From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[LmL]

Sorry to be so far behind on the thread, but time only allows for so much...
 
Let's step back from this a minute. Yes, the sword is covered in blood, but whose blood is it? It's Ned's blood. And what is Ned's blood symbolic of, if not self-sacrifice? Ned may not have realized that the price would be his life, but he proved more than willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of his family and more specifically Sansa. The blood of self-sacrifice, yet the sword still burns red. 
 
But, if we look at the tale as told, Nissa Nissa sacrificed herself willingly to temper the sword. Same thing with Beric. He uses his own blood to coat his sword, not the blood of another. Sounds like more examples of self-sacrifice to me. In both cases the sword burns red.
 
I find it hard to equate the red sword to death. Who in this series is equated more with death than the Others, and yet their swords burn a cold blue, just like their blood. To me, it seems that red just might be the color of self-sacrifice. In reality, Jon was responsible for neither Ygritte's or Robb's death, yet he holds himself accountable. He had to sacrifice their safety, along with his own desires to be true to his duty. In effect, they are the victims of his own self-sacrifice in his eyes. 
 
Unless, of course, it continues to be the blood of self-sacrifice.  
Yes, but Jon's battle also occurs before the sun rises. Maybe by the time the actual dawn comes, there will no longer be reason for the sword to burn at all. The battle is done.

 

I don't agree here, though I understand your point. Eddard was not supposed to be killed, and he didn't sign up to be killed. He was murdered, out of sheer cruelty. That's also how I interpret the Nissa Nissa story - she was murdered, just like the moon was murdered. The moon rocks were corrupted, and the moon's destruction is what disrupted the season and caused the long night. Not a sacrifice, and nothing good achieved from it. Same with Eddard - his death did not achieve anything. It was tragic, a waste. 

Beric lights his sword on fire with his own blood, true, but this too is ineffective as he loses the fight, his sword breaks. 

 

Even if the red sword is equated with self sacrifice, that is still a death association.

 

Yes, the others eyes are as blue as death, but there is plenty of dragon = death going on... I mean all the dragons stuff is death associated. Death and life, light and shadow, these do not belong to ice or fire in exclusion. We've seen bright and dark on both sides, and even cold and heat. The blue star eyes burn, nothing burns like the cold, etc. The dragon-forged black steel has a cold bite, and much is made of this fact. Frozen fire is another. So too the entire concept of black ice in regards to Ned's sword. 

 

Red, first and foremost, represents blood and fire. As such, it could easily represent sacrifice at times, since that is one form of death. But all the bloody murder and consuming fire is red too, so the most accurate thing to say is it goes both ways, both versions of death. But the red of the sword and the red of the birthing bed are two different ideas, as I will try to show.

Self sacrifice: I see that as the procreation half of the Lightbringer metaphor. Just as Mithras holds a sword in one hand and a torch in the other, the sword representing death and the torch life and rebirth, the Lightbringer metaphor has both ideas. The self sacrifice and procreation side is the interpretation of the myth as childbirth.  Comet = penis, Lightbringer stabbing = impregnation, and Nissa Nissa's death represents a woman who sacrifices everything to give life. Obviously we have a lot of childbirth death in the story, specifically around mothers of Targaryens, and I think George is pointing at the sacrifice that a mother makes to bring a child into the world. Before modern medicine of course something like 25% of pregnancies ended in childbirth death (correct if I am wrong, I know it was a significant number), so any time a woman tries to have a baby, she is risking her own life. Anyway, this is one half of the Lightbringer myth as Schmendrick's legendary essay pointed out. 

 

The death, blood betrayal side of the equation is a dark sorcerer who sacrifices another - his wife - to work dark magic. The Bloodstone Emperor version of the Azor Ahai story reveals this, as does the celestial mechanics (the moon's death triggered the Long Night). This is where the sword, which is a symbol of death, comes in.

 

Killing someone to make a magic sword is evil. I'm going down with that ship, for better or for worse. A sword created this way can only be evil. One does not sacrifice oneself to make someone else a magic sword either. That's a murder, and its the darkest form of blood magic. This is just my opinion, based my understanding of the books, but I feel strongly about it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I just don't think that is what Martin is trying to show us. You sacrifice yourself to create life, not death. Lyanna represents this, with her bed of blood. She dies to bring Jon into the world. Jon is a manifestation of Lightbringer (again Schmendrick), but he is the human manifestation, the torch, the light-bringer of love and light. The procreation half of the Lightbringer story. 

 

The dragons and the sword manifestations of Lightbringer represent the death magic ritual, such as Dany performs. And don't tell me she sacrificed herself - she did not. She did not die, and she knew she would not die. The entire inner monologue there was about how "don't you see, I am the fire," etc. She did however burn Mirri Maz Duur, and questionably she sacrificed Rhaego as well, indirectly. 

And so, a red sword is one achieved through bloody murder, in my opinion. A true lightbringer should have white light, pale flame, or pale blue flame, etc - the most pure and hot and bright kind of fire existent. And it's value may be as a torch, more than a sword.

Again, that's all just my take, this is subjective stuff, so I am not trying to assert reality, just my take on it. :)

[Lady Dyanna]

Hi LmL - you directed me back to Bryan so here I am.  First, the wanderers.  I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing.   The Frey wives might indicate wanderers but I'm not sure how that would be significant to the story.  I love some of the conclusions you come up with from the celestial symbolism but I'm not as into it as you, so a lot of the details go out of my head.  I have just seen you you make mention of 7 wanderers the last is the moon, the comet as the 8th, killed by a ninth.
 
Hodor to me is a "wanderer" in the sense of Odr, Odin's wandering God aspect, but I got that from myth not the stars, and it is evident the boy already is the "wandering" aspect of our Odin figure's mini me.  He is often said to be wandering - I noticed this on my first read through starting twenty years ago. However, it's more and more often an enslaved and directed walking rather than wandering,  and I hate it when Bran does it to him as much as Hodor does.  So if I think of Hodor as a wanderer, I don't think of him so much as another wandering star or planet, but as Planetos itself, because it too seems to be enslaved to something that is putting it off course for its own ends and out of the natural balance.    
 
