R+L=J v.156

[UnViserion]

I never said I love or hate martell or Targ.
If wife of rhaegar is lyanna and rhaegar's lover is elia, I will still hold the same view.
Sympathy and justice is not based on family background.
And I am confused why you think I love Martell.

 

I wouldn't respond to that strawman argument ish if I were you purple-eyes
 

[purple-eyes]

I really try to stay away from personalizing things.
Its one thing to betray someone you have chosen of your own free will like we sometimes do today because we are making promises we actually don't have to make, but a political union is something else.
That's not to say one didn't have an obligatiion to be discreet and never have a spouses place questioned.
And wives can cheat too. Who knows, maybe Lyanna like Rhaenys did to Aegon, would have gotten bored with royal life and amused herself elsewhere.
Of course Rhaegar would probably have caught her.

This may be a little bit off topic.
But since we all agree rhaegar does not love elia, he can always refuse to enter this political loveless marriage like Dunk the small by giving up his claim to the throne, or like blackfish, or like jaehaerys and sharra and daeron. Nobody put a sword on his throat to marry elia. Or he can at least reject to have sex with elia like Aerys I if he thinks this is not acceptable. Then he can keep himself available until he meets his true love lyanna.
He entered this marriage by his own will for the trust of his king father and Dorne, aka his duty.
Political marriage is not a good reason for him to ruin everything for "true love".

[purple-eyes]

I wouldn't respond to that strawman argument ish if I were you purple-eyes

:)

[Alia of the knife]

 
As far as discussion goes, this is about as useful as "take it up with GRRM." It sounds more like you coming to a conclusion that you like and saying it fits the overall narrative because, well, you like it.  I've read the books too and have come to an entirely different conclusion than you have. It is somewhat consistent in terms of the love vs duty theme, but it is very inconsistent with respect to the intricate, complex plots we've seen in other areas of the story. And we're intentionally left in the dark about it, allowing us to formulate our own thoughts and rush to other judgments.
 
This 'love' story between Rhaegar and Lyanna seems forced and weak to me. Would not surprise me if it was a red herring.
 
edit- way too many spaces at the end of this. sorry.

And I come to the conclusion based upon references that the author has made.

We all have different opinions and I could be wrong, but I think GRRM might be saying is that even a good man can do bad things and be selfish the same way a bad man can have his moment of redemption.
There are no black and white characters.

The story of Lyannas rape is the red herring, and finding out that Rhaegar is Jon's father and actually loved her will come as a great shock to the casual reader.
Obviously we are not casual readers, so we are sometimes looking for plots within plots.
GRRM said himself we think too much about this stuff.

And I'm actually indifferent to themes of love and not a romantic, but yet Rhaegar naming the tower where he kept Lyanna, the Tower of Joy seems like a pretty big clue that he wasn't indifferent to Lyanna.

Denying the romantic angle actually seems to be more a matter of personally disliking that factor because for whatever reason, there is a personal bias against it.

And of course I'm going to listen to the author and take my lead from him and then see if what HE says or has said is consistent with various theories about the text.

[purple-eyes]

And I come to the conclusion based upon references that the author has made.
We all have different opinions and I could be wrong, but I think GRRM might be saying is that even a good man can do bad things and be selfish the same way a bad man can have his moment of redemption.
There are no black and white characters.
The story of Lyannas rape is the red herring, and finding out that Rhaegar is Jon's father and actually loved her will come as a great shock to the casual reader.
Obviously we are not casual readers, so we are sometimes looking for plots within plots.
GRRM said himself we think too much about this stuff.
And I'm actually indifferent to themes of love and not a romantic, but yet Rhaegar naming the tower where he kept Lyanna, the Tower of Joy seems like a pretty big clue that he wasn't indifferent to Lyanna.
Denying the romantic angle actually seems to be more a matter of personally disliking that factor because for whatever reason, there is a personal bias against it.
And of course I'm going to listen to the author and take my lead from him and then see if what HE says or has said is consistent with various theories about the text.

Barri already said clearly to us: he loved his lady lyanna and thousands of people died for it.
Elder brother also said: fight for the woman both claimed to love.
I think this is not a secret even in the book.

