From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

LmL · September 17, 2015

Oh and let's not forget the "Red Keep," which involved the horrific murder of every stone mason who worked on it.

Red is blood, and blood can be shed in sacrifice or in murder. I really don't understand the notion that blood means life exclusively, and sacrifice, exclusively. It also means death, sunset, fire, etc. It's both. And the blue rose is a distinctly hopeful sign.

Haven't you guys ever seen Star Wars? Don't you remember who has the red sword, and who the blue? ;)

Just sayin.

I rest my case... have a goodnight peeps

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

Since we are testing the forum, I'll start re-posting the lost posts. Apologies in advance for wonkiness in format. I'll put the posts in spoilers in sections of about 5 posts each.

So--first up: 102-105

#102 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 08:59 AM
LmL, on 17 Sept 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:
Oh and let's not forget the "Red Keep," which involved the horrific murder of every stone mason who worked on it.  
Red is blood, and blood can be shed in sacrifice or in murder. I really don't understand the notion that blood means life exclusively, and sacrifice, exclusively. It also means death, sunset, fire, etc. It's both. And the blue rose is a distinctly hopeful sign.
Haven't you guys ever seen Star Wars? Don't you remember who has the red sword, and who the blue?
Just sayin.
I rest my case... have a goodnight peeps
Yes--the force of the red one is strong. So, does that make Howland Reed Obi Wan?
All the quotes on the previous post--no dispute. I even agree on walking the dragon.
But though red often has very negative associations in these novels, it is connected with life, too.
More to the point of the "sword" argument, red is part and parcel with Jon's other self: Ghost. Whose eyes glow red in the dark--tied to Jon's identity, his protection of self and others, his epiphany with the Sword of the Morning. I've only included a selection of quotes below;
Ghost as Jon's protector:
"Down, Ghost," the boy said. The direwolf sat on his haunches. Those red eyes never left Tyrion. Jon came around behind him, slid his hands under his arms, and lifted him easily to his feet. Then he picked up the book and handed it back. Game Tyrion II
Ghost as Jon's partner in defending the weak:
Hours later, as the castle slept, three of them paid a call on his cell. Grenn held his arms while Pyp sat on his legs. Jon could hear Rast's rapid breathing as Ghost leapt onto his chest. The direwolf's eyes burned red as embers as his teeth nipped lightly at the soft skin of the boy's throat, just enough to draw blood. "Remember, we know where you sleep," Jon said softly. Game Jon IV
Ghost as informer and partner in fighting wights:
Jon held out a hand to pull Sam back to his feet. The rangers gathered round to offer smiles and congratulations, all but the gnarled old forester Dywen. "Best we be starting back, m'lord," he said to Bowen Marsh. "Dark's falling, and there's something in the smell o' the night that I mislike."
And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees …
The wolf had something in his jaws. Something black. "What's he got there?" asked Bowen Marsh, frowning. Game Jon IV
Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged. He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight. Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth. Game Jon VII
Ghost as symbolically and literally connected to Jon's earning a sword:
They had moved him back to his old cell in tumbledown Hardin's Tower after the fire, and it was there he returned. Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you." Game Jon VIII
Ghost as comfort and confidant:
Ghost kept pace with them for almost half a mile, red tongue lolling from his mouth. Man and horse alike lowered their heads as he asked the mare for more speed. The wolf slowed, stopped, watching, his eyes glowing red in the moonlight. He vanished behind, but Jon knew he would follow, at his own pace. Game Jon IX
Ghost's feeding Jon when Jon separates himself at Craster's:
Jon spitted the carcass, banked the fire with a pair of rocks, and balanced their meal atop them. The rabbit had been a scrawny thing, but as it cooked it smelled like a king's feast. Other rangers gave them envious looks. Even Ghost looked up hungrily, flames shining in his red eyes as he sniffed. "You had yours before," Jon reminded him. Clash Jon III
Ghost as protector--with red eyes:
"Sure o' that, are you?" Ygritte laughed.
Atop the stones of the ringwall, Ghost hunched with white fur bristling. He made no sound, but his dark red eyes spoke blood. The Lord of Bones moved his hand slowly away from his sword, backed off a step, and left them with a curse.
Ghost padded beside their garrons as Jon and Ygritte descended the Fist. It was not until they were halfway across the Milkwater that Jon felt safe enough to say, "I never asked you to lie for me." Storm Jon II
And, of course, Ghost as leading to Jon's epiphany with the Sword of the Morning--with red eyes:
He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled, yet something drew him to the heights all the same, and he would squat there on his hindquarters, hot breath rising in a white mist as his red eyes drank the stars.
"Do you have names for them as well?" Jon asked, as he went to one knee beside the direwolf and scratched the thick white fur on his neck. "The Hare? The Doe? The She-Wolf?" Ghost licked his face, his rough wet tongue rasping against the scabs where the eagle's talons had ripped Jon's cheek. The bird marked both of us, he thought. "Ghost," he said quietly, "on the morrow we go over. There's no steps here, no cage-and-crane, no way for me to get you to the other side. We have to part. Do you understand?"
In the dark, the direwolf's red eyes looked black. He nuzzled at Jon's neck, silent as ever,his breath a hot mist. The wildlings called Jon Snow a warg, but if so he was a poor one. He did not know how to put on a wolf skin, the way Orell had with his eagle before he'd died. Once Jon had dreamed that he was Ghost, looking down upon the valley of the Milkwater where Mance Rayder had gathered his people, and that dream had turned out to be true. But he was not dreaming now, and that left him only words.
"You cannot come with me," Jon said, cupping the wolf's head in his hands and looking deep into those eyes. "You have to go to Castle Black. Do you understand? Castle Black. Can you find it? The way home? Just follow the ice, east and east, into the sun, and you'll find it. They will know you at Castle Black, and maybe your coming will warn them." He had thought of writing out a warning for Ghost to carry, but he had no ink, no parchment, not even a writing quill, and the risk of discovery was too great. "I will meet you again at Castle Black, but you have to get there by yourself. We must each hunt alone for a time. Alone." Storm Jon III
One last: Ghost and Jon reunited, with Jon's realizing Ghost's red and white tie him to his family and the old gods.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. Storm Jon XII
So, yes--the color has negative associations in the novels in general. But for Jon in particular, it is part of who he is. Part of his protector self. Part of what leads him to his epiphany--to a sword. Glowing red eyes, glowing red sword--maybe.

Edited by Sly Wren, Yesterday, 09:22 AM.


#103 DarkSister1001
Posted Yesterday, 05:29 PM
Seems like the world kept spinning and post kept posting while I was on vacation. Weird. So now I'm all caught up.
Sly Wren, on 13 Sept 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:
Part VI: The Wolf Brings the Dawn
Right after his nightmare of the Battle and “Longclaw” burning red, Jon thinks: “The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise” (Dance Jon XII).
The hour of the wolf is the blackest hour of the night—right before the dawn. Jon, the white wolf, armored in black ice, with red Dawn in his fist. A proven Stark wielding the King of Winter's earned sword. The Hour of the Wolf brings Dawn.
The End
THIS! This is the nail in the coffin for me. "The Hour of the Wolf brings the Dawn". Fucking brilliant. And thanks for all the props. Mucho appreciated.
Sly Wren, on 13 Sept 2015 - 3:49 PM, said:

I'm hoping to see more of Edric--if for no other reason than I want that kid to get out of the mess alive--seems like a nice kid.

But I doubt he has the sword with him, and getting all the way back to Starfall and then back up to the Wall--the logistics of a normal, temporal moving of Dawn are difficult.
Which is why I think (emphasis on the uncertainty of this proposition) that the Sword of the Morning presenting itself to Jon might be a clue. Arthurian myths have swords that present themselves in time of need. Same with other traditions.
Might even explain why Dawn isn't in the North--has to go back to whence it came after purpose is fulfilled. We were playing ideas like those on the first thread. Don't think we came to a consensus, so very happy to hear all opinions.
But, to overcome the time and space issues, seems like a magical presentation might be an option.
Gonna throw out something completely without textual support. I want to see more Edric . He and Jon HAVE to meet. But I think they'd need a mutual person...Arya. Personally, I think Arya will come back to the Riverlands and ride Nymeria. Darkstar steels Dawn thinking it's his birthright. Perhaps Edric (knowing the story of his house and of how Dawn is earned) runs into Darkstar, swipes it from him, connects with Arya and they travel to see Jon together, bringing him Dawn. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.
I saw some posts about Ironwood on the previous thread. I included it in my Analysis of Bran I during our re-read. The link is here but the specific part is
Quote
Symbolism
Ironwood, a tree indigenous to the north, is mentioned only a total of ten times in the series; almost all in the initial book, A Game of Thrones. In precisely half of these instances the ironwood has been altered or formed into an object; in the other half they are in the forests of notable locations, the wolfswood near Deepwood Motte, the Haunted Forest near the Wall and around Craster’s Keep and in the godswood of Winterfell around the heart tree. The presence of ironwood objects symbolizes protection.
QUOTE: “In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.”
Ned explains to Bran that the execution was done to protect the realm from the criminal. Going deeper,
QUOTE: “…why I must do it… our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s like, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”
In executing the man himself and teaching his sons about it Ned is protecting their way, the old way.
In the same chapter ironwood is mentioned again. On the riverbank, north of the bridge they found the dead direwolf and her litter of pups. After convincing Ned to allow them to keep the pups they start back to Winterfell with five little fur balls.
QUOTE: “…Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks…”
Then Jon finds the sixth, Ghost. The direwolves protect the Stark children. The earliest and most prominent protection is from Summer (before he is named). Summer attacks the catspaw hired to kill Bran while in the coma. Other examples are Nymeria attacking Joffrey, Grey Wind biting off the fingers of Greatjon Umber when he intimidates Robb, Summer, Grey Wind and Shaggy Dog cornering Tyrion after he’s suspected of the assassination attempt on Bran and Ghost discovering dragonglass that Sam uses to slay the Other. Even Catelyn, an outsider to the North and a Stark by marriage alone recognizes their importance to the protection of the Stark children and their powerful intuition. She tells Robb:
QUOTE: “Any man Grey Wind mislikes is a man I do not want close to you. These wolves are more than wolves, Robb. You must know that. I think perhaps the gods sent them to us. Your father’s gods, the old gods of the north” (Catelyn ASoS, Chapter 14).
In preparation to leave for King’s Landing “Arya was in her room, packing a polished ironwood chest that was bigger than she was.” She had already nonchalantly thrown her belongings into the chest and now Septa Mordane was making her repack neatly. Jon comes in to say his final goodbye before leaving for the Wall. When Arya explains why she must repack he tells Arya,
QUOTE: “It’s just as well. I have something for you to take with you, and it has to be packed very carefully”.
He gives her Needle, the bravos blade he had made for her. She protected it in her journey South in the ironwood chest, protected it from discovery and Needle has protected her. Her “water dancing” training has aided her in her flight from King’s Landing and her resulting journeys.   Needle has been her connection to the North, Jon and Winterfell, even when it wasn’t with her. Ironically, she uses Needle to bring the king’s justice to another deserter from the Night’s Watch.
The next ironwood object is in Chapter 62 of A Game of Thrones. Tyrion is reunited with Tywin and his host in the Riverlands just before the Battle of the Green Fork. Tyrion has the Vale clansmen with him and has promised to outfit them all with weapons and armor. Leo Lefford has charge of the Lannister supplies and equipped Tyrion and the clansmen with weapons and armor. Before the battle the next morning Shae and Pod help Tyrion don his armor.
QUOTE: “Pod handed him his shield, a massive slab of ironwood banded with steel”.
A shield by definition is protection. For the battle Tywin gave Tyrion and his clansmen over to the left vanguard under the direction of Gregor Clegane. Tyrion suspects that Tywin was setting up a situation that would likely end in the death of Tyrion. When confronted by this Tywin shrugs off the accusation and said he positioned them there with the intent of baiting the enemy with the undisciplined clansmen.
And finally, the last object ironwood object is the door to the Winterfell crypts. The door is only described once and from the inside. In chapter 69 of A Game of Thrones Bran, Hodor, Jojen, Meera, Osha, Rickon, Summer and Shaggy Dog reemerge after hiding in the crypts following the “deaths” of Bran and Rickon at the hands of Theon and “Reek”.
QUOTE: The door to the crypts was made of ironwood. It was old and heavy and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a time.
The crypts of Winterfell are a sacred place. Their concealment in the crypts behind that old, heavy door protected them until they were able to escape Winterfell safely.
Substituting “y” for “i” is common in the series. Blackfyre, Blacktyde, Redwyne & Pyke are a few of the most common, but there are many others. Basing the pronunciation on this spelling pattern, the audiobooks and the general consensus of the forums means that Yronwood is pronounced “Ironwood”. According to the Citadel, the words of House Yronwood are “We Guard the Way”. House Yronwood guarding the way through the Boneway Pass in the Red Mountains of Dorne and protecting Quentyn on his journey reinforces that the occurrence of ironwood/Yronwood in the series symbolizes protection.
All great discussion from everyone. Again SW, kudos to you!



#104 superunknown5

Posted Yesterday, 06:21 PM

Sly Wren, on 17 Sept 2015 - 07:59 AM, said
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. Storm Jon XII

I keeps trying to fix this--no joy. Here's the rest of post #104 by superunknown5

Hey guys, it's Super, author of the ALJ Essay. I'm too busy to post or read much these days, but I've been lurking these threads regularly. This excerpt caught my attention, I just wanted to point out a couple of interesting things.
1.) He says Ghost's eyes are Red, but NOT like Melisandre's. Melisandre is fire made flesh. Her eyes are the red of fire. Ghost's eyes are NOT fire red. Because Jon is not a dragon. They're blood red.
"Blood is the seal of our devotion." - Ser Arthur Dayne
And his fur is "bone white". Jon equates this to the North, Weirwoods, and the Old Gods. But...
Quote: Ser Barristan Selmy rode at Dany's side, his armor flashing in the sun. A long cloak flowed from his shoulders, bleached as white as bone. - Daenerys, ADwD
2.) The bit about the Direwolf pups is telling too. He calls the others "gray and black and brown, for the five Starks" whereas Ghost is "white, white as snow." To wit:
Quote: "I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it." Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickle ran down onto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name . . . like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."
The irony here is delicious. He hates Ned for a dishonor he never did. The real man responsible is his idol, Arthur Dayne, the paragon of honor. This is partly why Jaime is so tortured and confused about his identity. His whole worldview is a lie, and he has no idea.

#105 superunknown5
Posted Yesterday, 06:22 PM
Double post
Edited by superunknown5, Yesterday, 06:22 PM

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And here's 106-110. Hopefully the spoiler works better.

#106 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 08:42 PM
DarkSister1001, on 17 Sept 2015 - 4:29 PM, said:
Seems like the world kept spinning and post kept posting while I was on vacation. Weird. So now I'm all caught up.
THIS! This is the nail in the coffin for me. "The Hour of the Wolf brings the Dawn". Fucking brilliant. And thanks for all the props. Mucho appreciated.
Cheers!
DarkSister1001, on 17 Sept 2015 - 4:29 PM, said:
Gonna throw out something completely without textual support. I want to see more Edric . He and Jon HAVE to meet. But I think they'd need a mutual person...Arya. Personally, I think Arya will come back to the Riverlands and ride Nymeria. Darkstar steels Dawn thinking it's his birthright. Perhaps Edric (knowing the story of his house and of how Dawn is earned) runs into Darkstar, swipes it from him, connects with Arya and they travel to see Jon together, bringing him Dawn. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.
I would love it if Arya and Edric deliver Dawn. The Starks and Daynes came close to a living unification in the last generation. Whether Jon is Arthur's or not, the idea that the Starks and Daynes would unite against this threat--I like it muchly. And Edric is right there, in the Riverlands. In the thick of it--would love an Edric and Arya reunion, too.

DarkSister1001, on 17 Sept 2015 - 4:29 PM, said:
I saw some posts about Ironwood on the previous thread. I included it in my Analysis of Bran I during our re-read. The link is here but the specific part is
Thanks for this! All interesting, but on the protection:
QUOTE:  The presence of ironwood objects symbolizes protection.
Ned explains to Bran that the execution was done to protect the realm from the criminal. Going deeper,
QUOTE: “…why I must do it… our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s like, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”
In executing the man himself and teaching his sons about it Ned is protecting their way, the old way.
Note that despite the history of sacrifice Bran will witness in the trees, and despite Ned's cleaning Ice in the pool in front of the heart tree, Ned is not teaching an ethic of sacrificing the man for the realm. He's teaching justice AND responsibility for taking a life. If you can't see the man as a person, can't "look into his eyes and hear his final words"--then you can't kill him.
So, protecting the realm via upholding laws, but protecting the accused by insisting on the "old way"--if the executioner isn't sure, don't act. Very different ethic than blood sacrifice. An ethic that protects all.
QUOTE: In the same chapter ironwood is mentioned again. On the riverbank, north of the bridge they found the dead direwolf and her litter of pups. After convincing Ned to allow them to keep the pups they start back to Winterfell with five little fur balls.
QUOTE: “…Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks…”
I completely missed that point--they are introduced/guarded by ironwood to become guardians--good catch! Same with the catch on the ironwood box with Needle.
QUOTE: Substituting “y” for “i” is common in the series. Blackfyre, Blacktyde, Redwyne & Pyke are a few of the most common, but there are many others. Basing the pronunciation on this spelling pattern, the audiobooks and the general consensus of the forums means that Yronwood is pronounced “Ironwood”. According to the Citadel, the words of House Yronwood are “We Guard the Way”. House Yronwood guarding the way through the Boneway Pass in the Red Mountains of Dorne and protecting Quentyn on his journey reinforces that the occurrence of ironwood/Yronwood in the series symbolizes protection.
Yup! Throw in that how old that group is (Hightowers, Yronwoods, Daynes) and that the Boneway is originally the Stoneway--the way of the Stony Daynes. Something's up with this ancient, fair-haired, light-eyed group and their names.
DarkSister1001, on 17 Sept 2015 - 4:29 PM, said:
All great discussion from everyone. Again SW, kudos to you!
Cheers!
Edited by Sly Wren, Yesterday, 08:52 PM.

#107 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 08:51 PM
superunknown5, on 17 Sept 2015 - 5:21 PM, said:
Hey guys, it's Super, author of the ALJ Essay. I'm too busy to post or read much these days, but I've been lurking these threads regularly. This excerpt caught my attention, I just wanted to point out a couple of interesting things.
1.) He says Ghost's eyes are Red, but NOT like Melisandre's. Melisandre is fire made flesh. Her eyes are the red of fire. Ghost's eyes are NOT fire red. Because Jon is not a dragon. They're blood red.
"Blood is the seal of our devotion." - Ser Arthur Dayne
And his fur is "bone white". Jon equates this to the North, Weirwoods, and the Old Gods. But...
Quote
Ser Barristan Selmy rode at Dany's side, his armor flashing in the sun. A long cloak flowed from his shoulders,bleached as white as bone. - Daenerys, ADwD
1. Welcome! Thanks for dropping in.
2. Agreed--Jon's not associated with fire red, but blood red. When I did a search for blood and swords in text, it's almost all negative--except for the Arthur scene with Jaime. Blood via self-sacrifice is a seal so "pure," Jaime doesn't even feel Dawn cut his shoulder. It's the one time a sword producing blood isn't at least somewhat grisly (that I could find).
ETA: It's the pure sacrifice--white (as bone) sword by a knight with a cloak white as bone--drawing red blood from a willing devotee--NOT a punishment or execution or sacrifice. The only "righteous" or "moral" blood sacrifice.
3. Very good catch on the "white as bone"--I hadn't thought of Ghost's coat as being like a white cloak. But he is the pup apart from the rest. Set apart and white--the ghost of the greatest of the white cloaks.
superunknown5, on 17 Sept 2015 - 5:21 PM, said:
2.) The bit about the Direwolf pups is telling too. He calls the others "gray and black and brown, for the five Starks" whereas Ghost is "white, white as snow." To wit:
Quote
"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?"
Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."
"No, that wasn't it." Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickle ran down onto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name . . . like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."
The irony here is delicious. He hates Ned for a dishonor he never did. The real man responsible is his idol, Arthur Dayne, the paragon of honor. This is partly why Jaime is so tortured and confused about his identity. His whole worldview is a lie, and he has no idea.
The irony is delicious--and painful. Ned and Jaime have misread completely each other based on lies and limited info.
But the tie in with Jon in this statement, made by the man who wants to be Arthur more than anything--very clear tie in. And painful, delicious irony.

# 108 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 12:47 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 16 Sept 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:
Thanks Lady D! This is in response to you and Voice, who asked the same question about did the Daynes have to bring the sword with them. I think they did (and if they had access why would they leave it behind?) for a few reasons: 1) As a mark of their legitimate descent from the Amethyst Empress, which not only identified them, but might have inspired trust in the followers escaping the GEotD who became the First Men. Imagine if someone said, hey I'm King Arthur and I'm here to help. You might not believe him. But if he produced Excalibur, a sword no one else had and one instantly recognizable from legend? Much more likely. Dawn's characteristics are unique. In those days the Daynes might have wanted to keep hidden from the BSe and descendants but reveal themselves to their followers at the same time. The sword is the secret handshake; 2) George planted it. I'm a writer myself (these forums prove a quite terrible distraction when I'm suffering from writer's block) so I try to understand his reasoning. He has presented us with a perfect knight out of Arthurian legend, from a line of people with purple eyes, and with a pale white sword named Dawn. There's got to be a backstory. So why tell us about a purple eyed empress from the Dawn, and line Dany's vision with those people carrying pale white swords, unless what he's doing is providing us with a backstory for the Daynes and their magical sword? It's actually a simple connection to make once you realize Dany's vision and the GEmperors are related (and that was thanks to LmL not from me).   Anyway, glad you liked it!   Also, I'm still an R+L=J follower. I reserve judgment, particularly on Arthur Dayne, until the full story is out. I would love Jon's dad to be Dayne but still only give it a 10% chance. What I'm really following through on here is Sly Wren's sword of the morning imagery, as well as her ideas on blood magic corrupting.
I certainly think that what you're suggesting is possible and at one point I thought that more than likely. Sometimes I think that I just have too many ideas rattling around in my head. I think that my only reluctance in flat out agreeing with you is that I feel like there are possibly some similarities between Dawn and the swords of the Others. However, it just might be possible that they are linked to the GEotD as well. Not that I have any proof of this, mind you, it's just a gut instinct that I've been trying to play with as of late.
As for Jon's dad, I would say that originally I was 100% on board with RLJ. Actually, it's the reason I originally came to the board. I wanted to see if anyone else thought the same thing. I will say that it is definitely the solution with the most substantial proof available in the text. However, the more I look at it, the more inconsistencies I find. This thread is just one possible example of that. Look how many people commented on Slywren's original thread that her entire theory had to be false because RLJ. I wonder if maybe we're looking at things backwards. Maybe there's a purpose to these RLJ roadblocks. Sometimes the most obvious answer isn't always the correct one. Then again, sometimes it is. So, while I'm not entirely willing to throw RLJ aside, I have to ask myself if another option might in fact end up fitting better. Those six characters are so intertwined during the time period around the Harrenhall tournament and RR that it does give me pause. Basically, it's that a piece or two of the puzzle is still missing and it's crucial to end result.

#109 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 01:15 AM
Sly Wren, on 16 Sept 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:
Agreed. You're right--after finally getting time to read Lady Barbery's OP and thinking of a few other things (LmL's posts, Lord Martin's, too)--I was thinking of looking for clues in stories. As we can in Nan's tales. I've always found it startling that there are few folktales about Doom. But, if Lady Barbery's theory holds, we have clues in the patterns of Martinlandia.   The basic problem always seems to be playing with magics--even as they are coveted. And yet, there also seem to be completely untainted magics. Or, to co-opt Lady Barbery's phrase, un-sahdowed magics. Like Jon's moment with the ice outside Craster's. Same with Sansa's moment at the Eyrie. And the Stark kids' relationships with their direwolves seems like a more natural magic than some of V6's talk about "taking" animals.   Bigger, more historical patterns--those I'll have to think on. But perhaps it has something to do with why the Daynes stayed "hidden." Staying out of the path of corrupting, shadowed magics. Maybe.
I think that's why I'm reluctant to see the CotF as the enemy. From what I've been able to see so far, I feel as if the types of magic they use routinely are of the "non-tainted" type. It may not look pretty, but it is natural.
As Lady Barbrey and Kingmonkey before her have pointed out the whole series seems to be filled with historical echoes. I think that each echo might just fill in a different part of the story. The only problem is actually finding them all and then interpreting them properly.
Quote
Yes--the Valyrian blood-sacrifice, shadowed red--it seems like an abomination or perversion of the normal life-force. Healthy life's blood. Re-reading the Craster chapter, it struck me that in his "safe" keep, protected via blood sacrifices, the fire is warm, but dark. Smoky. Not clear and bright like the dawn outside the keep.    So, the idea that red could be healthy life--works for me.
I'm also wondering if different things might burn a different red. It seems that the tainted magic is always shadowed. And just look at Mel's blood. Corrupted fire magic has turned it black. It's no longer "healthy red."
Quote
Re: the sacrifice and Others' swords--have you seen Dark Sister 1001's thread? It's well-formatted, well-argued, and easy to read. http://asoiaf.wester...-crasters-sons/
Thanks for the link. I have several things on my to read list that I haven't had the chance to get to as of yet, and that's one of them. I don't know where my time is going lately. I haven't gotten to half of what I have wanted to...

#110 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 01:28 AM
LmL, on 16 Sept 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:
I mentioned this before, not sure if you missed it, but red has a very heavy death association, and blue can mean life as well (the blue rose, for example). My point is that ice and fire both have aspects of life and death, hot and cold, light and shadow. If you assign life to one and death to the other you will be making a mistake. Both sides have all aspects. You have to look at the specific context.  The one area which ice and fire are opposite is the idea that fire consumes and ice preserves. Those attributes are the sole dominion of the respective sides... but life and death, light and shadow, those are on both sides. The colors most associated with natural life in the books are green and gold. Those are the colors of summer.
Yes, and for the most part I agree with you. However, there is a difference between "shadowed" or corrupted red and natural or "healthy" red. Just look at Mel's blood, corrupted by fire magic, it has turned black. I would expect any corrupted red to show shadows or a bit of black. Now look at the Others. Their blue is also not a natural or pale blue. It burns brighter than any other blue. I suspect when the natural blue becomes tainted it reflects, burning a brighter blue, just as the Others armor reflects. Am I making any sense? I'm not always the best at finding the correct words to describe my thoughts…

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

YES! The spoiler worked. Here's 111-115.

#111 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 01:45 AM
LmL, on 17 Sept 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:
Blood of the dragon is still red, y'all. Red goes both ways , as does blue. I'm telling you. There's even a plague called the red death.    Dany's door is red - and it represents waking the dragon. "Fire red, blood red, the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign."   full disclosure: I typed "walking the dragon" instead of "waking," and I was tempted to leave it in because it conjures up a funny mental image. And now you have it. Walk you dragon, everyone, walk your dragon. They get a bit cooped up and pissy otherwise.
So, I realize it's not exactly the same thing, but now I have the "Walking the Dinosaur" song going through my head. Thanks, LmL!
Now, I may be mistaken, but isn't actual dragon blood black? At least from what I remember, I'm pretty sure that's how Drogon's blood is described.

#112 LmL
Posted Today, 03:20 AM
Lady Dyanna, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:
So, I realize it's not exactly the same thing, but now I have the "Walking the Dinosaur" song going through my head. Thanks, LmL!   Now, I may be mistaken, but isn't actual dragon blood black? At least from what I remember, I'm pretty sure that's how Drogon's blood is described.
Drogon's is black, but not the other dragons. Drogon and Balerion both us the black fire shot through with red, but not the other dragons.
Honestly I've had a hunch since the beginning that the black dragons are a different species. We know that dragons existed pre-Long Night - this is made abundantly clear in TWOIF from multiple angles. The cracking of the moon was not the true origin of dragons. But the black blood is an important symbol - it represents blood which has been either 1.) burned, or 2.) poisoned. Either way, it's corrupted blood. All fire magic transformed people have black blood, and the origin of this idea is that of the moon having blood, which has "drank the fire of the sun," creating "bloodstone" which is black (that's what the "greasy" or "oily" part of the black stones represents). As such, the idea that only black dragons have black fire and black blood indicates they are linked to those sun drinking meteors. Ergo, I wonder if the Bloodstone Emperor didn't create these "shadow fire" dragons. If you re read ASOS and ADWD, Drogon is so often noted to be set apart from the other two. He always goes off solo, he grows faster and bigger, he is the first to breathe fire, etc. George uses the analogy of the three ships named after the three dragons to emphasize this, saying "the great cog Balerion was a song of a different key" amidst talk of Drogon always being miles ahead or behind, by himself, hunting.
I don't think the BSE invented diddly squat. He's a corruptor, not a creator. GEotD has swords of pale fire (pure, hot and bright) and he had a sword which burns red (or black and red, as I would suggest). I REALLY really think that the black dragons, more than anything else, represent AA's Lightbringer. Aegon the Conqueror gives us the closest glimpse - black dragon, breathing black fire, with a rider armored in darkness (black armor with red rubies / coloring) wielding a sword of black fire.
Someone mentioned the idea or morality re: skinchanging. Varamyr uses psychic rape, and his animals hate him. The Starks do something more like the Targaryens' having put eggs in cradles next to infants - the wolf pups bond to their humans like normal pets, and we never see any of the wolves fighting the skinchanging in any way. It's actually the exact same magic - warging - but used differently.
Now consider dragon bonding - we actually see the same pattern, but with a more obvious dichotomy. The Targs in Westeros do the natural thing - the dragon has to consent. The eggs placed in cradles hatch and bond naturally to their Targs. No psychic rape. Even in TPATQ, when many try to ride the unclaimed dragons, the dragons clearly have the choice. But the Valyrians supposedly used those awful horns - THAT is absolutely mind rape, if they work anything close to as advertised. Seems like an awfully Bloodstone Emperor kind of way to control a dragon, no?
I suspect that the GEotD bonded with dragons as greenseers (or greenseers given to fire magic, redseers, whatever), with a natural process. I suspect the BSE corrupted this practice, or perhaps even to have carried out whatever freakish genetic experiments resulted in the Valyrians having the "blood of the dragon." He's the corruptor of magic, so one of these options seems thematically consistent to me.
I view the awful, slave lord Valyrians to have inherited the corrupt version of the GEotD magic. That seems an easy call. But when the Targs left Valyria (somewhat like Lot and his family), they left behind most of the Valyrian magic - sword making, fused stone construction, dragon horns, and possibly the candles as well. The candles may be different from those others, as it is based on dragonglass which is created naturally... but setting that aside, the Targs left all that behind. They came to dragon stone with 5 dragons. 100 years after the Doom, when Aegon conquered Westeros, only one of those 5 (Balerion) still existed. Two more (only two!!) were born on Dragonstone in those next 100 years, at least, only two who survived, which is quite frankly a piss poor output. And Dragonstone is supposedly the place where the Targaryens dragons grew the best (compared to the dragonpit), bur nevertheless, 2 dragons surviving to adulthood in 100 years... and dragons live past 100 unless the are killed. We don't hear of any dragon wars or death in that time, so the only conclusion is that they just didn't hatch many in that time. But as soon as the Targs take the mainland - watch out. By the time of Jaehaerys, 100 years after the conquest, there are 22 or 24 (I forget). That's a TEN FOLD increase in dragon production.
Now some might think this an author oversight, since he decided on three Targ dragons at the time of conquest way back in AGOT. But the detail that Aenar brought 5 with him was decided in TWOIAF. George could have said "they only escaped with eggs" or mentioned the plague or dragon disease which killed several dragons in the time between the Doom and the conquest. I don't believe in accident or coincidence myself when it comes to Martin, but some might. So, what is the explanation for this ten fold increase?
I suspect it has to do with Westeros itself. The weirwoods make Westeros a living continent. There is something about the interaction of dragons and Westeros itself which is important, I sense. In TWOIAF when they discuss the fused stone fortress, they ask "Why did the Valyrians never come to Westeros, since they knew how rich a land it was in gold and gems?" And also posed is the questions of why the dragonlords who built that fused stone fortress left and never came back, and also the question of what "great reversal" these pre-Valyrian dragonlords must have suffered there at Battle Isle. All of this points to one thing for me - there's something different about Westeros. We know what it is - the weirwoods. The cotf. The broken arm of Dorne, isolating the continent.
I suspect the cotf greenseer magic interacts with dragons / dragon bonding. I suspect the dragon bond is in fact a version of the skinchanging bond - there are a couple of good theories out there about this. Many speculate the ability of Bran or Bloodraven to skinchange a dragon, and I agree this is something we are supposed to consider.
If I can stop beating around the bush, let me say that I think something about the Valyrians taking possession of Westeros enabled the explosion of dragon birth. I think the Targaryens actually rediscovered the GEotD method, the non-psychi-rape method, or perhaps something closer to it. No kings blood or sacrifice was needed to hatch dragons. No horns were needed to control them. Seems pretty much on the up and up.
Dany however hatched her dragons through blood magic. And she rides a black dragon, with the black blood and shadow fire. I think that's all Bloodstone Emperor style.
Because Balerion the Black Dread was hatched in Valyria, we don't know how that "waking" went down - but I suspect blood sacrifice, certainly.
The "blood of the dragon" thing is a wrinkle - it seems to be needed to bond dragons (although this is not certain, as Nettles may or may not have dragonblood, and she tamed her dragon through food (the way you tame all wild animals). If the BSE did the genetic experiments, this implies dragons could be bonded even before and without that - skinchanging is the only method that makes sense here for the GEotD.

#113 LmL
Posted Today, 03:24 AM
Additionally, there are small signs that dragons can be used for more than war. Jorah notes that Targ dragons were bred for war, and in war they died. So... they can be bred for other purposes? It's clearly implied. Then we have tales of "wise old dragons" who love a thousand years, we have the HOTU splendor of wizards (fake undying, most likely a copy of the GEotD emperors) offering to teach Dany dragon speech. We have the example of some Targ dragons who grew tame and lazy when not made to hunt for years. All of this indicates dragons may have other forms and uses than just killing. I suspect dragons to be highly intelligent, perhaps even containing the souls of deceased dragonlords (Mithras has a cool theory about this). Perhaps the GEotD bonded with dragons for purposes of knowledge and magic, as opposed to strictly killing.
Edited by LmL, Today, 04:05 AM.