Planetos' seasons, if someone in the world book is correct, are off because the days and nights are out of balance, which leads to the seasons being out of balance.  Yandel never corrects the author to say days and nights in Winteros are NOT out of balance, so I assume that they are and it's just a given.  That tells me that the essential imbalance comes from day and night out of balance.  If we look at the oldest myth we know about on Planetos: Maiden Made of Light and Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light is the day (not the sun as I've seen suggested) because her counterpart, the Lion of Night, is the night.  Something is affecting the revolution of Planetos around its own axis.  It doesn't turn to face the sun in a natural way, or turn away from it in a natural way. It halts and pauses, retreats, advances, speeds up - it wanders.  I'm sure you've come to this conclusion in your astronomy threads but I honestly get lost in them (sorry!) so I don't know.  
 
Anyway, if I connect this to what is happening to Hodor as 'my' wandering figure, then the problem with Planetos comes down to an initial cometary impact (Hodor hitting his head), affecting the planet's revolution (Hodor's wandering), and compoundment of the problem with forced and ignorant skinchanging  (a Long Night is coming for Hodor - probably a long period of occupation by Bran or Bloodraven). Or on the flip side, sorcery.  I think this ties in well with the theme of enslavement that's going on in the books too.
 
If Bran can figure out how to restore Hodor to his senses, instead of enslaving him for his own ends, then I think he'll receive the key (in some form) to restoring a normal pattern to Planetos. If Bran doesn't, the Long Night continues, and I think Hodor will kill Bran out of frustrated fury.  That's the other mythological basis for the name Hodor. Hodor is a god who accidentally kills his brother Baldr (Bran has a lot of Baldr symbolism), and "all the light goes out of the world" (compare this to kinslaying BSW/AE - but in this case Bran is literally killing Hodor's soul by skinchanging him and Hodor accidentally kills Bran physically out of frustration and self-defense). This will actually mean the end of the world, and I believe it to be the core spiritual battle going on out there at the ends of the earth.
 
Martin is playing with both etymologies - Hodor and Odr - with Hodor's name. Odr, who is Odin but only his "wandering god" aspect, a spiritual enslavement/death, and Hodor, who accidentally kills his brother Baldr.
 
That's my take on it anyway.  It might play very well into your own theories, or contradict them.  But I think that if Martin is using wandering star or planet symbolism in other places, it is a key to look at our wandering character, Hodor.
 
Bryan Farring - I honestly don't know.  If he's a Dayne/Targaryan descendent or representative, and the white cold kills him, perhaps it's a minute foreshadowing of what's to come for Dany if she brings her dragons north.  I don't see him as a son, but as someone close who however briefly reminds Stannis of the cost of what he's doing.  If Shireen gets burned in the end, Bryan's death will likely be one of Stannis's considerations in going through with it, because through personalizing the boy he can personalize the rest of his "boys", his army. One for the many.

I just wanted to say that this idea about Hodor is absolutely wonderful!!! I had been trying to tie him into Norse mythology with no luck and I think that you might have just hit the nail on the head! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LmL]

If I may add on to the concept of sacrifice...

"Only death can pay for life." Death pays for life - this is the procreation sacrifice.

I also want to clarify in regards to the dragons as Lightbringer: the Lightbringer sword is death, a Lightbringer person is life, and the dragons are both. "They are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world" (ADWD, Daenerys), but they are also "fire made flesh." Living avatars of death - for whatever that is worth.

Finally, in regards to the moral quandary of sacrificing a human being to make a sword :

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost  

When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good- natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay. (ACOK, Davos)

I submit that Davos is absolutely the stuff of heroes, and we should follow his instinct here. Killing your wife to make a sword makes you a dark lord. Hey! It even rhymes.

Honestly this was something I felt intrinsically before I ever connected the Bloodstone Emperor with Azor Ahai or figured out any of the moon destruction stuff. The first time I heard the Azor Ahai story, I was like "bullshit. That motherfucker is evil." And of course all the research I have done confirms this from multiple angles, as far as I can tell.

[Lady Barbrey]

[Spoiler][/spoiler]
:bowdown: You have some really great ideas in here! Not sure that I agree with all of them, but a lot of it makes quite a bit of sense. Especially the flight of the descendants of the AE. I'm not sure if Dawn came with them or not, but with all of the early dragon like built creations that the current people of Westeros can't account for, it certainly makes sense to have had at least some immigration from the GEotD.

As for Jon's parentage. I'm beginning to think that there might be more of a hexagon surrounding both him and Dany. I'm probably completely off base, but I think that Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, Arthur, Ashara and Lyanna are all somehow mixed together in this. I'm not sure about who played what part, but somehow the more that I look at it, the more complicated it becomes. Or maybe my brain is just protesting being made to think so much! ;)

Thanks Lady D!  This is in response to you and Voice, who asked the same question about did the Daynes have to bring the sword with them.  I think they did (and if they had access why would they leave it behind?) for a few reasons: 1) As a mark of their legitimate descent from the Amethyst Empress, which not only identified them, but might have inspired trust in the followers escaping the GEotD who became the First Men.  Imagine if someone said, hey I'm King Arthur and I'm here to help.  You might not believe him.  But if he produced Excalibur, a sword no one else had and one instantly recognizable from legend?  Much more likely.  Dawn's characteristics are unique. In those days the Daynes might  have wanted to keep hidden from the BSe and descendants but reveal themselves to their followers at the same time.  The sword is the secret handshake; 2) George planted it.  I'm a writer myself (these forums prove a quite terrible distraction when I'm suffering from writer's block) so I try to understand his reasoning.  He has presented us with a perfect knight out of Arthurian legend, from a line of people with purple eyes, and with a pale white sword named Dawn.  There's got to be a backstory.  So why tell us about a purple eyed empress from the Dawn, and line Dany's vision with those people carrying pale white swords, unless what he's doing is providing us with a backstory for the Daynes and their magical sword?  It's actually a simple connection to make once you realize Dany's vision and the GEmperors are related (and that was thanks to LmL not from me).