[Alia of the knife]

The vexing thing about Rhaegar is that no explanation trying to explain his actions people (including myself) come up with do make him look good or intelligent. Emphasis on the 'love story' element make him look politically foolish - you even have to assume he was politically naive or even outright dumb to have him go through with the abduction (let alone a marriage), or else the whole scenario doesn't make any sense. Sure, we don't know the full story, but the outer framework is known, and Rhaegar knows the historical precedent of breaking marriage contracts involving the Baratheons (Prince Duncan) as well as the exact details how the Tullys and Tyrells got back on Aegon V after the Jaehaerys-Shaera match.
 
The assumption that a man as intelligent as Rhaegar is described in the books wouldn't have foreseen that something similar might happen doesn't work. We would have to assume he did not care (which makes him a jerk) or he felt he had no other choice (which is a very weird idea).
 
Enter the 'prophecy element'. That one is clearly there, just as the love element, but having Rhaegar risk a war 'because prophecy demands it' makes him also not look very rational but borderline mad. Unless we assume Rhaegar did only read some ancient scrolls or talked to some albino woods witch but had special insight level of the quality of 'genuine divine revelation' (say, of the sort Moses got from the burning bush or Abraham had when he decided to sacrifice his son) risking to cause a war that could kill thousands of people and ruin get yourself and your family killed is just a completely silly idea.
 
Prophecy has to be interpreted correctly. Rhaegar should have known about the duplicitous and insidious nature of prophecy if he was as learned as our sources paint him. Nobody ever said that the prophecy about the promised prince was an instruction manual for Rhaegar Targaryen to save the world. Which means that it is nowhere established that the promised prince has to have Targaryen blood or be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line to fulfill his destiny (whatever that may be exactly). It is merely prophesied that there will be a promised prince and that he (or she) will be born from that line. If he or she should never show up this doesn't have to mean that the world will end, or that not some other guy could step in to save the day. For all we know the promised prince isn't some Kwisatz Haderach-like superman with some superhuman abilities nobody else but the guy from this eon-spanning breeding program could have. The fact that the savior is supposed to be from Aerys and Rhaella's line doesn't mean that he has to be born from that line because this gives him 'special powers' or some such nonsense. If it turns out that the savior is just going to be some guy who is at the right place at the right time with some good leadership skills than the legitimacy or royalty of his blood won't matter at all - even if he actually has it, as the prophecy foretold. If the savior is this kind of guy then risking the lives of thousands to father him on the right woman is either a symptom of a very irrational behavior (Rhaegar would have been about as mad as Aerys, although on a very different level, suffering from some kind of god complex) or of royal hubris blown up to enormous proportions (everything in the universe revolves around me and my special bloodline).
 
If the prophecy is correct the prophesied savior will come, whether Rhaegar actively tries to fulfill it (or ever reads it) or not. If the prophecy is wrong or if Rhaegar interpreted it wrongly (again), then he was just a fool. Doing the right thing by accident or not preventing a good thing from happening (while accidentally killing a lot of people who would have survived if you had acted differently) doesn't make you great. It makes you, at best, a (lucky) fool.
 
This does not even touch upon Rhaegar and Lyanna's inaction throughout the Rebellion. That is the other glaring question mark that makes both of them look either uncaring/irresponsible or foolish. Especially Lyanna is a complete mystery in all this because there is no scenario imaginable in which a woman like wouldn't try to do something to stop the killing after she learned what was going on. The best way to resolve this, in my opinion, is to go with they had to hide rather than they wanted to/did not care/closed the eyes to the world. Especially in light of the fact that they did apparently not even try to prevent things from escalating or try to end the war peacefully. Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being at KL when Brandon arrived there could have changed everything.

And we do know the "Kwasitz Haderach" was an accident rather than careful genetic engineering and unexpected. :)

[UnViserion]

I don't see how the Lyanna rape theory (which I don't believe) is any more prominent then the love theory among the characters who speak of the issue

[Alia of the knife]

Because I think only Selmy knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna when everyone else just speaks of her as being the brood mare for the spare to the heir.
Everyone else thinks they could have changed it all had their girl been Rhaegars wife rather than Elia when its likely Rhaegar would have still chosen Lyanna.
Elia was just a scapegoat for Rhaegars weakness.