#114 Ser Knute
Posted Today, 05:09 AM
Seems there's a growing consensus that Jon's origins might be Dayne and Stark. While I don't have a problem with that, it does sort of put some of the elements of the story into question.
If Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then why were the KG guarding Lyanna at the ToJ? How do we reconcile them believing he was Blood-Royal enough (that's interesting isn't it, Blood = Red, Royal = Blue) to have the LC as well as the greatest knight in the 7K there as if he was the Heir or an Heir-to-be? Ashara and Ned? Arthur and Lyanna? I'll let that simmer for a minute.
I can see the train of thought that has the Valyrians not wanting to abandon Valyria and the 14 flames because of the immense power it brought to them, both in monetary wealth as well as in superiority in strength (Dragons, swords, magic). But as was theorized by DarkSister, the Qohor still retain the knowledge of VS smithing, to some degree (perhaps even through sacrifice/blood magic as per Maester Pol but absent the Dragonbone the Valyrians used). This then suggests that Aegon and his family weren't the only ones to survive the Doom. With its locale so close to Valyria I can see a segment of their population inhabiting that area and surviving in small numbers, albeit probably not a great many sorcerers (that eventually grew of course). I can see the logic behind dragon bone being used in the process which in turn carries an element of the personality of such within any given VS blade as well as having Dragon fire used in the forging process (to remove the highest percentage of impurities?). I'm curious though if the process involved petrifcation? What's curious if this is at-all the case is that petrifaction is usually a result of a slowed decaying process, often the result of being covered in ash (Volcanic ash perhaps?). Not that this makes the theory of forging VS wrong, but perhaps a part of it is all, but doesn't necessarily mean it was entirely due to blood magic and sacrifice. As dragons died their bones could have been recovered, saved, etc. and used in the process, and would still retain some of its original organic matter. (Apparently this isn't true according to a SSM), alas. But it could still involved in such things as weirwood bows.
https://en.wikipedia...ki/Petrifaction
But if we then take the notion that VS does have organic elements as part of the sword, that then also parallels the magic of the CoTF and the Weirwoods (those of which have petrified), as well as Dragon Eggs (Dany's) and perhaps even the Others. Dany's eggs were petrified but through a blood ritual (so far as we know) they hatched and became living beings once again; could not the process work a similar way with the Others? I think someone hypothesized a sort of kin to the CoTF as being more High-Elven, taller, etc. Could those organisms have been frozen and eventually petrified (Hardhome)? That does leave an explanation of how they were thawed (by whom or how) but it could explain the 'change' in their original organic structure.
Someone mentioned how the story seems to echo through time which is like history repeating itself. I think this is quite true and is part of the message. History can be fallible because of the 'narrower' point of view of the historian. Of course there's the strong element of the heart at struggle with itself throughout the story too.
I know LML has been putting together the remainder of his essays but until such time I find myself thinking the answer is there, the echoes have already sounded once if not more, so the answer is in the evidence to some degree, accounting for the bias of the historian(s).
What I have trouble reconciling is: if Jon is a Dayne, why would Ned bring him back other than to keep the promise to Lyanna? Would not the Daynes have first claim to him even as a bastard if such were the case (unless of course he was actually Ned's son)? Or is it that Rhaegar had Dayne blood in him via the previous Targaryen marriages? That I could understand, the blood means more than the name.
So from what LML has put forth already we have a BSE who usurps the GeoTD from the AE, which is something akin to a utopia of sorts, prosperity and peace and the like, which is our direct connection to the heart struggling with itself in a huge way as that one decision has impacted the entire world for countless generations. The obvious thought that comes to mind is, what about bringing back the balance, or maybe more accurately, what about reversing the balance?
I think if I'm getting where LML is going with this (not necessarily entirely but in general), then the AE, represented in the Drowned Goddess somehow must ultimately challenge the representation of her brother's corruption. If we take the elements associated with the BSE, Fire and Shadow, then the opposite would seem to be Ice and Light. That certainly seems to me to point toward the Others as they embody those elements. The question to me is, were there any of the AE's loyalists who escaped and if so, where to?
Perhaps I should stop here and allow for corrections on my interpretations because I'm getting a little confused as to some things. Is the end result to be a nullification of both extremes of magic? That still doesn't necessarily bring us back to the Utopian-like society of the GeoTD. Did they not use magic at all? After all they were said to be celestial bodies descended upon Planetos and eventually ascending back into the celestial heaven, as it were (or alternatively as by definition, to 'supremely good').
I cannot fathom how anyone can say GRRM is not one of the best writers ever, this is immensely deep on many levels.
Edited by Ser Knute, Today, 05:38 AM.

#115 Regular John Umber
Posted Today, 05:59 AM
Ser Knute, on 18 Sept 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:
If Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then why were the KG guarding Lyanna at the ToJ?
There's no evidence that they were. If you look at Ned's dream,there's no suggestion by the KG that they are guarding anyone, or that anyone is in the tower. Nor from Ned.
Quote
How do we reconcile them believing he was Blood-Royal enough (that's interesting isn't it, Blood = Red, Royal = Blue) to have the LC as well as the greatest knight in the 7K there as if he was the Heir or an Heir-to-be? Ashara and Ned? Arthur and Lyanna? I'll let that simmer for a minute.
There's not evidence that they believed this.
Quote
What I have trouble reconciling is: if Jon is a Dayne, why would Ned bring him back other than to keep the promise to Lyanna?
Wouldn't that be enough?
Also, bear in mind that if it turned out that bob's Rebellion was based on a falsehood - i.e. that Rhaegar has not run off with his lady - then this would throw the while cause of the Rebellion into question, and could lose Bob some support.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And 116-120. Am starting to rethink the wisdom of my promise to copy all posts. . .

#116 LmL
Posted Today, 06:11 AM
Egads. Not trying to moderate here, but if we turn this into an RLJ / ~~RLJ~~ thread, things could go downhill rather quickly. We already have 147,000 thousands versions of arguing about Lyanna at the tower and the KG oaths in the RLJ threads, and they haven't exactly gotten more interesting or more productive. We should probably just stick to the idea that "Jon Dayne" is being entertained as a possibility i this thread, without going to that bloody tower... just my opinion. Sly Wren has a great OP and convo going here, I'd hate to see it turn into ~~the worst thread on the bulletin boards~~ the R + L = J thread.
*holds breath*
Edited by LmL, Today, 06:11 AM.

#117 ASOIAF_Ali
Posted Today, 06:16 AM
Every thread that mentions Jon turns into a flaming thread about R+L=J and Jon's apparent innate specialness. <sigh>

#118 LmL
Posted Today, 06:25 AM
And just because I love the color red:
Outside, she found song of a very different sort. Rymund the Rhymer sat by the brewhouse amidst a circle of listeners, his deep voice ringing as he sang of Lord Deremond at the Bloody Meadow.
And there he stood with sword in hand,
the last of Darry’s ten …
Brienne paused to listen for a moment, broad shoulders hunched and thick arms crossed against her chest. A mob of ragged boys raced by, screeching and flailing at each other with sticks. Why do boys so love to play at war? Catelyn wondered if Rymund was the answer. The singer’s voice swelled as he neared the end of his song.
And red the grass beneath his feet,
and red his banners bright,
and red the glow of setting sun that bathed him in its light.
“Come on, come on,” the great lord called,
“my sword is hungry still.”
And with a cry of savage rage,
They swarmed across the rill …
“Fighting is better than this waiting,” Brienne said. “You don’t feel so helpless when you fight. You have a sword and a horse, sometimes an axe. When you’re armored it’s hard for anyone to hurt you.”
“Knights die in battle,” Catelyn reminded her.
Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. “As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them.”
“Children are a battle of a different sort.” Catelyn started across the yard. “A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Carrying a child, bringing it into the world … your mother will have told you of the pain …”
“I never knew my mother,” Brienne said. “My father had ladies … a different lady every year, but …”
“Those were no ladies,” Catelyn said. “As hard as birth can be, Brienne, what comes after is even harder. At times I feel as though I am being torn apart. Would that there were five of me, one for each child, so I might keep them all safe.”
(ACOK, Catelyn)
I think this is a great encapsulation of the dual nature of the Lightbringer myth, and the dual nature of blood. One half of the myth is about stabbing someone with a sword - red murder. The other is of a woman sacrificing her life to bring life into the world. And this idea runs all though out the books - the bed of blood. Fucking and fighting. Swordplay and sex, as Jaime says, Brandon Stark's "bloody sword."
We've been talking a lot about blood and red, so I thought I would leave this here for everyone to discuss.   Also noteworthy is the "beautiful" attached to the blue. That reminds me of Hugor Hill's wife, the maiden "supple was a willow with eyes like blue pools" which the maiden produced for Hugor.  Blue is beautiful!! =P

#119 LmL
Posted 35 minutes ago
Ser Knute, on 18 Sept 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:
Seems there's a growing consensus that Jon's origins might be Dayne and Stark. While I don't have a problem with that, it does sort of put some of the elements of the story into question.
If Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then why were the KG guarding Lyanna at the ToJ? How do we reconcile them believing he was Blood-Royal enough (that's interesting isn't it, Blood = Red, Royal = Blue) to have the LC as well as the greatest knight in the 7K there as if he was the Heir or an Heir-to-be? Ashara and Ned? Arthur and Lyanna? I'll let that simmer for a minute.
I can see the train of thought that has the Valyrians not wanting to abandon Valyria and the 14 flames because of the immense power it brought to them, both in monetary wealth as well as in superiority in strength (Dragons, swords, magic). But as was theorized by DarkSister, the Qohor still retain the knowledge of VS smithing, to some degree (perhaps even through sacrifice/blood magic as per Maester Pol but absent the Dragonbone the Valyrians used). This then suggests that Aegon and his family weren't the only ones to survive the Doom. With its locale so close to Valyria I can see a segment of their population inhabiting that area and surviving in small numbers, albeit probably not a great many sorcerers (that eventually grew of course). I can see the logic behind dragon bone being used in the process which in turn carries an element of the personality of such within any given VS blade as well as having Dragon fire used in the forging process (to remove the highest percentage of impurities?). I'm curious though if the process involved petrifcation? What's curious if this is at-all the case is that petrifaction is usually a result of a slowed decaying process, often the result of being covered in ash (Volcanic ash perhaps?). Not that this makes the theory of forging VS wrong, but perhaps a part of it is all, but doesn't necessarily mean it was entirely due to blood magic and sacrifice. As dragons died their bones could have been recovered, saved, etc. and used in the process, and would still retain some of its original organic matter. (Apparently this isn't true according to a SSM), alas. But it could still involved in such things as weirwood bows.
...ki/Petrifaction
But if we then take the notion that VS does have organic elements as part of the sword, that then also parallels the magic of the CoTF and the Weirwoods (those of which have petrified), as well as Dragon Eggs (Dany's) and perhaps even the Others. Dany's eggs were petrified but through a blood ritual (so far as we know) they hatched and became living beings once again; could not the process work a similar way with the Others? I think someone hypothesized a sort of kin to the CoTF as being more High-Elven, taller, etc. Could those organisms have been frozen and eventually petrified (Hardhome)? That does leave an explanation of how they were thawed (by whom or how) but it could explain the 'change' in their original organic structure.
Someone mentioned how the story seems to echo through time which is like history repeating itself. I think this is quite true and is part of the message. History can be fallible because of the 'narrower' point of view of the historian. Of course there's the strong element of the heart at struggle with itself throughout the story too.
I know LML has been putting together the remainder of his essays but until such time I find myself thinking the answer is there, the echoes have already sounded once if not more, so the answer is in the evidence to some degree, accounting for the bias of the historian(s).
What I have trouble reconciling is: if Jon is a Dayne, why would Ned bring him back other than to keep the promise to Lyanna? Would not the Daynes have first claim to him even as a bastard if such were the case (unless of course he was actually Ned's son)? Or is it that Rhaegar had Dayne blood in him via the previous Targaryen marriages? That I could understand, the blood means more than the name.
So from what LML has put forth already we have a BSE who usurps the GeoTD from the AE, which is something akin to a utopia of sorts, prosperity and peace and the like, which is our direct connection to the heart struggling with itself in a huge way as that one decision has impacted the entire world for countless generations. The obvious thought that comes to mind is, what about bringing back the balance, or maybe more accurately, what about reversing the balance?
I think if I'm getting where LML is going with this (not necessarily entirely but in general), then the AE, represented in the Drowned Goddess somehow must ultimately challenge the representation of her brother's corruption. If we take the elements associated with the BSE, Fire and Shadow, then the opposite would seem to be Ice and Light. That certainly seems to me to point toward the Others as they embody those elements. The question to me is, were there any of the AE's loyalists who escaped and if so, where to?
Perhaps I should stop here and allow for corrections on my interpretations because I'm getting a little confused as to some things. Is the end result to be a nullification of both extremes of magic? That still doesn't necessarily bring us back to the Utopian-like society of the GeoTD. Did they not use magic at all? After all they were said to be celestial bodies descended upon Planetos and eventually ascending back into the celestial heaven, as it were (or alternatively as by definition, to 'supremely good').
I cannot fathom how anyone can say GRRM is not one of the best writers ever, this is immensely deep on many levels.
Thanks for the shout-outs Ser Knute, I'm glad my ideas have you thinking, if nothing else. As for the V steel blades, I really think the magic ingredient is the black moon meteor stone. The dragon bone idea makes a lot of sense, but of course that one SSM shoots it down. But of course, that SSM is a fan correspondence and therefore not on the public record - it's not something Martin said at a con. Therefore I do think it is possible the SSM is wrong - not likely, but again, it's not something anyone else heard him say. That aside, dragon bone is hardly that hard to get your hands on. If that was the missing ingredient, the Qohorics would have figured it out, I am guessing. It's also possible you just can't do it without dragonfire, no matter how hot a forge you create, but the thing that makes me think the swords all have black meter stone in them is the fact that the steel is almost black. The hotter a forge temp, the more pure the steel produced, which means a brighter silver color. Steel forged in dragon fire should be very bright and pure. But instead, it is smoky dark.   Those moon meteors drink the light, just like Ned's sword did when Tobho tried to color it. Either Ned's sword is unique, the only sword to have moon meteor stone (in which case it is probably the original Lightbringer, an idea I like a great deal), or else any V steel would act in a similar manner if subjected to the same process. The former possibility is less likely, because it requires a great deal of subterfuge, with the Starks keeping Lightbringer locked up in the basement for thousands of years and then whipping it out and passing it off as V steel when the Targaryens started selling swords to Westeros. I think its cooler, narratively, if Ned's Ice is Lightbringer, because it is the first and MOST IMPORTANT sword we see in the books (fuck you, Dawn, you're second rate) ( , and it is the sword which has played the most prominent role in the series, and continues to do so. Logistically, though, it makes more sense if all V steel has black meteor stones and any of them can become a (dark) Lightbringer.
Bringing in the concept of the moon meters as the body of the destroyed and downed moon goddess, we can see how turning one of these dark and defiled swords into some sort of useful tool would be sweet - a bit of redemption for old Nissa Nissa moon. Another related idea I have about the moon goddess is pertaining to "the Shadow" by which Asshai sits. There is a lot of talk about shadow binding, and people's shadows, etc. Lightbringer drank NIssa's blood and soul and strength and courage... leaving only the blackened stones of her corpse...
...and her shadow. Does a moon goddess have a shadow self? Well I think the answer is yes. I've been reading some texts on alchemy, and it seems that the sun god, usually a lion, also has a shadow self, usually depicted as a dragon. Sound familiar? That's our Lion of Night, of whom Azor Ahai was an avatar. And if the sun has a shadow self, so does the moon. But where did it go?
Well, we have this big spot on the map called "The Shadow," and it is a source of dragons, fire magic, and the occult. It's always dim and dark there, natural life doesn't do well... but it is a source of magic. It's more puissant magicians are called shadowbinders. And finally, only death can pay for life - unless you are a fire magician. In that case, you can resurrect someone without killing anyone. Think about it. Who dies to resurrect Beric? He is resurrected SEVEN TIMES, and nobody dies. Only death can pay for life... except when you have a coupon from R'hllor?
What is paying for this magic? Who's death is fueling this resurrection?
The moon goddess, perhaps. Her shadow is bound to the former heart of summer. It's power can be drawn on to perform shadowbinding and resurrection rituals.
My theory about the hearts is that the heart of winter is directly tied to the ice moon and the ~~heart of summer~~ Shadow tied to the formerly existent second moon. I've argued a city the size of Asshai could only be built by a prosperous empire, not a few dark sorcerers during a nuclear winter. Also, that's just too much stone to be all meteor stone. The meteor would have needed to be so big that it would have killed everyone to provide that much stone. Instead, I think Asshai used to be healthy, but when the fire moon bit the dust, the heart of summer became shadowed and dead. Perhaps the moon's shadow being bound there is the mechanism here, but regardless, this transformation would have turned the stone of Asshai black and greasy, just like the moon meteors. It's the same magic, and the same event. Slightly different version of this idea is that Asshai was blasted by the 1 of the 3 meteors which broke into the 1,000 dragon meteor shower, essentially nuking Asshai in black blood and firestorm.
What were we talking about? Oh yes, the revenge of the fire moon. Nissa Nissa rising from the depths. Well, we have our three Targs (assuming RLJ) who may be instrumental in restoring harmony to the song. We have the sword / swords (possibly) made from the moon's corpse. What I think would really bring everyone piece is a total magic nullification, as you mentioned. Being undead is not fun, it must be said. After a while, you just want to cross over and be done with it. Beric feels this way, I can only imagine how depressed Coldhands must be, the wights don't seem happy... I bet the Others secretly want to die, too. As for the moon's shadow... it would be great to set that free, somehow. This would render Asshai harmless. How to accomplish this, though? Same goes for the heart of winter - there is some magic up there enabling wight creation and Otherness, and it needs to go.   I think I might know but the answer would eat up many more paragraphs, and I want to present that in a fully fleshed out theory.

#120 Regular John Umber
Posted 18 minutes ago
(Sorry, that was a total kneejerk reaction from me )

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And 121-125: Note that emojis aren't copying over.

#121 LmL
Posted Today, 07:30 AM
Regular John Umber, on 18 Sept 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:
(Sorry, that was a total kneejerk reaction from me )
Cool man, right on. Cause I hear you - they're valid arguments. It's just.. well you catch my meaning. We already have a thread for that, and this is one is so much more interesting.

#122 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 08:57 AM
Lady Dyanna, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:
I think that's why I'm reluctant to see the CotF as the enemy. From what I've been able to see so far, I feel as if the types of magic they use routinely are of the "non-tainted" type. It may not look pretty, but it is natural.  As Lady Barbrey and Kingmonkey before her have pointed out the whole series seems to be filled with historical echoes. I think that each echo might just fill in a different part of the story. The only problem is actually finding them all and then interpreting them properly.
Agreed--I still think something's very wrong in Bloodraven's cave. "Be the tree" is a creative instruction in modern dance class. Not a lifestyle.
But the idea that the CotF are all one evil faction--that I can't buy. No one in Martinlandia seems to work that way--pretty or not. That individual groups of Children might be venturing into darkness with Bloodraven--that's still on the table for me.
Agree on the echoes--multiple ways to pull them together. As I've stated before, I'm not very good at that. Seeing that Jon sees the sword? That I can manage. How it will all tie into a bigger picture? Well--questions like that are why I started the thread. And why reading the upcoming books will be fun.
Lady Dyanna, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:
I'm also wondering if different things might burn a different red. It seems that the tainted magic is always shadowed. And just look at Mel's blood. Corrupted fire magic has turned it black. It's no longer "healthy red." .
Yes--Martin's drawing lines between natural and unnatural life, shadow and light--and even shadowed light. So, the bolded makes a lot of sense to me. Or that the sword could simply be reflecting light, as we've discussed before.
But Ghost's eyes sometimes "burn like embers"--especially when he's protecting Jon. Seems like that red fire, the one specific to Jon and Ghost, is not corrupted. It's just part of who he/they are.

#123 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 09:12 AM
Ser Knute, on 18 Sept 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:
Seems there's a growing consensus that Jon's origins might be Dayne and Stark. While I don't have a problem with that, it does sort of put some of the elements of the story into question.
If Jon isn't the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then why were the KG guarding Lyanna at the ToJ? How do we reconcile them believing he was Blood-Royal enough (that's interesting isn't it, Blood = Red, Royal = Blue) to have the LC as well as the greatest knight in the 7K there as if he was the Heir or an Heir-to-be? Ashara and Ned? Arthur and Lyanna? I'll let that simmer for a minute.
<snip>
What I have trouble reconciling is: if Jon is a Dayne, why would Ned bring him back other than to keep the promise to Lyanna? Would not the Daynes have first claim to him even as a bastard if such were the case (unless of course he was actually Ned's son)? Or is it that Rhaegar had Dayne blood in him via the previous Targaryen marriages? That I could understand, the blood means more than the name.
On the bolded--I do think that blood, choice, and nurture are the forces Martin is playing with, not only in Jon but in all of his characters. Not exactly a profound statement on my part, but the ways those elements play together in a world where humans and magic blood clash up against each other, that does seem to interest Martin.
So, at present, I'm not sure re: Jon's parentage. I do know we can see what he's learning and how it influences him. The symbolism of his wolf, his seeing the Sword of the Morning and the power of ice, his seeing his reflection in the Wall. And his rejection of blood sacrifice--makes him very different from the otherwise highly moral Dany.
One way or another, Jon is tied to the Sword of the Morning. Tied to his identity via a true great sword, as he sees himself in Game. So, how he gets to that identity may be less important for his role. The answer to his questions of "who am I" aren't answered with a birth certificate but with a constellation. "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south."
One way or another, Ned's his de facto dad. One way or another, Jon's tied to the Sword of the Morning. I'd like it if he's tied through Rhaegar, the Targ who seemed to want to change how the Targs ruled. And, as you said, he'd get Dayne blood from Rhaegar. But that role of the Sword and the office and personal sacrifice vs blood sacrifice of others--that seems to be the key to where Jon's going. Where he'll fit in the final battles. And he can get there multiple ways--RLJ, ALJ, NAJ, etc. The end result seems like the key.
And I am now late and will have to get back to everyone's interesting comments in a few hours.

#124 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 10:49 AM
Sly Wren, on 18 Sept 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:
On the bolded--I do think that blood, choice, and nurture are the forces Martin is playing with, not only in Jon but in all of his characters. Not exactly a profound statement on my part, but the ways those elements play together in a world where humans and magic blood clash up against each other, that does seem to interest Martin.
So, at present, I'm not sure re: Jon's parentage. I do know we can see what he's learning and how it influences him. The symbolism of his wolf, his seeing the Sword of the Morning and the power of ice, his seeing his reflection in the Wall. And his rejection of blood sacrifice--makes him very different from the otherwise highly moral Dany.
One way or another, Jon is tied to the Sword of the Morning. Tied to his identity via a true great sword, as he sees himself in Game. So, how he gets to that identity may be less important for his role. The answer to his questions of "who am I" aren't answered with a birth certificate but with a constellation. "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south."
One way or another, Ned's his de facto dad. One way or another, Jon's tied to the Sword of the Morning. I'd like it if he's tied through Rhaegar, the Targ who seemed to want to change how the Targs ruled. And, as you said, he'd get Dayne blood from Rhaegar. But that role of the Sword and the office and personal sacrifice vs blood sacrifice of others--that seems to be the key to where Jon's going. Where he'll fit in the final battles. And he can get there multiple ways--RLJ, ALJ, NAJ, etc. The end result seems like the key.
And I am now late and will have to get back to everyone's interesting comments in a few hours.
I just posted the following in response to King Monkey's post on the echoes of the Tower of Joy birth. He last posted ten days ago so I don't know if he'll see it, so thought I would paste it in here as it seems pertinent to the conversation regarding sword of the morning and corruption. Still catching up on the posts of the last day or two. Actually got some work done!
Sly Wren and Lady Dyanna recommended that I read this thread, because I was talking about echoes myself and "corrupted Camelot trios" playing out the same story again and again. So glad I came and saw this - I never made these parallels at all. Bravo on an excellent post!
I do think the Tower of Joy is the most original and the dragon birth the corrupted version. One thing I'll point out here is the biblical symbolism (non-religious but I always seem to spot this). Who attends the birth of Jesus? The three Kings, sometimes called the three Magi, often read as the three "wise men". Mirri even tells Dany that maegi is just another name for "wise woman" but I think we can dispense with that particular misnomer because her blood magic practices mean she is significantly more (or less) than wise. So we're left with a Three Kings/Magi split from the Jesus story, two sides of the same coin, and I think Martin is playing with that here, in the Three Kings(guard) and the Maegi (only one but sounds plural - one would be magus).
Another symbol from the real world is the horse. In Europe, the most common myth about a horse is that it draws the chariot of the sun, and thus it is never sacrificed when seen this way. So while I think seeing the red horse as a dragon is dead on, I also see it as another corrupted version - specifically a dragon and blood magic version - of an original prophecy. We can see this story as the dragon's "son" (Rhaego or the dragons) is about to be born, or the horse's "sun" is about to be born (Jon, not solely dragon, born of a wolf line sure, but whose mother is described as "half-horse", a "centaur", whose purpose is to bring back the day after a Long Night. ) So while the red horse is sacrificed at the dragons' birth, it is taken away and safely returned at the birth of Jon, just as is Dawn to the Daynes.
It's like a twisted replacement myth based on a misinterpretation (which I consider the AA prophecy). Instead of three kings(guard) - and how many royal scions of king's lines actually die at the TOJ? - I count Hightower, Dustin, Dayne at least - in a corn king type sacrifice, willingly doing battle and willingly dying if they lose to bring on summer, we have instead at the dragons' birth an enslaved magi doing blood magic and dying horribly and unwillingly by fire when that blood magic is turned against her. Instead of the birth of a boy meant to bring back the sun (a sword of the morning), we have the birth of son-substitute dragons, a poor imitation of the sun, that on their own will never defeat the Long Night, though they might do some damage to the wights and hopefully help instead of hinder.
The real prophecy is about fire and ice combined. That's the key, I think. Not the red-black flaming sword of AA, which means dragons. Not the blue ice swords of the Others, which mean cold death. Red+Blue=Purple. Purple is the Daynes, likely the original Last Heroes (and my reading of the world book's "secret history" bears this out), and bringing back together two corrupted lines descended from them - the blue Starks and the red Targaryans - to recreate the bloodline of the original, descended from the Amethyst Empress herself, to save the people of Westeros.
I'll have to look at the other passages when I have more time to see what elements they seem to have or not. I came up blank on the 3 versus 7 or 7 versus 3. All I could think of was the Seven Against Thebes, but I don't think that's it. When Lancelot first attacked the Tower of Joy, back when it was still the Dolorous Tower before he renamed it, he did have to fight against many foes, but the numbers don't equate. There must be significance to the numbers but don't know what.
I hope this has contributed to your wonderful observations!
Give me a PM shout out if you read this and want to discuss because it has been ten days since you last posted, and I wouldn't want to miss a response!
Also, this was not in my original post, but both the red and blue in Jon's bloodline is heavily dosed with "green" of the children. I googled this, assuming that a combination of these would just be black. It is, but only in the physical sense, i.e paint colour. When they're combined as "light", however, they shine white.

Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 11:07 AM.

#125 Ser Knute
Posted Today, 11:40 AM
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:
Thanks for the shout-outs Ser Knute, I'm glad my ideas have you thinking, if nothing else. As for the V steel blades, I really think the magic ingredient is the black moon meteor stone. The dragon bone idea makes a lot of sense, but of course that one SSM shoots it down. But of course, that SSM is a fan correspondence and therefore not on the public record - it's not something Martin said at a con. Therefore I do think it is possible the SSM is wrong - not likely, but again, it's not something anyone else heard him say. That aside, dragon bone is hardly that hard to get your hands on. If that was the missing ingredient, the Qohorics would have figured it out, I am guessing. It's also possible you just can't do it without dragonfire, no matter how hot a forge you create, but the thing that makes me think the swords all have black meter stone in them is the fact that the steel is almost black. The hotter a forge temp, the more pure the steel produced, which means a brighter silver color. Steel forged in dragon fire should be very bright and pure. But instead, it is smoky dark.   Those moon meteors drink the light, just like Ned's sword did when Tobho tried to color it. Either Ned's sword is unique, the only sword to have moon meteor stone (in which case it is probably the original Lightbringer, an idea I like a great deal), or else any V steel would act in a similar manner if subjected to the same process. The former possibility is less likely, because it requires a great deal of subterfuge, with the Starks keeping Lightbringer locked up in the basement for thousands of years and then whipping it out and passing it off as V steel when the Targaryens started selling swords to Westeros. I think its cooler, narratively, if Ned's Ice is Lightbringer, because it is the first and MOST IMPORTANT sword we see in the books (fuck you, Dawn, you're second rate) ( , and it is the sword which has played the most prominent role in the series, and continues to do so. Logistically, though, it makes more sense if all V steel has black meteor stones and any of them can become a (dark) Lightbringer.
Bringing in the concept of the moon meters as the body of the destroyed and downed moon goddess, we can see how turning one of these dark and defiled swords into some sort of useful tool would be sweet - a bit of redemption for old Nissa Nissa moon. Another related idea I have about the moon goddess is pertaining to "the Shadow" by which Asshai sits. There is a lot of talk about shadow binding, and people's shadows, etc. Lightbringer drank NIssa's blood and soul and strength and courage... leaving only the blackened stones of her corpse...
...and her shadow. Does a moon goddess have a shadow self? Well I think the answer is yes. I've been reading some texts on alchemy, and it seems that the sun god, usually a lion, also has a shadow self, usually depicted as a dragon. Sound familiar? That's our Lion of Night, of whom Azor Ahai was an avatar. And if the sun has a shadow self, so does the moon. But where did it go?
Well, we have this big spot on the map called "The Shadow," and it is a source of dragons, fire magic, and the occult. It's always dim and dark there, natural life doesn't do well... but it is a source of magic. It's more puissant magicians are called shadowbinders. And finally, only death can pay for life - unless you are a fire magician. In that case, you can resurrect someone without killing anyone. Think about it. Who dies to resurrect Beric? He is resurrected SEVEN TIMES, and nobody dies. Only death can pay for life... except when you have a coupon from R'hllor?
What is paying for this magic? Who's death is fueling this resurrection?
The moon goddess, perhaps. Her shadow is bound to the former heart of summer. It's power can be drawn on to perform shadowbinding and resurrection rituals.
My theory about the hearts is that the heart of winter is directly tied to the ice moon and the ~~heart of summer~~ Shadow tied to the formerly existent second moon. I've argued a city the size of Asshai could only be built by a prosperous empire, not a few dark sorcerers during a nuclear winter. Also, that's just too much stone to be all meteor stone. The meteor would have needed to be so big that it would have killed everyone to provide that much stone. Instead, I think Asshai used to be healthy, but when the fire moon bit the dust, the heart of summer became shadowed and dead. Perhaps the moon's shadow being bound there is the mechanism here, but regardless, this transformation would have turned the stone of Asshai black and greasy, just like the moon meteors. It's the same magic, and the same event. Slightly different version of this idea is that Asshai was blasted by the 1 of the 3 meteors which broke into the 1,000 dragon meteor shower, essentially nuking Asshai in black blood and firestorm.
What were we talking about? Oh yes, the revenge of the fire moon. Nissa Nissa rising from the depths. Well, we have our three Targs (assuming RLJ) who may be instrumental in restoring harmony to the song. We have the sword / swords (possibly) made from the moon's corpse. What I think would really bring everyone piece is a total magic nullification, as you mentioned. Being undead is not fun, it must be said. After a while, you just want to cross over and be done with it. Beric feels this way, I can only imagine how depressed Coldhands must be, the wights don't seem happy... I bet the Others secretly want to die, too. As for the moon's shadow... it would be great to set that free, somehow. This would render Asshai harmless. How to accomplish this, though? Same goes for the heart of winter - there is some magic up there enabling wight creation and Otherness, and it needs to go.   I think I might know but the answer would eat up many more paragraphs, and I want to present that in a fully fleshed out theory.
Of course, I think I realized this after I posted as I continued to read I think it was Dark Sister's thread. It was funny because I had the idea that the Great Other is possibly a she, due to the 'sacrifices' of Craster's sons. But this was long before I'd seen your essays and the thought that the moon representing the female aspect was destroyed. If the premise is on the right track, she could possibly be representative of Ice/Light. A few posts down from his OP was a post postulating that the AE herself fled to the LoaW. Now I'm not sure if that's where your essays are going but it's an interesting concept. The only thing that bothers me is I have this feeling the Others aren't just looking to seek-out BSE supporters and wipe them out and then... what? Commit seppuku? That's not to say that an entity that represents goodness and all that comes with it can't be militaristic, but I have to wonder what constitutes victory, and then what do the Others do 'after' that? However, if this notion is along the right lines, I can see that because of GRRM's warning that the end will be bittersweet. So perhaps if the embodiment of the source of those magics were destroyed in tandem, the world would be set free and conscience would then be the determining factor rather than magics? Am I way off base here?
I realize as the poster prior said that we have no real proof the KG were there and that their purpose was Jon, and I don't want to derail the thread either, I was just considering if that were true, it might make a lot of that 'recollection' almost pointless. The other thing that occurred to me is: I can see the Targaryens having their dragon dreams, especially if we consider that elements of a soul can last and carry on as it were (while it was mostly associated with Dragons into their VS swords, I thought too that it's possible the BSE and his followers' souls would partly carry over into their offspring and multiplied thusly. This fits in with the dragon dreams and even their wild imaginations of manifesting into dragons themselves (although I might argue it was the reverse, originally dragons manifested into humans while retaining memories of the dragon). Your point about the bones remembering certainly leads to this needing to be considered. This also ties back to the Weirwoods and their memories. If we agree on the idea that Greenseers were an amalgamation of the previous greenseers and the previous histories etc. it even further lends to the idea that souls live on (all of the bones inside BR's cave) in their bones, at least for a time, some of that seems to get a little muddy.
So perhaps the culmination is about nullifying the magical aspect such that utter destruction is avoided or averted on that front and at that point the only thing left is choice, rather than non-choice, as we might say in the case of wights and maybe even dragons, though I have to keep open to the notion that they can/could be trained for non-war uses. Jon seems to be our living manifestation of that choice. Fight he will, but he doesn't seem to want to have magic as some sort of ace-in-the-hole, because after all, magic can corrupt.
It creates a ton of ironies as you point out; the Ironborn thinking theirs is a male aspected god. That Mel thinks the Great Other is the anti-life deity, etc. Have to admit if she did escape and settle in the LoaW and then sort of corrupted herself with the ice magics in order to counter her brother's fire and shadow magics, it was a smart move and seems to have at least bought her some time.
I tend to agree with you about Asshai, don't believe it's all meteor stone, certainly at least as-is, it's been crafted, who'd expect a meteor to have such smooth sides and be shaped into such nice angles? I wonder though, if it indeed was the heart of summer? I'm more inclined to think at the moment that Asshai was perhaps chosen as a new seat for the BSE and as he and his followers became more and more corrupted through sorcery Asshai ended up being as it's described today, possibly too with the Loaw. Sure it's cold at the poles, but until we see it, we don't know how 'corrupted' it might possibly be compared with Asshai.
Interesting point too about Beric. If only Death can pay for Life, who died to pay for his resurrection? Or is he undead and being undead doesn't necessarily count? His sense of self is faded, he doesn't seem to remember he was betrothed, he just has this primary memory of his last order, which he follows blindly. It suggests the soul never being freed, a slave unto the magic that 'created' it/him/her and that's not a pleasant thought.
Even if I'm wrong on some fundamentals or elements there of, it's been good information, great food for thought and a fresh new way to look at the series from a differing perspective. My favorites have been Dany, Tyrion and Jon. I like a ton of characters don't get me wrong, even Jaime, but the 3 have held the majority of my interest and in this new light, it doesn't look good for Dany. Not that it looks good for Jon either if my suspicions end up being correct... bittersweet indeed.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And 126-130.