 

Anyway, glad you liked it!

 

Also, I'm still an R+L=J follower.  I reserve judgment, particularly on Arthur Dayne, until the full story is out.  I would love Jon's dad to be Dayne but still only give it a 10% chance.  What I'm really following through on here is Sly Wren's sword of the morning imagery, as well as her ideas on blood magic corrupting.

[Lady Barbrey]

If I may add on to the concept of sacrifice...

"Only death can pay for life." Death pays for life - this is the procreation sacrifice.

I also want to clarify in regards to the dragons as Lightbringer: the Lightbringer sword is death, a Lightbringer person is life, and the dragons are both. "They are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world" (ADWD, Daenerys), but they are also "fire made flesh." Living avatars of death - for whatever that is worth.

Finally, in regards to the moral quandary of sacrificing a human being to make a sword :

I submit that Davos is absolutely the stuff of heroes, and we should follow his instinct here. Killing your wife to make a sword makes you a dark lord. Hey! It even rhymes.

Honestly this was something I felt intrinsically before I ever connected the Bloodstone Emperor with Azor Ahai or figured out any of the moon destruction stuff. The first time I heard the Azor Ahai story, I was like "bullshit. That motherfucker is evil." And of course all the research I have done confirms this from multiple angles, as far as I can tell.

Honestly, I never from day one thought that AA story was about a sword.  What can a sword do? I always thought it was a birthing story, the sword was a penis, and it was the person born who would be Lightbringer.  That's why I believe Dany is the Lightbringer and her dragons are the fiery light.  But y'all got me started thinking about Jon so I believe he too is a Lightbringer but the sword of the morning to bring back the dawn.  So which one goes where?  Who's going to the corrupted heart of summer and who to the corrupted heart of winter?  It's becoming pretty evident just defeating the Others won't put the world back on track for the seasons.  Something's got to be done about the shadows too, don't you think? 

[Sly Wren]

I don't have time to fully catch up, but a few issues with this scenario come to mind. First, is that Arthur Dayne also had red blood, but Dawn did not glow red in his hand. Not only that, but Dawn has tasted red human blood many times in the past 10,000 years. In text, we read of it drawing Jaime's blood, as well as ending the Smiling Knight's life. So, I'm not sure how human blood will make it take fire. Mayhaps Ghosts?

All true. But also true is the fact that Jon only mentions the "blade burns red" after the wildlings of the Battle for the Wall turn into wights in the Battle for the Dawn.

 

This may just be perception--Jon only mentions the sword twice in the dream. And it's a nightmare. But if it is the case that the sword burns red after the wights show up, have to wonder if the sword is responding to the undead.

 

In the Game prologue (as you know), the Others' swords reflect and shift under the moonlight, like their armor. But the swords (not the armor)  also shimmer faintly blue. They are being witnessed by warm-blooded men. Others hate warm blooded things. What if their swords do, too? If the swords shimmer blue in response to the warm blood?

 

Like the Elves swords in Tolkien glow in response to Orcs?

 

Assuming all of these flights of fancy are true--as Arthur says to Jaime: "all knights must bleed. Blood is the seal of our devotion"--a knight's blood makes him powerful, if he is willing to shed it for others. For honor. Blood gives the fighter power. Seals his devotion. Says the Sword of the Morning, wielder of Dawn.

 

Bottom line--am wondering if Dawn, carried by a proven self-sacrificing warrior who defends the lives of others by risking his own, might burn red with the seal of its wielder's devotion. As the Others' swords shimmer blue as the eyes of death. Both swords taking color when facing each other. A la Tolkien.

 

I don't want to belabor that point too much, instead I'd like to mention another of yours that I did spoilertag. The matter of choice. I have not read all the comments in the thread, but I'm sure by the time I post this, someone will have mentioned that choices matter. I agree. They do. But, so does blood. I would argue that Dany's Valyrian blood predisposes her to some incredibly cruel choices. It may be genetic, or it may not. It makes no matter either way. She is the blood of the dragon, and dragon is as dragon does. LOL

 

If Jon is a Dayne, this may be true of him as well. That no matter what his choices are, he makes the choices that the next Sword of the Morning is bound to make. Getting helpless wildlings south of the Wall fits this modus operandi in my mind.

Agreed. Dany is incredibly drawn to those dragon eggs. And despite all of her sympathy, despite crying out during the first blood ritual "the price is too high,' despite seeing the horrific results of the first blood ritual--Dany still does the second on that gets her dragons. Instinctively knows what to do to get the dragons, knows there's no reason to be afraid. Seems like it's in her blood to know.

 

Jon's upbringing has taught him to take care of others--a big part of that is Ned. But Arthur's letting the Smiling Knight get a new sword in their fight, focusing on taking care of the people in the country-side, his ethic of "blood is the seal of our devotion"--self sacrifice and care for others. Add in Jon's instinctive repulsion from Val's take on Shireen, despite his attraction to Val--Jon's sotm blood seems to be playing a role, whether he got if from the "trying to fix things" Rhaegar, or the "blood is the seal of our devotion" Arthur.

[Sly Wren]

 

Something like that - it may be that V steel is the only steel that can handle magical fire. Much is made of Beric's and Thoros's swords not being able to handle it. But v steel is well nigh indestructible. I'm not sure what the deal is with the Other's swords.. perhaps v steel acts like dragonglass, or perhaps only a v steel infused with dragonglass will work.

 

Yes, the cotf are not metalworkers, but they may have supplied the dragonglass. The GEotD certainly were. I suspect the LH story is a bit figurative - instead of his sword breaking fro the cold, it broke against Dawn, original Ice. Instead of the idea that he was far in the north when it broke and reforged, perhaps that happened south of the neck, at Oldtown. Instead of 12 companions who died, maybe it was 12 companions who died and were resurrected. This is how I see the old stories - always an element of truth, but always buried or stylized. The Grey King did "slay" the sea dragon, if the Grey King was one of the greenseers who was responsible for the moon destruction. The sea dragon was a moon meter, so whoever killed the moon and caused the sea dragon to fall can be said to have "slain" it. Etc. 