[purple-eyes]

Because I think only Selmy knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna when everyone else just speaks of her as being the brood mare for the spare to the heir.
Everyone else thinks they could have changed it all had their girl been Rhaegars wife rather than Elia when its likely Rhaegar would have still chosen Lyanna.
Elia was just a scapegoat for Rhaegars weakness.

I did not quite get your point but may be this is due to my poor English.
But nobody thought lyanna as a baby maker in the book because they do not even know she had a child.
It looks like everybody agreed that rhaegar was not satisfied with elia so he turned to lyanna.
Then people like Kevan or viserys said: if our girls were there, rhaegar would choose our girls instead of lyanna because our girls are much more worthy for rhaegar than lyanna.
Nobody blamed rhaegar, only blamed his women.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Because I think only Selmy knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna when everyone else just speaks of her as being the brood mare for the spare to the heir.
Everyone else thinks they could have changed it all had their girl been Rhaegars wife rather than Elia when its likely Rhaegar would have still chosen Lyanna.
Elia was just a scapegoat for Rhaegars weakness.

 

That's an interesting conclusion to make though seeing as Barristan got every other example he compared it to wrong

 

 

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

- Dany doesn't really love Daario, she's just infatuated with him and trying to replace Drogo who she does loves.

- Daemon Blackfyre rebelled 8 years after Daenerys married Maron Martell, so he didn't rebel when he was denied her (he even attended their wedding)

- Bittersteel and Bloodraven caused the Seven Kingdoms to bleed because they were fighting for their respective sides right to rule, not over Shiera Seastar.

- Duncan not only never cast aside a crown for Jenny (seeing as he was only the heir and not a king he never possessed a crown), but Duncan only "cast aside the crown" AFTER Lyonel's rebellion had been defeated. The corpses were created prior to Duncan ever giving up his inheritance as he only gave up his right to the IT as one of the terms Lyonel demanded. Plus, we don't actually know of anybody who died because of Duncan falling for Jenny as Lyonel really declared independence, he didn't rebel and we know of no battles save Dunk vs Lyonel which ended with Dunk sparing Lyonel's life.

- All three sons of Aegon V didn't marry for love seeing as Daeron was gay and couldn't marry his lover

- Aegon V didn't follow his heart when he chose his queen as he married Betha Blackwood over a decade before he was ever king, and at a time when there was barely any chance that he ever would become king

- Aegon V didn't allow his sons to have their way short of allowing Daeron to not marry Olenna Redwyne. He forced Duncan to give up all his inheritance and claims to the throne to marry Jenny after Lyonel and he both agreed to that term to put down Lyonel's rebellion, and Jaehaerys married Shaera without his consent and then Aegon didn't know how he could repair the damage done by their consummated legal marriage. Aegon never intended for any of his sons to marry for love, and always intended to have them marry for political alliances.

 

So the chances that Barristan actually got what he was talking about right with Rhaegar and Lyanna would be odd to say the least. He got everything else wrong so there's likely something wrong with his declaration about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Lord Varys]

Dany is very much in love with Daario. Clearly as much as she was in love with Drogo - especially since that may have been only the Stockholm syndrome and good sex, not exactly a mature relationship among equals.

 

Barristan is no historian. He may believe the stories about Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys being part of the cause of the Rebellion. That's a much better reason for the singers making stories about it afterwards than 'lust for power' or 'Daemon being manipulated into it'.

 

Shiera Seastar's role in the Bittersteel/Bloodraven rivalry shouldn't be downplayed. I assume this was a very important factor there, and there is most likely a reason why Yandel didn't talk much about her in the book - because she is going to feature rather heavily in the series itself.

 

Lyonel had nothing to do with Duncan abdicating, that was the High Septon and Aegon's court. Jenny did cause the Baratheon rebellion, though, and there was a war prior to the trial-by-combat.

 

Ran/Linda have told us that there was either some sort of a 'gay wedding' for Prince Daeron and his lover, or Barristan thinks they were married in their hearts.

 

Aegon V allowed their sons to have their ways because they were in love with the people they choose. He could have forced Daeron to marry Olenna, and he could have unmade both Duncan's and Jaehaerys/Shaera's marriage. Jenny could easily have been treated the Tysha way, and Jaehaerys-Shaera could easily have been formally annulled despite the fact that the match had been consummated. Kings can do that - Prince Daemon and Rhea Royce also consummated their marriage, yet Prince Daemon still thought the marriage could be set aside.