#126 Ser Knute
Posted Today, 11:51 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:
I just posted the following in response to King Monkey's post on the echoes of the Tower of Joy birth. He last posted ten days ago so I don't know if he'll see it, so thought I would paste it in here as it seems pertinent to the conversation regarding sword of the morning and corruption. Still catching up on the posts of the last day or two. Actually got some work done!
Sly Wren and Lady Dyanna recommended that I read this thread, because I was talking about echoes myself and "corrupted Camelot trios" playing out the same story again and again. So glad I came and saw this - I never made these parallels at all. Bravo on an excellent post!
I do think the Tower of Joy is the most original and the dragon birth the corrupted version. One thing I'll point out here is the biblical symbolism (non-religious but I always seem to spot this). Who attends the birth of Jesus? The three Kings, sometimes called the three Magi, often read as the three "wise men". Mirri even tells Dany that maegi is just another name for "wise woman" but I think we can dispense with that particular misnomer because her blood magic practices mean she is significantly more (or less) than wise. So we're left with a Three Kings/Magi split from the Jesus story, two sides of the same coin, and I think Martin is playing with that here, in the Three Kings(guard) and the Maegi (only one but sounds plural - one would be magus).
Another symbol from the real world is the horse. In Europe, the most common myth about a horse is that it draws the chariot of the sun, and thus it is never sacrificed when seen this way. So while I think seeing the red horse as a dragon is dead on, I also see it as another corrupted version - specifically a dragon and blood magic version - of an original prophecy. We can see this story as the dragon's "son" (Rhaego or the dragons) is about to be born, or the horse's "sun" is about to be born (Jon, not solely dragon, born of a wolf line sure, but whose mother is described as "half-horse", a "centaur", whose purpose is to bring back the day after a Long Night. ) So while the red horse is sacrificed at the dragons' birth, it is taken away and safely returned at the birth of Jon, just as is Dawn to the Daynes.
It's like a twisted replacement myth based on a misinterpretation (which I consider the AA prophecy). Instead of three kings(guard) - and how many royal scions of king's lines actually die at the TOJ? - I count Hightower, Dustin, Dayne at least - in a corn king type sacrifice, willingly doing battle and willingly dying if they lose to bring on summer, we have instead at the dragons' birth an enslaved magi doing blood magic and dying horribly and unwillingly by fire when that blood magic is turned against her. Instead of the birth of a boy meant to bring back the sun (a sword of the morning), we have the birth of son-substitute dragons, a poor imitation of the sun, that on their own will never defeat the Long Night, though they might do some damage to the wights and hopefully help instead of hinder.
The real prophecy is about fire and ice combined. That's the key, I think. Not the red-black flaming sword of AA, which means dragons. Not the blue ice swords of the Others, which mean cold death. Red+Blue=Purple. Purple is the Daynes, likely the original Last Heroes (and my reading of the world book's "secret history" bears this out), and bringing back together two corrupted lines descended from them - the blue Starks and the red Targaryans - to recreate the bloodline of the original, descended from the Amethyst Empress herself, to save the people of Westeros.
I'll have to look at the other passages when I have more time to see what elements they seem to have or not. I came up blank on the 3 versus 7 or 7 versus 3. All I could think of was the Seven Against Thebes, but I don't think that's it. When Lancelot first attacked the Tower of Joy, back when it was still the Dolorous Tower before he renamed it, he did have to fight against many foes, but the numbers don't equate. There must be significance to the numbers but don't know what.
I hope this has contributed to your wonderful observations!
Give me a PM shout out if you read this and want to discuss because it has been ten days since you last posted, and I wouldn't want to miss a response!
Also, this was not in my original post, but both the red and blue in Jon's bloodline is heavily dosed with "green" of the children. I googled this, assuming that a combination of these would just be black. It is, but only in the physical sense, i.e paint colour. When they're combined as "light", however, they shine white.
I think this is a good addition to the ideas presented, helps bring clarity to the end result even if the how-did-we-really-get-there part is still somewhat a mystery.

#127 LmL
Posted Today, 01:08 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:
snippity   It's like a twisted replacement myth based on a misinterpretation (which I consider the AA prophecy). Instead of three kings(guard) - and how many royal scions of king's lines actually die at the TOJ? - I count Hightower, Dustin, Dayne at least - in a corn king type sacrifice, willingly doing battle and willingly dying if they lose to bring on summer, we have instead at the dragons' birth an enslaved magi doing blood magic and dying horribly and unwillingly by fire when that blood magic is turned against her. Instead of the birth of a boy meant to bring back the sun (a sword of the morning), we have the birth of son-substitute dragons, a poor imitation of the sun, that on their own will never defeat the Long Night, though they might do some damage to the wights and hopefully help instead of hinder.    The real prophecy is about fire and ice combined. That's the key, I think. Not the red-black flaming sword of AA, which means dragons. Not the blue ice swords of the Others, which mean cold death. Red+Blue=Purple. Purple is the Daynes, likely the original Last Heroes (and my reading of the world book's "secret history" bears this out), and bringing back together two corrupted lines descended from them - the blue Starks and the red Targaryans - to recreate the bloodline of the original, descended from the Amethyst Empress herself, to save the people of Westeros.    I'll have to look at the other passages when I have more time to see what elements they seem to have or not. I came up blank on the 3 versus 7 or 7 versus 3. All I could think of was the Seven Against Thebes, but I don't think that's it. When Lancelot first attacked the Tower of Joy, back when it was still the Dolorous Tower before he renamed it, he did have to fight against many foes, but the numbers don't equate. There must be significance to the numbers but don't know what.   I hope this has contributed to your wonderful observations!   Give me a PM shout out if you read this and want to discuss because it has been ten days since you last posted, and I wouldn't want to miss a response!   Also, this was not in my original post, but both the red and blue in Jon's bloodline is heavily dosed with "green" of the children. I googled this, assuming that a combination of these would just be black. It is, but only in the physical sense, i.e paint colour. When they're combined as "light", however, they shine white.
I just wanted to chime in and say that this is exactly what I was referring to when I called Dawn and the Daynes a "museum piece," and "formula." If RLJ is true, then Jon is a reconstructed Dayne. He's built with the same formula. I just think this makes a lot more sense than "Jon Dayne" or the idea that Dawn is going to journey from Starfall to the Wall in time for the climax.
I'll refer back to my comments about the a last Hero and the sigils of the two squires who picked up Lightbringer after Stannis thrust it into the damp earth. A white and purple knight, crossing swords, and the black ship / white onion (moon) of House Seaworth, plus the newer fiery heart sigil of Stannis and R'hllor. I'm sure it means something, especially the House Farring sigil.

#128 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 01:24 PM
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:
I just wanted to chime in and say that this is exactly what I was referring to when I called Dawn and the Daynes a "museum piece," and "formula." If RLJ is true, then Jon is a reconstructed Dayne. He's built with the same formula. I just think this makes a lot more sense than "Jon Dayne" or the idea that Dawn is going to journey from Starfall to the Wall in time for the climax.  I'll refer back to my comments about the a last Hero and the sigils of the two squires who picked up Lightbringer after Stannis thrust it into the damp earth. A white and purple knight, crossing swords, and the black ship / white onion (moon) of House Seaworth, plus the newer fiery heart sigil of Stannis and R'hllor. I'm sure it means something, especially the House Farring sigil.
Yes, I do agree the Daynes could be exactly that. Left over from the Age of Heroes. However, we still have a few Dayne players, one a kid and one a Mordred figure, granted. Arthur was likely very aware of what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in fulfillment of the prophecy; he probably had the lore in the first place if this was about prophecy rather than politics or love. Why wouldn't he make sure Dawn went to Jon if Jon was going to become the next sword of the morning. I want Jon to have that sword. Darkstar is going to be pissed if Jon gets that sword.

#129 Lady Barbrey
Posted 55 minutes ago
Ser Knute, on 18 Sept 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:
Of course, I think I realized this after I posted as I continued to read I think it was Dark Sister's thread. It was funny because I had the idea that the Great Other is possibly a she, due to the 'sacrifices' of Craster's sons. But this was long before I'd seen your essays and the thought that the moon representing the female aspect was destroyed. If the premise is on the right track, she could possibly be representative of Ice/Light. A few posts down from his OP was a post postulating that the AE herself fled to the LoaW. Now I'm not sure if that's where your essays are going but it's an interesting concept. The only thing that bothers me is I have this feeling the Others aren't just looking to seek-out BSE supporters and wipe them out and then... what? Commit seppuku? That's not to say that an entity that represents goodness and all that comes with it can't be militaristic, but I have to wonder what constitutes victory, and then what do the Others do 'after' that? However, if this notion is along the right lines, I can see that because of GRRM's warning that the end will be bittersweet. So perhaps if the embodiment of the source of those magics were destroyed in tandem, the world would be set free and conscience would then be the determining factor rather than magics? Am I way off base here?
I realize as the poster prior said that we have no real proof the KG were there and that their purpose was Jon, and I don't want to derail the thread either, I was just considering if that were true, it might make a lot of that 'recollection' almost pointless. The other thing that occurred to me is: I can see the Targaryens having their dragon dreams, especially if we consider that elements of a soul can last and carry on as it were (while it was mostly associated with Dragons into their VS swords, I thought too that it's possible the BSE and his followers' souls would partly carry over into their offspring and multiplied thusly. This fits in with the dragon dreams and even their wild imaginations of manifesting into dragons themselves (although I might argue it was the reverse, originally dragons manifested into humans while retaining memories of the dragon). Your point about the bones remembering certainly leads to this needing to be considered. This also ties back to the Weirwoods and their memories. If we agree on the idea that Greenseers were an amalgamation of the previous greenseers and the previous histories etc. it even further lends to the idea that souls live on (all of the bones inside BR's cave) in their bones, at least for a time, some of that seems to get a little muddy.
So perhaps the culmination is about nullifying the magical aspect such that utter destruction is avoided or averted on that front and at that point the only thing left is choice, rather than non-choice, as we might say in the case of wights and maybe even dragons, though I have to keep open to the notion that they can/could be trained for non-war uses. Jon seems to be our living manifestation of that choice. Fight he will, but he doesn't seem to want to have magic as some sort of ace-in-the-hole, because after all, magic can corrupt.
It creates a ton of ironies as you point out; the Ironborn thinking theirs is a male aspected god. That Mel thinks the Great Other is the anti-life deity, etc. Have to admit if she did escape and settle in the LoaW and then sort of corrupted herself with the ice magics in order to counter her brother's fire and shadow magics, it was a smart move and seems to have at least bought her some time.
I tend to agree with you about Asshai, don't believe it's all meteor stone, certainly at least as-is, it's been crafted, who'd expect a meteor to have such smooth sides and be shaped into such nice angles? I wonder though, if it indeed was the heart of summer? I'm more inclined to think at the moment that Asshai was perhaps chosen as a new seat for the BSE and as he and his followers became more and more corrupted through sorcery Asshai ended up being as it's described today, possibly too with the Loaw. Sure it's cold at the poles, but until we see it, we don't know how 'corrupted' it might possibly be compared with Asshai.
Interesting point too about Beric. If only Death can pay for Life, who died to pay for his resurrection? Or is he undead and being undead doesn't necessarily count? His sense of self is faded, he doesn't seem to remember he was betrothed, he just has this primary memory of his last order, which he follows blindly. It suggests the soul never being freed, a slave unto the magic that 'created' it/him/her and that's not a pleasant thought.
Even if I'm wrong on some fundamentals or elements there of, it's been good information, great food for thought and a fresh new way to look at the series from a differing perspective. My favorites have been Dany, Tyrion and Jon. I like a ton of characters don't get me wrong, even Jaime, but the 3 have held the majority of my interest and in this new light, it doesn't look good for Dany. Not that it looks good for Jon either if my suspicions end up being correct... bittersweet indeed.
I agree both powers should be nullified at the same time. They're too dangerous one at a time, one going full on out of control if the other gets too thin or vanishes. Do you know the story of the white and red dragon? They fought dreadfully and the whole country disintegrated from it. Some smart fellow figured out where they usually landed after they fought, dug a pit, filled it with mead, so when the dragons landed they fell into the pit, got drunk on the mead and fell asleep quite happily until Merlin came along hundreds of years later. Merlin was a bastard boy King Vortigern was going to sacrifice at the foundations of his castle to stabilize them because they kept shifting. Merlin told him about the dragons and interpreted their fighting to the King when they were released. One killed the other. These are the white dragon of England and the red dragon of Wales (or vice versa can't remember). I think Martin might use something like this in his story,not literally of course, but somehow suffocating the two magics at the same time. This rings true on the level of bastard boy, white and red dragons, sacrifice for foundation-building themes too.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, 51 minutes ago.

#130 LmL
Posted 24 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:
Yes, I do agree the Daynes could be exactly that. Left over from the Age of Heroes. However, we still have a few Dayne players, one a kid and one a Mordred figure, granted. Arthur was likely very aware of what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in fulfillment of the prophecy; he probably had the lore in the first place if this was about prophecy rather than politics or love. Why wouldn't he make sure Dawn went to Jon if Jon was going to become the next sword of the morning. I want Jon to have that sword. Darkstar is going to be pissed if Jon gets that sword.
Definitely possible. My hunch is what I said above, but that's only a hunch and not based on any kind of text interpretation.
I proposed Darkstar stealing the sword as a mechanism for Dawn to re-enter the fray (or enter the Frey, if that's convenient.. those Freys are due "receive" some swords) back a few essays ago, so I'm on to that idea. The Arthurian parallels suggest Edric and Darkstar may play at least a tangential role. Clearly if anyone will wield Dawn, it will be Jon, not one of those two, regardless of Jons parentage.
We agree that at least symbolically, Jon seems to be the new sword of the morning.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And 131-135.

#131 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 02:36 PM
Ser Knute, on 18 Sept 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:
<snip.
Perhaps I should stop here and allow for corrections on my interpretations because I'm getting a little confused as to some things. Is the end result to be a nullification of both extremes of magic? That still doesn't necessarily bring us back to the Utopian-like society of the GeoTD. Did they not use magic at all? After all they were said to be celestial bodies descended upon Planetos and eventually ascending back into the celestial heaven, as it were (or alternatively as by definition, to 'supremely good').
I cannot fathom how anyone can say GRRM is not one of the best writers ever, this is immensely deep on many levels.
Okay--I have a few minutes and can get back to catching up.
I'm with you on this--not sure what the end result is. A nullification of magic seems unworkable since magic seems to be part of the landscape--"song of the earth"--and biology of people--blood magic. So, seems more like people are dealing with the problems blood magics have wrought. Not to mention the political messes.
As for a utopia--I may be cynical, but I've got a hard time buying that as possible in Martinlandia. The stories of the GEofD are ancient, ancient stories. No way it was all that super-spectacular-fabulous. Plus, after the Long Night--no Utopia. Closet was the Valyrian Empire--built on slavery and blood magic.
So, as I said--best guess: deal with the nightmares wrought by blood magics. Defeat them--for now. And hopefully Sam will figure out something better to write it all down on than fallible parchment or rune stones. For the next time.

#132 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 02:48 PM
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:
If I can stop beating around the bush, let me say that I think something about the Valyrians taking possession of Westeros enabled the explosion of dragon birth. I think the Targaryens actually rediscovered the GEotD method, the non-psychi-rape method, or perhaps something closer to it. No kings blood or sacrifice was needed to hatch dragons. No horns were needed to control them. Seems pretty much on the up and up.
Dany however hatched her dragons through blood magic. And she rides a black dragon, with the black blood and shadow fire. I think that's all Bloodstone Emperor style.
Maybe--but that raises the question of why the Valyrians didn't come west much, much sooner. Why Westeros seems to have been a haven of sorts (the Rhoynar) when it's only protected by a narrow sea (big body of water, but still--not a force-field).
And, if the Targs were "on the up and up"--what failed? When did they "fall?" They seem to have remembered "fire and blood" if he theories about Summerhall are even close to correct. And Dany's moment with the dragons is transcendent in her realization of what to do--ie: "welcome to dragons, Dany. This IS how it's done."
Dragons just seem to be "fire and blood"--per se.
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:
I think this is a great encapsulation of the dual nature of the Lightbringer myth, and the dual nature of blood. One half of the myth is about stabbing someone with a sword - red murder. The other is of a woman sacrificing her life to bring life into the world. And this idea runs all though out the books - the bed of blood. Fucking and fighting. Swordplay and sex, as Jaime says, Brandon Stark's "bloody sword."
I like this! As I said to superunknown5 above, when I looked for swords and blood, the only positive instance I could find (though I was looking fast) was the Jaime and Arthur incident. Blood as self-sacrifice and "devotion" to protect life--has at least a few parallels to childbirth (thought Jaime's bloody knees and little cut on the shoulder are NOT equivalent to labor. Just saying).
And am again out of time. . .
Edited by Sly Wren, Yesterday, 02:50 PM.

#133 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 02:53 PM
Sly Wren, on 18 Sept 2015 - 1:36 PM, said:
Okay--I have a few minutes and can get back to catching up.   I'm with you on this--not sure what the end result is. A nullification of magic seems unworkable since magic seems to be part of the landscape--"song of the earth"--and biology of people--blood magic. So, seems more like people are dealing with the problems blood magics have wrought. Not to mention the political messes.   As for a utopia--I may be cynical, but I've got a hard time buying that as possible in Martinlandia. The stories of the GEofD are ancient, ancient stories. No way it was all that super-spectacular-fabulous. Plus, after the Long Night--no Utopia. Closet was the Valyrian Empire--built on slavery and blood magic.   So, as I said--best guess: deal with the nightmares wrought by blood magics. Defeat them--for now. And hopefully Sam will figure out something better to write it all down on than fallible parchment or rune stones. For the next time.
I think that the celestial LN disaster was the bifurcation of greenseer magic into red and blue magic, ice and fire undead creatures. Before this I think it was just greenseer magic, though I am not sure. So, the "no magic" ending might just be the neutralization of ice and fire perversions, leaving just the earth magic again.
Before, the ice and fire moon (hypothesis of course) were both safely in the sky, and tied to the heart of winter and summer, and the seasons were in balance. Then, the fire moon is exploded, corrupted, and sent to earth. Think about the black meteors as a parasitic, corrupt occupying force on earth. Something happened to the ice moon too, but I'm saving that for a future essay. So basically, we need to free the earth of this corruption, or neutralize it. How to do this? That's a damn good question. I have a feeling the comet returning to hit the ice moon (hypothesis) is going to be a part of it, as is the destruction of the Wall.

#134 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 02:57 PM
Sly Wren, on 18 Sept 2015 - 1:48 PM, said:
Maybe--but that raises the question of why the Valyrians didn't come west much, much sooner. Why Westeros seems to have been a haven of sorts (the Rhoynar) when it's only protected by a narrow sea (big body of water, but still--not a force-field).   And, if the Targs were "on the up and up"--what failed? When did they "fall?" They seem to have remembered "fire and blood" if he theories about Summerhall are even close to correct. And Dany's moment with the dragons is transcendent in her realization of what to do--ie: "welcome to dragons, Dany. This IS how it's done."   Dragons just seem to be "fire and blood"--per se.   I like this! As I said to superunknown5 above, when I looked for swords and blood, the only positive instance I could find (though I was looking fast) was the Jaime and Arthur incident. Blood as self-sacrifice and "devotion" to protect life--has at least a few parallels to childbirth (thought Jaime's bloody knees and little cut on the shoulder are NOT equivalent to labor. Just saying).   And am again out of time. . .
I've said it before, so at the risk of repeating myself, everyone needs to read Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer, which clearly establishes the dual "procreation & sacrifice / murder & betrayal" interpretation of the Lightbringer myth. I'm standing on his shoulders here.
Notice that the nobler uses of swords involve the sword serving as a torch or a shield. Dayne and the KG is all about protecting and guarding. The light in the darkness implies illumination as the most important function.

#135 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 06:21 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:Spoiler
Very cool stuff! I'm still trying to work through what to make of the parallels between the tower and the tent.
But for all of the potential sacrifice imagery around the tower (and the ways it parallels with the tent), really seems like the tower might have been unintended blood sacrifice. What I mean is, it's not a ritual the way Mirri's is. The KG at the tower are KG, talking about their king. How they would have saved him. How they would have stopped the Usurper and the sales brother. They are the true brothers, the true KG. The tent ritual--everyone thinks it's a abomination. Even Dany cries out that the price is too high. The tower--Ned thinks of the greatness of the men. Associates it with the fight outside the brothel. A waste of good men. But still--a sacrifice.
Back to Arthur: blood is the seal of their devotion in this scene. So, not dying as ritual to raise a king. Fighting for honor. And that sacrifice--how much power did it have? The Sword of the Morning is only held by one man at a time--does the way Arthur died tie into how the office might pass to Jon? It seems to tie into how Ned thought of Arthur. Am once again wondering how much Ned actually knew. . .
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:
Yes, I do agree the Daynes could be exactly that. Left over from the Age of Heroes. However, we still have a few Dayne players, one a kid and one a Mordred figure, granted. Arthur was likely very aware of what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in fulfillment of the prophecy; he probably had the lore in the first place if this was about prophecy rather than politics or love. Why wouldn't he make sure Dawn went to Jon if Jon was going to become the next sword of the morning. I want Jon to have that sword. Darkstar is going to be pissed if Jon gets that sword.
Agreed. And it also makes sense to me that Rhaegar and Arthur might have talked about that sword and its history.
The sword and the Wall predate Valyrian steel. They go together in Jon's "revelation." Really think they go together in "reality," too. Pissing off Darkstar--very much a bonus.
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 1:57 PM, said:
I've said it before, so at the risk of repeating myself, everyone needs to read Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer, which clearly establishes the dual "procreation & sacrifice / murder & betrayal" interpretation of the Lightbringer myth. I'm standing on his shoulders here.  Notice that the nobler uses of swords involve the sword serving as a torch or a shield. Dayne and the KG is all about protecting and guarding. The light in the darkness implies illumination as the most important function.
1. Yup on Schmendrick. Very good for getting the brain going, too.
2. Yup!!! Dawn is the sword. The Wall is the shield. Working together. And in his dream/nightmare, Jon calls for more fire.
"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
All of the men say this together--working as one to be a sword, a torch, and a shield. Like the KG should be. Like the NW. Then, and only then (I think) does night end. The light that brings the dawn.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

And now 136-140.

#136 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 06:30 PM
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 1:53 PM, said:
I think that the celestial LN disaster was the bifurcation of greenseer magic into red and blue magic, ice and fire undead creatures. Before this I think it was just greenseer magic, though I am not sure. So, the "no magic" ending might just be the neutralization of ice and fire perversions, leaving just the earth magic again.  Before, the ice and fire moon (hypothesis of course) were both safely in the sky, and tied to the heart of winter and summer, and the seasons were in balance. Then, the fire moon is exploded, corrupted, and sent to earth. Think about the black meteors as a parasitic, corrupt occupying force on earth. Something happened to the ice moon too, but I'm saving that for a future essay. So basically, we need to free the earth of this corruption, or neutralize it. How to do this? That's a damn good question. I have a feeling the comet returning to hit the ice moon (hypothesis) is going to be a part of it, as is the destruction of the Wall.
I've thought about the "just earth magic" thing, too. Problem is, you still have humans. With blood (for blood rituals) and power-lust. And all of the stories still in place about the power. Can't see how it can be shut off entirely.
Seems like with the stories from the World Book that you've analyzed in fantastic detail all tell of a world fallen. Like Tokien's world falls--still glorious, but less. Basic Judeo-Christiam myth, too. Or Arthuriana--the fall of Camelot--even Arthur's "prophesied" return can't "fix" that.
So, a restoration seems beyond Herculean. All that black rock is only part of the problem--still have all the humans. Seems like this will be part of the cycle again. If there was one big baddie left (Sauron), maybe it would work. But even killing the last of the dragons and Targs (poor Dany) would get rid of only part problem. The rest of the problems remain. Martin seems to have set up a fallen world, unlikely to get back to "balance."
The Sword of the Morning constellation has been hanging in the south for millennia. Like Dawn at Starfall. Waiting. Seems like it and the Wall may be waiting again after all of this. Maybe.

#137 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 08:11 PM
Sly Wren, on 18 Sept 2015 - 5:21 PM, said:
Very cool stuff! I'm still trying to work through what to make of the parallels between the tower and the tent.    But for all of the potential sacrifice imagery around the tower (and the ways it parallels with the tent), really seems like the tower might have been unintended blood sacrifice. What I mean is, it's not a ritual the way Mirri's is. The KG at the tower are KG, talking about their king. How they would have saved him. How they would have stopped the Usurper and the sales brother. They are the true brothers, the true KG. The tent ritual--everyone thinks it's a abomination. Even Dany cries out that the price is too high. The tower--Ned thinks of the greatness of the men. Associates it with the fight outside the brothel. A waste of good men. But still--a sacrifice.   Back to Arthur: blood is the seal of their devotion in this scene. So, not dying as ritual to raise a king. Fighting for honor. And that sacrifice--how much power did it have? The Sword of the Morning is only held by one man at a time--does the way Arthur died tie into how the office might pass to Jon? It seems to tie into how Ned thought of Arthur. Am once again wondering how much Ned actually knew. . .    Agreed. And it also makes sense to me that Rhaegar and Arthur might have talked about that sword and its history.   The sword and the Wall predate Valyrian steel. They go together in Jon's "revelation." Really think they go together in "reality," too. Pissing off Darkstar--very much a bonus.   1. Yup on Schmendrick. Very good for getting the brain going, too.   2. Yup!!! Dawn is the sword. The Wall is the shield. Working together. And in his dream/nightmare, Jon calls for more fire.   "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."   All of the men say this together--working as one to be a sword, a torch, and a shield. Like the KG should be. Like the NW. Then, and only then (I think) does night end. The light that brings the dawn.
I like you observation here about the wall serving as all three. Nice job.
As for v steel... AA's sword WAS V steel before v steel was v steel.

#138 Lady Barbrey
Posted Yesterday, 10:02 PM
Sly Wren, on 18 Sept 2015 - 5:21 PM, said:
Very cool stuff! I'm still trying to work through what to make of the parallels between the tower and the tent.
But for all of the potential sacrifice imagery around the tower (and the ways it parallels with the tent), really seems like the tower might have been unintended blood sacrifice. What I mean is, it's not a ritual the way Mirri's is. The KG at the tower are KG, talking about their king. How they would have saved him. How they would have stopped the Usurper and the sales brother. They are the true brothers, the true KG. The tent ritual--everyone thinks it's a abomination. Even Dany cries out that the price is too high. The tower--Ned thinks of the greatness of the men. Associates it with the fight outside the brothel. A waste of good men. But still--a sacrifice.
Back to Arthur: blood is the seal of their devotion in this scene. So, not dying as ritual to raise a king. Fighting for honor. And that sacrifice--how much power did it have? The Sword of the Morning is only held by one man at a time--does the way Arthur died tie into how the office might pass to Jon? It seems to tie into how Ned thought of Arthur. Am once again wondering how much Ned actually knew. . .
Agreed. And it also makes sense to me that Rhaegar and Arthur might have talked about that sword and its history.
The sword and the Wall predate Valyrian steel. They go together in Jon's "revelation." Really think they go together in "reality," too. Pissing off Darkstar--very much a bonus.
1. Yup on Schmendrick. Very good for getting the brain going, too.
2. Yup!!! Dawn is the sword. The Wall is the shield. Working together. And in his dream/nightmare, Jon calls for more fire.
"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
All of the men say this together--working as one to be a sword, a torch, and a shield. Like the KG should be. Like the NW. Then, and only then (I think) does night end. The light that brings the dawn.
But let's not forget the horn, watcher and the fire. Who or what are the most obvious here? I am the watcher on the Walls (I think the Watcher has to be Bran). I am the fire that burns against the cold (most obvious here woud be Dany and her dragons - and the NW is aimed at ICE not fire so she would be helpful in this fight). I am the light that brings the dawn (Jon and the Sword of the Morning). I am the horn that wakes the sleepers (We don't yet know who the sleepers are because they're ... sleeping. My suspects are the Kings of Winter in their crypts, leviathans of the seas, giants from stone, or maybe a call to these and all COTF things, wolves, etc.people with latent skinchanging like Sweetrobin? - an army for the dawn? Sam or Tyrion will blow this horn). I am the shield that guards the realms of men (Wall of course, but there might be a personification here I'm not seeing). Are these the five core brothers of the first Night's Watch. And Jon can fulfill all of these roles too but perhaps he's meant to lead them?

#139 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
LmL, on 18 Sept 2015 - 7:11 PM, said:
I like you observation here about the wall serving as all three. Nice job.  As for v steel... AA's sword WAS V steel before v steel was v steel.
Very true.
Lady Barbrey, on 18 Sept 2015 - 9:02 PM, said:
But let's not forget the horn, watcher and the fire. Who or what are the most obvious here? I am the watcher on the Walls (I think the Watcher has to be Bran). I am the fire that burns against the cold (most obvious here woud be Dany and her dragons - and the NW is aimed at ICE not fire so she would be helpful in this fight). I am the light that brings the dawn (Jon and the Sword of the Morning). I am the horn that wakes the sleepers (We don't yet know who the sleepers are because they're ... sleeping. My suspects are the Kings of Winter in their crypts, leviathans of the seas, giants from stone, or maybe a call to these and all COTF things, wolves, etc.people with latent skinchanging like Sweetrobin? - an army for the dawn? Sam or Tyrion will blow this horn). I am the shield that guards the realms of men (Wall of course, but there might be a personification here I'm not seeing). Are these the five core brothers of the first Night's Watch. And Jon can fulfill all of these roles too but perhaps he's meant to lead them?
1. I can see the Watcher as being Bran--but seems like the Watcher might be all watchers watching together. As long as the men of the Watch stay true, the Wall holds. "Stay true"--work together? Focus on the right things? Willing to sacrifice for others? That's my guess on Martinlandia's ethics. The wolf-pack. A unified body. Have speculated elsewhere that the watch might once have been on walls--plural. That going to the Wall might have been a limited term of service. Rotating men in and out. While the rest of the North watched from castle walls (plural)--maybe. Fits with Jon's insistence that they are all in this together.
2. Fire--could be Dany. Would love to see her help in that fight, not get Drogon killed trying to take over King's Landing. But I'm not sure. Jon calls for fire in his nightmare--so, fire definitely part of the equation.
3. Horn--I'll admit I'm stumped on this. I like the theory about the horn's creating earthquakes--though I can't see how earthquakes would help with ice demons.
Waking the old ones--might explain the crypts in Winterfell and the Barrowlands. Calling everything together. Unifying the living and the dead against the undead--is that what you were getting at, or am I stomping all over your point like an idiot? If it is about the dead, would possibly tie in with Jon's dreams of the underworld. And even Sansa's underworld-ish moment at the Eyrie.
Am also thinking of the theory that Grey Wind might be alive--Frey's exaggerated. If that were the case--Robb rejoining the pack as Grey Wind would be the dead fighting with the living. But that's probably wishful thinking.
4. I do think Jon's at least one of the leaders. Can't do this alone--this isn't a conquering, but a defense. They have to unify and do it all together. The sword and the shield are only as good as those who wield them. . .

#140 LmL
Posted Today, 03:39 AM
I think the ancient kings of winter are a good bet for the sleepers that awaken. I do think they will be old ones, wherever they come from. There's also talk of "dark gods beneath the frostfangs" (I think thats the wording). And those graves were looted by Mance. Anyway. That will be fun when it happens, I'm sure....
You know, I can't help but hear the line about "sleepers awakening" without thinking of Dune. Paul is the sleepe who must awaken - and doesn't he take his name from the SHADOW of the... oh what was it... Oh that's right - THE SECOND MOON.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

141-145.

#141 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 05:01 AM
LmL, on 19 Sept 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:
I think the ancient kings of winter are a good bet for the sleepers that awaken. I do think they will be old ones, wherever they come from. There's also talk of "dark gods beneath the frostfangs" (I think thats the wording). And those graves were looted by Mance. Anyway. That will be fun when it happens, I'm sure....  You know, I can't help but hear the line about "sleepers awakening" without thinking of Dune. Paul is the sleepe who must awaken - and doesn't he take his name from the SHADOW of the... oh what was it... Oh that's right - THE SECOND MOON.
Wow I read those books so long ago, but I keep thinking of the God-Emperor of Dune because of these stupid names in the World Book. You never know...'
Something is up with those ancient king. They're connected with gray wraith kind of imagery I think. They seem to have a life like dragon bones do. There's a passage when Theon's in the crypts - I think it was Theon - where he describes their emotional reaction to him in exactly the same way Arya talks about the dragon skulls reaction to her the first time she's there.

#142 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:54 AM
LmL, on 19 Sept 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:
I think the ancient kings of winter are a good bet for the sleepers that awaken. I do think they will be old ones, wherever they come from. There's also talk of "dark gods beneath the frostfangs" (I think thats the wording). And those graves were looted by Mance. Anyway. That will be fun when it happens, I'm sure....  
PURE speculation.  I agree that the KoW are the ones that would be awakened. Could be similar to Andruil, Aragorn and the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Perhaps waking the sleepers is a very bad thing, but Jon in charge and able to prove his worthiness by wielding Dawn he gains control of the spirits of the Kings and uses them to fight for him.

#143 LmL
Posted Today, 11:39 AM
DarkSister1001, on 19 Sept 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:
PURE speculation.  I agree that the KoW are the ones that would be awakened. Could be similar to Andruil, Aragorn and the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Perhaps waking the sleepers is a very bad thing, but Jon in charge and able to prove his worthiness by wielding Dawn. he gains control of the spirits of the Kings and uses them to fight for him.
I like it! Jon leading an army of the dead - that would be sweet. Makes a certain amount of sense.
This is probably a good time to mention Ned's bones, which have not been laid to rest.

#144 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 11:55 AM
I'm also reminded of Odin's hand picked warriors trained to fight during Ragnarok.

#145 DarkSister1001
Posted 59 minutes ago
LmL, on 19 Sept 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:
I like it! Jon leading an army of the dead - that would be sweet. Makes a certain amount of sense.  This is probably a good time to mention Ned's bones, which have not been laid to rest.
IIRC Andruil was also called the Flame of the West.  It also had to be reforged.  Ned's Ice was broken down. Jon claiming Original Ice (not reforged, but repurposed...or maybe it's true/original purpose being brought to light) could be akin to it's reforging. Andruil was indestructible too. Lot's of connections.
Yes, those bones! Could you imagine Dead Ned walking up to Jon?! "Hey so, obviously we need to talk...nephew...but first let's kick some ass!"

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

146-150.

