. It's harder for me to find romantic love in this series, then it is to find a prophecy. I mean look at Dany, she fell in love with Drogo, and he was a monster, and none of it changes the fact that she was sold to him or that he raped her. Like that is not a conventional love story, that is a victim excepting where she is, making the best out of her situation, and finding some good in the person she was forced to be with.

 

So when I look at the story around Rhaegar and Lyanna I don't see a lot of conventional love, as it was not a typical situation and there very much seem to be other motivating factors. It's hard for me to go prophecy is not a huge factor when the man is seen holding baby Aegon saying he is the PtwP and saying there must be another and then shortly after that leaving and abducting or running off with Lyanna.

I struggle with the love aspect as well.

 

Love is the weakest of the 3 possible pillars in Lyanna's abduction. The politics are there, the reference to prophecy is there, having him fall in love with Lyanna after one tournament is very forced.

 

But Rhaegar and Lyanna loving one another is (for some reason) deemed integral to their polygamous marriage so any theories that don't conform are filibustered and disregarded as weak and lacking in sense.

It's actually a great discredit to the entire debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aerys had no history of harming his own descendants, and all of the examples of people Aerys did harm do not change that. Rhaegar had reason to believe his wife and children were safe in KL. Of all the things to criticise him for, those about a lack of safety of his family in KL doesn't hold up. And Rhaegar wouldn't have known the sex of Lyanna's child. I am not sure where the idea of Rhaegar favoring Jon comes from when Jon wasn't born until around Rhaegar's death. We know from Aemon and Dany's vision that Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP, and so far no indication that ever changed.

 

It's still reckless on his part. And it was reckless of him to create a situation where his second wife wouldn't be welcome at court and needed to be protected by almost half the KG forces.. at a time when the crown needed them most. That last part isn't really debatable-- this was the greatest threat the Targaryen dynasty had faced since the first Dance. "well they had walls and stuff.." Nonsense. This was war, a war he helped start and that's where the KG should have been, not safeguarding some woman Rhaegar lusted over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wasn't Aerys Robert's uncle?

 

The way it works is, cousins share the same grandparents. Second cousins share the same great-grandparents, third cousins share the same great-great-grandparents, etc. Cousins are also from the same generation of the family tree. If they're not, that's where once, twice, etc. removed stuff comes in. So, my first cousin's son is my first cousin once removed. If he has a child, that child would be my first cousin twice removed.

 

J. Stargaryen,

 

that is not really the case. Back in 155 AC when Aegon bought Megette his sober uncle, Aegon III, still sat on the Iron Throne, and one assumes that he was neither approving of his behavior nor would he tolerated the shaming of Naerys and House Targaryen if Aegon had made a commoner his second wife. That would have cut Aegon out of the succession in any case - not because of polygamy but because of marrying beneath his station - and we know that Aegon had coveted the Iron Throne since he was a boy. He would never have done such a thing openly - but this doesn't mean he wouldn't like to do it.

 

But the Unworthy is just an example for a Targaryen king not going through with polygamy despite the fact that it seems it might have made sense for him. The other Viserys I who had great trouble fathering children on Aemma Arryn, and only got Rhaenyra from her in ten years of marriage. If polygamy was still an option Viserys could have taken a second wife in the 90s or directly after his ascension to put a stop to Daemon's ambitions. Instead it seems that it became a taboo for the Targaryens to even take a second wife after you are widowed if you already have children. Neither Viserys II nor Maekar I remarry despite the fact that they lose their wives rather early in their lives. One assumes that the Dance was responsible for that.

 

Rhaegar would thus not only have practiced polygamy but also acted against another unwritten Targaryen law.

 

It's not? Because your claim is that a guy's fake wedding ceremony is evidence that he wanted to get married. Think about that for a minute. If I give you a fake phone number, is that evidence that I actually want you to call me? It doesn't seem like it, does it.

 

I don't know if there's any unwritten laws. It seems like you just made that up. However, I agree with the basis of your idea. Whether it's polygamy (Aegon I), remarrying (Viserys I), or legitimizing your bastards (Aegon IV), creating multiple branches of heirs is a recipe for trouble. So I could see why any of those options would become taboo.

 

Aegon V had five children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle.