 

Aegon V loved his children well, and apparently took their actions as a sign that they were truly willing to be with the people they chose. Just as he might have been forced to do to marry Betha. Remember, Egg was betrothed to his sister Daella, and there may have been considerable pressure from Maekar and Aerys I to do through with the match and it is by no means certain that Egg had long dissolved the betrothal when he married Betha. 

[Alia of the knife]

 

That's an interesting conclusion to make though seeing as Barristan got every other example he compared it to wrong

 

 

- Dany doesn't really love Daario, she's just infatuated with him and trying to replace Drogo who she does loves.

- Daemon Blackfyre rebelled 8 years after Daenerys married Maron Martell, so he didn't rebel when he was denied her (he even attended their wedding)

- Bittersteel and Bloodraven caused the Seven Kingdoms to bleed because they were fighting for their respective sides right to rule, not over Shiera Seastar.

- Duncan not only never cast aside a crown for Jenny (seeing as he was only the heir and not a king he never possessed a crown), but Duncan only "cast aside the crown" AFTER Lyonel's rebellion had been defeated. The corpses were created prior to Duncan ever giving up his inheritance as he only gave up his right to the IT as one of the terms Lyonel demanded. Plus, we don't actually know of anybody who died because of Duncan falling for Jenny as Lyonel really declared independence, he didn't rebel and we know of no battles save Dunk vs Lyonel which ended with Dunk sparing Lyonel's life.

- All three sons of Aegon V didn't marry for love seeing as Daeron was gay and couldn't marry his lover

- Aegon V didn't follow his heart when he chose his queen as he married Betha Blackwood over a decade before he was ever king, and at a time when there was barely any chance that he ever would become king

- Aegon V didn't allow his sons to have their way short of allowing Daeron to not marry Olenna Redwyne. He forced Duncan to give up all his inheritance and claims to the throne to marry Jenny after Lyonel and he both agreed to that term to put down Lyonel's rebellion, and Jaehaerys married Shaera without his consent and then Aegon didn't know how he could repair the damage done by their consummated legal marriage. Aegon never intended for any of his sons to marry for love, and always intended to have them marry for political alliances.

 

So the chances that Barristan actually got what he was talking about right with Rhaegar and Lyanna would be odd to say the least. He got everything else wrong so there's likely something wrong with his declaration about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

(Sigh), Poor Selmy must “know nothing” more than Jon Snow.

 

There is certainly no doubt that these men and circumstances are not going to be cut and dry, nor from a more cynical viewpoint, that there would not be the loss of power with the loss of some of these women. In those days women were as much possessions as the lands and wealth they brought with them with the latter actually being more justified for going to war.

 

And wanting a womans possessions as much as wanting a woman wasn’t mutually exclusive when it came to loving a woman.

 

William the Conqueror wanted Matilda of Flanders for what she brought with her, but there can be no doubt he also loved his little queen.

 

And while all of these back storys and companion pieces help to create a back drop, the text itself is always going to be canon.

However, if you didn’t notice, Selmy isn’t remembering these events with any sort of glowing romanticism or positive light. He is remembering those events, (which all the details you just mentioned would be recorded not only in history, but also the KG little white book so Selmy would know a great deal), with trepidation and apprehension because he isn’t sure yet what Dany will do, which is one reason why he hopes that Daario is dead.

 

As far as the other examples, well, I don’t see the point of Daemon rising in rebellion over a woman, when really, that was the last reason to go to war. No one is going to put themselves on the line for some high lord or Great Bastards broken heart.

 

They will put themselves on the line for power, land and money and were fine to say so, unlike today where ambition is akin to greed.

 

I imagine when Aegon did become king, there might have been some proposition to put Betha aside for a more powerful alliance and Aegon chose NOT to do so.

His House offended other great Houses by likely breaking betrothals in order for those children to follow their heart, therefore Aegons House made enemies where he might have had allies and friends.

Gay or not, Daeron would have still needed to marry for alliance as would Loras if he had been heir, and as Renly did. It was an extraordinary act that he was not compelled to do so.

 

My guess is not only is Selmy in the know on Aerys House, I think he actually knows what others do not, which are the real details of the examples you mentioned, because again, men went to war for land, wealth, power and pride, and were open about those facts.