#146 DarkSister1001
Posted 57 minutes ago
Lady Dyanna, on 19 Sept 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:
I'm also reminded of Odin's hand picked warriors trained to fight during Ragnarok.
I'm not as well-informed on that as others. You've been so clear and enlightening in this discussion would you mind enlightening me on this fight?

#147 Lady Dyanna
Posted 41 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 19 Sept 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:
I'm not as well-informed on that as others. You've been so clear and enlightening in this discussion would you mind enlightening me on this fight?
My knowledge is fairly basic as well, just recently tried to learn a little more about Norse mythology. From what I understand in a nutshell, Odin used his Valkyries to go out and decide the outcome of battles. The Valkyries then picked half of the men slain in battle to be sent to Odin's hall Vahalla. There the slain warriors battled every day in preparation of Ragnarok, the end of times battle. So basically, again, you have the dead returning to assist in battle. Hope this makes sense. I'm trying to go from memory...

#148 DarkSister1001
Posted 36 minutes ago
Lady Dyanna, on 19 Sept 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:
My knowledge is fairly basic as well, just recently tried to learn a little more about Norse mythology. From what I understand in a nutshell, Odin used his Valkyries to go out and decide the outcome of battles. The Valkyries then picked half of the men slain in battle to be sent to Odin's hall Vahalla. There the slain warriors battled every day in preparation of Ragnarok, the end of times battle. So basically, again, you have the dead returning to assist in battle. Hope this makes sense. I'm trying to go from memory...
Thanks, I'm with ya.

#149 Lady Dyanna
Posted 35 minutes ago
The following was the introduction to one of the books I read. The overall similarities just seemed striking between ASOIAF and Ragnarok.
Quote
FAR AWAY AND LONG AGO Once there was another Sun and another Moon; a different Sun and a different Moon from the ones we see now. Sol was the name of that Sun and Mani was the name of that Moon. But always behind Sol and Mani wolves went, a wolf behind each. The wolves caught on them at last and they devoured Sol and Mani. And then the world was in darkness and cold. In those times the Gods lived, Odin and Thor, Hödur and Baldur, Tyr and Heimdall, Vidar and Vali, as well as Loki, the doer of good and the doer of evil. And the beautiful Goddesses were living then, Frigga, Freya, Nanna, Iduna, and Sif. But in the days when the Sun and Moon were destroyed the Gods were destroyed too—all the Gods except Baldur who had died before that time, Vidar and Vali, the sons of Odin, and Modi and Magni, the sons of Thor. At that time, too, there were men and women in the world. But before the Sun and the Moon were devoured and before the Gods were destroyed, terrible things happened in the world. Snow fell on the four corners of the earth and kept on falling for three seasons. Winds came and blew everything away. And the people of the world who had lived on in spite of the snow and the cold and the winds fought each other, brother killing brother, until all the people were destroyed. Also there was another earth at that time, an earth green and beautiful. But the terrible winds that blew leveled down forests and hills and dwellings. Then fire came and burnt the earth. There was darkness, for the Sun and the Moon were devoured. The Gods had met with their doom. And the time in which all these things happened was called Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods. Then a new Sun and a new Moon appeared and went traveling through the heavens; they were more lovely than Sol and Mani, and no wolves followed behind them in chase. The earth became green and beautiful again, and in a deep forest that the fire had not burnt a woman and a man wakened up. They had been hidden there by Odin and left to sleep during Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods. Lif was the woman's name, and Lifthrasir was the man's. They moved through the world, and their children and their children's children made people for the new earth. And of the Gods were left Vidar and Vali, the sons of Odin, and Modi and Magni, the sons of Thor; on the new earth Vidar and Vali found tablets that the older Gods had written on and had left there for them, tablets telling of all that had happened before Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods. And the people who lived after Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods, were not troubled, as the people in the older days were troubled, by the terrible beings who had brought destruction upon the world and upon men and women, and who from the beginning had waged war upon the Gods.

#150 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
LmL, on 19 Sept 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:
I like it! Jon leading an army of the dead - that would be sweet. Makes a certain amount of sense.  This is probably a good time to mention Ned's bones, which have not been laid to rest.
DarkSister1001, on 19 Sept 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:
IIRC Andruil was also called the Flame of the West.  It also had to be reforged.  Ned's Ice was broken down. Jon claiming Original Ice (not reforged, but repurposed...or maybe it's true/original purpose being brought to light) could be akin to it's reforging. Andruil was indestructible too. Lot's of connections.
Yes, those bones! Could you imagine Dead Ned walking up to Jon?! "Hey so, obviously we need to talk...nephew...but first let's kick some ass!"
Lady Dyanna, on 19 Sept 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:
I'm also reminded of Odin's hand picked warriors trained to fight during Ragnarok.
I'm liking this.
It goes with the Oath--the oldest part, the part that gets you through the Black Gate, is about identity. That part never says "I pledge my life for a certain time." Just says :this is what I am--as Kingmonkey pointed out elsewhere, it also ties into Taliesin and the old celtic ways of talking about weapons--I am the sword.
Which could imply that the role might never end--it is who the NW is. So, the dead--they wouldn't be the oathbreakers Aragorn calls. They'd be the oathkeepers. Thousands of years of men--rising to keep the oath. Would explain the tradition of the swords on the knees in the crypt, yet, though many swords have rusted away, the spirits don't rise. They only rise for the horn that wakes the sleepers. The risen dead against the undead.
Also fits with the themes of natural vs. twisted magics--I think. We've got the unnaturally reanimated dead (wights, Beric, UnCat); the transformed dead via some kind of blood sacrifice into a new form of life--Others and Dragons. Then the shadow babies. All of these unnatural, if in many ways fantastic, lives.
But the dead rising to defend their own--less of a transformation and more a call to arms. Like the spirits going into the trees to commune with the living. Like a warg's animal claiming him/her--living on in one's second self. Magic, yes, but not requiring a blood sacrifice.
Might also explain why Jon says he's not afraid of the Kings of Winter in the crypts but is afraid to go down, afraid of what's waiting (death). The Kings are going to be with him.
Maybe.

Sly Wren · September 28, 2015

151-155. Will then leave this and see if it holds for a few hours. Will post the rest of y'all's content tomorrow. Promise.

#151 DarkSister1001
Posted Yesterday, 01:24 PM
Sly Wren, on 19 Sept 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:
I'm liking this.
It goes with the Oath--the oldest part, the part that gets you through the Black Gate, is about identity. That part never says "I pledge my life for a certain time." Just says :this is what I am--as Kingmonkey pointed out elsewhere, it also ties into Taliesin and the old celtic ways of talking about weapons--I am the sword.
Which could imply that the role might never end--it is who the NW is. So, the dead--they wouldn't be the oathbreakers Aragorn calls. They'd be the oathkeepers. Thousands of years of men--rising to keep the oath. Would explain the tradition of the swords on the knees in the crypt, yet, though many swords have rusted away, the spirits don't rise. They only rise for the horn that wakes the sleepers. The risen dead against the undead.
Also fits with the themes of natural vs. twisted magics--I think. We've got the unnaturally reanimated dead (wights, Beric, UnCat); the transformed dead via some kind of blood sacrifice into a new form of life--Others and Dragons. Then the shadow babies. All of these unnatural, if in many ways fantastic, lives.
But the dead rising to defend their own--less of a transformation and more a call to arms. Like the spirits going into the trees to commune with the living. Like a warg's animal claiming him/her--living on in one's second self. Magic, yes, but not requiring a blood sacrifice.
Might also explain why Jon says he's not afraid of the Kings of Winter in the crypts but is afraid to go down, afraid of what's waiting (death). The Kings are going to be with him.
Maybe.
Blowing the horn (Joramun or Dragonbinder) = summoning the KoW/Dragons. Could be that the horn is neither good or bad but subject to whom is in charge when it's blown. If someone other than Aragorn tries to ralley the Dead then they die. If someone blows the horn and raises the dead they will fight the living...UNLESS their leader has proven his worthiness by wielding the Sword.  Similarly blowing the dragonhorn could call the dragons but if the person summoning them isn't a dragonseed they'd be lunch.
ETA: Assuming the person(s) blowing the dragonhorn didn't die in the process from fire lung.
Edited by DarkSister1001, Yesterday, 01:32 PM.

#152 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 10:18 PM
DarkSister1001, on 19 Sept 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:
Blowing the horn (Joramun or Dragonbinder) = summoning the KoW/Dragons. Could be that the horn is neither good or bad but subject to whom is in charge when it's blown. If someone other than Aragorn tries to ralley the Dead then they die. If someone blows the horn and raises the dead they will fight the living...UNLESS their leader has proven his worthiness by wielding the Sword.  Similarly blowing the dragonhorn could call the dragons but if the person summoning them isn't a dragonseed they'd be lunch.
ETA: Assuming the person(s) blowing the dragonhorn didn't die in the process from fire lung.
Workable--though am wondering if one man can really do everything--not just symbolically, but also practically.
Addicted to Snow was postulating over on Heresy something to the effect that the horn did blow when Sam tried it--just couldn't be heard.
Seems possible--but I'm also wondering if the horn only works are the right time, not just for the right people. Both the time and people and place are right and then it can be sounded. By a brother of the Watch who's held "true."
Liking the idea that a dragon seed has to blow the horn or be microwaved. Am also wondering if the dragon horn is like the process of waking the eggs--takes a blood sacrifice. So, someone has to die to create the dragon-controlling magic. Fire and blood--and a horn.

#153 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 01:22 AM
I would imagine it has to be a Stark that blows the horn (or makes the call), and that's why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. The Starks inherited the Dustin dead too when they married the Corpse King's daughter, so all those Barrows in Barrowton and in the barrow lands are up for the claiming by either the Others when they get across, or the Starks? I'm really up for a huge battle up north between the Other's dead (and whatever else they have), and the Stark and Dustin dead, and all the skin changed beasts, etc. I'm convinced the deciding battle will be at the God's Eye, either spiritual, celestial or physical, but there will need to be more than one before the cycle closes and the next one starts (or Jon or Bran is able to right it somehow). I can totally see Arya as the one to blow the horn; she's got so many death-associated symbols, and that bond with Nymeria who already seems to be ruling a huge pack of wolves.
On the other hand, can't help but think of Narnia too. I always hated what CS Lewis did with the sister, Susan's character, making her become too vain and empty-headed so unable to go to Narnia when she died. I've seen Sansa as almost a direct knock-off, with much more depth and complexity of course. Susan was the one that inherits the horn from Aslan. I'd be totally into it if George redeemed poor Susan through Sansa, and we had Sansa the hero of that battle. But don't think so, there's nothing indicating this at all in her character. (Sorry, Narnia got me turned on to fantasy in the first place; lived and breathed those books when I was a kid.)
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 01:32 AM.

#154 Voice of the First Men
Posted Today, 01:58 AM
LmL, on 17 Sept 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:
Blood of the dragon is still red, y'all. Red goes both ways , as does blue. I'm telling you. There's even a plague called the red death.
Dany's door is red - and it represents waking the dragon. "Fire red, blood red, the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign."
full disclosure: I typed "walking the dragon" instead of "waking," and I was tempted to leave it in because it conjures up a funny mental image. And now you have it. Walk you dragon, everyone, walk your dragon. They get a bit cooped up and pissy otherwise.
I have a feeling dragons are ill-tempered no matter how often they are walked...
Many things are the color red, to be sure. But, there is Jon's red, like the eyes of a weirwood, and Mel's shadowfire red. Jon notices the distinction between the two, and so should we.
Dragonblood is a whole other can of firewyrms. Red it may be, but Ghost is about as un-dragony as it gets. We met Ghost's mother, and it wasn't a woman setting herself on fire. LOL
It's funny really, how different Jon is from Dany as early as chapter 1. Like night and dayne these two.

#155 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 12:22 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:
I would imagine it has to be a Stark that blows the horn (or makes the call), and that's why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. The Starks inherited the Dustin dead too when they married the Corpse King's daughter, so all those Barrows in Barrowton and in the barrow lands are up for the claiming by either the Others when they get across, or the Starks? I'm really up for a huge battle up north between the Other's dead (and whatever else they have), and the Stark and Dustin dead, and all the skin changed beasts, etc. I'm convinced the deciding battle will be at the God's Eye, either spiritual, celestial or physical, but there will need to be more than one before the cycle closes and the next one starts (or Jon or Bran is able to right it somehow). I can totally see Arya as the one to blow the horn; she's got so many death-associated symbols, and that bond with Nymeria who already seems to be ruling a huge pack of wolves.
1. I see your point--it does seem like the Starks would be the one to call to arms. In Jon's second (told) dream about going into the Winterfell crypts, the tombs open. Heresy has speculated a lot about the iron swords on the knees of the Kings of Winter--warding, denial of guest right, etc. But It also reminds me of Robb's having his sword bared on his knees when Tyrion comes. Someone (I think Feather Crystal) was saying that Robb isn't really denying Tyrion guestright--Tyrion's safe, he is offered a room, etc. But Robb does seem to be ready for a fight.
So, maybe that's (part of) why the Kings of Winter and their descendants have swords on their knees. They are ruling in Winterfell, but ready to fight when called. And would be fantastic if it were Arya--though I keep trying to figure out how Needle will play in. . . only identity? I doubt it.
2. I agree on the Dustins and the Barrowlands--the barrow wight scene in Tolkien scared me big time when I was little. But these wights would join the fight (I think).
3. SOMETHING has to happen at the God's Eye--it's just sitting there, referenced and no action. I like the idea of a final battle happening there. But I also suspect Winterfell as a possible place. Still, Ned does say that he might have to ride from Winterfell to deal with the King beyond the Wall--presents Winterfell as the stronghold from which Starks ride out. So, might not be the final battle after all.
Lady Barbrey, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:
On the other hand, can't help but think of Narnia too. I always hated what CS Lewis did with the sister, Susan's character, making her become too vain and empty-headed so unable to go to Narnia when she died. I've seen Sansa as almost a direct knock-off, with much more depth and complexity of course. Susan was the one that inherits the horn from Aslan. I'd be totally into it if George redeemed poor Susan through Sansa, and we had Sansa the hero of that battle. But don't think so, there's nothing indicating this at all in her character. (Sorry, Narnia got me turned on to fantasy in the first place; lived and breathed those books when I was a kid.)
NEVER apologize for Narnia--I made my dad read me The Horse and his Boy about 10 times when I was 7.
I, too, think Sansa's going an opposite route to Susan--she's going back to Winterfell in her emotions, not pulling away.
And, back to your Corpse Queen point--I keep looping on this, but Sansa is a Corpse Queen of sorts. The only character I can think of whose natural state is both alive and dead--connected to dead wolf means her other self is dead. That moment in the Eyrie when she goes down the spiral (underworld) stair--connecting to Winterfell and the dead. Right after that she smacks Robin--territorial wolf. Knows all are watching and does not care--more like Arya than Sansa. Wolfy.
So, not sure if she's the hero of the battle--but playing a roll in calling the dead? She's the Stark both alive and dead.
ETA: Re: horns: in the night before Jon sees the Sword of the Morning, he looks at the Wall and thinks how he has no horn to call the Watch to action. And even if he blew it, there'd be no one to hear.
But--if he has the horn wakes the dead, or, more like the myth, it wakes the sleepers, those true to the faith and purpose of the land--that should be a call heard all over the North.

LmL · September 28, 2015

Hey Sly Wren, you should see if you can get those font sizes under control. Test out the formatting options.

Look at me, turning blue comets red. Did I use magic or photoshop?

Not telling. Ooh I like this Georgia font. It looks nice in 14 pt.

Sly Wren · September 29, 2015

Thanks for the heads up--they did NOT look that big when I did them yesterday.

Having fun with comets, I see.

Okay: 156-160

#156 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 12:52 PM
Voice of the First Men, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:
It's funny really, how different Jon is from Dany as early as chapter 1. Like night and dayne these two.
YUP!!! Right from the start.
Now, Dany's the conquerer. Jon's the defender. He thinks how idiotic it is for Stannis and Selyse to be trying to create married alliances with wildlings, to inherit the kingship. Jon knows that for wildlings, kings are chosen by the people who follow them. Not conquerers. Like the Lord Commander is chosen. Like, to a lesser extent, Robb was chosen as king by his people.

#157 LmL
Posted Today, 01:48 PM
Sly Wren, on 20 Sept 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:
1. I see your point--it does seem like the Starks would be the one to call to arms. In Jon's second (told) dream about going into the Winterfell crypts, the tombs open. Heresy has speculated a lot about the iron swords on the knees of the Kings of Winter--warding, denial of guest right, etc. But It also reminds me of Robb's having his sword bared on his knees when Tyrion comes. Someone (I think Feather Crystal) was saying that Robb isn't really denying Tyrion guestright--Tyrion's safe, he is offered a room, etc. But Robb does seem to be ready for a fight.   So, maybe that's (part of) why the Kings of Winter and their descendants have swords on their knees. They are ruling in Winterfell, but ready to fight when called. And would be fantastic if it were Arya--though I keep trying to figure out how Needle will play in. . . only identity? I doubt it.   2. I agree on the Dustins and the Barrowlands--the barrow wight scene in Tolkien scared me big time when I was little. But these wights would join the fight (I think).   3. SOMETHING has to happen at the God's Eye--it's just sitting there, referenced and no action. I like the idea of a final battle happening there. But I also suspect Winterfell as a possible place. Still, Ned does say that he might have to ride from Winterfell to deal with the King beyond the Wall--presents Winterfell as the stronghold from which Starks ride out. So, might not be the final battle after all.      NEVER apologize for Narnia--I made my dad read me The Horse and his Boy about 10 times when I was 7.    I, too, think Sansa's going an opposite route to Susan--she's going back to Winterfell in her emotions, not pulling away.    And, back to your Corpse Queen point--I keep looping on this, but Sansa is a Corpse Queen of sorts. The only character I can think of whose natural state is both alive and dead--connected to dead wolf means her other self is dead. That moment in the Eyrie when she goes down the spiral (underworld) stair--connecting to Winterfell and the dead. Right after that she smacks Robin--territorial wolf. Knows all are watching and does not care--more like Arya than Sansa. Wolfy.    So, not sure if she's the hero of the battle--but playing a roll in calling the dead? She's the Stark both alive and dead.      ETA: Re: horns: in the night before Jon sees the Sword of the Morning, he looks at the Wall and thinks how he has no horn to call the Watch to action. And even if he blew it, there'd be no one to hear.   But--if he has the horn wakes the dead, or, more like the myth, it wakes the sleepers, those true to the faith and purpose of the land--that should be a call heard all over the North.
Point of fact, Robb is denying guest right, and going further to actually declare open hostility, as he does with Cleos Frey and by extension House Lannister. He only offers Tyrion a place to stay AFTER he sheathes his sword.
Unless I am totally tripping, I'm pretty sure that's what happened. However you want to phrase it - denial of hospitality, open aggression, etc., it's really semantics. It means YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, AND I AM PREPARED TO KILL YOU. That's essentially what those KoW are saying, IMO. The second layer of meaning, the idea that the swords keep them in their tombs - I don't know if this is right or not, but regardless, it implies the idea that those spirits might come out of the tombs. The denial of guest right implies it to - the threat doesn't mean anything if the spirits don't have a way to manifest.
Arya recalls Jon walking out of the tomb covered in flour like a ghost, and Jon dreams of the dead kings waking and emerging... That's all pretty clear foreshadowing to me.
One thing I think is interesting: the dragon skull chamber and the crypts of WF are parallel stages. Both have a spiraling stairwell, cold air, dead things (statues / dragon skulls) whose eyes follow, a couple other things. And it is when Arya is down in the dragon skull chamber that she recalls the "Jon covered in flour" scene. I noticed this a while ago and have been meaning to compare all the scenes on both locations, but I haven't had the chance so I thought I would throw it out and see what everyone makes of it. Definitely parallel.
Oh and Sly Wren & Lady Barbrey, as to the final action at the God's Eye, I say yes. Above and below. If the ice moon moves into eclipse position when the comet (theoretically) hits it, we will have another God's Eye celestial alignment. And if any of my ideas about the Old Ones being the green men, then we will definitely need to see the Isle of Faces. I think both will happen. At least, my theories predict both.
Edited by LmL, Today, 01:52 PM.

#158 LmL
Posted Today, 01:54 PM
Sly Wren, on 20 Sept 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:
YUP!!! Right from the start.   Now, Dany's the conquerer. Jon's the defender. He thinks how idiotic it is for Stannis and Selyse to be trying to create married alliances with wildlings, to inherit the kingship. Jon knows that for wildlings, kings are chosen by the people who follow them. Not conquerers. Like the Lord Commander is chosen. Like, to a lesser extent, Robb was chosen as king by his people.
That's a good observation, the fact that Jon scoffs at the attempts to marry Val and becoming "King of the Wildlings" or treating Val as a princess, etc. It fits with you observation of this theme of earning your position with Jon, good job.

#159 Voice of the First Men
Posted 34 minutes ago
LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:
That's a good observation, the fact that Jon scoffs at the attempts to marry Val and becoming "King of the Wildlings" or treating Val as a princess, etc. It fits with you observation of this theme of earning your position with Jon, good job.
Yup. I just wanted to concur and add that Dany, by contrast, begins conquering at the start. She conquers Drogo with her blood, Viserys with her khalasar, and uses the khal to hatch dragons. She builds nothing. Instead, she only consumes what better people have made. Jon, in contrast, preserves and builds upon the past. One is clearly fire made flesh.

#160 Sly Wren
Posted 9 minutes ago
LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:
Spoiler
Yup!! I misremembered--badly. Even Bran thinks he knows what the unsheathed sword means. And, as you said, that fact works with the point about the spirits rising--they are ready to defend against all comers, all who are not their blood.
Reminds me again of how Jon says he's frightened of what's waiting in the crypts, but is NOT afraid of the old Kings of Winter. He is still of Stark blood, no matter is name.

LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:
One thing I think is interesting: the dragon skull chamber and the crypts of WF are parallel stages. Both have a spiraling stairwell, cold air, dead things (statues / dragon skulls) whose eyes follow, a couple other things. And it is when Arya is down in the dragon skull chamber that she recalls the "Jon covered in flour" scene. I noticed this a while ago and have been meaning to compare all the scenes on both locations, but I haven't had the chance so I thought I would throw it out and see what everyone makes of it. Definitely parallel.
Absolutely. And, when Arya remembers the flour scene, it's part of why she's not afraid to go down into the chamber vs. running away. Do the unexpected. She thinks going down is safe and she's not afraid. Same with Sansa and the spiral stair at the Eyrie. Her maid wraps up in extra blankets and goes back to sleep. Sansa goes down in the cold and dark into the garden--safe, and dead, and cold, and innocent--home.
The Starks have and are developing a close relationship with the realms of the dead.
LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:
Oh and Sly Wren & Lady Barbrey, as to the final action at the God's Eye, I say yes. Above and below. If the ice moon moves into eclipse position when the comet (theoretically) hits it, we will have another God's Eye celestial alignment. And if any of my ideas about the Old Ones being the green men, then we will definitely need to see the Isle of Faces. I think both will happen. At least, my theories predict both.
I'm still not sold on another astronomical event--though I like the idea.
That said--I agree that the Green Men are either the old ones per se or more closely tied to them than anyone. The God's Eye is right in the middle of everything. And so much of the story is about the symbols being replaced by the actual things they symbolized--going back to the reality. To the beginning. God's Eye has to be a key point.

And 161-165

#161 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 04:33 PM
LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:
That's a good observation, the fact that Jon scoffs at the attempts to marry Val and becoming "King of the Wildlings" or treating Val as a princess, etc. It fits with you observation of this theme of earning your position with Jon, good job. Cheers!
Voice of the First Men, on 20 Sept 2015 - 2:59 PM, said:
Yup. I just wanted to concur and add that Dany, by contrast, begins conquering at the start. She conquers Drogo with her blood, Viserys with her khalasar, and uses the khal to hatch dragons. She builds nothing. Instead, she only consumes what better people have made. Jon, in contrast, preserves and builds upon the past. One is clearly fire made flesh.
Cheers!
Dany does intend to build on the past--when she gets back to Westeros. Irony is, it's not actually her past or her home. Or at least not in the way that the North is Jon's home. Ghost looks like a wierwood, for pity's sake.
Dany's trying to undermine the corrupt things others have built societies on--slavery, slavery, slavery. But then she can't build better--there's the chapter where she's mourning the fact that the freed slaves are all turning to prostitution because it's the only thing they can do. She can free them, but can't keep them free.
Still, Jon's not doing too much better--knifing the boss at the company Christmas party might be a team-building exercise, but it's hardly a ringing endorsement of job performance. Jon's not doing so hot at actually getting back to the true purpose of the Watch. He's trying to build on the old values, but so far struggling to translate ideals into practical results.

#162 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 04:48 PM
Not sold, ay? WELL!! In that case, let me bury you in obscure text quotes!!
Just kidding. Just one. As you read this, consider that the hammer wielder is the solar stag, a smith.
Quote
There was life at the crossroads inn, though. Even before they reached the gate, Brienne heard the sound: a hammering, faint but steady. It had a steely ring. “A forge,” Ser Hyle said. “Either they have themselves a smith, or the old innkeep’s ghost is making another iron dragon.” ...  “Worse?” Brienne asked. “Thieves,” said a boy’s voice from the stables. “Robbers.” Brienne turned, and saw a ghost. Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. “My lord?” she gasped. “Lord?” The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. “I’m just a smith.” ...  Brienne sucked in her breath and drew Oathkeeper. Too many, she thought, with a start of fear, they are too many. “Gendry,” she said in a low voice, “you’ll want a sword, and armor. These are not your friends. They’re no one’s friends.” “What are you talking about?” The boy came and stood beside her, his hammer in his hand. Lightning cracked to the south as the riders swung down off their horses. For half a heartbeat darkness turned to day. An axe gleamed silvery blue, light shimmered off mail and plate, and beneath the dark hood of the lead rider Brienne glimpsed an iron snout and rows of steel teeth, snarling. …  The door to the inn banged open. Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words. (AFFC, Brienne)


#163 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 11:37 PM
LmL, on 20 Sept 2015 - 3:48 PM, said:
Not sold, ay? WELL!! In that case, let me bury you in obscure text quotes!!  Just kidding. Just one. As you read this, consider that the hammer wielder is the solar stag, a smith.
Okay--here goes my probably less astronomy based reading.
QUOTE: There was life at the crossroads inn, though. Even before they reached the gate, Brienne heard the sound: a hammering, faint but steady. It had a steely ring. “A forge,” Ser Hyle said. “Either they have themselves a smith, or the old innkeep’s ghost is making another iron dragon.” … I've always liked that Gendry's hammer turns Robert's admittedly cool warhammer into something that creates, not destroys. Robert was a great warrior, but a terrible ruler. Gendry, the smith, creation imagery through impact and heat. That may not be what you are getting at--but I see possibilities for Gendry's potential roles in the upcoming battles.
 QUOTE: “Worse?” Brienne asked. “Thieves,” said a boy’s voice from the stables. “Robbers.” Brienne turned, and saw a ghost. Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. “My lord?” she gasped. “Lord?” The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. “I’m just a smith.” … I like the fact that Gendry looks like the dead--even more so than Jon seems to look like Ned (apologies for accidental rhyminess). As though the smith's role does continue onwards.
QUOTE: Brienne sucked in her breath and drew Oathkeeper. Too many, she thought, with a start of fear, they are too many. “Gendry,” she said in a low voice, “you’ll want a sword, and armor. These are not your friends. They’re no one’s friends.” “What are you talking about?” The boy came and stood beside her, his hammer in his hand. Lightning cracked to the south as the riders swung down off their horses. For half a heartbeat darkness turned to day. An axe gleamed silvery blue, light shimmered off mail and plate, and beneath the dark hood of the lead rider Brienne glimpsed an iron snout and rows of steel teeth, snarling. …
The door to the inn banged open. Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words. (AFFC, Brienne)
Very cool--lightning and hammers--sun imagery and even Thor. Though the crack of lightning can only work for a moment. Still, it does illuminate.
But the fact that Gendry's an armorer seems potentially important, too. One who creates "safety" for the fighters. Weaponry. Arya wields swords, Gendry makes and repairs them.
Weaponry will be part of the key to brining back the day. And, if any of the speculation about VS holds true, Gendry might have a role with Ice--really think Ice, whole or broken, will play a role somewhere in the mess. My guess is dragons, but still.

#164 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 12:02 AM
I just had a thought while reading through some of the comments. Nearly all of the characters (at least IIRC) that experience an "underworld" type event seem to always go down, be it a spiral or twisted stair (Sansa, Arya) or into a cave or cavern (Jon, Jaime, Bran). That is, all except Dany. When she goes into the HotU, she is specifically told NOT to go down. The only stairs she uses are the ones that go up. I'm not sure if this actually means anything, but I do find it intriguing. What would have happened had she chosen to go down the stairs?
Edited by Lady Dyanna, Today, 12:05 AM.

#165 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 12:30 AM
Lady Dyanna, on 20 Sept 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:
I just had a thought while reading through some of the comments. Nearly all of the characters (at least IIRC) that experience an "underworld" type event seem to always go down, be it a spiral or twisted stair (Sansa, Arya) or into a cave or cavern (Jon, Jaime, Bran). That is, all except Dany. When she goes into the HotU, she is specifically told NOT to go down. The only stairs she uses are the ones that go up. I'm not sure if this actually means anything, but I do find it intriguing. What would have happened had she chosen to go down the stairs?
Yes--Arya thinks it would be "unexpected" to go down. She's following Syrio's advice re: doing the unexpected. And it seems counterintuitive to go down into the realm of the dead--the spiral stair.
But it isn't just "down"--it's also "back." To the past. Dany sees the past in the HotU, and remembers some of it. But she goes up and out--away from Darry. Away from Rhaegar. Away from Aerys (though that's completely understandable).
And I'd forgotten that she can't go down in the HotU. That's interesting (at least to me). If "down" means "back," means "insight from or connecting to the past" (assuming my hypothesis holds any weight)--then the HotU can only help her so far. The HotU is once again looking like a parallel to the Winterfell crypts and Bloodraven's cave--but a parallel with a difference. Dany's running forward, but can't go back/down. Even if she needs to. Maybe.

Sly Wren · September 29, 2015

166-170

#166 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 02:13 AM
Sly Wren, on 20 Sept 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:
Yes--Arya thinks it would be "unexpected" to go down. She's following Syrio's advice re: doing the unexpected. And it seems counterintuitive to go down into the realm of the dead--the spiral stair.
But it isn't just "down"--it's also "back." To the past. Dany sees the past in the HotU, and remembers some of it. But she goes up and out--away from Darry. Away from Rhaegar. Away from Aerys (though that's completely understandable).
And I'd forgotten that she can't go down in the HotU. That's interesting (at least to me). If "down" means "back," means "insight from or connecting to the past" (assuming my hypothesis holds any weight)--then the HotU can only help her so far. The HotU is once again looking like a parallel to the Winterfell crypts and Bloodraven's cave--but a parallel with a difference. Dany's running forward, but can't go back/down. Even if she needs to. Maybe.
Doesn't she say at one point that's going up but thinks it's down or something along those lines?

#167 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 02:50 AM
Sly Wren, on 20 Sept 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:
1. I see your point--it does seem like the Starks would be the one to call to arms. In Jon's second (told) dream about going into the Winterfell crypts, the tombs open. Heresy has speculated a lot about the iron swords on the knees of the Kings of Winter--warding, denial of guest right, etc. But It also reminds me of Robb's having his sword bared on his knees when Tyrion comes. Someone (I think Feather Crystal) was saying that Robb isn't really denying Tyrion guestright--Tyrion's safe, he is offered a room, etc. But Robb does seem to be ready for a fight.
So, maybe that's (part of) why the Kings of Winter and their descendants have swords on their knees. They are ruling in Winterfell, but ready to fight when called. And would be fantastic if it were Arya--though I keep trying to figure out how Needle will play in. . . only identity? I doubt it.
2. I agree on the Dustins and the Barrowlands--the barrow wight scene in Tolkien scared me big time when I was little. But these wights would join the fight (I think).
3. SOMETHING has to happen at the God's Eye--it's just sitting there, referenced and no action. I like the idea of a final battle happening there. But I also suspect Winterfell as a possible place. Still, Ned does say that he might have to ride from Winterfell to deal with the King beyond the Wall--presents Winterfell as the stronghold from which Starks ride out. So, might not be the final battle after all.
NEVER apologize for Narnia--I made my dad read me The Horse and his Boy about 10 times when I was 7.
I, too, think Sansa's going an opposite route to Susan--she's going back to Winterfell in her emotions, not pulling away.
And, back to your Corpse Queen point--I keep looping on this, but Sansa is a Corpse Queen of sorts. The only character I can think of whose natural state is both alive and dead--connected to dead wolf means her other self is dead. That moment in the Eyrie when she goes down the spiral (underworld) stair--connecting to Winterfell and the dead. Right after that she smacks Robin--territorial wolf. Knows all are watching and does not care--more like Arya than Sansa. Wolfy.
So, not sure if she's the hero of the battle--but playing a roll in calling the dead? She's the Stark both alive and dead.
ETA: Re: horns: in the night before Jon sees the Sword of the Morning, he looks at the Wall and thinks how he has no horn to call the Watch to action. And even if he blew it, there'd be no one to hear.
But--if he has the horn wakes the dead, or, more like the myth, it wakes the sleepers, those true to the faith and purpose of the land--that should be a call heard all over the North.
Spoiler
Okay, I like that he saw that right before he sees the Sword of the Morning. Because away back when in your last thread, I said that if he has Dawn, it is a call in and of itself. If you want to unite the realm, wake the sleepers who are denying anything is happening, to fight - the only unifying symbol I see in the whole of Westeros is the sword, Dawn, that everyone knows about. Dawn in the hands of the Sword in the Morning becomes the horn, the call to arms.
What is a horn for? It's a call to arms. A horn is a "call"? Maybe Sansa's very presence in the North would be a call to arms, and Jon revealed as Sword of the Morning a call to the realm.
I like this better, really, then an actual horn. I'm already hoping for a sword! So already too high fantasy. But if the sword/Jon acts as many things in one ... the light, the fire, the horn. Better.
By the way, I deciphered more of the World Book section, or understood it better anyhow. It does go into the future, showing what happens when the azure-eyed (the Others, I'm assuming) win. The North and the Neck would be destroyed, drowned. The Twins end up an island. The God's Eye is destroyed. Dorne continues, raising a potential emperor of their own. The Iron Born more than survive. There is slavery. Life does go on, but the new "Others" to scare children with, behind the five forts (the Wall), are dragonlords, bloodless men (Boltons), barrows and an evil yellow emperor (of an Illyrio nature) on the rise. One part of the North does survive, however, as an island off the coast, and the Children are on it, in an alliance with men, ready to try once more, I assume, to break the power of both ice and fire.
So this is the future of Westeros, another cycle. More imperative than anything that ice and fire are BOTH seen as the adversary, and either a pact or destroy them both together.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 03:01 AM.