All workable--and I agree on the stylized aspects of the old stories. I think, though, that the knowledge to infuse a sword with dragonglass would also require how to do it--doesn't seem like normal forging. And that may not be info at the Children's non-metallurgical-culture's disposal.

 

Consider one more thing about sword fire. There is no chance that V steel burns blue or silvery blue. None. If v steel burns, it will have shadow fire, black fire, or red and black fire. WE've seen flaming silvery blue swords, so we know they are a thing. What sword could possibly burn this way, except for Dawn? 

Agree on the dark red shadow fire of VS. 

 

The blue swords--both the Others' swords (blue as the eyes of death) and Jaime and Brienne's. So, seems like blue fire can be in at least two contexts--I'm not ready to argue that Jaime and Brienne are Others. Though the blue of their swords might have been tied to their being in an underworld, a place of the dead. 

 

On Dawn--it could burn blue, as you say. Purity--though blue, especially glowing blue, does also=death in this world. Corrupted blue heart.

 

But as I said to Voice above, am also thinking of Arthur's statements on sealing devotion with one's own blood. Jaime's bloody knees and the cut on Jaime's shoulder with Dawn--bright red, non-shadowed blood. Life's blood. Devotion. Shed willingly to serve others.

 

Seems like an option, too.

[Lady Barbrey]

All true. But also true is the fact that Jon only mentions the "blade burns red" after the wildlings of the Battle for the Wall turn into wights in the Battle for the Dawn.

 

This may just be perception--Jon only mentions the sword twice in the dream. And it's a nightmare. But if it is the case that the sword burns red after the wights show up, have to wonder if the sword is responding to the undead.

 

In the Game prologue (as you know), the Others' swords reflect and shift under the moonlight, like their armor. But the swords (not the armor)  also shimmer faintly blue. They are being witnessed by warm-blooded men. Others hate warm blooded things. What if their swords do, too? If the swords shimmer blue in response to the warm blood?

 

Like the Elves swords in Tolkien glow in response to Orcs?

 

Assuming all of these flights of fancy are true--as Arthur says to Jaime: "all knights must bleed. Blood is the seal of our devotion"--a knight's blood makes him powerful, if he is willing to shed it for others. For honor. Blood gives the fighter power. Seals his devotion. Says the Sword of the Morning, wielder of Dawn.

 

Bottom line--am wondering if Dawn, carried by a proven self-sacrificing warrior who defends the lives of others by risking his own, might burn red with the seal of its wielder's devotion. As the Others' swords shimmer blue as the eyes of death. Both swords taking color when facing each other. A la Tolkien.

 

Agreed. Dany is incredibly drawn to those dragon eggs. And despite all of her sympathy, despite crying out during the first blood ritual "the price is too high,' despite seeing the horrific results of the first blood ritual--Dany still does the second on that gets her dragons. Instinctively knows what to do to get the dragons, knows there's no reason to be afraid. Seems like it's in her blood to know.

 

Jon's upbringing has taught him to take care of others--a big part of that is Ned. But Arthur's letting the Smiling Knight get a new sword in their fight, focusing on taking care of the people in the country-side, his ethic of "blood is the seal of our devotion"--self sacrifice and care for others. Add in Jon's instinctive repulsion from Val's take on Shireen, despite his attraction to Val--Jon's sotm blood seems to be playing a role, whether he got if from the "trying to fix things" Rhaegar, or the "blood is the seal of our devotion" Arthur.

I think I was thinking of Baelor the Blessed when I said that bit about choice.  I think there is a shadow on the Targaryans, or at least some of them, and I mean a literal "shadow" that has been internalized over the years from their first bonds with the dragons and inherited by their descendants.  If you look at Baelor, he wanted a dragon but never hatched one because he could not or would not embrace his dragon self.  His self-abnegation was great for the realm, the small folk loved him, but he even locked his own sisters up so he wouldn't be tempted to love or screw one of them.  Over the years, his behaviour grew more and more erratic and eventually he seems to have been insane. Aegon "Egg" seems to have been okay, and a few others, but the bond seems to have weakened and magic dwindled after the last dragons were born. They didn't have the same temptation, and even when it was weaker they did stupid things like drink wildfyre desperate for a dragon to match their dragon self.  Dany had the right blood, she had the eggs - I honestly don't think she had a choice once those dragons started waking up in their shell, long before they were born, except to deny herself and go insane.  

 

So if Jon binds one, or Tyrion for that matter, will they have a choice when that dragon self comes calling?  Very doubtful, I think, if they're Targaryans. And weirdly, I think Tyrion has already seen that vision for himself.  He becomes two-headed in his dream, one head laughing while killing his father and his brother Jaime, while the other head weeps.  We don't see that, or I don't remember anything of the kind in Jon's dream.  He's killing people he loves or just knows and there is nothing laughing or exulting in it - it is all grief and nightmare.

 

Arthur Dayne will only have seen how Dawn responds to humans, which would be like a natural sword.  He would not have seen how it responds to dragons, Others, or the shadow-bound.  It's possible it will do something unusual, like burn red for the Others or go icy for the dragons.  I don't think so though.  If my theory is correct, it was forged before there were any shadows.  If my theory is incorrect and Dawn was just named after the old empire and he doesn't carry the pale sword of his ancestors, it's just a coincidence it looks the same, then I imagine the Children gave it to him and it can do anything.  There's also a chance a Dayne was the Last Hero and the Children reforged it for him making it stronger with something extra?  No, likely too Aragorn-Rivendell.