 

Bounty, booty, wealth, land and glory.

 

It would be madness to openly declare you are going to war, or anger powerful allies because you want a woman.

 

Love as the reason is a tale that singers like to tell not just because it makes a good song for pretty girls, but it’s also a window into the real reasons, the petty world of high lords and kings who play the GOT, and the men who die because they do.

[Mithras]

 

That's an interesting conclusion to make though seeing as Barristan got every other example he compared it to wrong

 

 

- Dany doesn't really love Daario, she's just infatuated with him and trying to replace Drogo who she does loves.

- Daemon Blackfyre rebelled 8 years after Daenerys married Maron Martell, so he didn't rebel when he was denied her (he even attended their wedding)

- Bittersteel and Bloodraven caused the Seven Kingdoms to bleed because they were fighting for their respective sides right to rule, not over Shiera Seastar.

- Duncan not only never cast aside a crown for Jenny (seeing as he was only the heir and not a king he never possessed a crown), but Duncan only "cast aside the crown" AFTER Lyonel's rebellion had been defeated. The corpses were created prior to Duncan ever giving up his inheritance as he only gave up his right to the IT as one of the terms Lyonel demanded. Plus, we don't actually know of anybody who died because of Duncan falling for Jenny as Lyonel really declared independence, he didn't rebel and we know of no battles save Dunk vs Lyonel which ended with Dunk sparing Lyonel's life.

- All three sons of Aegon V didn't marry for love seeing as Daeron was gay and couldn't marry his lover

- Aegon V didn't follow his heart when he chose his queen as he married Betha Blackwood over a decade before he was ever king, and at a time when there was barely any chance that he ever would become king

- Aegon V didn't allow his sons to have their way short of allowing Daeron to not marry Olenna Redwyne. He forced Duncan to give up all his inheritance and claims to the throne to marry Jenny after Lyonel and he both agreed to that term to put down Lyonel's rebellion, and Jaehaerys married Shaera without his consent and then Aegon didn't know how he could repair the damage done by their consummated legal marriage. Aegon never intended for any of his sons to marry for love, and always intended to have them marry for political alliances.

 

So the chances that Barristan actually got what he was talking about right with Rhaegar and Lyanna would be odd to say the least. He got everything else wrong so there's likely something wrong with his declaration about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

You summed up perfectly why I hate Barristan and why I hope Victarion's axe to split his dumb head into two.

 

You can also add his BS about Aerys and Joanna into this pot.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Barristan actually met Aegon V, Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys II, Queen Shaera, and Prince Daeron personally. His memories are much more credible than anything Yandel is writing, especially on the hidden motivational layers of the royal family. His knowledge about Jaehaerys-Shaera could come directly from the king himself, not the secondary and tertiary sources Yandel would be drawing from.

 

Not liking characters because they know stuff and don't agree with you is childish and stupid.

 

Back to Rhaegar:

 

The whole Lyanna thing also becomes a distasteful and unpleasant affair if you stress the prophecy angle too much. Lyanna then becomes just a brood mare to make the savior or one of the savior's companions/the third dragon head. In my book it is rather sick to (mainly) enter into a sexual relationship because prophecy demands it. Rhaegar would be using and exploiting Lyanna's genuine feelings for him - if she had any - to some degree. Such a behavior would make him a very unsympathetic character by definition.

It wouldn't be a real love story, it would be that love is part of another bigger story, and perhaps even only the means to an end.

 

But then, even if he was deeply in love with her and prophecy only played a little role in there (it played some role, that has been already established) he still behaves like an ass by deflowering and soiling her, making her his whore (even if he married her, she would just be his second wife, the one he took for lust, a person to be looked down upon as 'the (future) queen who should never have been'). And, of course, he also publicly humiliated Elia in the process, regardless whether she was in on the whole plan and completely okay with being set aside in favor of a new and fertile wife. Elia of Dorne would have been effectively discarded, and could never play the role she was entitled to as the wife of the Prince of Dragonstone - that is becoming the sole Queen of Westeros by the time her husband ascended the Iron Throne.

[Rippounet]

You summed up perfectly why I hate Barristan and why I hope Victarion's axe to split his dumb head into two.