#168 LmL
Posted Today, 06:06 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 21 Sept 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:
Okay, I like that he saw that right before he sees the Sword of the Morning. Because away back when in your last thread, I said that if he has Dawn, it is a call in and of itself. If you want to unite the realm, wake the sleepers who are denying anything is happening, to fight - the only unifying symbol I see in the whole of Westeros is the sword, Dawn, that everyone knows about. Dawn in the hands of the Sword in the Morning becomes the horn, the call to arms.
What is a horn for? It's a call to arms. A horn is a "call"? Maybe Sansa's very presence in the North would be a call to arms, and Jon revealed as Sword of the Morning a call to the realm.
I like this better, really, then an actual horn. I'm already hoping for a sword! So already too high fantasy. But if the sword/Jon acts as many things in one ... the light, the fire, the horn. Better.
By the way, I deciphered more of the World Book section, or understood it better anyhow. It does go into the future, showing what happens when the azure-eyed (the Others, I'm assuming) win. The North and the Neck would be destroyed, drowned. The Twins end up an island. The God's Eye is destroyed. Dorne continues, raising a potential emperor of their own. The Iron Born more than survive. There is slavery. Life does go on, but the new "Others" to scare children with, behind the five forts (the Wall), are dragonlords, bloodless men (Boltons), barrows and an evil yellow emperor (of an Illyrio nature) on the rise. One part of the North does survive, however, as an island off the coast, and the Children are on it, in an alliance with men, ready to try once more, I assume, to break the power of both ice and fire.
So this is the future of Westeros, another cycle. More imperative than anything that ice and fire are BOTH seen as the adversary, and either a pact or destroy them both together.
Wow dude, it's like you fucking bought an Ice and Fire crystal ball, and you're waving your hands over TWOAIF and giving psychic readings. I love this; but you are going to have to change your name to "Madam Barbrey."
The reason why I love this, besides sheer entertainment value, is that I have been saying for MONTHS that TWOIAF is a detailed code which tells us all about the Dawn Age events. I *think* I found the entire template for the War for the Dawn in the Dothraki destruction of Sarnor... I found it early on, way back during essay #1, but it's so fucking wild that I have been keeping it under my hat while I work through all the coherent stuff. So.. when you come out and are all like "TWOIAF is a detailed code which tells us all about the events of the future," it both validates me and makes me think "duh, of course it is, because this whole thing is a time slinkee, a cycle that comes back around to where it was before, almost, but not quite. It's always a new permutation, but it's always the same.
I've known form the start that the past events would likely mirror the future in many ways... but mirroring can also be accomplished with inversions and reversals. Wemight need to undo the sin that was done, so we might need to replay the cycle backwards or inverted. This creates enough wiggle room that I haven't felt the desire to stick my neck out making wacky predictions... and I am more concerned with showing the "mythical astronomy of the past" aspect, and I think it would hurt my credibility in that regard if I started doing the wacky prediction thing. But once in a while something hits me in the face, like the comet hitting the remaining moon, or Lightbringer taking fire with black fire like Balerion and Drogon's, one or two other things... I mention them. But I love that you have cracked one of the seemingly more specific metaphors in such detail... it's really exciting to know this kind of stuff is there for the future events as well. We'll have to go over your findings and make sure we are interpreting them as best as we can. Won't that be fun.   Ok, so a minute for your specific ideas - I was just chatting with some other folks about the idea of the Wall or the Heart of Winter glacier melting after being struck my a meteorite. A similar idea is already floating out there, with the idea being the comet coming back and hitting the heart of winter theoretical glacier from which the milk water flows, and the Wall is actually a damn built in the past by greenseers who could see the future. My own ideas about the ice moon's impending destruction predict a flood also, which I was tending to interpret as the Wall melting. The "streaks of red fire" that turn to rivers of black ice in the cracks of the Wall which I am so fond of pointing out. Sounds like a meteor triggering an icy dark tide. Sounds like my kinda fucking ending.
So, the Twins an island, huh? That's also foreshadowed in the text when the Starks are at the Twins, that they can do a Riverrun thing and open sluice gates in the river to makes their castles islands. A new island in the north, that's kinda wild. And the new "Others" are dragon people? What happens to the icy others? Am I understanding this correctly?
Fucking Madam Barbrey. Goddamn.

#169 Sly Wren
Posted 54 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 21 Sept 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:
Okay, I like that he saw that right before he sees the Sword of the Morning. Because away back when in your last thread, I said that if he has Dawn, it is a call in and of itself. If you want to unite the realm, wake the sleepers who are denying anything is happening, to fight - the only unifying symbol I see in the whole of Westeros is the sword, Dawn, that everyone knows about. Dawn in the hands of the Sword in the Morning becomes the horn, the call to arms.
What is a horn for? It's a call to arms. A horn is a "call"? Maybe Sansa's very presence in the North would be a call to arms, and Jon revealed as Sword of the Morning a call to the realm.
I like this better, really, then an actual horn. I'm already hoping for a sword! So already too high fantasy. But if the sword/Jon acts as many things in one ... the light, the fire, the horn. Better.
I agree--Dawn and the Sword of the Morning could unify the living sleepers, the ones in denial.
But as LmL said above--Jon's dream where he gets into the crypts and the tombs open--really think that's foreshadowing. The North is full of graves, Ned tells Robert. A living land with "living" dead. I don't know who might blow this horn, or figure out how to wake those sleepers (whether it's an actual horn or not) but I think those sleepers are waking.
Lady Barbrey, on 21 Sept 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:
By the way, I deciphered more of the World Book section, or understood it better anyhow. It does go into the future, showing what happens when the azure-eyed (the Others, I'm assuming) win. The North and the Neck would be destroyed, drowned. The Twins end up an island. The God's Eye is destroyed. Dorne continues, raising a potential emperor of their own. The Iron Born more than survive. There is slavery. Life does go on, but the new "Others" to scare children with, behind the five forts (the Wall), are dragonlords, bloodless men (Boltons), barrows and an evil yellow emperor (of an Illyrio nature) on the rise. One part of the North does survive, however, as an island off the coast, and the Children are on it, in an alliance with men, ready to try once more, I assume, to break the power of both ice and fire.
So this is the future of Westeros, another cycle. More imperative than anything that ice and fire are BOTH seen as the adversary, and either a pact or destroy them both together.
I don't have my World Book handy to check, but it sounds like what you are describing is what's happening in the books right now. Not necessarily the future. . .
The azure-eyed people rose. The Stark in Winterfell was warned--but didn't believe. He went south. And BOOM!
The North has been flooded (Bran's dream) with Ironborn who "win" and enslave.
The Freys in The Twins are on an island in the Riverlands--they've taken over and are "allied" with the Lannisters. But that "island" is increasingly surrounded by Nymeria's mega-wolfpack and the Brotherhood without Banners.
The new bogeymen ARE the Blood-Men-Boltons--uniting the Hill Clans to fight for "The Ned's Little Girl." And Dany's dragons are bogeys, too--she's not Mysha to a big chunk of the population. She's the enemy that must be put down. Now, she's reunited with a khalassar--outcome seems likely to make her a double bogeyman--dragons and a horde.
And Illyrio's plans are on the rise.
One island in the North has stayed true: "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark."
And there is an enclave/island of Children "allied" with human greenseers (Bloodraven and Bran).
So, seems like the World Book may be describing the present--ice and fire are both the adversary. And, per the original synopsis, all must work together to defeat them, either as a unit, or as a dual threat (IE: Jon and the North take the Others, Brienne and Jaime and the South kill the monster dragons).
Or is there something specific that points to all of this being the future vs. the present?
Edited for spelling.

#170 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 06:17 AM
That is a very good point, Sly Wren, and good catches all round. I thought the same at first and still think so to a point. But it is pretty specific to a future (and past) cycle too. There are no White Walkers threatening the realm in this future/past history; they are associated with the rulers of it. Moreover, the history leading up to it mirrors key dynasties in the history leading up where we are in Westeros, then goes beyond it. The emphasis is on the cycle, I think, nothing changes in the Game of Thrones. It is showing just a potential future if this war is to be lost, as if Yi Ti has already been through it, and really it is the land that has suffered. It is also nearing the end of the ice supremacy, things are drying up after ice turned to water, paving the way for the return of the fire elements, the new Others. That is what happens in Ragnarok, too, if you think about it - fire and ice meet and the world is destroyed by water as the ice melts. So yes, it's a reflection of what's happening now too as foreshadowing and as pieces in a puzzle - Yi Ti shows us what the long-term result will be. I think it emphasizes that it doesn't matter who would win in a clash between fire and ice; the land loses. A theme Martin has been emphasizing throughout anyway, particularly in AFFC.
Anyway, I don't mean to dereail the thread. Just wanted to support your own theory about the sword of the morning. And that Jon is NOT ice or fire but a combination. I have a suspicion that if ice has a human avatar, as fire does with Dany, it must be Benjen. I mean who else can it be? Dany is from a generation on par with Benjen's, not Jon's. Dany comes from a line that became concentrated to birth her; so does Benjen, when his dad marries his cousin and brings two lines of Starks together. None of the Stark kids make sense as ice; they've got Catelyn (water) as their mother or Rhaegar as their dad. The iciest Stark in terms of bloodlines is Benjen. And why all these hints about "younger brothers", the GEoftDawn story, the valonquar, etc. For the Starks, the younger brother isn't Rickon (our shaggy dog story) or Bran in his tree, it's a generation back, the younger brother is Benjen. Dany is Jon's aunt, the younger sister; Benjen is his uncle, the younger brother. The symmetry just makes sense.
Why do I jump to this? Because the Others rule Westeros if they win, and not everyone dies. They have a line of emperors or kings that don't melt. So they are allied with or controlled by humans of some kind, human-Others much like the Valyrians are human-Dragons. Humans do survive. It's the land that is destroyed.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 07:02 AM.

171-175

#171 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 06:41 AM
LmL, on 21 Sept 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:
Wow dude, it's like you fucking bought an Ice and Fire crystal ball, and you're waving your hands over TWOAIF and giving psychic readings. I love this; but you are going to have to change your name to "Madam Barbrey."
The reason why I love this, besides sheer entertainment value, is that I have been saying for MONTHS that TWOIAF is a detailed code which tells us all about the Dawn Age events. I *think* I found the entire template for the War for the Dawn in the Dothraki destruction of Sarnor... I found it early on, way back during essay #1, but it's so fucking wild that I have been keeping it under my hat while I work through all the coherent stuff. So.. when you come out and are all like "TWOIAF is a detailed code which tells us all about the events of the future," it both validates me and makes me think "duh, of course it is, because this whole thing is a time slinkee, a cycle that comes back around to where it was before, almost, but not quite. It's always a new permutation, but it's always the same.
I've known form the start that the past events would likely mirror the future in many ways... but mirroring can also be accomplished with inversions and reversals. Wemight need to undo the sin that was done, so we might need to replay the cycle backwards or inverted. This creates enough wiggle room that I haven't felt the desire to stick my neck out making wacky predictions... and I am more concerned with showing the "mythical astronomy of the past" aspect, and I think it would hurt my credibility in that regard if I started doing the wacky prediction thing. But once in a while something hits me in the face, like the comet hitting the remaining moon, or Lightbringer taking fire with black fire like Balerion and Drogon's, one or two other things... I mention them. But I love that you have cracked one of the seemingly more specific metaphors in such detail... it's really exciting to know this kind of stuff is there for the future events as well. We'll have to go over your findings and make sure we are interpreting them as best as we can. Won't that be fun.   Ok, so a minute for your specific ideas - I was just chatting with some other folks about the idea of the Wall or the Heart of Winter glacier melting after being struck my a meteorite. A similar idea is already floating out there, with the idea being the comet coming back and hitting the heart of winter theoretical glacier from which the milk water flows, and the Wall is actually a damn built in the past by greenseers who could see the future. My own ideas about the ice moon's impending destruction predict a flood also, which I was tending to interpret as the Wall melting. The "streaks of red fire" that turn to rivers of black ice in the cracks of the Wall which I am so fond of pointing out. Sounds like a meteor triggering an icy dark tide. Sounds like my kinda fucking ending.
So, the Twins an island, huh? That's also foreshadowed in the text when the Starks are at the Twins, that they can do a Riverrun thing and open sluice gates in the river to makes their castles islands. A new island in the north, that's kinda wild. And the new "Others" are dragon people? What happens to the icy others? Am I understanding this correctly?
Fucking Madam Barbrey. Goddamn.
Well I don't think they've given anything away, quite honestly. It's just a snapshot of if a battle between fire and ice happens, instead of some kind of compromise, what happens to the land. In this scenario, the Others win (and their human associates become the new rulers) with the people fighting on the side of fire becoming the new boogeyman on the other side of the Wall. What I really like here is that you've found something that matches in Sarnor. Another person showed me a really specific numerical parallel between Andalos (Hugor Hill) and the Iron Islands that took some work to figure out, but is concise. So there is definitely a detailed code here going on and I agree, specifically to do with the Dawn Age events that we couldn't know about. Yi Ti, in fact, might not be the future but the past as well as the future. Definitely the emphasis is on cycle and history repeating itself. As the person who figured out Andalos said, however, we pursue at our peril. I think I'm giving up now. Once I got started on track in the Yi Ti section it became a puzzle that I had to figure out, but I have more or less to my own satisfaction. It took forever, still not sure of all my interpretations, but I don't want to begin on another section! I would really like to hear your Sarnori parallel though.
What this doesn't touch, LmL, is the problems with the seasons. That could be much more closely tied to your astronomical scenarios, I think.
I wonder if we should start a thread on the World book? It seems to me that once people know there is much to be found in it, they might want to contribute their own observations of things that mirrored Westeros over in Essos's past?
Basically Essos's known past = Westeros's unknown past (and present/future? because of the cycle)
So this is my last post about this here on Sly Wren's thread! Sorry Sly Wren!
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 07:14 AM.

#172 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 10:39 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 22 Sept 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:
That is a very good point, Sly Wren, and good catches all round. I thought the same at first and still think so to a point. But it is pretty specific to a future (and past) cycle too. There are no White Walkers threatening the realm in this future/past history; they are associated with the rulers of it. Moreover, the history leading up to it mirrors key dynasties in the history leading up where we are in Westeros, then goes beyond it. The emphasis is on the cycle, I think, nothing changes in the Game of Thrones. It is showing just a potential future if this war is to be lost, as if Yi Ti has already been through it, and really it is the land that has suffered. It is also nearing the end of the ice supremacy, things are drying up after ice turned to water, paving the way for the return of the fire elements, the new Others. That is what happens in Ragnarok, too, if you think about it - fire and ice meet and the world is destroyed by water as the ice melts. So yes, it's a reflection of what's happening now too as foreshadowing and as pieces in a puzzle - Yi Ti shows us what the long-term result will be. I think it emphasizes that it doesn't matter who would win in a clash between fire and ice; the land loses. A theme Martin has been emphasizing throughout anyway, particularly in AFFC.
1. Fair enough--though I do think in a way the Others and those controlling them are winning at present.The Watch has failed. There's no Stark in Winterfell.
And then the moment at the start of Game: in the prologue, when the first Other appears:
Quote: Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.”He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.
The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.
They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.
As has been discussed elsewhere with both Voice of the First Men and Dances with Flagons, the Other is checking out the sword. Watching the light play on the blade. The pause is long enough that Will dares to hope. But after the Other has examined the blade, only after he's seen the light on it, only then do the rest of the Others come.
Waymar has the wrong sword. The sword that could defeat them is NOT there. They are winning--it's only the start and they are winning.
Waymar is a man of the Night's Watch--even Will sees that. But that is not remotely enough. Not without the right sword. The Watch is failing, fighting all the wrong battles. And now the Others have risen and no one is stopping them.
Quote: Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.
It's already over--the sword that could save them isn't there. Waymar's blade freezes--dead. The Other's dances, alive with light.
Quote: Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.
He's even fighting for the wrong king. Wrong king, wrong sword, no Stark in Winterfell, failed Watch, and the Sword of the Morning gone--no wonder the parry is lazy. They've won.
2. You and LmL know the World Book far better than I. I don't doubt that the symbolism of Yi Ti can be read as a potential future if the Others win. But I think right now, they really are winning. They are just moving so quietly, almost no one's paying proper attention. Like they sneak up on Waymar. And Will, is too frightened to speak. The Watch has failed.
As you said, "nothing changes in the Game of Thrones"--it's the big battles that matter. This tiny moment north of the Wall is the key. And the Others are winning.
Because the right sword isn't there (sorry--I have swords on the brain. . . )
Lady Barbrey, on 22 Sept 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:
Why do I jump to this? Because the Others rule Westeros if they win, and not everyone dies. They have a line of emperors or kings that don't melt. So they are allied with or controlled by humans of some kind, human-Others much like the Valyrians are human-Dragons. Humans do survive. It's the land that is destroyed.
Yup! I buy the "Others are controlled/built/working for someone else" theory hook, line, and sinker. They are the opposite/ice version of the dragons. Requiring blood sacrifice for generation.
Who's controlling them? I'm still thinking a faction of the children--with a human greenseer. Human intent mixed with magical CotF intent--maybe. And that's where the potential line of "rulers" comes into play. I think.
ETA: Just one quick question: you said above that the ~~ice supremacy fails in the Yi TI scenario and the fire rises~~. CORRECTION: The ice wins and the fire becomes the next bogeyman. But, as we agreed on above, the Icy Others and the Fiery Dragons are counterparts--controlled for the empire. So, if fire rises or ice rises--same basic problem, yes? Supremacy. Dominance.
Vs. Jon and the Sword of the Morning--a title of protection, not dominance.
Bottom line: Could what you are seeing be what happens when dominance wins out (cycles) vs. when protectors win? Or am I too far off in left-field-sword-land?
Edited by Sly Wren, 21 minutes ago.

#173 Sly Wren
Posted 42 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 22 Sept 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:
Anyway, I don't mean to dereail the thread. Just wanted to support your own theory about the sword of the morning. And that Jon is NOT ice or fire but a combination. I have a suspicion that if ice has a human avatar, as fire does with Dany, it must be Benjen. I mean who else can it be? Dany is from a generation on par with Benjen's, not Jon's. Dany comes from a line that became concentrated to birth her; so does Benjen, when his dad marries his cousin and brings two lines of Starks together. None of the Stark kids make sense as ice; they've got Catelyn (water) as their mother or Rhaegar as their dad. The iciest Stark in terms of bloodlines is Benjen. And why all these hints about "younger brothers", the GEoftDawn story, the valonquar, etc. For the Starks, the younger brother isn't Rickon (our shaggy dog story) or Bran in his tree, it's a generation back, the younger brother is Benjen. Dany is Jon's aunt, the younger sister; Benjen is his uncle, the younger brother. The symmetry just makes sense.
1. I like that first bolded--especially with your comments on fire and ice both being about dominance. Jon identities himself as a sword, but is learning from his first chapter in Game not to focus on dominance.
Quote: Jon swelled with pride. "Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I'm the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle." Game, Jon I.
Makes sense, given how much Jon wants the true greatsword Ice. But then he gets a lesson more to your point (I think):
Quote: Take me with you when you go back to the Wall," Jon said in a sudden rush. "Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will."
Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"
The point: Targaryen, dragon-based conquest is fleeting and self-destructive. That's the wrong hero for Jon--the young conqueror, focused on conquering something just to prove a point (the Targs had never been able to hold Dorne). The path of fire is no good.
So, Jon turns to the path of ice that defends against ice:
Quote: "I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."
He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?
"You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor."
"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."
"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."
"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.
"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."
Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"
Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity."
The point: Jon's not really an inheritor of Benjen's version of the Night's Watch. He's not the "son." He's going to transform the Watch (if he survives). Like Sam at the Black Gate--focus on the true purpose.
So, yes--Jon's not fire or ice--he's Dawn.
2. I agree that Benjen is the iciest living Stark. But am wondering what you make of the fact that Dany as the fiery one has dragons--which, as you pointed out above, are used, like the Others for dominance.
But Starks (at least not now) don't use Others to establish dynasties. Starks stopped the Others--or at least were instrumental in their stoppage. So, wouldn't the icy one be connected to using the Others for dominance?
3.
Lady Barbrey, on 22 Sept 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:
So this is my last post about this here on Sly Wren's thread! Sorry Sly Wren!
No worries on my side. I'm just enjoying the conversation. All good.

#174 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM
Sly Wren, on 22 Sept 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:
1. Fair enough--though I do think in a way the Others and those controlling them are winning at present.The Watch has failed. There's no Stark in Winterfell.
And then the moment at the start of Game: in the prologue, when the first Other appears:
Quote: Spoiler
As has been discussed elsewhere with both Voice of the First Men and Dances with Flagons, the Other is checking out the sword. Watching the light play on the blade. The pause is long enough that Will dares to hope. But after the Other has examined the blade, only after he's seen the light on it, only then do the rest of the Others come.
Waymar has the wrong sword. The sword that could defeat them is NOT there. They are winning--it's only the start and they are winning.
Waymar is a man of the Night's Watch--even Will sees that. But that is not remotely enough. Not without the right sword. The Watch is failing, fighting all the wrong battles. And now the Others have risen and no one is stopping them.
Quote: Spoiler
It's already over--the sword that could save them isn't there. Waymar's blade freezes--dead. The Other's dances, alive with light.
Quote: Spoiler
He's even fighting for the wrong king. Wrong king, wrong sword, no Stark in Winterfell, failed Watch, and the Sword of the Morning gone--no wonder the parry is lazy. They've won.
2. You and LmL know the World Book far better than I. I don't doubt that the symbolism of Yi Ti can be read as a potential future if the Others win. But I think right now, they really are winning. They are just moving so quietly, almost no one's paying proper attention. Like they sneak up on Waymar. And Will, is too frightened to speak. The Watch has failed.
As you said, "nothing changes in the Game of Thrones"--it's the big battles that matter. This tiny moment north of the Wall is the key. And the Others are winning.
Because the right sword isn't there (sorry--I have swords on the brain. . . )
The right sword is one that won't frost over, that doesn't reflect the moonlight. A burning sword, but one that drinks the light, maybe??   Nightbringer is coming to keep it's Oath, assholes....   (that's the Others as assholes, not the fans of Dawn as the LH's sword... )


#175 Sly Wren
Posted 22 September 2015 - 10:59 PM
LmL, on 22 Sept 2015 - 3:55 PM, said:
The right sword is one that won't frost over, that doesn't reflect the moonlight. A burning sword, but one that drinks the light, maybe??   Nightbringer is coming to keep it's Oath, assholes....   (that's the Others as assholes, not the fans of Dawn as the LH's sword... )
Or a burning sword that flames out brightly, without shadowed fire--like daylight. (Can a devil emoji represent Dawn? Should I ask the Pope?)
Like the sword in Jon's nightmare--no mention of the burning sword being shadowed fire. (Though the "mention" is tauntingly brief, so. . .)
Or are they worried the sword is the one that ends the night--and they are all going to be transformed (or whatever happens to Others when "Dawn takes them all"--do they turn into stone like Tolkien's trolls?)
One way or another--it's the sword they are looking at, not only the man. A sword they know how to recognize--I think.
One more thing re: Jon as some version/aspect of last hero needing Dawn:
Quote:Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.
For this reason, the Swords of the Morning are all famous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title. Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect. TWOIAF
"Boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim the storied sword and its title"--as Jon dreams he can earn Ice and be declared a true Stark. Not possible for the Starks' sword. But it is possible for Dawn. . .

176-180

#176 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:00 AM
Sly Wren, on 22 Sept 2015 - 9:59 PM, said:
Or a burning sword that flames out brightly, without shadowed fire--like daylight. (Can a devil emoji represent Dawn? Should I ask the Pope?)
Like the sword in Jon's nightmare--no mention of the burning sword being shadowed fire. (Though the "mention" is tauntingly brief, so. . .)
Or are they worried the sword is the one that ends the night--and they are all going to be transformed (or whatever happens to Others when "Dawn takes them all"--do they turn into stone like Tolkien's trolls?)
One way or another--it's the sword they are looking at, not only the man. A sword they know how to recognize--I think.
One more thing re: Jon as some version/aspect of last hero needing Dawn:
Spoiler
"Boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim the storied sword and its title"--as Jon dreams he can earn Ice and be declared a true Stark. Not possible for the Starks' sword. But it is possible for Dawn. . .
This makes me think the Ironmen, specifically the Harlaw's, wielder's of the valyrian steel sword Nightfall, will be on the opposing side of Jon and will fight with the Others. The Ironborn already participate in raising the dead a la the drowned men.

#177 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 12:39 PM
DarkSister1001, on 23 Sept 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:
This makes me think the Ironmen, specifically the Harlaw's, wielder's of the valyrian steel sword Nightfall, will be on the opposing side of Jon and will fight with the Others. The Ironborn already participate in raising the dead a la the drowned men.
Okay--I hadn't even come close to thinking of that. But that could make a lot of sense. Well done!
Nightfall has a moonstone pommel, yes? Moonstone--has a similar quality to milkglass when it comes to reflecting and transforming light. Like the Others' swords reflect light--milkglass and moonstone transform it somewhat.
Also, the Harlaw's castle--the Ten Towers. Mel is confused by her vision of the towers by the sea crumbling in a dark rising tide. Mel goes along with thinking it's Eastwatch, chalking the fact that it didn't look like Eastwatch up to the vagaries of prophecy. The Citadel has it listed as possibly being the Three Towers on the coast in the Reach. http://www.westeros....cies/Entry/5453
But House Harlaw--Ten Towers is actually tied to the Ironborn--dark seas rising over crumbling towers. Might tie in with why Martin brings the Ironborn in so much. Makes them key to the story. And they have the sword--Valyrian (dragon) steel with a moonstone pommel. Throw in that name--you'd think Ironborn House Harlaw would have named their sword after their scythe sigil, or a kracken, or something. "Nightfall"--awfully specific. This could have possibilities.
Do you know if the books say how House Harlaw got Nightfall? I can't remember. . .

ETA: There's an actual Battle of Harlaw in medieval Scotland--some of the details seem tied to some events in the novels. See what you think of this excerpt (from Wikipedia--take it for what it's worth):
The Battle of Harlaw (Scottish Gaelic: Cath Gairbheach) was a Scottish clan battle fought on 24 July 1411 just north of Inverurie in Aberdeenshire. It was one of a series of battles fought during the Middle Ages between the barons of northeast Scotland against those from the west coast.
The battle was fought to resolve competing claims to the Earldom of Ross, a large region of northern Scotland. Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany, Regent of Scotland, had taken control of the earldom as guardian of his niece Euphemia Leslie. This claim was contested by Donald, Lord of the Isles, who had married Euphemia's aunt Mariota. Donald invaded Ross with the intention of seizing the earldom by force.
First he defeated a large force of Mackays at the Battle of Dingwall. He captured Dingwall Castleand then advanced on Aberdeen with 10,000 clansmen. Near Inverurie he was met by 1,000–2,000 of the local gentry, many in armour, hastily assembled by the Earl of Mar. After a day of fierce fighting there was no clear victor; Donald had lost 900 men before retreating back to theWestern Isles, and Mar had lost 500. The latter could claim a strategic victory in that Aberdeen was saved, and within a year Albany had recaptured Ross and forced Donald to surrender. However Mariota was later awarded the earldom of Ross in 1424 and the Lordship of the Isleswould keep the title for much of the 15th century.
The ferocity of the battle gave it the nickname "Red Harlaw".Here's the link if you are curious: https://en.wikipedia...attle_of_Harlaw
Edited by Sly Wren, Today, 01:09 PM.

#178 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 02:16 PM
Sly Wren, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:
Okay--I hadn't even come close to thinking of that. But that could make a lot of sense. Well done!
Nightfall has a moonstone pommel, yes? Moonstone--has a similar quality to milkglass when it comes to reflecting and transforming light. Like the Others' swords reflect light--milkglass and moonstone transform it somewhat.
Also, the Harlaw's castle--the Ten Towers. Mel is confused by her vision of the towers by the sea crumbling in a dark rising tide. Mel goes along with thinking it's Eastwatch, chalking the fact that it didn't look like Eastwatch up to the vagaries of prophecy. The Citadel has it listed as possibly being the Three Towers on the coast in the Reach. http://www.westeros....cies/Entry/5453
But House Harlaw--Ten Towers is actually tied to the Ironborn--dark seas rising over crumbling towers. Might tie in with why Martin brings the Ironborn in so much. Makes them key to the story. And they have the sword--Valyrian (dragon) steel with a moonstone pommel. Throw in that name--you'd think Ironborn House Harlaw would have named their sword after their scythe sigil, or a kracken, or something. "Nightfall"--awfully specific. This could have possibilities.
Do you know if the books say how House Harlaw got Nightfall? I can't remember. . .
ETA: There's an actual Battle of Harlaw in medieval Scotland--some of the details seem tied to some events in the novels. See what you think of this excerpt (from Wikipedia--take it for what it's worth): Spoiler
Thanks! I've been re-reading the Ironborn chapters and their section in the World Book (developing a Euron theory) when I came across their VS swords. So House Harlaw has Nightfall.  Dalton Greyjoy (the Red Kraken) took it off a dead pirate. No idea when or where or how it went to the Harlaw's from Dalton. We do know that Dalton Greyjoy is the one that named it Nightfall.  So another special sword inexplicably changed houses.
And yes it has a moonstone pommel.
Ten Towers?! That's amazing! I always struggled with that vision of hers.
"What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger" = Oh shit.
Edited by DarkSister1001, Today, 02:30 PM.


#179 LmL
Posted Today, 06:48 PM
DarkSister1001, on 23 Sept 2015 - 1:16 PM, said:
Thanks! I've been re-reading the Ironborn chapters and their section in the World Book (developing a Euron theory) when I came across their VS swords. So House Harlaw has Nightfall.  Dalton Greyjoy (the Red Kraken) took it off a dead pirate. No idea when or where or how it went to the Harlaw's from Dalton. We do know that Dalton Greyjoy is the one that named it Nightfall.  So another special sword inexplicably changed houses.
And yes it has a moonstone pommel.
Ten Towers?! That's amazing! I always struggled with that vision of hers.
"What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger" = Oh shit.
Dalton Greyjoy seems to be an incarnation of the BSE / AA archetype. I'm planning on doing an essay about this, the details are pretty rich. And due has a black sword called Nightfall, with a moon-stone in the pommel? Yes, moonstones exhibit a phenomena called adularescence, but milkglass does not. Milkglass is opaque. There's a related thing called the Tyndall effect... but I don't think this is where Martin is going, myself. What I see here is a balck sword associated with Nightfall which has a moon-stone in the hilt. The Sword of there Morning has a diamond in its hilt (a white star in the constellation, I am referring to), while the sword of the evening. Nightfall if you will, is associated with moon stones. Moon meteors, I think is the idea. The sword made from moon meters caused Nightfall, was black steel, and was sidled by the "red kraken," aka Azor Ahai.
...who invaded Westeros by sea, just as Dalton Greyjoy did.
Most / all of the black v steel swords contain clues about the nature of AA's Lightbringer.
Red Rain. Nightfall. Lady Forlorn. Brightroar. Orphanmaker. Longclaw. Dark Sister, and most certainly Blackfyre. I have an essay coming along these lines.
Edited by LmL, Today, 06:50 PM.

#180 Sly Wren
Posted 5 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 23 Sept 2015 - 1:16 PM, said:
Thanks! I've been re-reading the Ironborn chapters and their section in the World Book (developing a Euron theory) when I came across their VS swords. So House Harlaw has Nightfall.  Dalton Greyjoy (the Red Kraken) took it off a dead pirate. No idea when or where or how it went to the Harlaw's from Dalton. We do know that Dalton Greyjoy is the one that named it Nightfall.  So another special sword inexplicably changed houses.
And yes it has a moonstone pommel.
Ten Towers?! That's amazing! I always struggled with that vision of hers.
"What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger" = Oh shit.
1. That name is still weird--you'd think an Ironborn would choose something--fiercer. I mean, Red Rain. That's an intense image. Nightfall--only seems intense if it really does reference the Long Night. Still, the sword is there. It isn't in the story with anything like what Dawn is, but that association between Valyrian steel and conquering (not defending)--that sword could make an appearance.
And I will keep an eye out for your upcoming Euron theory.
2. The Reader doesn't seem the sword-wielding type. Wonder what happens if anyone else gets their hands on Nightfall. I'm not yet sold on the idea that AA's sword is showing up in the present text. Rather, the myth gives a rough template--blood sacrifice to create weapons (figuratively and literally) can make powerful ones (slaying monsters). BUT--long term badness. And since the Ironborn have chosen the Dragon-method of conquest--long term badness seems like a distinct possibility.
3. Yes--when you said Harlaw I thought of the Ten Towers.
QUOTE: Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.
Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.
The "dark tide" "rising from the depths" really does have a "what is dead may never die" quality to it. Even more, perhaps with Patchface--Mel sees hims surrounded by skulls. And, in the vision, the towers (ten or otherwise) are going "under the sea." It seems clear-ish that the vision isn't Eastwatch. The Ten Towers are towers by the sea--a big expensive castle. Their destruction in whatever Euron's just got them all into--could definitely see that. How? Not even close to guessing.
4. The Ironborn have a random habit of picking up Valyrian steel and dragon eggs. Vs. Jon's earning (I think) Dawn--Dawn must be earned. Not won. Am thinking it will make a difference in the ethics of Martinlandia.
Ties into a discussion elsewhere re: "given and earned" vs. "taken and conquered." The Stark wolves are clearly given/left for the kids. The bond with the kids is really fast and intuitive. No conscious blood sacrifice (though the mother does die). But Dany's dragons--though they call to her, she takes the dragons. Kills to get them--literally.
Same with the Iron Throne--taking and conquering. Vs. The Lord Commander of the NW--chosen. Or Robb as King in the North (not "of" the North)--chosen by his banner men. Same with the Kingsmoot--though it gets twisted by Euron--they choose a conqueror. The taking seems to be a problem long term.

Sly Wren · September 29, 2015

181-185

#181 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 10:28 PM
LmL, on 23 Sept 2015 - 5:48 PM, said:
Dalton Greyjoy seems to be an incarnation of the BSE / AA archetype. I'm planning on doing an essay about this, the details are pretty rich. And due has a black sword called Nightfall, with a moon-stone in the pommel? Yes, moonstones exhibit a phenomena called adularescence, but milkglass does not. Milkglass is opaque. There's a related thing called the Tyndall effect... but I don't think this is where Martin is going, myself. What I see here is a balck sword associated with Nightfall which has a moon-stone in the hilt. The Sword of there Morning has a diamond in its hilt (a white star in the constellation, I am referring to), while the sword of the evening. Nightfall if you will, is associated with moon stones. Moon meteors, I think is the idea. The sword made from moon meters caused Nightfall, was black steel, and was sidled by the "red kraken," aka Azor Ahai.
...who invaded Westeros by sea, just as Dalton Greyjoy did.
Most / all of the black v steel swords contain clues about the nature of AA's Lightbringer.
Red Rain. Nightfall. Lady Forlorn. Brightroar. Orphanmaker. Longclaw. Dark Sister, and most certainly Blackfyre. I have an essay coming along these lines.
I'm liking this as a metaphor. And, as I said to Dark Sister above, that name is too tempting to ignore--though apparently I did just that on my first read. Humph.
Yes--Valyrian steel seems innately about conquering, blood sacrifice, and darkness. Vs. Dawn.
And I agree that the moonstones may be more symbol than magical component here--I'd be stunned beyond measure if Nightfall turned out to be AA's sword. But the idea of the sword's being tied with Night and thus the moon--the symbol holds much easier that way.