[Sly Wren]

[spoiler]I think I was thinking of Baelor the Blessed when I said that bit about choice.  I think there is a shadow on the Targaryans, or at least some of them, and I mean a literal "shadow" that has been internalized over the years from their first bonds with the dragons and inherited by their descendants.  If you look at Baelor, he wanted a dragon but never hatched one because he could not or would not embrace his dragon self.  His self-abnegation was great for the realm, the small folk loved him, but he even locked his own sisters up so he wouldn't be tempted to love or screw one of them.  Over the years, his behaviour grew more and more erratic and eventually he seems to have been insane. Aegon "Egg" seems to have been okay, and a few others, but the bond seems to have weakened and magic dwindled after the last dragons were born. They didn't have the same temptation, and even when it was weaker they did stupid things like drink wildfyre desperate for a dragon to match their dragon self.  Dany had the right blood, she had the eggs - I honestly don't think she had a choice once those dragons started waking up in their shell, long before they were born, except to deny herself and go insane.[/spoiler]  

I like this metaphor a lot. When Dany wakes after her miscarriage, she notes that Jorah looks shadowed, that he has taken her into the shadow where no life should go and killed her child. She acknowledges that he didn't know, but still--she seems to think his touching the shadow has permanently tainted him and is shown by his harrowed appearance (I'm working on memory with that--will edit if it turns out to be off--but I'm pretty sure of the basics).

 

So, Dany saw the tent, she saw the effects, she cried out "the price is too high," she knows it cost her child's life, she knows it's tainted Jorah--and she still does the ceremony. Exults in it, wondering how those watching can be afraid at the wonder of this fire. It really seems like the craving for dragons and fire has overrun practical knowledge.

 

Some of her dragon dreams are horrible--and yet she does this. First time I read the novel, I yelled NO!!! at my book when she started the ritual. Oddly, my book did not respond. Really seems like her choice is limited/overshadowed by her blood.

 

It also reminds me of Craster--everyone seems to agree he is unendingly vile, but some wildlings say he "bears a heavy curse"--a blood curse? Something that drove the sacrifices in the first place? His keep is "safe," but definitely shadowed. His fire is warm, but smoky, and it's hard to see in the keep. Jon sees the glory of ice and light after NOT sleeping in the keep or near any of the NW that like Craster. After sleeping apart from the shadow--maybe.

 

[spoiler]So if Jon binds one, or Tyrion for that matter, will they have a choice when that dragon self comes calling?  Very doubtful, I think, if they're Targaryans. And weirdly, I think Tyrion has already seen that vision for himself.  He becomes two-headed in his dream, one head laughing while killing his father and his brother Jaime, while the other head weeps.  We don't see that, or I don't remember anything of the kind in Jon's dream.  He's killing people he loves or just knows and there is nothing laughing or exulting in it - it is all grief and nightmare.[/spoiler]

I hadn't thought of Tyrion in this context--but he really does have a split identity when it comes to his father and Jaime. If he is a Targ, will be very interesting to see what happens with that identity. He's better at muddling through mixed motives than Dany is. . . 

 

Agreed on the dream. Jon's distress at killing the wights is the same distress he had in life--NOT vengeance. Necessity, tragedy, and elements (like Robb's death) that he had nothing to do with but still feels guilty about. Jon feels guilty about taking anything from his family, as much as he wants to be a "true" Stark. If Jon is part Targ, his need for dominance over others is astoundingly well-supressed.

 

[spoiler]Arthur Dayne will only have seen how Dawn responds to humans, which would be like a natural sword.  He would not have seen how it responds to dragons, Others, or the shadow-bound.  It's possible it will do something unusual, like burn red for the Others or go icy for the dragons.  I don't think so though.  If my theory is correct, it was forged before there were any shadows.  If my theory is incorrect and Dawn was just named after the old empire and he doesn't carry the pale sword of his ancestors, it's just a coincidence it looks the same, then I imagine the Children gave it to him and it can do anything.  There's also a chance a Dayne was the Last Hero and the Children reforged it for him making it stronger with something extra?  No, likely too Aragorn-Rivendell.[/spoiler]

Fair point. But I keep coming back to the descriptions of both VS and the Others' swords as looking "alive." VS is alive via dragons and blood spells. Good chance for something similar with the Others' swords.

 

But Dawn is also described as "alive with light." And, as you say, very unlikely to be touched by shadows. So, how "alive?" "Blood is the seal of our devotion." Alive with the blood of its wielder? If so, how would an untainted, living sword react to a shadowed, blood-sacrifice sword? An "abominable" imitation of itself?

 

And agree on the last bolded--it is possible. But I really think the Last Hero got a new sword.

 

Am assuming you might have seen this: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/(The "TLDR" is in post #3 if you are rushed.) Not sure on all of it yet--but the idea that the Last Hero was rejecting abomination--seems like that could be a reasonable theory re: what qualified him for the sword.

[Lady Dyanna]

I only glanced at it--will hopefully have time later today.
 

True--we do have tales re: the Long Night, but they aren't overly helpful as a "how-to" book. Save maybe "no sacrifices!" And studying in the ruins might be informative--if people could get over their fear. Is anything actually "haunting?" Is it something else?
 
The comparisons are worth doing--basics make me nervous for Dany and her dragons. But then I've been nervous about those dragons since I first read Game. 
 
Were you thinking about a specific comparison or conclusion?

Not necessarily. I do think that Lady Barbrey might be on the right track. Take a good look at what we do know about both from the text and especially the WB and use what we know of each to fill in the blanks in the other. If only time came in unlimited quantity...

Yes--big ifs, considering how she's been responding to some of Barristan's info on her family. If she ends up with a Dothraki horde, anyone's being able to "gain her trust" might be a herculean task.
 

Good point--makes me think Sansa's descent really is like the symbolic descent into a dead underworld--magical, but a realm of the dead. Jon's in the cave is more "temptress" oriented. And Sansa's lost time moving into connection with Winterfell--still tied to that dead-underworld space. Jon has to choose to leave the cave before he can see dawn. Has to leave it and dare to hope.

"The Lady of the Stump?"  ;)

lol. True on both of the above.

[Lady Dyanna]

This has possibilities.
 
Nan tells Bran: 
“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”
 
The bolded could be seen as fairytale exaggeration--but so far, Nan's tales mostly seem to have some truth to them. Why do the Others hate not only warm weather and iron (warding) but "hot blood?"
 