 

Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other and had two children, Aerys and Rhaella. 

Meanwhile, Rhaelle married Lord Ormund Baratheon and had one son, Steffon. Steffon married Cassana Estermont, with whom he had Robert, Stannis and Renly.

 

So Aerys and Steffon were first cousins, making Aerys and Robert first cousins once removed, if I'm not mistaking.

 

Edit: spelling error

 

That's the way I understand it too. While Aerys and Robert were first cousins once removed, Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins, because they are from the same generation; great-grandchildren of Egg and Betha Blackwood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Aerys and Steffon were first cousins, making Aerys and Robert first cousins once removed, if I'm not mistaking.

 

And making Robert and Rhaegar second cousins. This is what I love about Martin's writing - the realism. I mean, who hasn't had a second cousin they didn't want to beat about the head and chest with a heavy hammer? Really?  :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whether it's polygamy (Aegon I), remarrying (Viserys I), or legitimizing your bastards (Aegon IV), creating multiple branches of heirs is a recipe for trouble. So I could see why any of those options would become taboo.


Exactly, the Targs had good reason to choose to avoid things which could create strong rival Targ claimants after these examples.

There is no indication they ever accepted or agreed to a ban on polygamy. The continued practice of incest, IMO, is evidence that they continued doing what they wanted. Polygamy was unusual in the first place, and there were particular reasons in the couple cases we know of.

Aegon was apparently obligated to marry his eldest sister, but loved and wanted to marry his youngest. In hindsight it was his younger sister wife who perpetuated the Targ dynasty with him (or someone else if rumors are true). Considering the issues Visenya and her eventual son Maegor had producing living children, perhaps Aegon had an inkling about Visenya early on. Perhaps not. As Rhaenys died in 10 AC, Aegon only had one wife for the the remaining twenty-seven years of his reign.

The other example was Maegor, in secret, after about fourteen years of not producing any children with his first wife.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly, the Targs had good reason to choose to avoid things which could create strong rival Targ claimants after these examples.

There is no indication they ever accepted or agreed to a ban on polygamy. The continued practice of incest, IMO, is evidence that they continued doing what they wanted. Polygamy was unusual in the first place, and there were particular reasons in the couple cases we know of.

Aegon was apparently obligated to marry his eldest sister, but loved and wanted to marry his youngest. In hindsight it was his younger sister wife who perpetuated the Targ dynasty with him (or someone else if rumors are true). Considering the issues Visenya and her eventual son Maegor had producing living children, perhaps Aegon had an inkling about Visenya early on. Perhaps not. As Rhaenys died in 10 AC, Aegon only had one wife for the the remaining twenty-seven years of his reign.

The other example was Maegor, in secret, after about fourteen years of not producing any children with his first wife.

 

I apologize for having to respond in 1) 2) 3) format-- my google chrome won't open up and for some reason internet explorer won't let me multi quote

 

1) & 2): That is a fair point in favor of polygamy that no one seems to highlight (not entirely sure if you really are). After the Tragedy of Summerhall, the Targaryen dynasty was at an incredibly weak point. The threat of rival claimants was pretty non-existant. They could have used more heirs, and being as Rhaegar was the only viable option to (as Tywin put it in the show to Cersei) marry and breed, exploring having him take another bride to further the line in the interim would be logical. 

Sidebar: but running off with Lyanna when she was betrothed to another great house, unilaterally, without the consent (as far as we know) of her father, was absolutely the wrong way to do it. Sheer Tom-foolery, doesn't protect him from criticism or the enormous blame he shoulders.

 

3) I don't think Aegon had any inkling that Visenya and Maegor would have problems producing heirs. I recognize you put it in perhaps/perhaps not format, and the main point of my post was to talk about polygamy, but I doubt this very much.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I apologize for having to respond in 1) 2) 3) format-- my google chrome won't open up and for some reason internet explorer won't let me multi quote

 

1) & 2): That is a fair point in favor of polygamy that no one seems to highlight (not entirely sure if you really are). After the Tragedy of Summerhall, the Targaryen dynasty was at an incredibly weak point. The threat of rival claimants was pretty non-existant. They could have used more heirs, and being as Rhaegar was the only viable option to (as Tywin put it in the show to Cersei) marry and breed, exploring having him take another bride to further the line in the interim would be logical.