#182 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 10:53 PM
Sly Wren, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:28 PM, said:
I'm liking this as a metaphor. And, as I said to Dark Sister above, that name is too tempting to ignore--though apparently I did just that on my first read. Humph.
Yes--Valyrian steel seems innately about conquering, blood sacrifice, and darkness. Vs. Dawn.
And I agree that the moonstones may be more symbol than magical component here--I'd be stunned beyond measure if Nightfall turned out to be AA's sword. But the idea of the sword's being tied with Night and thus the moon--the symbol holds much easier that way.
There are only two swords which I think have any chance of being Azor Ahai's literal, actual Lightbringer: Ice, and Dawn. I don't think it's Dawn, unless we can figure out how a black sword is turned white. Of all the V steel swords, Ned's is the only contender. It's the most visible and prominent sword in the entire story, for one, introduced in the very first Winterfell scene. It's also used in many Lightbringer metaphor scenes, playing the role of Lightbringer. The two layers revealed by Tobho's attempts to color the steel indicate two materials that do not mix, and I have a detailed theory about what those colors mean and what materials are in the sword. Problem is, we don't get another attempted v steel dye-job to compare to. And obviously there would have to have been subterfuge involved, where Lightbringer was hidden away for thousands of years in the crypts, only brought out when V steel began flooding the market 400 years ago. Cat is our only source for the idea that Ice came from Valyria 400 years ago, but still, this seems like a longshot. More likely the sword is nowhere to be found, and the important thing is how to make one. I do tend to suspect all of the v steel swords have light-drinking moon meteors in them, which means any of them could become a lightbringer. Even still, Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper, is the one to watch, as we have discussed.   So Nightfall, Red Rain, Blackfyre - i think they are all just clues about the original black steel dragon sword, Lightbringer.

#183 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 12:24 AM
There is something off with the Ironborn. It's funny because when I did my God Emperor thing, all the names seemed to fit except the sea-green emperors, who later are the only ones to survive and work with the Others. I knew they were Greyjoys but their description didn't fit properly, and they didn't fit with the rest of the key. The sea green emperors are Jar Har, Jar Han and Jar Joq. I realized the pun eventually - they are jarring notes in the Key. Even those names - Harhan (like Harren)-Joq? A jarring joke? They do the same thing with those Norvoshi bells.
•    Noom - having a deep sound
•    Narrah - having a strong sound
•    Nyel - having a higher pitched sound
Backwards we have moon, Harran (Harren) again, and then - Leyn? Leyn makes no sense, it jars, unless we look at it sideways and think "lion". Then we have possibly a metaphor for Harren is the Lion of the Moon (Night). But not quite. A moon isn't the night, just a symbol of it A moon at its most basic level is associated with tides. These bells are ringers, and a ringer is a twin or a clone.  So we have a deviation here from the Lord of Night/Maid of Light again. This time not ice but the sea. Bells also make music, have their own song, but this music jars, and thus I would interpret that as the Ironborn are the jarring note not in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in the Song of the Earth.
They have the seastone chair - certainly another "jarring note" in Westeros because nowhere else did that black oily stone - associated with the Bloodstone Emperor- survive. Aegon the conqueror arrived on the very day Harren completed Harrenhal, as if in retaliation for all that tree-cutting and slavery so close to the God's Eye. The Ironborn interrupted the Song of the Earth at the God's Eye and opened the way for the Song of Ice and Fire to begin? And night will fall - Nightfall, black sword with moonstone pommel.
Figuring out that "jarring" pun also made me look at the other jarring note in my God Emperor list - the Baratheons, who fit in almost every way, except that the Indigo emperor apparently left no sons even from his concubines. But Robert did. Gendry, Edric Storm for two. Stormlords. Will the bastard(s) rise? I think this is an indication that one or more will if Stannis dies, and they should not be underestimated. They are spoilers in the game of ice and fire that did not exist the same way in the Yi Ti future scenario that led to devastation of the land and future rule by Other-associates.
Bastard Stormlords and alternative Sealords out of time - the jarring notes in an otherwise concise metaphorical list. A list that carries on with more emperors and eventually leads to apocalypse/Ranarok. Gendry/Edric Storm and Theon take on a little more importance in my eyes. Theon and his sister might turn the "tide" if they can shift Euron. Gendry/Edric are a force to be reckoned with.
Remember back at the beginning when Varys tells Illyrio, this is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was? Who did you all think the two players were? Was it the two of them as one player, against an unseen force as the second? For some reason, the first time I read this, I thought of Varys and Illyrio as the two players. But that would mean, if it's a game, they would be opponents although they seemed to be working together.
Then I saw this curious line in the Grasslands section of the World Book: "We hear as well of the lost city Lyber, where acolytes of a spider goddess and a serpent god fought an endless, bloody war." This is a reference to Fritz Leiber, and his novels about the unending game/time war fought between the spiders and the snakes. These were two factions, the Spiders and the Snakes, existing in the Big Time (outside of normal time), sending pawns and players into the past to try to change events in their favour. So while they are opponents, they are also allies of a sort, pitted against the natural order of events. We could ignore this as a one-off reference, but in fact in Illyrio and Varys, we have the spider and serpent imagery, and both of them playing a game with pawns, (and as pawns themselves?). Varys is powdery-white, and called a "spider". He has no connection to the Others that we know of but what do the Others ride on? Ice Spiders. Illyrio has a forked yellow beard, reminiscent of a serpent's forked tongue. He backs the Targaryans or Blackfyres, who ride on winged "Serpents". Moreover, by George changing the letters of Leiber's name to Lyber, we have a word similar enough to evoke the word labrys, and the ubiquitious labyrinths and double-headed axes in the series that share this root word. I'm not sure this last was meant, but there is a game board for two players in the World Book. It's the Lorathi coin with the labyrinth on it with two entrances. At one entrance is the moon, at the other end the sun. In the middle is a blank space with a piece of iron in it. Positioning the web weaving white spider at the white moon entrance, and the coiling yellow serpent at the (implied) yellow sun entrance, weaving and coiling their way through the maze to the blank centre, up for grabs, which is earth or Westeros - we get a rather fascinating look at the archetypes that I think have inspired the characters of Varys and Illyrio. I think a split or major reveal is coming that will show them to be opponents once we get a full look at what Varys has been weaving (as an archetype, but as a man I think he has been well-intentioned according to his lights). Ice and Fire - the destructive forces trying to claim the earth, the acolytes of each manipulated by a spider and a serpent in an endless bloody war.
Hope you don't mind me posting this - not everyone enjoys symbols but I know you guys won't kill it right off the bat and it comes from my thoughts on Nightfall the sword. The Lorathi Maze on the coin is like no other maze or labyrinth from real life I've seen or googled. Certainly there was never any division of mazes with a sun and moon on either side at entrances (or if you read it as half moon to full moon - which I don't in the context of this story - there is still no representation from real life). In real mazes, if there are two entrances/exits, there isn't usually a centre. Take a look at it if you've got time. It might be a metaphor for what's wrong in Westeros. But as it "is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was", I think the dichotomy of fire and ice might be misleading too. There has always been a third player - the Song of Earth - in opposition to both, but within that Song other players have been jeopardizing it, jarring it, in the first place - Sealords for sure.

#184 Ser Knute
Posted Today, 02:19 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
There is something off with the Ironborn. It's funny because when I did my God Emperor thing, all the names seemed to fit except the sea-green emperors, who later are the only ones to survive and work with the Others. I knew they were Greyjoys but their description didn't fit properly, and they didn't fit with the rest of the key. The sea green emperors are Jar Har, Jar Han and Jar Joq. I realized the pun eventually - they are jarring notes in the Key. Even those names - Harhan (like Harren)-Joq? A jarring joke? They do the same thing with those Norvoshi bells.
•    Noom - having a deep sound
•    Narrah - having a strong sound
•    Nyel - having a higher pitched sound
Backwards we have moon, Harran (Harren) again, and then - Leyn? Leyn makes no sense, it jars, unless we look at it sideways and think "lion". Then we have possibly a metaphor for Harren is the Lion of the Moon (Night). But not quite. A moon isn't the night, just a symbol of it A moon at its most basic level is associated with tides. These bells are ringers, and a ringer is a twin or a clone.  So we have a deviation here from the Lord of Night/Maid of Light again. This time not ice but the sea. Bells also make music, have their own song, but this music jars, and thus I would interpret that as the Ironborn are the jarring note not in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in the Song of the Earth.
They have the seastone chair - certainly another "jarring note" in Westeros because nowhere else did that black oily stone - associated with the Bloodstone Emperor- survive. Aegon the conqueror arrived on the very day Harren completed Harrenhal, as if in retaliation for all that tree-cutting and slavery so close to the God's Eye. The Ironborn interrupted the Song of the Earth at the God's Eye and opened the way for the Song of Ice and Fire to begin? And night will fall - Nightfall, black sword with moonstone pommel.
Figuring out that "jarring" pun also made me look at the other jarring note in my God Emperor list - the Baratheons, who fit in almost every way, except that the Indigo emperor apparently left no sons even from his concubines. But Robert did. Gendry, Edric Storm for two. Stormlords. Will the bastard(s) rise? I think this is an indication that one or more will if Stannis dies, and they should not be underestimated. They are spoilers in the game of ice and fire that did not exist the same way in the Yi Ti future scenario that led to devastation of the land and future rule by Other-associates.
Bastard Stormlords and alternative Sealords out of time - the jarring notes in an otherwise concise metaphorical list. A list that carries on with more emperors and eventually leads to apocalypse/Ranarok. Gendry/Edric Storm and Theon take on a little more importance in my eyes. Theon and his sister might turn the "tide" if they can shift Euron. Gendry/Edric are a force to be reckoned with.
Remember back at the beginning when Varys tells Illyrio, this is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was? Who did you all think the two players were? Was it the two of them as one player, against an unseen force as the second? For some reason, the first time I read this, I thought of Varys and Illyrio as the two players. But that would mean, if it's a game, they would be opponents although they seemed to be working together.
Then I saw this curious line in the Grasslands section of the World Book: "We hear as well of the lost city Lyber, where acolytes of a spider goddess and a serpent god fought an endless, bloody war." This is a reference to Fritz Leiber, and his novels about the unending game/time war fought between the spiders and the snakes. These were two factions, the Spiders and the Snakes, existing in the Big Time (outside of normal time), sending pawns and players into the past to try to change events in their favour. So while they are opponents, they are also allies of a sort, pitted against the natural order of events. We could ignore this as a one-off reference, but in fact in Illyrio and Varys, we have the spider and serpent imagery, and both of them playing a game with pawns, (and as pawns themselves?). Varys is powdery-white, and called a "spider". He has no connection to the Others that we know of but what do the Others ride on? Ice Spiders. Illyrio has a forked yellow beard, reminiscent of a serpent's forked tongue. He backs the Targaryans or Blackfyres, who ride on winged "Serpents". Moreover, by George changing the letters of Leiber's name to Lyber, we have a word similar enough to evoke the word labrys, and the ubiquitious labyrinths and double-headed axes in the series that share this root word. I'm not sure this last was meant, but there is a game board for two players in the World Book. It's the Lorathi coin with the labyrinth on it with two entrances. At one entrance is the moon, at the other end the sun. In the middle is a blank space with a piece of iron in it. Positioning the web weaving white spider at the white moon entrance, and the coiling yellow serpent at the (implied) yellow sun entrance, weaving and coiling their way through the maze to the blank centre, up for grabs, which is earth or Westeros - we get a rather fascinating look at the archetypes that I think have inspired the characters of Varys and Illyrio. I think a split or major reveal is coming that will show them to be opponents once we get a full look at what Varys has been weaving (as an archetype, but as a man I think he has been well-intentioned according to his lights). Ice and Fire - the destructive forces trying to claim the earth, the acolytes of each manipulated by a spider and a serpent in an endless bloody war.
Hope you don't mind me posting this - not everyone enjoys symbols but I know you guys won't kill it right off the bat and it comes from my thoughts on Nightfall the sword. The Lorathi Maze on the coin is like no other maze or labyrinth from real life I've seen or googled. Certainly there was never any division of mazes with a sun and moon on either side at entrances (or if you read it as half moon to full moon - which I don't in the context of this story - there is still no representation from real life). In real mazes, if there are two entrances/exits, there isn't usually a centre. Take a look at it if you've got time. It might be a metaphor for what's wrong in Westeros. But as it "is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was", I think the dichotomy of fire and ice might be misleading too. There has always been a third player - the Song of Earth - in opposition to both, but within that Song other players have been jeopardizing it, jarring it, in the first place - Sealords for sure.
That's quite intriguing Lady Barbrey. I need to initiate recall proceedings on my WOIAF book from my sister. I do recall reading about those things but hadn't noticed the subtle clues or made the connection(s).
I've been curious, I haven't gotten ahold of the last D&E novella (I expect to get the 3 of them together in the book being released in October) but I have read the first two but it's been awhile (had to check them out from the library). I wonder if there's clues in the novellas that pertain? If history is repeating itself, the World Book is certainly providing a lot of the Macro details but I wonder if there's some micro details within them? Perhaps more towards Illyrio and Varys than Harren and the Ironborn.
BTW, when you mentioned your "God Emperor thing" and the Key; is that something you've posted or was it your own notes, etc? I'd like to peruse...

#185 LmL
Posted Today, 03:06 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
There is something off with the Ironborn. It's funny because when I did my God Emperor thing, all the names seemed to fit except the sea-green emperors, who later are the only ones to survive and work with the Others. I knew they were Greyjoys but their description didn't fit properly, and they didn't fit with the rest of the key. The sea green emperors are Jar Har, Jar Han and Jar Joq. I realized the pun eventually - they are jarring notes in the Key. Even those names - Harhan (like Harren)-Joq? A jarring joke? They do the same thing with those Norvoshi bells.
•    Noom - having a deep sound
•    Narrah - having a strong sound
•    Nyel - having a higher pitched sound
Backwards we have moon, Harran (Harren) again, and then - Leyn? Leyn makes no sense, it jars, unless we look at it sideways and think "lion". Then we have possibly a metaphor for Harren is the Lion of the Moon (Night). But not quite. A moon isn't the night, just a symbol of it A moon at its most basic level is associated with tides. These bells are ringers, and a ringer is a twin or a clone.  So we have a deviation here from the Lord of Night/Maid of Light again. This time not ice but the sea. Bells also make music, have their own song, but this music jars, and thus I would interpret that as the Ironborn are the jarring note not in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in the Song of the Earth.
They have the seastone chair - certainly another "jarring note" in Westeros because nowhere else did that black oily stone - associated with the Bloodstone Emperor- survive. Aegon the conqueror arrived on the very day Harren completed Harrenhal, as if in retaliation for all that tree-cutting and slavery so close to the God's Eye. The Ironborn interrupted the Song of the Earth at the God's Eye and opened the way for the Song of Ice and Fire to begin? And night will fall - Nightfall, black sword with moonstone pommel.
Figuring out that "jarring" pun also made me look at the other jarring note in my God Emperor list - the Baratheons, who fit in almost every way, except that the Indigo emperor apparently left no sons even from his concubines. But Robert did. Gendry, Edric Storm for two. Stormlords. Will the bastard(s) rise? I think this is an indication that one or more will if Stannis dies, and they should not be underestimated. They are spoilers in the game of ice and fire that did not exist the same way in the Yi Ti future scenario that led to devastation of the land and future rule by Other-associates.
Bastard Stormlords and alternative Sealords out of time - the jarring notes in an otherwise concise metaphorical list. A list that carries on with more emperors and eventually leads to apocalypse/Ranarok. Gendry/Edric Storm and Theon take on a little more importance in my eyes. Theon and his sister might turn the "tide" if they can shift Euron. Gendry/Edric are a force to be reckoned with.
Remember back at the beginning when Varys tells Illyrio, this is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was? Who did you all think the two players were? Was it the two of them as one player, against an unseen force as the second? For some reason, the first time I read this, I thought of Varys and Illyrio as the two players. But that would mean, if it's a game, they would be opponents although they seemed to be working together.
Then I saw this curious line in the Grasslands section of the World Book: "We hear as well of the lost city Lyber, where acolytes of a spider goddess and a serpent god fought an endless, bloody war." This is a reference to Fritz Leiber, and his novels about the unending game/time war fought between the spiders and the snakes. These were two factions, the Spiders and the Snakes, existing in the Big Time (outside of normal time), sending pawns and players into the past to try to change events in their favour. So while they are opponents, they are also allies of a sort, pitted against the natural order of events. We could ignore this as a one-off reference, but in fact in Illyrio and Varys, we have the spider and serpent imagery, and both of them playing a game with pawns, (and as pawns themselves?). Varys is powdery-white, and called a "spider". He has no connection to the Others that we know of but what do the Others ride on? Ice Spiders. Illyrio has a forked yellow beard, reminiscent of a serpent's forked tongue. He backs the Targaryans or Blackfyres, who ride on winged "Serpents". Moreover, by George changing the letters of Leiber's name to Lyber, we have a word similar enough to evoke the word labrys, and the ubiquitious labyrinths and double-headed axes in the series that share this root word. I'm not sure this last was meant, but there is a game board for two players in the World Book. It's the Lorathi coin with the labyrinth on it with two entrances. At one entrance is the moon, at the other end the sun. In the middle is a blank space with a piece of iron in it. Positioning the web weaving white spider at the white moon entrance, and the coiling yellow serpent at the (implied) yellow sun entrance, weaving and coiling their way through the maze to the blank centre, up for grabs, which is earth or Westeros - we get a rather fascinating look at the archetypes that I think have inspired the characters of Varys and Illyrio. I think a split or major reveal is coming that will show them to be opponents once we get a full look at what Varys has been weaving (as an archetype, but as a man I think he has been well-intentioned according to his lights). Ice and Fire - the destructive forces trying to claim the earth, the acolytes of each manipulated by a spider and a serpent in an endless bloody war.
Hope you don't mind me posting this - not everyone enjoys symbols but I know you guys won't kill it right off the bat and it comes from my thoughts on Nightfall the sword. The Lorathi Maze on the coin is like no other maze or labyrinth from real life I've seen or googled. Certainly there was never any division of mazes with a sun and moon on either side at entrances (or if you read it as half moon to full moon - which I don't in the context of this story - there is still no representation from real life). In real mazes, if there are two entrances/exits, there isn't usually a centre. Take a look at it if you've got time. It might be a metaphor for what's wrong in Westeros. But as it "is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was", I think the dichotomy of fire and ice might be misleading too. There has always been a third player - the Song of Earth - in opposition to both, but within that Song other players have been jeopardizing it, jarring it, in the first place - Sealords for sure.
Well I'm glad there's at least on person who draws even more complex ideas out of ASOIAF than myself!!
Damn!  Evolett would really like this.   Anyway, a couple thoughts. First, the discordant note. This is the note which brought down the moon. That was the original disruption of balance, and it was definitely achieved through sound. Those dragon horns, and chanting. Just listen to this, the mother of all discordant notes:
But others were holding their tongues, or muttering asides to their neighbors. “No craven’s peace!” Ralf the Limper roared. Red Ralf Stonehouse swirled the Greyjoy banner and bellowed, “Victarion! VICTARION! VICTARION!” Men began to shove at one another. Someone flung a pinecone at Asha’s head. When she ducked, her makeshift crown fell off. For a moment it seemed to the priest as if he stood atop a giant anthill, with a thousand ants in a boil at his feet. Shouts of “Asha!” and “Victarion!” surged back and forth, and it seemed as though some savage storm was about to engulf them all. The Storm God is amongst us, the priest thought, sowing fury and discord.
Sharp as a swordthrust, the sound of a horn split the air.
Bright and baneful was its voice, a shivering hot scream that made a man’s bones seem to thrum within him. The cry lingered in the damp sea air:
aaaaRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
All eyes turned toward the sound. It was one of Euron’s mongrels winding the call, a monstrous man with a shaved head. Rings of gold and jade and jet glistened on his arms, and on his broad chest was tattooed some bird of prey, talons dripping blood.
aaaaRRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.
aaaaaaaRRREEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
It was a terrible sound, a wail of pain and fury that seemed to burn the ears. Aeron Damphair covered his, and prayed for the Drowned God to raise a mighty wave and smash the horn to silence, yet still the shriek went on and on. It is the horn of hell, he wanted to scream, though no man would have heard him. The cheeks of the tattooed man were so puffed out they looked about to burst, and the muscles in his chest twitched in a way that it made it seem as if the bird were about to rip free of his flesh and take wing. And now the glyphs were burning brightly, every line and letter shimmering with white fire. On and on and on the sound went, echoing amongst the howling hills behind them and across the waters of Nagga’s Cradle to ring against the mountains of Great Wyk, on and on and on until it filled the whole wet world.
And when it seemed the sound would never end, it did.
The hornblower’s breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left-Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who’d sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too. (AFFC, The Drowned Man)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That night, for the first time, he brought forth the dragon horn that the Crow’s Eye had found amongst the smoking wastes of great Valyria. A twisted thing it was, six feet long from end to end, gleaming black and banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel. Euron’s hellhorn. Victarion ran his hand along it. The horn was as warm and smooth as the dusky woman’s thighs, and so shiny that he could see a twisted likeness of his own features in its depths. Strange sorcerous writings had been cut into the bands that girded it. “Valyrian glyphs,” Moqorro called them.
That much Victarion had known. “What do they say?”
“Much and more.” The black priest pointed to one golden band. “Here the horn is named. ‘I am Dragonbinder,’ it says. Have you ever heard it sound?”
“Once.” One of his brother’s mongrels had sounded the hellhorn at the kingsmoot on Old Wyk. A monster of a man he had been, huge and shaven-headed, with rings of gold and jet and jade around arms thick with muscle, and a great hawk tattooed across his chest. “The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one.”
“And the man who blew the horn, what of him?”
“He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.” The captain thumped his chest. “The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale.”
“A true tale.” Moqorro turned the hellhorn, examining the queer letters that crawled across a second of the golden bands. “Here it says, ‘No mortal man shall sound me and live.’
”Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned. “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?”
“Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.” [...]
The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain’s cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water. (ADWD, The Iron Suitor)

186-190

#186 LmL
Posted Today, 03:10 AM
Second thought, that maze. Sun and moon on either side, and a piece of iron in the middle?   THAT is lIghtbringer, iron child of sun and moon! And in the middle of the maze - Ariadne stuff, sure, but also, maze makers! Who might be the same as the Old Ones, who live beneath Leng in underground cities which roughly match the descriptions of the maze maker cities. The Old Ones are in turn the horned greenseers, some of whom turned to fire magic - think Azor Ahai / BSE - and THEY are the ones who blew the horn and brought down the moon. So, to find such lightbringer symbolism in the middle of a maze seems like another bit of confirmation that the maze makers are the Old ones who is Azor Ahai who brought down the moon.
Man, I think I just blacked out for a second. Did something just happen?

#187 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 07:54 AM
LmL, on 24 Sept 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:
Second thought, that maze. Sun and moon on either side, and a piece of iron in the middle?   THAT is lIghtbringer, iron child of sun and moon! And in the middle of the maze - Ariadne stuff, sure, but also, maze makers! Who might be the same as the Old Ones, who live beneath Leng in underground cities which roughly match the descriptions of the maze maker cities. The Old Ones are in turn the horned greenseers, some of whom turned to fire magic - think Azor Ahai / BSE - and THEY are the ones who blew the horn and brought down the moon. So, to find such lightbringer symbolism in the middle of a maze seems like another bit of confirmation that the maze makers are the Old ones who is Azor Ahai who brought down the moon.
Man, I think I just blacked out for a second. Did something just happen?
You okay there, LmL? Recovered? I thought you might like the above! I knew you were thinking about sound, and a jarring note in the song of earth seemed right up your alley. Take a look at that Lorathi coin when you get a chance. The whole thing is made of iron I think so it's not like that one bar in the middle is unique, but it's not ordinary to have a bar like that in the middle of a labyrinth's centre. I looked at lots of images of mazes, old and new, and didn't see anything like it. Another jarring note. If you think of the middle as the earth (an easy leap with the sun and moon on either side of it), then it's the earth with something - foreign - in it, and a breached wall. Ha! Could very well be reaching. Someone could do a fine essay on the labyrinth symbolism - from Minoan Crete/story of Theseus/Minotaur/ - and the various ways it's used in the series. Ubiquitous as I said. Various things to be found in the centre from real life beliefs: wisdom, identity, a half-man monster, and connection to ancestors. All of our protagonists seem to be finding these things in labyrinths in visions or in structures, sometimes all of them at the same time (Dany in the HotU). The labyrinth of Knossos is sometimes said to be the palace of Knossos itself, and Cersei's fear that her half-man brother (Tyrion has tons of Minotaur symbolism) was wandering within King's Landing's walls and going to break out with an axe to kill Tommen was quite funny to me. Yet he does kill Tywin while wandering a maze of passages, and that may lead to wisdom yet, but seemed more like he killed something in himself.
I'm not quite on board with the horned greenseers and turning to fire magic. But I think a horn might have been involved in disrupting the Song of earth and thus the seasons. Some kind of supersonic sound that jarred the earth. Remember the Hodor=earth (song of earth), always humming tunelessly, wandering aimlessly, sometimes in a circle? theory I posted a while back? What drives him absolutely wild? A thunderstorm. The sound even more so than the lightning that precedes it. Bran describes the whole scene as cacophonic. Thanks for posting the horn scene. I had forgotten how traumatic it was! And that singing afterwards in High Valyrian - the song of fire? But we must be looking for something even worse, I think?
Edited by Lady Barbrey, 37 minutes ago.

#188 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 08:20 AM
Ser Knute, on 24 Sept 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:
That's quite intriguing Lady Barbrey. I need to initiate recall proceedings on my WOIAF book from my sister. I do recall reading about those things but hadn't noticed the subtle clues or made the connection(s).
I've been curious, I haven't gotten ahold of the last D&E novella (I expect to get the 3 of them together in the book being released in October) but I have read the first two but it's been awhile (had to check them out from the library). I wonder if there's clues in the novellas that pertain? If history is repeating itself, the World Book is certainly providing a lot of the Macro details but I wonder if there's some micro details within them? Perhaps more towards Illyrio and Varys than Harren and the Ironborn.
BTW, when you mentioned your "God Emperor thing" and the Key; is that something you've posted or was it your own notes, etc? I'd like to peruse...
I'm the same on D&E - I know I read two of them but not a third. I don't think there is anything about Illyrio or Varys in them because they wouldn't have been born yet. They're real people but with archetypes that now and then peak through. You see it in a number of the characters. Watch out for times when they go still for a second and then do something that's in character but "off" just a bit. Like Arya when she decides not to kill the Hound. She goes into Lady Justice mode - blind justice, weighing the scales - and decides to leave him to Fate. It's not her job. Maisie Williams did a terrific job of displaying that on the show.
I do know that Bloodraven turns up and that actually does give you quite a bit of information on a micro level about him. I wanted to point out about the Sword Nightfall and its moonstone pommel - the thing I associate with moonstone is Bloodraven's moonstone brooch in the D&E novels. It's the one identifying thing when he changes identities, so makes the reader wonder if it's working somewhat like Melisandre's rubies. I do associate moonstone with Bloodraven but don't know if that has any significance to the sword.
You can find the God Emperors of Westeros thread on the first page of the World of Ice and Fire forum on here. I've come a long way since posting that, but it gives you the basics of the key I used to decipher the rest of the Yi Ti section. I didn't find it generated enough interest for me to bother posting a huge long essay on the rest of the things I found in that section.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 08:59 AM.

#189 Lady Barbrey
Posted 53 minutes ago
LmL, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:
There are only two swords which I think have any chance of being Azor Ahai's literal, actual Lightbringer: Ice, and Dawn. I don't think it's Dawn, unless we can figure out how a black sword is turned white. Of all the V steel swords, Ned's is the only contender. It's the most visible and prominent sword in the entire story, for one, introduced in the very first Winterfell scene. It's also used in many Lightbringer metaphor scenes, playing the role of Lightbringer. The two layers revealed by Tobho's attempts to color the steel indicate two materials that do not mix, and I have a detailed theory about what those colors mean and what materials are in the sword. Problem is, we don't get another attempted v steel dye-job to compare to. And obviously there would have to have been subterfuge involved, where Lightbringer was hidden away for thousands of years in the crypts, only brought out when V steel began flooding the market 400 years ago. Cat is our only source for the idea that Ice came from Valyria 400 years ago, but still, this seems like a longshot. More likely the sword is nowhere to be found, and the important thing is how to make one. I do tend to suspect all of the v steel swords have light-drinking moon meteors in them, which means any of them could become a lightbringer. Even still, Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper, is the one to watch, as we have discussed.   So Nightfall, Red Rain, Blackfyre - i think they are all just clues about the original black steel dragon sword, Lightbringer.
I still don't understand the original Ice theory, or maybe I'm just not buying it. I thought it got melted on the iron throne. I think it even says so somewhere.
It would be rather funny if Lightbringer was in the midst of that mass and they had to melt it to get it out.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, 49 minutes ago.

#190 LmL
Posted 33 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 24 Sept 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:
I'm the same on D&E - I know I read two of them but not a third. I don't think there is anything about Illyrio or Varys in them because they wouldn't have been born yet. They're real people but with archetypes that now and then peak through. You see it in a number of the characters. Watch out for times when they go still for a second and then do something that's in character but "off" just a bit. Like Arya when she decides not to kill the Hound. She goes into Lady Justice mode - blind justice, weighing the scales - and decides to leave him to Fate. It's not her job. Maisie Williams did a terrific job of displaying that on the show.    I do know that Bloodraven turns up and that actually does give you quite a bit of information on a micro level about him. I wanted to point out about the Sword Nightfall and its moonstone pommel - the thing I associate with moonstone is Bloodraven's moonstone brooch in the D&E novels. It's the one identifying thing when he changes identities, so makes the reader wonder if it's working somewhat like Melisandre's rubies. I do associate moonstone with Bloodraven but don't know if that has any significance to the sword.   You can find the God Emperors of Westeros thread on the first page of the World of Ice and Fire forum on here. I've come a long way since posting that, but it gives you the basics of the key I used to decipher the rest of the Yi Ti section. I didn't find it generated enough interest for me to bother posting a huge long essay on the rest of the things I found in that section.
That's probably because you posted it in the TWOIAF area. You should repost in the main area with an updated version. Will get more love.
191-195
#191
Posted 11 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 24 Sept 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:
I still don't understand the original Ice theory, or maybe I'm just not buying it. I thought it got melted on the iron throne. I think it even says so somewhere.   It would be rather funny if Lightbringer was in the midst of that mass and they had to melt it to get it out.
Ned's Ice is 400 years old, supposedly, which means it predates the conquest by 100 years. That means whatever sword was Ice before the V steel one was not melted down in the Iron Throne. The original original Ice would presumably be from thousands of years ago when House Stark was founded. Also, the sword for the iron throne were a specific group of swords - I believe they were the ones from his conquest of Harrenhall. Aegon never fought the Starks and never claimed their swords. You might be thinking of the original crown of the Kings in the North, which Aegon took no one ever saw it again.
Separately, there a notion that the white sword, Dawn, was the original Ice of House Stark, like back during the time of the Long Night. "Ice" seems like a good name for a white sword as pale as milkglass. The LH may have wielded Dawn (Ice), and then the sword was returned to Starfall, much like Ned returns Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ.
As for Lightbringer, I think about that as the first dragonsteel, the prototype for Valyrian steel. It would probably look just V steel, so if its hiding anywhere, it's probably masquerading as V steel. If this is so, then I suspect it Ned's Ice would be the one.

#192 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:53 AM
Sly Wren, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:23 PM, said:
1. That name is still weird--you'd think an Ironborn would choose something--fiercer. I mean, Red Rain. That's an intense image. Nightfall--only seems intense if it really does reference the Long Night. Still, the sword is there. It isn't in the story with anything like what Dawn is, but that association between Valyrian steel and conquering (not defending)--that sword could make an appearance.
And I will keep an eye out for your upcoming Euron theory.
2. The Reader doesn't seem the sword-wielding type. Wonder what happens if anyone else gets their hands on Nightfall. I'm not yet sold on the idea that AA's sword is showing up in the present text. Rather, the myth gives a rough template--blood sacrifice to create weapons (figuratively and literally) can make powerful ones (slaying monsters). BUT--long term badness. And since the Ironborn have chosen the Dragon-method of conquest--long term badness seems like a distinct possibility.
3. Yes--when you said Harlaw I thought of the Ten Towers.
QUOTE: Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.
Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.
The "dark tide" "rising from the depths" really does have a "what is dead may never die" quality to it. Even more, perhaps with Patchface--Mel sees hims surrounded by skulls. And, in the vision, the towers (ten or otherwise) are going "under the sea." It seems clear-ish that the vision isn't Eastwatch. The Ten Towers are towers by the sea--a big expensive castle. Their destruction in whatever Euron's just got them all into--could definitely see that. How? Not even close to guessing.
4. The Ironborn have a random habit of picking up Valyrian steel and dragon eggs. Vs. Jon's earning (I think) Dawn--Dawn must be earned. Not won. Am thinking it will make a difference in the ethics of Martinlandia.
Ties into a discussion elsewhere re: "given and earned" vs. "taken and conquered." The Stark wolves are clearly given/left for the kids. The bond with the kids is really fast and intuitive. No conscious blood sacrifice (though the mother does die). But Dany's dragons--though they call to her, she takes the dragons. Kills to get them--literally.
Same with the Iron Throne--taking and conquering. Vs. The Lord Commander of the NW--chosen. Or Robb as King in the North (not "of" the North)--chosen by his banner men. Same with the Kingsmoot--though it gets twisted by Euron--they choose a conqueror. The taking seems to be a problem long term.
Funny as it is, The Reader doesn't have Nightfall.  It's in the possession of Ser Harras Harlaw of House Harlaw of Grey Garden, Rodrik's heir. I really can't see the Reader being on the "dark" side of a conflict. He's far to careful and educated. Unless it's a road-to-hell-was-paved-with-good-intentions kind of thing. He reminds me a lot of Ned. He may have even made an enemy of Crow's Eye since he spoke for Asha at the Kingsmoot and spoke against Euron's plans when Euron proposed taking all of Westeros. The tide over Ten Towers could be like Jojen's vision of the sea coming to WF. The other Ironmen may rise up against Ten Towers. I'm so glad you brought up that quote!
I do find it interesting and somewhat connected to your earned v taken theory that the Kingsmoot is a chance for them to choose someone worthy of ruling them (similar to how the wildlings follow a leader based on strength and character) but Euron seemed to have "stolen" away by killing Balon and then promising the IB something that I don't think he can deliver. "Balon was mad, Aeron was madder and Euron is maddest of them all."
Lady B - I find all of what you're saying very interesting. Kuddos! Honestly, I am only just now reading into the Bloodstone Emperor so I don't feel educated in it enough to speak intelligently. But I love what you're putting together and commend you.
LmL - Always love your stuff. Nothing like starting me day with a blown mind.