Dawn is described as "alive with light" in the sun. The Others' swords in the Game prologue: 
"The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight , translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor."
 
Blue in the Others=death. "Blue as the eyes of death." Alive in cold moonlight, but shimmering with the color of death.
 
So, if Dawn, which shares some qualities (based on the limited info that we have) with the Others' swords is alive in the sunlight (hated by Others) and has to be wielded by a specific bloodline (perhaps like the Other's sword--which seems to disappear after Sam kills its wielder)--seems at least possible that Dawn would be alive with the warm life force. Hot human blood. Red light. And might even explain why the Others hate hot-blooded things. 
 
You have probably already put all of this together--am just sorting it out in my own head.
 
But it makes some sense--power of life vs. power of death. Unnatural death is the real enemy. And Dawn opposes it.
 
So far, I'm liking this very, very much!!! 
 
And am very glad your epiphany did not require an underworld. :)

I suspect that there may be yet more to it, but, again, you're better at putting what I'm thinking into words than I am. I suspect that there's also an element of self-sacrifice involved, just not quite grasping what or how? It seems like Martin is equating the blue light with death and going against the natural way of things through the Others. Red is the opposite of blue, tied to life and nature. If there is a link between the Others and their swords I would bet it involves sacrifice of some sort and I'm willing to bet that they are not the self-sacrificing type. But Jon is.

[Nozlym]

I suspect that there may be yet more to it, but, again, you're better at putting what I'm thinking into words than I am. I suspect that there's also an element of self-sacrifice involved, just not quite grasping what or how? It seems like Martin is equating the blue light with death and going against the natural way of things through the Others. Red is the opposite of blue, tied to life and nature. If there is a link between the Others and their swords I would bet it involves sacrifice of some sort and I'm willing to bet that they are not the self-sacrificing type. But Jon is.

so ur saying that at anytime they let go of their weapon it starts to drip?

[Lady Dyanna]

:cheers:
 
I don't have time to fully catch up, but a few issues with this scenario come to mind. First, is that Arthur Dayne also had red blood, but Dawn did not glow red in his hand. Not only that, but Dawn has tasted red human blood many times in the past 10,000 years. In text, we read of it drawing Jaime's blood, as well as ending the Smiling Knight's life. So, I'm not sure how human blood will make it take fire. Mayhaps Ghosts?

I agree that we have never been told of Dawn burning red. But, not hearing about and saying that it has never occurred are not necessarily one and the same. Dawn may have tasted human blood before, but has it tasted the blood of self-sacrifice? What happens when it does? I would imagine forging or maintaining the link would require some form of sacrifice. I would imagine the same to be true of the Others and their bond as well, but they don't exactly seem to be the type that would be into self-sacrifice either. However, Jon certainly is. I can't pretend to know that I understand exactly how this might happen, but it just seems to me that if death is blue, life would be red.

[Lady Dyanna]

I don't agree here, though I understand your point. Eddard was not supposed to be killed, and he didn't sign up to be killed. He was murdered, out of sheer cruelty. That's also how I interpret the Nissa Nissa story - she was murdered, just like the moon was murdered. The moon rocks were corrupted, and the moon's destruction is what disrupted the season and caused the long night. Not a sacrifice, and nothing good achieved from it. Same with Eddard - his death did not achieve anything. It was tragic, a waste. 
Beric lights his sword on fire with his own blood, true, but this too is ineffective as he loses the fight, his sword breaks. 
 
Even if the red sword is equated with self sacrifice, that is still a death association.
 
Yes, the others eyes are as blue as death, but there is plenty of dragon = death going on... I mean all the dragons stuff is death associated. Death and life, light and shadow, these do not belong to ice or fire in exclusion. We've seen bright and dark on both sides, and even cold and heat. The blue star eyes burn, nothing burns like the cold, etc. The dragon-forged black steel has a cold bite, and much is made of this fact. Frozen fire is another. So too the entire concept of black ice in regards to Ned's sword. 
 
Red, first and foremost, represents blood and fire. As such, it could easily represent sacrifice at times, since that is one form of death. But all the bloody murder and consuming fire is red too, so the most accurate thing to say is it goes both ways, both versions of death. But the red of the sword and the red of the birthing bed are two different ideas, as I will try to show.
Self sacrifice: I see that as the procreation half of the Lightbringer metaphor. Just as Mithras holds a sword in one hand and a torch in the other, the sword representing death and the torch life and rebirth, the Lightbringer metaphor has both ideas. The self sacrifice and procreation side is the interpretation of the myth as childbirth.  Comet = penis, Lightbringer stabbing = impregnation, and Nissa Nissa's death represents a woman who sacrifices everything to give life. Obviously we have a lot of childbirth death in the story, specifically around mothers of Targaryens, and I think George is pointing at the sacrifice that a mother makes to bring a child into the world. Before modern medicine of course something like 25% of pregnancies ended in childbirth death (correct if I am wrong, I know it was a significant number), so any time a woman tries to have a baby, she is risking her own life. Anyway, this is one half of the Lightbringer myth as Schmendrick's legendary essay pointed out. 
 
The death, blood betrayal side of the equation is a dark sorcerer who sacrifices another - his wife - to work dark magic. The Bloodstone Emperor version of the Azor Ahai story reveals this, as does the celestial mechanics (the moon's death triggered the Long Night). This is where the sword, which is a symbol of death, comes in.
 
Killing someone to make a magic sword is evil. I'm going down with that ship, for better or for worse. A sword created this way can only be evil. One does not sacrifice oneself to make someone else a magic sword either. That's a murder, and its the darkest form of blood magic. This is just my opinion, based my understanding of the books, but I feel strongly about it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I just don't think that is what Martin is trying to show us. You sacrifice yourself to create life, not death. Lyanna represents this, with her bed of blood. She dies to bring Jon into the world. Jon is a manifestation of Lightbringer (again Schmendrick), but he is the human manifestation, the torch, the light-bringer of love and light. The procreation half of the Lightbringer story. 
 