Good ol' Barry is a hopeless romantic...

 

The troubling thing about the Rhaegar-Lyanna love story is that it is not supported by anything incontrovertible in the text. That Rhaegar abudcted Lyanna for love is just one version/interpretation of the events ; but the text remains ambiguous at every single point.

But the ap', by saying the woman's name Rhaegar had on his lips when he died was Lyanna's, throws all this ambiguity away. It's troubling (why would the ap' spoil this plot point?) and annoying.

So apparently, we can only conclude that Rhaegar did eventually fall in love with Lyanna, but the text doesn't allow us to know when that happened.

 

I personally doubt he fell in love before abducting her. Or perhaps I should say I would be very disapointed if such a central mystery turned out to be based on something like Barry's silly romanticism. But hey, George knows what he's doing anyway.

 

[Mithras]

Well, Barristan actually met Aegon V, Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys II, Queen Shaera, and Prince Daeron personally. His memories are much more credible than anything Yandel is writing, especially on the hidden motivational layers of the royal family. His knowledge about Jaehaerys-Shaera could come directly from the king himself, not the secondary and tertiary sources Yandel would be drawing from.

 

Not liking characters because they know stuff and don't agree with you is childish and stupid.

 

Who cares about his memories if there many reasons to doubt their accuracy?

[Mithras]

Good ol' Barry is a hopeless romantic...

 

The troubling thing about the Rhaegar-Lyanna love story is that it is not supported by anything incontrovertible in the text. That Rhaegar abudcted Lyanna for love is just one version/interpretation of the events ; but the text remains ambiguous at every single point.

But the ap', by saying the woman's name Rhaegar had on his lips when he died was Lyanna's, throws all this ambiguity away. It's troubling (why would the ap' spoil this plot point?) and annoying.

So apparently, we can only conclude that Rhaegar did eventually fall in love with Lyanna, but the text doesn't allow us to know when that happened.

 

I personally doubt he fell in love before abducting her. Or perhaps I should say I would be very disapointed if such a central mystery turned out to be based on something like Barry's silly romanticism. But hey, George knows what he's doing anyway.

 

The only thing that matters is that Jon should learn what exactly happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is his business. So, whatever Barristan knows or thinks he knows between R and L, there is almost zero possibility that his memories will find their way to Jon. I think Jon will learn R+L=J in his crypt dream which should not take long in TWoW. He has to wake up with this knowledge. This is a classical visit to underworld in hero's journey which Jon clearly follows. I doubt George can withold this information any longer.

[Lord Varys]

There are no reasons to doubt the accuracy of Barristan's memories.

[Han Snow]

Would George use his actual fathers name as an inspiration for Rhaegar's if Rhaegar is suppose to be an evil, deranged rapist obsessed with prophecies?!

 

 

No he would not.

 

 

 

Thank you and good night.

 

 

p.s.

 

Jesus, without the next book this forum is becoming a cesspool of idiotic ideas. People, try to remember that we are not discussing actual history. Nope, we are prying into a man's mind. Some stuff will not make sense, timelines will be diluted and so on.

 

Now, for real:

 

Thank you and good night.

[Mithras]

There are no reasons to doubt the accuracy of Barristan's memories.

 

Think so?

 

February 12, 2001

SOME CONTINUITY ODDITIES

[Note: The first part of this entry is an excerpt from a mail in response to a note that there seems to be a continuity error in SoS, concerning the date of the death of the outlaw Simon Toyne and Rhaegar's defeat of him at the tourney at Storm's End, as reported by Ser Barristan early in the book and as recorded in The White Book.]

Ooops. Good catch...

As to this glitch... I think my defense in that the account in The White Book is correct. Ser Barristan is an old man, after all, recounting things that happened in his youth. You ought to see me and my friends sitting around at a con:

ME: Hey, remember Torcon 2, when Joe Haldeman found two naked girls in a bathtub of grape jello. Alice and Angela, wasn't it?

SOMEONE ELSE: It was lime jello, you idiot, and it was Big Mac, not Torcon. Three were three girls -- Betty, Veronica, and Lee.

JOE: Lime jello, two girls, it was Applesusan and Avedon, and it was Discon.

In other words, Ser Barristan is undoubtingly conflating events that happened at two or three different tourneys. Any way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.