#193 Sly Wren
Posted 26 minutes ago
LmL, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:
More likely the sword is nowhere to be found, and the important thing is how to make one. I do tend to suspect all of the v steel swords have light-drinking moon meteors in them, which means any of them could become a lightbringer. Even still, Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper, is the one to watch, as we have discussed.   So Nightfall, Red Rain, Blackfyre - i think they are all just clues about the original black steel dragon sword, Lightbringer.
I agree.
The monstrous sword (blood sacrifice) that slays a monster--we've got a myth re: making one. And Oathkeeper is following that. I really think Ice was acquired in reference to Dawn. The symbol in remembrance of the original. Like the direwolf sigil.
And we see Ice and the direwolves in chapter one of Game--the symbols are falling away and the reality comes back.
LmL, on 24 Sept 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:
Spoiler
Separately, there a notion that the white sword, Dawn, was the original Ice of House Stark, like back during the time of the Long Night. "Ice" seems like a good name for a white sword as pale as milkglass. The LH may have wielded Dawn (Ice), and then the sword was returned to Starfall, much like Ned returns Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ
As for Lightbringer, I think about that as the first dragonsteel, the prototype for Valyrian steel. It would probably look just V steel, so if its hiding anywhere, it's probably masquerading as V steel. If this is so, then I suspect it Ned's Ice would be the one.
I agree again.
Though, it seems unlikely that original sword survived, it would be really cool if it shows up.
Lady Barbrey, on 24 Sept 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:
<snip>
I do know that Bloodraven turns up and that actually does give you quite a bit of information on a micro level about him. I wanted to point out about the Sword Nightfall and its moonstone pommel - the thing I associate with moonstone is Bloodraven's moonstone brooch in the D&E novels. It's the one identifying thing when he changes identities, so makes the reader wonder if it's working somewhat like Melisandre's rubies. I do associate moonstone with Bloodraven but don't know if that has any significance to the sword.
<snip>
That's a good catch! And one more reason to add to my distrust of Bloodraven.
Edited by Sly Wren, A minute ago.

#194 Sly Wren
Posted 11 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
There is something off with the Ironborn. It's funny because when I did my God Emperor thing, all the names seemed to fit except the sea-green emperors, who later are the only ones to survive and work with the Others. I knew they were Greyjoys but their description didn't fit properly, and they didn't fit with the rest of the key. The sea green emperors are Jar Har, Jar Han and Jar Joq. I realized the pun eventually - they are jarring notes in the Key. Even those names - Harhan (like Harren)-Joq? A jarring joke? They do the same thing with those Norvoshi bells.
•    Noom - having a deep sound
•    Narrah - having a strong sound
•    Nyel - having a higher pitched sound
Backwards we have moon, Harran (Harren) again, and then - Leyn? Leyn makes no sense, it jars, unless we look at it sideways and think "lion". Then we have possibly a metaphor for Harren is the Lion of the Moon (Night). But not quite. A moon isn't the night, just a symbol of it A moon at its most basic level is associated with tides. These bells are ringers, and a ringer is a twin or a clone.  So we have a deviation here from the Lord of Night/Maid of Light again. This time not ice but the sea. Bells also make music, have their own song, but this music jars, and thus I would interpret that as the Ironborn are the jarring note not in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in the Song of the Earth.
They have the seastone chair - certainly another "jarring note" in Westeros because nowhere else did that black oily stone - associated with the Bloodstone Emperor- survive. Aegon the conqueror arrived on the very day Harren completed Harrenhal, as if in retaliation for all that tree-cutting and slavery so close to the God's Eye. The Ironborn interrupted the Song of the Earth at the God's Eye and opened the way for the Song of Ice and Fire to begin? And night will fall - Nightfall, black sword with moonstone pommel.
Okay--this is all very cool. Not sure if I can buy the last bit yet about Harren's being the catalyst to Aegon's invasion--seems like he might have been part of it. But the question of why the Targs invaded only then vs. earlier--I'm still mulling that over and haven't settled at all.
But on the discord: the song of the earth does seem innately disrupted here by all of the elements you suggest. When Euron has that horn blown, it's pure discord, as the quotes LmL gave above show. Makes me rethink wolfmaid7's arguments on Heresy that the Children get taken in by human greenseers. That the humans throw the song of the earth off and create discord--and perhaps the Long Night. Human greenseers make the Children more powerful, but there may be a cost--and, as I said above, I don't trust Bloodraven.
So--the discordant notes. Like when Dany hears the crack that shakes the world in her pyre. Like the blowing of the dragon horn. These are notes about power vs. balance. Discord vs. Harmonia, as you've said before. I'm liking your metaphors here.
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
Spoiler: But as it "is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was", I think the dichotomy of fire and ice might be misleading too. There has always been a third player - the Song of Earth - in opposition to both, but within that Song other players have been jeopardizing it, jarring it, in the first place - Sealords for sure.
Reminds me of the beginning of the Silmarillion. Though there, the discord is always can always be incorporated into the universal song (if I'm remembering right). Which makes the discordant angry.
Seems a bit like what Asha vs. Euron is doing. Asha wants to incorporate the Old Way into peace and prosperity. Damphair is a fool--thinking Balon's "work is unfinished," not seeing that it's the problem. Asha is proposing a workable (not ideal--not sure we're getting an ideal any time soon in Martin's fallen world). compromise. Euron literally blows this apart with greater, deadly discord. Discord so great it can't be incorporated into the human system. Into the song of the earth.
Will have to give the coin and the labyrinth images a bit of a think. . but I'm liking where you are going.
Edited by Sly Wren, A minute ago.

#195 Sly Wren
Posted 2 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:
Funny as it is, The Reader doesn't have Nightfall.  It's in the possession of Ser Harras Harlaw of House Harlaw of Grey Garden, Rodrik's heir. I really can't see the Reader being on the "dark" side of a conflict. He's far to careful and educated. Unless it's a road-to-hell-was-paved-with-good-intentions kind of thing. He reminds me a lot of Ned. He may have even made an enemy of Crow's Eye since he spoke for Asha at the Kingsmoot and spoke against Euron's plans when Euron proposed taking all of Westeros. The tide over Ten Towers could be like Jojen's vision of the sea coming to WF. The other Ironmen may rise up against Ten Towers. I'm so glad you brought up that quote!
I missed the location of Nightfall on my re-read. But you are right--it's doesn't make sense for the Reader to engage in the dark side of the conflict. And, yes, he is a lot like Ned. Even his willingness to make Asha his heir--like Ned's getting Arya a dancing master. Rodrick seems at least somewhat willing to let Asha be who she is, recognize her strengths.
And I agree--the Ironmen rising against the Ten Towers makes sense in context of the Kingsmoot. How it will work? Not sure. But almost seems like a revenge/karmic reaction to what happened to Winterfell. The Ironborn start to drown each other. Will they rise harder and stronger, or just drown?
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:
I do find it interesting and somewhat connected to your earned v taken theory that the Kingsmoot is a chance for them to choose someone worthy of ruling them (similar to how the wildlings follow a leader based on strength and character) but Euron seemed to have "stolen" away by killing Balon and then promising the IB something that I don't think he can deliver. "Balon was mad, Aeron was madder and Euron is maddest of them all."
I agree.
That dragon horn moment reminds me of Dany's claiming her dragons in the pyre. She's just seen the dangers of blood rituals. During the tent ritual, she cries out "the cost is too high!" And yet she follows the call of the dragons and enters the pyre. The moment when Damphair hears the rusty hinge--a quieter version of Dany's hearing the crack that shakes the world.
The Ironborn have just seen what invading Westeros got them. Asha makes that very clear. They've just seen why the horn does to one who blows it. How horrible it is. And yet they embrace it. They embrace the discord.
The wrong kind of fire--vs. the fire in Ghost's eyes, different from the other fires. Like Dawn.
LmL

Sly Wren · September 29, 2015

191-195

#191 LmL
Posted 11 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 24 Sept 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:
I still don't understand the original Ice theory, or maybe I'm just not buying it. I thought it got melted on the iron throne. I think it even says so somewhere.   It would be rather funny if Lightbringer was in the midst of that mass and they had to melt it to get it out.
Ned's Ice is 400 years old, supposedly, which means it predates the conquest by 100 years. That means whatever sword was Ice before the V steel one was not melted down in the Iron Throne. The original original Ice would presumably be from thousands of years ago when House Stark was founded. Also, the sword for the iron throne were a specific group of swords - I believe they were the ones from his conquest of Harrenhall. Aegon never fought the Starks and never claimed their swords. You might be thinking of the original crown of the Kings in the North, which Aegon took no one ever saw it again.
Separately, there a notion that the white sword, Dawn, was the original Ice of House Stark, like back during the time of the Long Night. "Ice" seems like a good name for a white sword as pale as milkglass. The LH may have wielded Dawn (Ice), and then the sword was returned to Starfall, much like Ned returns Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ.
As for Lightbringer, I think about that as the first dragonsteel, the prototype for Valyrian steel. It would probably look just V steel, so if its hiding anywhere, it's probably masquerading as V steel. If this is so, then I suspect it Ned's Ice would be the one.

#192 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:53 AM
Sly Wren, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:23 PM, said:
1. That name is still weird--you'd think an Ironborn would choose something--fiercer. I mean, Red Rain. That's an intense image. Nightfall--only seems intense if it really does reference the Long Night. Still, the sword is there. It isn't in the story with anything like what Dawn is, but that association between Valyrian steel and conquering (not defending)--that sword could make an appearance.
And I will keep an eye out for your upcoming Euron theory.
2. The Reader doesn't seem the sword-wielding type. Wonder what happens if anyone else gets their hands on Nightfall. I'm not yet sold on the idea that AA's sword is showing up in the present text. Rather, the myth gives a rough template--blood sacrifice to create weapons (figuratively and literally) can make powerful ones (slaying monsters). BUT--long term badness. And since the Ironborn have chosen the Dragon-method of conquest--long term badness seems like a distinct possibility.
3. Yes--when you said Harlaw I thought of the Ten Towers.
QUOTE: Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.
Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.
The "dark tide" "rising from the depths" really does have a "what is dead may never die" quality to it. Even more, perhaps with Patchface--Mel sees hims surrounded by skulls. And, in the vision, the towers (ten or otherwise) are going "under the sea." It seems clear-ish that the vision isn't Eastwatch. The Ten Towers are towers by the sea--a big expensive castle. Their destruction in whatever Euron's just got them all into--could definitely see that. How? Not even close to guessing.
4. The Ironborn have a random habit of picking up Valyrian steel and dragon eggs. Vs. Jon's earning (I think) Dawn--Dawn must be earned. Not won. Am thinking it will make a difference in the ethics of Martinlandia.
Ties into a discussion elsewhere re: "given and earned" vs. "taken and conquered." The Stark wolves are clearly given/left for the kids. The bond with the kids is really fast and intuitive. No conscious blood sacrifice (though the mother does die). But Dany's dragons--though they call to her, she takes the dragons. Kills to get them--literally.
Same with the Iron Throne--taking and conquering. Vs. The Lord Commander of the NW--chosen. Or Robb as King in the North (not "of" the North)--chosen by his banner men. Same with the Kingsmoot--though it gets twisted by Euron--they choose a conqueror. The taking seems to be a problem long term.
Funny as it is, The Reader doesn't have Nightfall.  It's in the possession of Ser Harras Harlaw of House Harlaw of Grey Garden, Rodrik's heir. I really can't see the Reader being on the "dark" side of a conflict. He's far to careful and educated. Unless it's a road-to-hell-was-paved-with-good-intentions kind of thing. He reminds me a lot of Ned. He may have even made an enemy of Crow's Eye since he spoke for Asha at the Kingsmoot and spoke against Euron's plans when Euron proposed taking all of Westeros. The tide over Ten Towers could be like Jojen's vision of the sea coming to WF. The other Ironmen may rise up against Ten Towers. I'm so glad you brought up that quote!
I do find it interesting and somewhat connected to your earned v taken theory that the Kingsmoot is a chance for them to choose someone worthy of ruling them (similar to how the wildlings follow a leader based on strength and character) but Euron seemed to have "stolen" away by killing Balon and then promising the IB something that I don't think he can deliver. "Balon was mad, Aeron was madder and Euron is maddest of them all."
Lady B - I find all of what you're saying very interesting. Kuddos! Honestly, I am only just now reading into the Bloodstone Emperor so I don't feel educated in it enough to speak intelligently. But I love what you're putting together and commend you.
LmL - Always love your stuff. Nothing like starting me day with a blown mind.

#193 Sly Wren
Posted 26 minutes ago
LmL, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:
More likely the sword is nowhere to be found, and the important thing is how to make one. I do tend to suspect all of the v steel swords have light-drinking moon meteors in them, which means any of them could become a lightbringer. Even still, Ned's sword, now Oathkeeper, is the one to watch, as we have discussed.   So Nightfall, Red Rain, Blackfyre - i think they are all just clues about the original black steel dragon sword, Lightbringer.
I agree.
The monstrous sword (blood sacrifice) that slays a monster--we've got a myth re: making one. And Oathkeeper is following that. I really think Ice was acquired in reference to Dawn. The symbol in remembrance of the original. Like the direwolf sigil.
And we see Ice and the direwolves in chapter one of Game--the symbols are falling away and the reality comes back.
LmL, on 24 Sept 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:
Spoiler
Separately, there a notion that the white sword, Dawn, was the original Ice of House Stark, like back during the time of the Long Night. "Ice" seems like a good name for a white sword as pale as milkglass. The LH may have wielded Dawn (Ice), and then the sword was returned to Starfall, much like Ned returns Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ
As for Lightbringer, I think about that as the first dragonsteel, the prototype for Valyrian steel. It would probably look just V steel, so if its hiding anywhere, it's probably masquerading as V steel. If this is so, then I suspect it Ned's Ice would be the one.
I agree again.
Though, it seems unlikely that original sword survived, it would be really cool if it shows up.
Lady Barbrey, on 24 Sept 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:
<snip>
I do know that Bloodraven turns up and that actually does give you quite a bit of information on a micro level about him. I wanted to point out about the Sword Nightfall and its moonstone pommel - the thing I associate with moonstone is Bloodraven's moonstone brooch in the D&E novels. It's the one identifying thing when he changes identities, so makes the reader wonder if it's working somewhat like Melisandre's rubies. I do associate moonstone with Bloodraven but don't know if that has any significance to the sword.
<snip>
That's a good catch! And one more reason to add to my distrust of Bloodraven.
Edited by Sly Wren, A minute ago.

#194 Sly Wren
Posted 11 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
There is something off with the Ironborn. It's funny because when I did my God Emperor thing, all the names seemed to fit except the sea-green emperors, who later are the only ones to survive and work with the Others. I knew they were Greyjoys but their description didn't fit properly, and they didn't fit with the rest of the key. The sea green emperors are Jar Har, Jar Han and Jar Joq. I realized the pun eventually - they are jarring notes in the Key. Even those names - Harhan (like Harren)-Joq? A jarring joke? They do the same thing with those Norvoshi bells.
•    Noom - having a deep sound
•    Narrah - having a strong sound
•    Nyel - having a higher pitched sound
Backwards we have moon, Harran (Harren) again, and then - Leyn? Leyn makes no sense, it jars, unless we look at it sideways and think "lion". Then we have possibly a metaphor for Harren is the Lion of the Moon (Night). But not quite. A moon isn't the night, just a symbol of it A moon at its most basic level is associated with tides. These bells are ringers, and a ringer is a twin or a clone.  So we have a deviation here from the Lord of Night/Maid of Light again. This time not ice but the sea. Bells also make music, have their own song, but this music jars, and thus I would interpret that as the Ironborn are the jarring note not in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in the Song of the Earth.
They have the seastone chair - certainly another "jarring note" in Westeros because nowhere else did that black oily stone - associated with the Bloodstone Emperor- survive. Aegon the conqueror arrived on the very day Harren completed Harrenhal, as if in retaliation for all that tree-cutting and slavery so close to the God's Eye. The Ironborn interrupted the Song of the Earth at the God's Eye and opened the way for the Song of Ice and Fire to begin? And night will fall - Nightfall, black sword with moonstone pommel.
Okay--this is all very cool. Not sure if I can buy the last bit yet about Harren's being the catalyst to Aegon's invasion--seems like he might have been part of it. But the question of why the Targs invaded only then vs. earlier--I'm still mulling that over and haven't settled at all.
But on the discord: the song of the earth does seem innately disrupted here by all of the elements you suggest. When Euron has that horn blown, it's pure discord, as the quotes LmL gave above show. Makes me rethink wolfmaid7's arguments on Heresy that the Children get taken in by human greenseers. That the humans throw the song of the earth off and create discord--and perhaps the Long Night. Human greenseers make the Children more powerful, but there may be a cost--and, as I said above, I don't trust Bloodraven.
So--the discordant notes. Like when Dany hears the crack that shakes the world in her pyre. Like the blowing of the dragon horn. These are notes about power vs. balance. Discord vs. Harmonia, as you've said before. I'm liking your metaphors here.
Lady Barbrey, on 23 Sept 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:
Spoiler: But as it "is no longer a game for two players, if it ever was", I think the dichotomy of fire and ice might be misleading too. There has always been a third player - the Song of Earth - in opposition to both, but within that Song other players have been jeopardizing it, jarring it, in the first place - Sealords for sure.
Reminds me of the beginning of the Silmarillion. Though there, the discord is always can always be incorporated into the universal song (if I'm remembering right). Which makes the discordant angry.
Seems a bit like what Asha vs. Euron is doing. Asha wants to incorporate the Old Way into peace and prosperity. Damphair is a fool--thinking Balon's "work is unfinished," not seeing that it's the problem. Asha is proposing a workable (not ideal--not sure we're getting an ideal any time soon in Martin's fallen world). compromise. Euron literally blows this apart with greater, deadly discord. Discord so great it can't be incorporated into the human system. Into the song of the earth.
Will have to give the coin and the labyrinth images a bit of a think. . but I'm liking where you are going.
Edited by Sly Wren, A minute ago.

#195 Sly Wren
Posted 2 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:
Funny as it is, The Reader doesn't have Nightfall.  It's in the possession of Ser Harras Harlaw of House Harlaw of Grey Garden, Rodrik's heir. I really can't see the Reader being on the "dark" side of a conflict. He's far to careful and educated. Unless it's a road-to-hell-was-paved-with-good-intentions kind of thing. He reminds me a lot of Ned. He may have even made an enemy of Crow's Eye since he spoke for Asha at the Kingsmoot and spoke against Euron's plans when Euron proposed taking all of Westeros. The tide over Ten Towers could be like Jojen's vision of the sea coming to WF. The other Ironmen may rise up against Ten Towers. I'm so glad you brought up that quote!
I missed the location of Nightfall on my re-read. But you are right--it's doesn't make sense for the Reader to engage in the dark side of the conflict. And, yes, he is a lot like Ned. Even his willingness to make Asha his heir--like Ned's getting Arya a dancing master. Rodrick seems at least somewhat willing to let Asha be who she is, recognize her strengths.
And I agree--the Ironmen rising against the Ten Towers makes sense in context of the Kingsmoot. How it will work? Not sure. But almost seems like a revenge/karmic reaction to what happened to Winterfell. The Ironborn start to drown each other. Will they rise harder and stronger, or just drown?
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:
I do find it interesting and somewhat connected to your earned v taken theory that the Kingsmoot is a chance for them to choose someone worthy of ruling them (similar to how the wildlings follow a leader based on strength and character) but Euron seemed to have "stolen" away by killing Balon and then promising the IB something that I don't think he can deliver. "Balon was mad, Aeron was madder and Euron is maddest of them all."
I agree.
That dragon horn moment reminds me of Dany's claiming her dragons in the pyre. She's just seen the dangers of blood rituals. During the tent ritual, she cries out "the cost is too high!" And yet she follows the call of the dragons and enters the pyre. The moment when Damphair hears the rusty hinge--a quieter version of Dany's hearing the crack that shakes the world.
The Ironborn have just seen what invading Westeros got them. Asha makes that very clear. They've just seen why the horn does to one who blows it. How horrible it is. And yet they embrace it. They embrace the discord.
The wrong kind of fire--vs. the fire in Ghost's eyes, different from the other fires. Like Dawn.

196-200

#196 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 02:03 PM
Sly Wren, on 24 Sept 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:
I missed the location of Nightfall on my re-read. But you are right--it's doesn't make sense for the Reader to engage in the dark side of the conflict. And, yes, he is a lot like Ned. Even his willingness to make Asha his heir--like Ned's getting Arya a dancing master. Rodrick seems at least somewhat willing to let Asha be who she is, recognize her strengths.
And I agree--the Ironmen rising against the Ten Towers makes sense in context of the Kingsmoot. How it will work? Not sure. But almost seems like a revenge/karmic reaction to what happened to Winterfell. The Ironborn start to drown each other. Will they rise harder and stronger, or just drown?
I agree.
That dragon horn moment reminds me of Dany's claiming her dragons in the pyre. She's just seen the dangers of blood rituals. During the tent ritual, she cries out "the cost is too high!" And yet she follows the call of the dragons and enters the pyre. The moment when Damphair hears the rusty hinge--a quieter version of Dany's hearing the crack that shakes the world.
The Ironborn have just seen what invading Westeros got them. Asha makes that very clear. They've just seen why the horn does to one who blows it. How horrible it is. And yet they embrace it. They embrace the discord.
The wrong kind of fire--vs. the fire in Ghost's eyes, different from the other fires. Like Dawn.
1) Shit's gettin' deep, yo.
2) LOVE your Asha and Arya parallel. Badass ladies! And bless Ned & Rodrik for supporting them the way they did.
3) Damphairs rusty hinge - Damn. Awesome connection (though you may have just destroyed my Euron theory, lol). I'm gonna need to go back and read that chapter of Danys. Sidenote - MMD was the only blood sacrifice, right? Rhaego and Drogo's stallion were sacrificed to keep Drogo alive. Dany mercy killed Drogo. And then MMD, eggs and a dead Drogo were in the pyre before Dany walked in.
4) Vic seems very disturbed by the sound of the horn and the bleeding bird (eagle? crow?) on the chest of the man blowing it.

#197 Ser Knute
Posted Today, 02:45 PM
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 1:03 PM, said:
1) Shit's gettin' deep, yo.
2) LOVE your Asha and Arya parallel. Badass ladies! And bless Ned & Rodrik for supporting them the way they did.
3) Damphairs rusty hinge - Damn. Awesome connection (though you may have just destroyed my Euron theory, lol). I'm gonna need to go back and read that chapter of Danys. Sidenote - MMD was the only blood sacrifice, right? Rhaego and Drogo's stallion were sacrificed to keep Drogo alive. Dany mercy killed Drogo. And then MMD, eggs and a dead Drogo were in the pyre before Dany walked in.
4) Vic seems very disturbed by the sound of the horn and the bleeding bird (eagle? crow?) on the chest of the man blowing it.
T'was described as a Bird of Prey, not specifically stated which though.
Eagle
Osprey
Kite Hawk
Harrier
Vulture
Falcon
Owl
I'm not sure which is the more applicable to the Ironborn or the horn-blower as it were. I'll leave that to you all as I have to run real quick, but I'll look in later. Very cool stuff.
Edited by Ser Knute, Today, 02:46 PM.

#198 Brianpowers
Posted Today, 02:55 PM
Dayne literally means Worthy. Jon wants to be worthy of Longclaw, that is why he practices all the time with it.
#199 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 03:54 PM
Ser Knute, on 24 Sept 2015 - 1:45 PM, said:
T'was described as a Bird of Prey, not specifically stated which though.
Eagle
Osprey
Kite Hawk
Harrier
Vulture
Falcon
Owl
I'm not sure which is the more applicable to the Ironborn or the horn-blower as it were. I'll leave that to you all as I have to run real quick, but I'll look in later. Very cool stuff.
Thanks for the list. Not sure if the specific type was left off intentionally or if it's unimportant. There's no info on where Cragorn came from so we can't even deduce it.
Sly - Back to your main topic and possibly making some more connections...off the top of my head the NW, Wildlings and Ironborn all choose their leader. Jon has been picked to lead two of those three. Not to shabby. What other groups pick their own ruler?

#200 Sly Wren
Posted 4 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 1:03 PM, said:
1) Shit's gettin' deep, yo.
2) LOVE your Asha and Arya parallel. Badass ladies! And bless Ned & Rodrik for supporting them the way they did.
3) Damphairs rusty hinge - Damn. Awesome connection (though you may have just destroyed my Euron theory, lol). I'm gonna need to go back and read that chapter of Danys. Sidenote - MMD was the only blood sacrifice, right? Rhaego and Drogo's stallion were sacrificed to keep Drogo alive. Dany mercy killed Drogo. And then MMD, eggs and a dead Drogo were in the pyre before Dany walked in.
4) Vic seems very disturbed by the sound of the horn and the bleeding bird (eagle? crow?) on the chest of the man blowing it.
1 and 2: Cheers!
3. I am still not sure what the rusty hinge exactly is. For some reason, I always think of Davy Jones' locker opening when I read that passage--and I'm pretty sure that's not it. What's your Euron theory?
Am wondering if it has something to do with Patchface's "under the sea" fugue. Something's opening that should not be opened. But I need to do a deeper scan to get anywhere on that.
And on the sacrifice--yes, Mirri was the living sacrifice. No idea how to factor in Rhaego and Drogo--can you have pre-killed sacrifices? But in the HotU, Dany sees a dragon coming out of Mirri's head--so, seems like Mirri's life paid for at least one dragon.
4. Hadn't thought of the bird--but you're right. They note that the bird and its feathers are bleeding vs. saying the man's chest was bleeding. Odd--bird of prey. So, a natural predator killed to summon a greater, unnatural one? That's just me free-associating. No idea what to do there.
But it puts me back in mind of what you were saying about Arya and Asha--both are violent, but have some sense of "rightness"--though I'm still really worried about Arya. Asha is not going for a perfect solution (balance, song of the earth, etc.). She's not interested in that. But going back to a way that the Ironborn can thrive. Euron blows that apart with an unnatural weapon and self-destructive plan. Seems like if there's any hope for the Ironborn, it was Asha.
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:
Sly - Back to your main topic and possibly making some more connections...off the top of my head the NW, Wildlings and Ironborn all choose their leader. Jon has been picked to lead two of those three. Not to shabby. What other groups pick their own ruler?
Good point!
As for others who choose: the Dothraki only follow the strongest. The Braavosi Sealord position isn't hereditary--it's fought for. Everyone else seems to have a nobility-based leadership. And, of course, the Sword of the Morning. Though that's less ruling and more guarding. Can you think of anything else?
The North has traces--King in the North, King of Winter--still, its hereditary.

201-205

#201 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 06:44 PM
Brianpowers, on 24 Sept 2015 - 1:55 PM, said:
Dayne literally means Worthy. Jon wants to be worthy of Longclaw, that is why he practices all the time with it.
Dayne is also a form of the old/middle English "dayn" --a plural of day (won't bore you with explaining how middle English plurals work). So, literally, the Daynes are the Days--with Dawn.
Jon seems a bit uncomfortable with Longclaw, though. Not like he's feeling unworthy, more like it's not quite right. He wants Ice. The only time I can think of his feeling unworthy of Longclaw is when he's about to desert and leaves Longclaw behind so as not to further insult Mormont.
Are you thinking of something specific re: worthiness for Longclaw?

#202 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 06:50 PM
The bleeding bird might be a way of showing the forging of Lightbringer. The bleeding star is the bleeding bird. The horn blowing, if it brought down the moon, was part of the forging of Lightbringer in the heavens. When it was blown, the star bled and hit the moon. Which in turn bled, creating fiery dragon meteors (thousands of bleeding stars). The crows and ravens often serve as meteor stand ins, since they are black, they fly, and carry messages and omens. Thus, you have to consider the possibility that the bleeding bird is a clue to tell us the horn made the star (comet) bleed.

#203 DarkSister1001
Posted Yesterday, 07:00 PM
Sly Wren, on 24 Sept 2015 - 5:40 PM, said:
1 and 2: Cheers!
3. I am still not sure what the rusty hinge exactly is. For some reason, I always think of Davy Jones' locker opening when I read that passage--and I'm pretty sure that's not it. What's your Euron theory?
Am wondering if it has something to do with Patchface's "under the sea" fugue. Something's opening that should not be opened. But I need to do a deeper scan to get anywhere on that.
And on the sacrifice--yes, Mirri was the living sacrifice. No idea how to factor in Rhaego and Drogo--can you have pre-killed sacrifices? But in the HotU, Dany sees a dragon coming out of Mirri's head--so, seems like Mirri's life paid for at least one dragon.
4. Hadn't thought of the bird--but you're right. They note that the bird and its feathers are bleeding vs. saying the man's chest was bleeding. Odd--bird of prey. So, a natural predator killed to summon a greater, unnatural one? That's just me free-associating. No idea what to do there.
But it puts me back in mind of what you were saying about Arya and Asha--both are violent, but have some sense of "rightness"--though I'm still really worried about Arya. Asha is not going for a perfect solution (balance, song of the earth, etc.). She's not interested in that. But going back to a way that the Ironborn can thrive. Euron blows that apart with an unnatural weapon and self-destructive plan. Seems like if there's any hope for the Ironborn, it was Asha.
Good point!
As for others who choose: the Dothraki only follow the strongest. The Braavosi Sealord position isn't hereditary--it's fought for. Everyone else seems to have a nobility-based leadership. And, of course, the Sword of the Morning. Though that's less ruling and more guarding. Can you think of anything else?
The North has traces--King in the North, King of Winter--still, its hereditary.
In a nut shell, Euron was like Bran and tried to skinchange Aeron. I did a quick "hinge" search and the screaming iron ones seem to be in places that characters aren't supposed to go (but that was only a VERY quick search, I don't have it all worked out yet). There's loads of evidence that Euron has the gift but as we know, all his gift's are poisoned. I've read the theories that he molested Damphair but I believe there's enough info to clarify that the perversion was in a mental fashion and not a sexual one. I believe that BR found out and found Crow's Eye unworthy of such training and possibly afraid of what he could/would do leading Crow's Eye to be one of the impaled dreamers.
Bran went through a LOT to get where he is. It was a difficult journey. He lost almost everyone he loved. Could be another self sacrifice = worthiness of a big gift situation.
I agree, Asha is their only hope. I can't wait to see what's in store for her and Theon.
I thought about Robb too. That ones a little trickier to stick. Yes his men chose him to be their king, but would they have chosen him specifically had he not been Lord of WF, their liege?
I almost forgot about the Dorthraki and Braavosi Sealord! Dang. I think in the WoW we'll see the Dorthraki hoard chose her to lead. I figured there were some in Essos, but I'm not as well versed in that continent as I am Westeros. lol
I got some reading to do tonight! (After HEROES, of course)

#204 Brianpowers
Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM
Sly Wren, on 24 Sept 2015 - 5:44 PM, said:
Dayne is also a form of the old/middle English "dayn" --a plural of day (won't bore you with explaining how middle English plurals work). So, literally, the Daynes are the Days--with Dawn.   Jon seems a bit uncomfortable with Longclaw, though. Not like he's feeling unworthy, more like it's not quite right. He wants Ice. The only time I can think of his feeling unworthy of Longclaw is when he's about to desert and leaves Longclaw behind so as not to further insult Mormont.    Are you thinking of something specific re: worthiness for Longclaw?
Just that Dawn is only bestowed upon worthy knights of house Dayne, and how Jon wants to be a good enough swordsman to have a Valyrian sword. Basically that he wants to be as good a swordsman as a Valyrian steel sword deserves.

#205 Sly Wren
Posted 17 minutes ago
LmL, on 24 Sept 2015 - 5:50 PM, said:
The bleeding bird might be a way of showing the forging of Lightbringer. The bleeding star is the bleeding bird. The horn blowing, if it brought down the moon, was part of the forging of Lightbringer in the heavens. When it was blown, the star bled and hit the moon. Which in turn bled, creating fiery dragon meteors (thousands of bleeding stars). The crows and ravens often serve as meteor stand ins, since they are black, they fly, and carry messages and omens. Thus, you have to consider the possibility that the bleeding bird is a clue to tell us the horn made the star (comet) bleed.
Nice! Not sold on the horn's being able to affect the meteor, but the symbolism of the horn's being tied to the same bloody magic that the commit seems to herald--I like it.
One other thought--ravens and crows as carrying the spirits of singers. But that dragon horn, as Lady Barbrey said earlier, is a far cry from the song of the earth. Destructive, maybe, to its messengers? To its magics? Hmmm--I'm still in free association mode on this.
Brianpowers, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:06 PM, said:
Just that Dawn is only bestowed upon worthy knights of house Dayne, and how Jon wants to be a good enough swordsman to have a Valyrian sword. Basically that he wants to be as good a swordsman as a Valyrian steel sword deserves.
Good point. Jon does want to be a good swordsman and at times instinctively reaches for Longclaw. Though it fails him at the end of Dance.
Still, he really does want the original sword, Ice, not Longclaw. Ice, the father's sword, is the one he wants to be worthy of. Longclaw doesn't quite cut it.
Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. "Valyrian steel," he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. Game, Jon VIII.
He seems associates Longclaw with the horror of the wights. He's only celebratory with Longclaw when he shows it to Ghost, and then, only because it has the wolf pommel.
Spoiler: That grim thought soured Jon's fragile mood. "I need to see Hobb about the Old Bear's supper," he announced brusquely, sliding Longclaw back into its scabbard. His friends meant well, but they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers. Nor did they know of the fighting in the riverlands. How could they hope to comprehend? He turned away from them abruptly and strode off, sullen. Pyp called after him, but Jon paid him no mind.
Spoiler: They had moved him back to his old cell in tumbledown Hardin's Tower after the fire, and it was there he returned. Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you." Game Jon VII

Sly Wren · November 10, 2015

Okay--so as promised, to restore the rest of Death to Dawn #2, just in case you want your content:

Here's 206-210:

#206 Sly Wren
Posted 4 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:00 PM, said:
In a nut shell, Euron was like Bran and tried to skinchange Aeron. I did a quick "hinge" search and the screaming iron ones seem to be in places that characters aren't supposed to go (but that was only a VERY quick search, I don't have it all worked out yet). There's loads of evidence that Euron has the gift but as we know, all his gift's are poisoned. I've read the theories that he molested Damphair but I believe there's enough info to clarify that the perversion was in a mental fashion and not a sexual one. I believe that BR found out and found Crow's Eye unworthy of such training and possibly afraid of what he could/would do leading Crow's Eye to be one of the impaled dreamers.
Okay--I'm liking this a lot. Is this in any way tied to that weird POV shift in the chapter where Victarion loses it on board his ship? Or whether or not Euron was skin-changing the man who blew the horn? Blood sacrifice by bad music lesson, vs. by bonfire a la Dany.
Yes, I've seen the Euron=failed BR candidate idea bandied about. "Unworthy of training"--you may be onto something re: Bran. Summer didn't' want him to climb the tower, even though Bran seems to have been drawn to the tower--like the wolf and whomever sent the climbing desire were at odds. Maybe because Bran had to be broken first? Makes me like Bloodraven even less. But I think you are right--it fits with "earning."
Am thinking that being touched by something like those dreams would leave a mark, especially for the rejects--possibly why Euron is "maddest of all."
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:00 PM, said:
I agree, Asha is their only hope. I can't wait to see what's in store for her and Theon.
Amen. Though I wonder if it really would be best to just put Theon out of his misery and let Asha deal with everything.
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:00 PM, said:
I thought about Robb too. That ones a little trickier to stick. Yes his men chose him to be their king, but would they have chosen him specifically had he not been Lord of WF, their liege?
Yes--Robb should be on the list. I doubt that they would have chosen Robb if he hadn't been Ned's son. But Robb had just won a key battle very adeptly. And captured Jaime. He's proven in battle. And they did appoint him--I'd have to re-read the chapter, but I don't remember Robb's hinting at wanting the title. They'd just rather choose their own leader than kneel to another.
Like the free folk and Mance. And like what I'm guessing it was like for the first King of Winter--chosen. Earned in battle--like Jon's dream on the Wall. At least that's my take on that dream.
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:00 PM, said:
I almost forgot about the Dorthraki and Braavosi Sealord! Dang. I think in the WoW we'll see the Dorthraki hoard chose her to lead. I figured there were some in Essos, but I'm not as well versed in that continent as I am Westeros. lol
I got some reading to do tonight! (After HEROES, of course)
I'm assuming Dany gets the horde, too. The original synopsis makes that pretty clear. Plus, Drogon shows up--the Dothraki follow the strongest warrior. Who's stronger than Drogon?