The dragons and the sword manifestations of Lightbringer represent the death magic ritual, such as Dany performs. And don't tell me she sacrificed herself - she did not. She did not die, and she knew she would not die. The entire inner monologue there was about how "don't you see, I am the fire," etc. She did however burn Mirri Maz Duur, and questionably she sacrificed Rhaego as well, indirectly. 
And so, a red sword is one achieved through bloody murder, in my opinion. A true lightbringer should have white light, pale flame, or pale blue flame, etc - the most pure and hot and bright kind of fire existent. And it's value may be as a torch, more than a sword.
Again, that's all just my take, this is subjective stuff, so I am not trying to assert reality, just my take on it. :)

Is it strange that in a way, I agree with you, but in a way I don't? I think that you're quite correct in saying that so much of this is subjective. I think that we're both looking at the same things, yet each interpreting them a bit differently. For example, Ned. Do I think that he was murdered? Most definitely. Yet, I bet that if you asked him, he'd tell you that he'd gladly sacrifice his life for any of his children. Varys threatened Sansa. Ned sacrifices his honor by choice to protect Sansa. Would the threat have come to fruition? Who knows? So, even though morally it feels like murder, I don't know that we can take Ned's self-sacrifice from the equation. With Beric, no he didn't win and yes, the sword broke, but that is after the fact. His later death has no impact on the color the sword burns. He was alive when it took light from his self sacrifice. With Nissa Nissa, again we venture into the territory of moral ambiguity. Is it or is it not self-sacrifice by another hand if you willingly give your life? Do I necessarily agree with it? Not really. But is it my place to judge another's attempt at self-sacrifice? And, despite theories, gut instinct, etc, what we are told is that she willingly sacrificed herself. Is it true? I don't know. I wasn't there. But that is what the story tells us. There's also quite a bit of difference between the dragons and the Others. The dragons may cause death, but the Others are death. No matter how much destruction they might cause, the dragons are alive. Now, the dragons are shadowed, possibly unnatural. Maybe this is why the color of their flame varies, based upon their shadows? (Just throwing a crazy idea out there.)

Anyways, I have already said more than I intended to, as I have the sneaky suspicion that this might just be one area where you and I will need to agree to disagree. So much of it is tied up in both morality and interpretation, but will gladly expand my reply if you wish. Just pretty set on my own interpretation right now, right, wrong or indifferent. (Although probably wrong. ;) )

[Sly Wren]

Not necessarily. I do think that Lady Barbrey might be on the right track. Take a good look at what we do know about both from the text and especially the WB and use what we know of each to fill in the blanks in the other. If only time came in unlimited quantity...

Agreed. You're right--after finally getting time to read Lady Barbery's OP and thinking of a few other things (LmL's posts, Lord Martin's, too)--I was thinking of looking for clues in stories. As we can in Nan's tales.  I've always found it startling that there are few folktales about Doom. But, if Lady Barbery's theory holds, we have clues in the patterns of Martinlandia.

 

The basic problem always seems to be playing with magics--even as they are coveted. And yet, there also seem to be completely untainted magics. Or, to co-opt Lady Barbery's phrase, un-sahdowed magics. Like Jon's moment with the ice outside Craster's. Same with Sansa's moment at the Eyrie. And the Stark kids' relationships with their direwolves seems like a more natural magic than some of V6's talk about "taking" animals.

 

Bigger, more historical patterns--those I'll have to think on. But perhaps it has something to do with why the Daynes stayed "hidden." Staying out of the path of corrupting, shadowed magics. Maybe.

 

I suspect that there may be yet more to it, but, again, you're better at putting what I'm thinking into words than I am. I suspect that there's also an element of self-sacrifice involved, just not quite grasping what or how? It seems like Martin is equating the blue light with death and going against the natural way of things through the Others. Red is the opposite of blue, tied to life and nature. If there is a link between the Others and their swords I would bet it involves sacrifice of some sort and I'm willing to bet that they are not the self-sacrificing type. But Jon is.

Yes--the Valyrian blood-sacrifice, shadowed red--it seems like an abomination or perversion of the normal life-force. Healthy life's blood. Re-reading the Craster chapter, it struck me that in his "safe" keep, protected via blood sacrifices, the fire is warm, but dark. Smoky. Not clear and bright like the dawn outside the keep. 

 

So, the idea that red could be healthy life--works for me.

 

Re: the sacrifice and Others' swords--have you seen Dark Sister 1001's thread? It's well-formatted, well-argued, and easy to read. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130309-the-fate-of-crasters-sons/

[Lady Dyanna]

so ur saying that at anytime they let go of their weapon it starts to drip?

Um, no. I'm saying that it's quite possible that the swords of the Others are magically bound to their "life force" via spell. Either that or Sam just missed examining a pretty important weapon when he melted Ser Puddles.

[Nozlym]

Um, no. I'm saying that it's quite possible that the swords of the Others are magically bound to their "life force" via spell. Either that or Sam just missed examining a pretty important weapon when he melted Ser Puddles.

man things sure have changed. back in the day on these forums one of the biggest threads was that ppl thought Dawn was a weapon of the Others.

[LmL]

I agree that we have never been told of Dawn burning red. But, not hearing about and saying that it has never occurred are not necessarily one and the same. Dawn may have tasted human blood before, but has it tasted the blood of self-sacrifice? What happens when it does? I would imagine forging or maintaining the link would require some form of sacrifice. I would imagine the same to be true of the Others and their bond as well, but they don't exactly seem to be the type that would be into self-sacrifice either. However, Jon certainly is. I can't pretend to know that I understand exactly how this might happen, but it just seems to me that if death is blue, life would be red.

I mentioned this before, not sure if you missed it, but red has a very heavy death association, and blue can mean life as well (the blue rose, for example). My point is that ice and fire both have aspects of life and death, hot and cold, light and shadow. If you assign life to one and death to the other you will be making a mistake. Both sides have all aspects. You have to look at the specific context.