 

I've made this exact same argument. It could be especially relevant if you believe in the southron ambitions conspiracy. In a numbers game, the Targaryens weren't going to be able to keep up with southron ambitions alliance by traditional means. But a wildcard that could help to even things up a bit would be the reintroduction of polygamy. This idea is doubly powerful as a weapon in this fight if one of Rhaegar's brides is a daughter from one of those four great houses. Steal one from their side, and add it to yours.

 

Sidebar: but running off with Lyanna when she was betrothed to another great house, unilaterally, without the consent (as far as we know) of her father, was absolutely the wrong way to do it. Sheer Tom-foolery, doesn't protect him from criticism or the enormous blame he shoulders.

 

Maybe. But imagine for a second that what I've speculated above was true. It really could have been a political masterstroke by Rhaegar to abduct and marry Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Unworthy's example shows that he wanted to marry Megette. If I threw a wedding the impression you get is that you want to married, right? If there is a wedding, then two people wed. Regardless whether this whole stands in front of the law or the church. Aegon may very well have considered himself to be married to Meg but may have chosen the mummer approach to get out of it should the whole thing eventually backfire on him - which it did, eventually.

 

The Targaryens did not have to outlaw polygamy. It was illegal already in Westeros at the time of the Conquest, forbidden by the scriptures of the Faith. Maegor himself acknowledges that. Aegon and Maegor sort of got away with it, but even Maegor didn't try to rewrite or change the holy scriptures of the Faith, he just proclaimed that they didn't apply to the blood of the dragon - which is, of course, open to interpretation. In that sense a polygamous marriage conducted without royal permission or dispense granted by the High Septon would, in Rhaegar's case, not be accepted. The rite does not matter since the High Septon back in Aenys' days didn't care that Queen Visenya had officiated at the wedding - he denounced the marriage as 'sin and fornication' anyway. That means he could have done so, too, if Rhaegar and Lyanna had married in front of a tree. The point is not the marriage rites but the fact that there is a polygamous marriage.

 

Not to mention that the Targaryens are following the new gods, not the old gods. The Faith holds sway in most of the lands the Targaryens rule, and so they have to follow and caper to the Faith, too, even if they are atheists or skeptics (which most likely mos to earlier and smarter Targaryens were). Openly showing favor of the old gods could have caused a different sort of trouble for Rhaegar - people not being willing to be ruled by this heretic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Maybe. But imagine for a second that what I've speculated above was true. It really could have been a political masterstroke by Rhaegar to abduct and marry Lyanna.

 

Possibly, but if that's the case he underestimated the possible ramifications of his actions pretty badly.

 

An interesting political maneuver to say the least.  
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Unworthy's example shows that he wanted to marry Megette. If I threw a wedding the impression you get is that you want to married, right? If there is a wedding, then two people wed. Regardless whether this whole stands in front of the law or the church. Aegon may very well have considered himself to be married to Meg but may have chosen the mummer approach to get out of it should the whole thing eventually backfire on him - which it did, eventually.

 

No it doesn't. I mean, how in the hell does a guy staging a fake wedding show that he wants to be married for real? If your argument was that Aegon wanted to play at being married, I might agree. But it's equally realistic to assume that he willfully and maliciously tricked Meg into believing they were married for his own ends. Not necessarily because he didn't really love her in his own way, but because he was a selfish jerk.

 

Also, this argument that Aegon IV, with his many mistresses, should've taken one to wife if polygamy were possible forgets that he's a fictional character with his own narrative purpose. Namely, he's the guy who created multiple branches of heirs by legitimizing his bastards. In other words, he's not the guy who had multiple branches of legitimate heirs by way of taking an extra wife or two. That's not his narrative purpose. Someone else already has that covered. Nor is he the guy who remarried, thereby creating an extra branch of legitimate heirs. Again, someone else already has that covered.

 

---

 

I suppose it's worth mentioning that the examples of Aegon I, Viserys I, and Aegon IV could have led Rhaegar to believe that, even though he needed an extra child, that child would have to born a bastard and remain that way. That means, no polygamy, no legitimization, no setting Elia aside and marrying Lyanna. I don't believe that, but I just thought I'd mention it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...