The one area which ice and fire are opposite is the idea that fire consumes and ice preserves. Those attributes are the sole dominion of the respective sides... but life and death, light and shadow, those are on both sides.

The colors most associated with natural life in the books are green and gold. Those are the colors of summer.

[Voice]

I agree that we have never been told of Dawn burning red. But, not hearing about and saying that it has never occurred are not necessarily one and the same.

Agreed. Just pointing out some possible issues.

Though, it may be we have indeed been told of Dawn burning red. Aemon associates AA with the Battle for the... Dawn... and, he expects Stannis' sword to expel not only light, but heat, if it is indeed the red sword of heroes. As dawn quite literally brings the light, I think it's highly probable that the LB tale from Asshai is simply a retelling of the SotM.

Dawn may have tasted human blood before, but has it tasted the blood of self-sacrifice? What happens when it does? I would imagine forging or maintaining the link would require some form of sacrifice.

Sure. I've suggested the same.

I would imagine the same to be true of the Others and their bond as well, but they don't exactly seem to be the type that would be into self-sacrifice either.

Yeah. And for all the dogma associated with them, they don't seem all that religious. LOL

However, Jon certainly is. I can't pretend to know that I understand exactly how this might happen, but it just seems to me that if death is blue, life would be red.

I completely agree, once again. Life is red. Natural life, anyway. I think Jon likely embodies natural fire from house Dayne, and natural ice from house Stark. 'Blood of the Dragon' seems as perverse as 'Blood of the Others' to me.

[LmL]

Agreed. Just pointing out some possible issues.

Though, it may be we have indeed been told of Dawn burning red. Aemon associates AA with the Battle for the... Dawn... and, he expects Stannis' sword to expel not only light, but heat, if it is indeed the red sword of heroes. As dawn quite literally brings the light, I think it's highly probable that the LB tale from Asshai is simply a retelling of the SotM.

Sure. I've suggested the same.

Yeah. And for all the dogma associated with them, they don't seem all that religious. LOL

I completely agree, once again. Life is red. Natural life, anyway. I think Jon likely embodies natural fire from house Dayne, and natural ice from house Stark. 'Blood of the Dragon' seems as perverse as 'Blood of the Others' to me.

 

Blood of the dragon is still red, y'all. :devil: Red goes both ways  :devil: , as does blue. I'm telling you. There's even a plague called the red death.  :devil:

 

Dany's door is red - and it represents waking the dragon. "Fire red, blood red, the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign."

 

​full disclosure: I typed "walking the dragon" instead of "waking," and I was tempted to leave it in because it conjures up a funny mental image. And now you have it. Walk you dragon, everyone, walk your dragon. They get a bit cooped up and pissy otherwise.

 

“When your dragons were small, they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”  (ADWD, Daenerys)

 

“Your wolves have more sense than your maester,” the wildling woman said.  “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.”  The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”  (ACOK, Bran)

 

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god.  “The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned.  Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun— he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.”

 

She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.” 

 

“That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.” 

 

“Our blood or theirs?” 

 

“Was there ever a war where only one side bled?” Her uncle gave a shake of the head. “The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye.  (ACOK, Catelyn)

 

 

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet … old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets.

 

[...]

 

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.”

 

The child had been plagued by nightmares as far back as Maester Cressen could recall. “We have talked of this before,” he said gently. “The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child. In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria. It was the Valyrians who raised this citadel, and they had ways of shaping stone since lost to us. A castle must have towers wherever two walls meet at an angle, for defense. The Valyrians fashioned these towers in the shape of dragons to make their fortress seem more fearsome, just as they crowned their walls with a thousand gargoyles instead of simple crenellations.” He took her small pink hand in his own frail spotted one and gave it a gentle squeeze. “So you see, there is nothing to fear.”

 

Shireen was unconvinced. “What about the thing in the sky? Dalla and Matrice were talking by the well, and Dalla said she heard the red woman tell Mother that it was dragonsbreath. If the dragons are breathing, doesn’t that mean they are coming to life?”

 

The red woman, Maester Cressen thought sourly. Ill enough that she’s filled the head of the mother with her madness, must she poison the daughter’s dreams as well? He would have a stern word with Dalla, warn her not to spread such tales. “The thing in the sky is a comet, sweet child. A star with a tail, lost in the heavens. It will be gone soon enough, never to be seen again in our lifetimes. Watch and see.”  

 

[...]

 

The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon’s maw. (TO DIE - He stepped into the red door which was the dragon's maw to DIE, and hear about the shadow dance). 

 

Over the clatter of knife and plate and the low mutter of table talk, he heard Patchface singing, “… dance, my lord, dance my lord,” to the accompaniment of jangling cowbells. The same dreadful song he’d sung this morning. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.”

 

[...]

 

“Maester,” said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester’s chain, ornamented with a single great ruby. Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. Even her eyes were red … but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men’s eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester’s eyes. Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red.

 

“I … thank you, my lady.”

 

“A man your age must look to where he steps,” Melisandre said courteously. “The night is dark and full of terrors.”

 

He knew the phrase, some prayer of her faith. It makes no matter, I have a faith of my own. “Only children fear the dark,” he told her.

 

Yet even as he said the words, he heard Patchface take up his song again. “The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord.”  

 

[...]

 

“He has an ally,” Lady Selyse said. “R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow.”

 

“Gods make uncertain allies at best,” the old man insisted, “and that one has no power here.”

 

“You think not?” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat caught the light as she turned her head, and for an instant it seemed to glow bright as the comet. “If you will speak such folly, Maester, you ought to wear your crown again.”

 

[...]

 

She met him beneath the high table with every man’s eyes upon them. But Cressen saw only her. Red silk, red eyes, the ruby red at her throat, red lips curled in a faint smile as she put her hand atop his own, around the cup. Her skin felt hot, feverish. “It is not too late to spill the wine, Maester.”

 

“No,” he whispered hoarsely. “No.”

 

“As you will.” Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. “And now you.” His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.”

 

At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly. Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes.

(ACOK, prologue)