# 207 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 02:53 AM
Ser Knute, on 24 Sept 2015 - 1:45 PM, said:
T'was described as a Bird of Prey, not specifically stated which though.
Eagle
Osprey
Kite Hawk
Harrier
Vulture
Falcon
Owl
I'm not sure which is the more applicable to the Ironborn or the horn-blower as it were. I'll leave that to you all as I have to run real quick, but I'll look in later. Very cool stuff.
It's called a hawk later, I think when Victarian is talking about it to Moquorro.

#208 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 03:48 AM
DarkSister1001, on 24 Sept 2015 - 6:00 PM, said:
In a nut shell, Euron was like Bran and tried to skinchange Aeron. I did a quick "hinge" search and the screaming iron ones seem to be in places that characters aren't supposed to go (but that was only a VERY quick search, I don't have it all worked out yet). There's loads of evidence that Euron has the gift but as we know, all his gift's are poisoned. I've read the theories that he molested Damphair but I believe there's enough info to clarify that the perversion was in a mental fashion and not a sexual one. I believe that BR found out and found Crow's Eye unworthy of such training and possibly afraid of what he could/would do leading Crow's Eye to be one of the impaled dreamers.
Bran went through a LOT to get where he is. It was a difficult journey. He lost almost everyone he loved. Could be another self sacrifice = worthiness of a big gift situation.
I agree, Asha is their only hope. I can't wait to see what's in store for her and Theon.
I thought about Robb too. That ones a little trickier to stick. Yes his men chose him to be their king, but would they have chosen him specifically had he not been Lord of WF, their liege?
I almost forgot about the Dorthraki and Braavosi Sealord! Dang. I think in the WoW we'll see the Dorthraki hoard chose her to lead. I figured there were some in Essos, but I'm not as well versed in that continent as I am Westeros. lol
I got some reading to do tonight! (After HEROES, of course)
I agree re Euron skinchanging - that's been my suspicion too as I found the idea of pedophilia too trite. Euron forcing open a "hinge" into Aeron's brain; this might be what it feels and sounds like to a skinchanged person or unwilling strong-willed animal. A screaming hinge, baneful sound, the horn to bind dragons - sounds such as this. (I have another suspicion that Hodor's brain might have been tampered with in a similar fashion before Bran skinchanged him. He was said to be acting "strange for days" when Bran lay ill and was attacked with the dagger, and we never received an explanation for that. Because he was not himself? No, not Bloodraven - I'm having deep suspicions about Benjen, perfect mystery novel suspect.)
On Leng, the god-empress chooses two husbands, one to advance her armies on land, the other on the sea. Confusing passage, but points to a major greenseer defending the earth - not the people or the realm - in a two-pronged battle, by land and by sea. Greenseers aren't necessarily good except that their purpose in the long run is - to defend the earth. A ruthless bastard like Euron might be okay with them. Bloodraven seems an ambivalent character, but also ruthless, and he's practiced blood magic (I assume, as he is called a sorceror) in the past so he's not "pure" either. These two might be the "chosen" ones, but with Bran and Theon (I also like Asha better but she's not the one that's been having dreams) as back-up?

#209 LmL
Posted Today, 04:45 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:
I agree re Euron skinchanging - that's been my suspicion too as I found the idea of pedophilia too trite. Euron forcing open a "hinge" into Aeron's brain; this might be what it feels and sounds like to a skinchanged person or unwilling strong-willed animal. A screaming hinge, baneful sound, the horn to bind dragons - sounds such as this. (I have another suspicion that Hodor's brain might have been tampered with in a similar fashion before Bran skinchanged him. He was said to be acting "strange for days" when Bran lay ill and was attacked with the dagger, and we never received an explanation for that. Because he was not himself? No, not Bloodraven - I'm having deep suspicions about Benjen, perfect mystery novel suspect.)
On Leng, the god-empress chooses two husbands, one to advance her armies on land, the other on the sea. Confusing passage, but points to a major greenseer defending the earth - not the people or the realm - in a two-pronged battle, by land and by sea. Greenseers aren't necessarily good except that their purpose in the long run is - to defend the earth. A ruthless bastard like Euron might be okay with them. Bloodraven seems an ambivalent character, but also ruthless, and he's practiced blood magic (I assume, as he is called a sorceror) in the past so he's not "pure" either. These two might be the "chosen" ones, but with Bran and Theon (I also like Asha better but she's not the one that's been having dreams) as back-up?
I'm interested in your connection between the God Empress and Greenseers, because I came to the same conclusion via different means.

#210 LmL
Posted Today, 04:50 AM
Sly Wren, on 23 Sept 2015 - 9:28 PM, said:
I'm liking this as a metaphor. And, as I said to Dark Sister above, that name is too tempting to ignore--though apparently I did just that on my first read. Humph.
Yes--Valyrian steel seems innately about conquering, blood sacrifice, and darkness. Vs. Dawn.
And I agree that the moonstones may be more symbol than magical component here--I'd be stunned beyond measure if Nightfall turned out to be AA's sword. But the idea of the sword's being tied with Night and thus the moon--the symbol holds much easier that way.
I just had a thought Sly Wren. We talked a bit about the pale stone pommel of the Valyrian steel sword, Longclaw. We talked about how it might suggest there is a sword made from the broken remnants of a black sword and a white sword. Nightfall, with a moonstone in the pommel, might be telling us the same thing... maybe. Moonstones come in black as well as the milky blue white color, but we could easily draw a line between pale stone and milky moonstone. Of course moon stone could mean what I think it means, a moon meteor... but the pale stone pommel of Jon's black sword seems significant, and not easily dismissed. There is surely some intention behind that. It could merely be a clue pointing toward him acquiring Dawn, made from a pale stone, because it is the original Ice. We should look out for more clues about mixing a black and white sword together somehow.

#211-215

211 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 07:58 AM
LmL, on 25 Sept 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:
I'm interested in your connection between the God Empress and Greenseers, because I came to the same conclusion via different means.
One thing I dismissed mostly is all the Lovecraftian allusions in the World Book. Sarnath, Ib, K'dath (Kadath), Carcosa, etc., are actual locations in Lovecraft's stories. Deep Ones, Old Ones, Great Ones - same thing. Lovecraft was a racist, basing a lot of his stories on xenophobia, in other words, "othering". So things we might think good or neutral or somewhat sinister in Westeros are still the same entities in Yi Ti but renamed in Lovecraftian terms with a regime change, and recast as enemies, or "others" with names right out of Lovecraftian horror. That's why on the "Other" side of the wall in Yi Ti you get fire-associates like Illyrio - the yellow emperor - living in Carcosa. Illyrio might be bad or conniving in Westeros, but once the "Others" win (as in Yi Ti), he becomes the epitome of unspeakable horror behind the Wall (Five Forts), just as the "Others" seem to the people of Westeros right now.
Same thing with renaming "Old Gods" to "Old Ones". Anyone with a bit of Lovecraft knowledge, or who knows how to google, will find out all Lovecraftian Gods incuding "Old Ones" were extremely malevolent gods. But what is really on Leng? I've studied this and think I am right. It's a remnant of the sea-swamped North, inverted to an island in the south. The original inhabitants, the tall Lengii (the short Children) live in the southern most part. Underneath them is a cavernous labyrinth associated with "Old Ones" that scares the hell out of people, drives them mad or they don't return. This is just the hollow hill labyrinth of caves that Bran and Bloodraven currently occupy (but could well turn people mad or lose them if they didn't have a guide!). Is Martin trying to tell us the Children or the labyrinth are evil? No, he's saying perception of good and evil is all in where you stand.
What he does tell us in that passage, however, is a little bit about how the Children are structured. We learn their "god-empress" - my assumption is a greenseer/weirwood combo, marries two husbands, one of the Children and one of the Yi Ti Lengii (northern westerosi humans). So that is how skinchanging gets started amongst the First Men. Her "daughters" practice the same, and as her daughters at this point can be either Children or Children-human hybrids, the head greenseer can be either. Of the two husbands, one controls the sea navies and one controls the land armies. So that stucture is there, still deeply imbedded in metaphor, but we at least know there are two "husbands" (or wives, why not?), likely greenseers and skinchangers, operating outside the weirwoods but being guided by them, in a two-pronged effort on land and sea against the forces of ice and fire. It doesn't clarify a lot, but as I hadn't thought of CotF fighting in or on the sea, it gave me that much at least.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 08:07 AM.

#212 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:25 AM
Sly Wren, on 24 Sept 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:
Okay--I'm liking this a lot. Is this in any way tied to that weird POV shift in the chapter where Victarion loses it on board his ship? Or whether or not Euron was skin-changing the man who blew the horn? Blood sacrifice by bad music lesson, vs. by bonfire a la Dany.
Yes, I've seen the Euron=failed BR candidate idea bandied about. "Unworthy of training"--you may be onto something re: Bran. Summer didn't' want him to climb the tower, even though Bran seems to have been drawn to the tower--like the wolf and whomever sent the climbing desire were at odds. Maybe because Bran had to be broken first? Makes me like Bloodraven even less. But I think you are right--it fits with "earning."
Am thinking that being touched by something like those dreams would leave a mark, especially for the rejects--possibly why Euron is "maddest of all."
Amen. Though I wonder if it really would be best to just put Theon out of his misery and let Asha deal with everything.
Yes--Robb should be on the list. I doubt that they would have chosen Robb if he hadn't been Ned's son. But Robb had just won a key battle very adeptly. And captured Jaime. He's proven in battle. And they did appoint him--I'd have to re-read the chapter, but I don't remember Robb's hinting at wanting the title. They'd just rather choose their own leader than kneel to another.
Like the free folk and Mance. And like what I'm guessing it was like for the first King of Winter--chosen. Earned in battle--like Jon's dream on the Wall. At least that's my take on that dream.
I'm assuming Dany gets the horde, too. The original synopsis makes that pretty clear. Plus, Drogon shows up--the Dothraki follow the strongest warrior. Who's stronger than Drogon?
Maybe that's what the balance of ice and fire comes down too...being worthy vs entitled. Jon, Bran, Dany, they're all being put in positions bc of their worthiness even if their birth was what put them on the path to begin with. Jon being a product of R&L, Ned's "son" and Benjen's nephew helped facilitate his entry into the NW but his worthiness has been what's distinguished him. Bran was born a warg bc of his bloodline but bc of his sweet disposition he's allowed to advance. Dany was sold to Drogo bc she was a princess but it's her character that brings the hoard back to her. That would include Robb too, though I don't think it's anything he ever wanted. Being Ned's heir put him on the path but his skill, heart and intelligence is what led to his crowning. Someone worthy of the power is more likely to deal with things in the best possible way. The way Jon defends bringing the wildlings over bc they're people too.
I'm not sure if that's tied in or not. I think Vic is dumb and in his efforts to be better than the Crow's Eye he seems to be becoming more like him. "Euron has his wizards, why shouldn't I?" Skinchanging the horn blower...interesting! I always wondered about how you can be the master of the horn but not physically blow it yourself. If it's as simple as being the person in charge then wouldn't Vic having the 3 guys blow the horn bind the dragons to Crow's Eye since he's their king?
I actually dig BR. He's a guy that gets shit done. I compare it to being a Jedi and using the Jedi Mind trick. The trick is allowed ONLY when it benefits the greater good, unless you're a sith. No one ever talks about what happened to the storm troopers that Obi Wan tricked. They probably got into trouble, maybe lost their jobs, their families went hungry, etc.  We accept the mind control over them since we know Obi Wan is a good guy and did it for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean there weren't negative consequences for them. That's why Bran has to stop controlling Hodor. In the tower to keep them from being discovered was ok. But now just to have legs isn't right (unless his exploring leads to something important).
We were just discussing the necessity of Bran falling (he had to fall to fly) in another thread. I think the near death experiences are necessary in order to move along the gift more quickly. Fight or flight. Jojen got green dreams after a fever. SpecialNedStark made a good point that you can almost tell when BR takes control of the wolves and quiets them here.
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:
It's called a hawk later, I think when Victarian is talking about it to Moquorro.
Ok cool, I couldn't remember (and I JUST read then damn chapter!?) Any hawk symbolism?
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:
I agree re Euron skinchanging - that's been my suspicion too as I found the idea of pedophilia too trite. Euron forcing open a "hinge" into Aeron's brain; this might be what it feels and sounds like to a skinchanged person or unwilling strong-willed animal. A screaming hinge, baneful sound, the horn to bind dragons - sounds such as this. (I have another suspicion that Hodor's brain might have been tampered with in a similar fashion before Bran skinchanged him. He was said to be acting "strange for days" when Bran lay ill and was attacked with the dagger, and we never received an explanation for that. Because he was not himself? No, not Bloodraven - I'm having deep suspicions about Benjen, perfect mystery novel suspect.)
On Leng, the god-empress chooses two husbands, one to advance her armies on land, the other on the sea. Confusing passage, but points to a major greenseer defending the earth - not the people or the realm - in a two-pronged battle, by land and by sea. Greenseers aren't necessarily good except that their purpose in the long run is - to defend the earth. A ruthless bastard like Euron might be okay with them. Bloodraven seems an ambivalent character, but also ruthless, and he's practiced blood magic (I assume, as he is called a sorceror) in the past so he's not "pure" either. These two might be the "chosen" ones, but with Bran and Theon (I also like Asha better but she's not the one that's been having dreams) as back-up?
That part about Hodor acting strange always nagged me. We still haven't figured out what his deal was then and it was a LONG time ago. I too suspect Hodor's "knock on the head" was BR related.
BR was definitely into the "dark arts" like his half-sister/bed buddy, Shiera. I like the idea that it's about saving the planet, not necessarily the people. I think that ties in well with BRs personality and some of the tough things he had to do. Hell, he may have known he needed to get to the Wall and knew the best way to ensure that happened would be to deal with Aenys Blackfyre the way he did.

#213 LmL
Posted Today, 10:41 AM
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
Maybe that's what the balance of ice and fire comes down too...being worthy vs entitled. Jon, Bran, Dany, they're all being put in positions bc of their worthiness even if their birth was what put them on the path to begin with. Jon being a product of R&L, Ned's "son" and Benjen's nephew helped facilitate his entry into the NW but his worthiness has been what's distinguished him. Bran was born a warg bc of his bloodline but bc of his sweet disposition he's allowed to advance. Dany was sold to Drogo bc she was a princess but it's her character that brings the hoard back to her. That would include Robb too, though I don't think it's anything he ever wanted. Being Ned's heir put him on the path but his skill, heart and intelligence is what led to his crowning. Someone worthy of the power is more likely to deal with things in the best possible way. The way Jon defends bringing the wildlings over bc they're people too.
I'm not sure if that's tied in or not. I think Vic is dumb and in his efforts to be better than the Crow's Eye he seems to be becoming more like him. "Euron has his wizards, why shouldn't I?" Skinchanging the horn blower...interesting! I always wondered about how you can be the master of the horn but not physically blow it yourself. If it's as simple as being the person in charge then wouldn't Vic having the 3 guys blow the horn bind the dragons to Crow's Eye since he's their king?
I actually dig BR. He's a guy that gets shit done. I compare it to being a Jedi and using the Jedi Mind trick. The trick is allowed ONLY when it benefits the greater good, unless you're a sith. No one ever talks about what happened to the storm troopers that Obi Wan tricked. They probably got into trouble, maybe lost their jobs, their families went hungry, etc.  We accept the mind control over them since we know Obi Wan is a good guy and did it for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean there weren't negative consequences for them. That's why Bran has to stop controlling Hodor. In the tower to keep them from being discovered was ok. But now just to have legs isn't right (unless his exploring leads to something important).
We were just discussing the necessity of Bran falling (he had to fall to fly) in another thread. I think the near death experiences are necessary in order to move along the gift more quickly. Fight or flight. Jojen got green dreams after a fever. SpecialNedStark made a good point that you can almost tell when BR takes control of the wolves and quiets them here.
Ok cool, I couldn't remember (and I JUST read then damn chapter!?) Any hawk symbolism?
That part about Hodor acting strange always nagged me. We still haven't figured out what his deal was then and it was a LONG time ago. I too suspect Hodor's "knock on the head" was BR related.
BR was definitely into the "dark arts" like his half-sister/bed buddy, Shiera. I like the idea that it's about saving the planet, not necessarily the people. I think that ties in well with BRs personality and some of the tough things he had to do. Hell, he may have known he needed to get to the Wall and knew the best way to ensure that happened would be to deal with Aenys Blackfyre the way he did.
I've always viewed those who sing the earth song like very committed environmentalists... like the kind who will kill people to save the planet. "Earth first," motherfuckers. Honestly when I look at the footage of things like the Tar Sands mines or mountaintop mining, oil spills... I want people to die too. It's just wrong to violate the earth like that. The cotf have no problem with killing people to save the earth, I am assuming. The Dothraki are like a cruder version of this - they believe plowing the earth is sinful, and so they burn and eradicate all cities inside their territory and any territory they can reach. Talk about extremists.

#214 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 10:51 AM
LmL, on 25 Sept 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:
I've always viewed those who sing the earth song like very committed environmentalists... like the kind who will kill people to save the planet. "Earth first," motherfuckers. Honestly when I look at the footage of things like the Tar Sands mines or mountaintop mining, oil spills... I want people to die too. It's just wrong to violate the earth like that. The cotf have no problem with killing people to save the earth, I am assuming. The Dothraki are like a cruder version of this - they believe plowing the earth is sinful, and so they burn and eradicate all cities inside their territory and any territory they can reach. Talk about extremists.
Absolutely! Green Peace ain't got nothing on the little squirrel people. The war between them and FM started bc the FM were burning and cutting down weirwoods. Was it bc those specific trees were holy or bc they were trees and they considered all of nature holy?

#215 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 02:30 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:
I agree re Euron skinchanging - that's been my suspicion too as I found the idea of pedophilia too trite. Euron forcing open a "hinge" into Aeron's brain; this might be what it feels and sounds like to a skinchanged person or unwilling strong-willed animal. A screaming hinge, baneful sound, the horn to bind dragons - sounds such as this. (I have another suspicion that Hodor's brain might have been tampered with in a similar fashion before Bran skinchanged him. He was said to be acting "strange for days" when Bran lay ill and was attacked with the dagger, and we never received an explanation for that. Because he was not himself? No, not Bloodraven - I'm having deep suspicions about Benjen, perfect mystery novel suspect.)
I'm liking that metaphor of the hinge--the dragons open with a crack. But I think they wanted out. The hinge--something forced open. That has possibilities.
On Hodor--I need to re-read those passages. And, like you, I'm not sold on Bloodraven. The idea of one, unified force behind all Old God phenomena seems belied by Martin's focus on individual choices. But why Benjen?
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
I actually dig BR. He's a guy that gets shit done. I compare it to being a Jedi and using the Jedi Mind trick. The trick is allowed ONLY when it benefits the greater good, unless you're a sith. No one ever talks about what happened to the storm troopers that Obi Wan tricked. They probably got into trouble, maybe lost their jobs, their families went hungry, etc.  We accept the mind control over them since we know Obi Wan is a good guy and did it for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean there weren't negative consequences for them. That's why Bran has to stop controlling Hodor. In the tower to keep them from being discovered was ok. But now just to have legs isn't right (unless his exploring leads to something important).
I agree on Bran's control of Hodor. But I'm still really suspicious of Bloodraven. The Children say they are more powerful with a human greenseer, like they are looking for extra power. And there's Bloodraven, plugged into a tree, getting Bran high on flying. I'm trying to reserve judgment until we know more but. . . this doesn't look good.
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
We were just discussing the necessity of Bran falling (he had to fall to fly) in another thread. I think the near death experiences are necessary in order to move along the gift more quickly. Fight or flight. Jojen got green dreams after a fever. SpecialNedStark made a good point that you can almost tell when BR takes control of the wolves and quiets them here.
Bran's falling does seem to be similar to Jon's self-sacrifice, Sansa's losing her wolf, etc. Key to learning what is necessary. But Summer tries to keep Bran down while the crows call him up. Suggests the Old Gods are not a unified faction--and that Bloodraven has his own agenda. Not good.
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
BR was definitely into the "dark arts" like his half-sister/bed buddy, Shiera. I like the idea that it's about saving the planet, not necessarily the people. I think that ties in well with BRs personality and some of the tough things he had to do. Hell, he may have known he needed to get to the Wall and knew the best way to ensure that happened would be to deal with Aenys Blackfyre the way he did.
Focusing on the big picture--that may be what's going on. What's interesting is that we've got Jon seeing the big "human" picture: what happens if the Watch and Wildlings keep fighting. Sansa's learning the political picture. Bran's learning the historical picture. Will these coincide or collide? This might also be part of the "balance"--not "ice and fire," but also all of the human angles. Might be why the Starks need to be a wolfpack--able to get at things from multiple angles.

216-220

#216 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 02:39 PM
LmL, on 25 Sept 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:
I just had a thought Sly Wren. We talked a bit about the pale stone pommel of the Valyrian steel sword, Longclaw. We talked about how it might suggest there is a sword made from the broken remnants of a black sword and a white sword. Nightfall, with a moonstone in the pommel, might be telling us the same thing... maybe. Moonstones come in black as well as the milky blue white color, but we could easily draw a line between pale stone and milky moonstone. Of course moon stone could mean what I think it means, a moon meteor... but the pale stone pommel of Jon's black sword seems significant, and not easily dismissed. There is surely some intention behind that. It could merely be a clue pointing toward him acquiring Dawn, made from a pale stone, because it is the original Ice. We should look out for more clues about mixing a black and white sword together somehow.
Interesting--mixed elements would make sense with a mixed blood child. I will keep an eye out.
With Longclaw--it's interesting to me that the part Jon focuses on when he sees his "other self"--Ghost--is the pommel, not the blade:
Quote: "The sword!" Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. "The sword, the sword, the sword."
Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. "Valyrian steel," he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. Game, Jon VIII
That Sword is amazing--and Jon knows he should love it. And he doesn't.
Quote: That grim thought soured Jon's fragile mood. "I need to see Hobb about the Old Bear's supper," he announced brusquely, sliding Longclaw back into its scabbard. His friends meant well, but they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers. Nor did they know of the fighting in the riverlands. How could they hope to comprehend? He turned away from them abruptly and strode off, sullen. Pyp called after him, but Jon paid him no mind.
They had moved him back to his old cell in tumbledown Hardin's Tower after the fire, and it was there he returned. Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you." Game, Jon VIII.
So, if the key to the sword is its mixed elements, seems like the white pommel side is what Jon likes/trusts best. At least initially, in the face of all that is happening. You'd think the sword would be comforting. Oddly, it isn't.
Edited by Sly Wren, Today, 02:40 PM.

#217 Kytheros
Posted Today, 03:40 PM
Heh. If Ghost/Jon is the sword's pommel and hilt, he needs a blade to be complete - and what sword (metaphorically speaking) lacks a hilt? Magic and sorcery - described as a double edged blade without a hilt. Will Jon start to dabble in more sorcerous magics?

#218 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 04:14 PM
The scene when Leaf tells Bran that their time is ending...I wonder if they mean that once they get the right people in power there will be no more need for magic. The planet will be balanced and they will have people in place that will be sure to maintain that balance. Obviously on the surface it sounds like they're just dying off. But what if they know they won't be needed and eventually neither will the wolves (wargs)?

#219 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 07:14 PM
Sly Wren, on 25 Sept 2015 - 1:39 PM, said:
Interesting--mixed elements would make sense with a mixed blood child. I will keep an eye out.
With Longclaw--it's interesting to me that the part Jon focuses on when he sees his "other self"--Ghost--is the pommel, not the blade:
Quote:"The sword!" Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. "The sword, the sword, the sword."
Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. "Valyrian steel," he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. Game, Jon VIII
That Sword is amazing--and Jon knows he should love it. And he doesn't.
Quote: That grim thought soured Jon's fragile mood. "I need to see Hobb about the Old Bear's supper," he announced brusquely, sliding Longclaw back into its scabbard. His friends meant well, but they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers. Nor did they know of the fighting in the riverlands. How could they hope to comprehend? He turned away from them abruptly and strode off, sullen. Pyp called after him, but Jon paid him no mind.
They had moved him back to his old cell in tumbledown Hardin's Tower after the fire, and it was there he returned. Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you." Game, Jon VIII.
So, if the key to the sword is its mixed elements, seems like the white pommel side is what Jon likes/trusts best. At least initially, in the face of all that is happening. You'd think the sword would be comforting. Oddly, it isn't.
Very nice analysis Sly Wren. I think you've got this just right.

#220 LmL
Posted 2 minutes ago
Nobody should like or trust those black swords.

221-225

#221 wolfmaid7
Posted Yesterday, 10:24 PM
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 3:14 PM, said:
The scene when Leaf tells Bran that their time is ending...I wonder if they mean that once they get the right people in power there will be no more need for magic. The planet will be balanced and they will have people in place that will be sure to maintain that balance. Obviously on the surface it sounds like they're just dying off. But what if they know they won't be needed and eventually neither will the wolves (wargs)?
Late to the party and will have to read this entire thread,but wanted to comment on this. It could be that Leaf is pulling a fast one on Bran.The COTF have become but a legend in Westeros and though she remark that they are few in numbers i can't help but think that's BS even if they don't have "litters" or something.I think in the time they've been in isolation they could have increased in numbers.If according to Leaf the Giants were their brothers and bane to keep them from over running the place and the Giants were pretty much wiped out then her statement is no longer true.
So i doubt they are in danger of as a people right now.The other statement that intriques me is "in the world men have created there is no place for us or them (Direwolves) so what do you do except
1. Say fuck it light a cigar and watch the long setting of your sun or...
2.Change the world men created to facilate you and the other rejects.
And i think this essentially at least part of the plan create sympathetic humans who can live alongside you in the world.Magic is essential to the world and it really can be destroyed or it can't vanish.The world would have to be void of every magical creature and a few houses in Westeros would have to go extinct.But like i said on another site the problem isn't magic its those who wield it.They do not have any reverence,respect and restraint concerning it.This unfortunately is a human malady and in this context it means the greenseer or those of the greenseeing type.
They are the problem or they make it worse by getting involve in a separate game and what's needed is someone sitting on those thrones that have no alteria motive and who understands service to all.Only with that understanding would they be able to balance the seasons.
That won't stop men from killing each other, they'll go back fighting as usuall but they'll know which season to pick a fight.


#222 Sly Wren
Posted 20 minutes ago
Kytheros, on 25 Sept 2015 - 2:40 PM, said:
Heh. If Ghost/Jon is the sword's pommel and hilt, he needs a blade to be complete - and what sword (metaphorically speaking) lacks a hilt? Magic and sorcery - described as a double edged blade without a hilt. Will Jon start to dabble in more sorcerous magics?
I have a hard time seeing Jon engage in Mel-like magics. He's horrified by her burnings. And doesn't listen to her--it takes Jon's reading Aemon's Jade Compendium to think about Azor Ahai. Before that, he dismisses Mel's talk about all of that. So, that kind of magicking--can't really see it.
Or were you thinking of something specific vs. general magics?
On the "pommel" for magics--weirdly, the direwolves are kind of like that, right? Varamyr claims and enslaves some of his animals--but the Starks' relationship, magical relationship with their wolves is natural. Protective. Lets them get close to magics without getting hurt (like so many others). A pommel for a sword. . . or maybe I'm free-associating too much.
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 6:14 PM, said:
Very nice analysis Sly Wren. I think you've got this just right.
Cheers!
LmL, on 25 Sept 2015 - 7:17 PM, said:
Nobody should like or trust those black swords.
Amen! Though they are still really cool.
After reading your essays, I remember your mostly talking about the myths and the astronomy--did you ever play with jewels? One little thing I noticed re: the pommel for the amazing sword Jon knows he should be wowed over but isn't' right away: garnet eyes. Like Ghost, whose "red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men."
Sam bought the garnets in Mole's Town. He and a few other NW helped make the pommel. Garnets make sense--cheaper than rubies. But rubies are at least somewhat tied to Targs (though not exclusively)--Aegon's ruby and Valyrian steel crown. Rhaegar's ruby armor.
Garnets and rubies have a lot of similarities--but there's also this:
QUOTE: As [Tyrion] entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."
"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire." Storm, Tyrion IV
Could be nothing--but the garnets gets multiple references in that Game section. Seems like the sword might be an (inadvertent) mix of the older non-Targ direwolf Starks and the Targ related Valyrian steel. Maybe.

#223 Sly Wren
Posted 11 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 25 Sept 2015 - 3:14 PM, said:
The scene when Leaf tells Bran that their time is ending...I wonder if they mean that once they get the right people in power there will be no more need for magic. The planet will be balanced and they will have people in place that will be sure to maintain that balance. Obviously on the surface it sounds like they're just dying off. But what if they know they won't be needed and eventually neither will the wolves (wargs)?
I pretty much agree with Wolfmaid on this, but just wanted to add: not sure how you could get people in place to maintain sustainable balance.
Seems like there will always be problems--especially in Martin's world as presented. Am guessing that might be what he means by bittersweet--the solutions are temporary. Problems will come again.
I guess he could do the Tolkien thing and have the Children be like the Elves--fading and going West. But the "plugged into the tree" part--doesn't seem like "fading." Luring Bran to them seems like "strategy."
Jon's moments with the Wall, with icicles, Sansa in the garden at the Eyrie, Arya's wolf dreams--these seem like much more balanced magics than "Plugged into tree."
That's just my (wordy) two cents. Getting off my soapbox now.

#224 Lady Barbrey
Posted 19 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 25 Sept 2015 - 1:30 PM, said:
I'm liking that metaphor of the hinge--the dragons open with a crack. But I think they wanted out. The hinge--something forced open. That has possibilities.
On Hodor--I need to re-read those passages. And, like you, I'm not sold on Bloodraven. The idea of one, unified force behind all Old God phenomena seems belied by Martin's focus on individual choices. But why Benjen?
I agree on Bran's control of Hodor. But I'm still really suspicious of Bloodraven. The Children say they are more powerful with a human greenseer, like they are looking for extra power. And there's Bloodraven, plugged into a tree, getting Bran high on flying. I'm trying to reserve judgment until we know more but. . . this doesn't look good.
Bran's falling does seem to be similar to Jon's self-sacrifice, Sansa's losing her wolf, etc. Key to learning what is necessary. But Summer tries to keep Bran down while the crows call him up. Suggests the Old Gods are not a unified faction--and that Bloodraven has his own agenda. Not good.
Did it ever strike you as weird that Bloodraven seemed taken aback when Bran called him a three-eyed crow? Bloodraven thought Bran was referring to him being a former black brother - a crow. I put that down to greenseers not knowing how they appeared to the people whose dreams they entered. But maybe there was something else going on? I mean, what did you guys think when Euron appeared and we seemed to have another three-eyed crow on our hands, this time one that really is associated with crows not ravens? Mixed things up. Shouldn't Bloodraven have appeared as a raven or a tree?
Yes, hinges open doors that let things in and let things out. Could be either or both. I see the metaphor developing on a few levels: Forcing the opening of hinges of the World - at the God's Eye, Winterfell crypts and the Wall (or what's underneath it - the caverns) (for three); forcefully opening minds and closing them (forgetfulness); and cracking open the moon (as per LmL).
Benjen - well this is a long theory and depends on taking each situation we see him in and interpreting it differently, just as you would in a murder mystery when you suddenly become aware of who the culprit is. So I can just use a few examples here or it will get too long.
As I stated before, his bloodline is the "iciest" of the current living Starks and aligns him with Dany, Jon's aunt of fire, as Jon's uncle of ice. If there is a human avatar of Ice like Dany is for fire, Benjen's bloodline makes him the likeliest.
He also manipulated Jon into the Night's Watch - take a look at that conversation he has with him when Jon's at his lowest point. He seems to be sympathizing with him, while rubbing salt into his wounds. Then when Jon impulsively says he wants to join the Night's Watch, instead of telling him the truth about the kinds of men there and the life they lead, he says the one thing guaranteed to make Jon want to join then and there - "you should sire some bastards first". Either that was incredibly insensitive or he was playing Jon. He leaves the conversation aware that Jon spoke on impulse, and giving the impression that he's against Jon joining. Later, though, Maester Luwin tells Catelyn and Ned that Benjen approached him saying Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. WTF? I though to myself. I spent the rest of the book suspicious of Maester Luwin for misrepresenting a conversation in order to get Jon onto the Night's Watch. But Luwin proves to be a good guy. So he was telling the truth. That means that Benjen really did tell Maester Luwin as much and his goal from the beginning was to get Jon to the Wall. Why? Classic Star Wars. To claim him for the "other" side when the time comes. Jon's a swing hitter - better have him batting for ice.
I also suspect he has skinchanging and greenseeing abilities, or an icy version of them, almost as strong as Bran's. Something happened to Hodor in the past. And something happened to Hodor around the time of the dagger attack. I don't believe Joffrey was the culprit, though he might have provided the dagger. That was just a vague red herring Martin needed to pacify us with because revealing who was behind it is going to be a major revelation in all kinds of other ways. It was too soon. Aside from the Lannister twins, nobody wanted to kill Bran, until, as a result of his fall and his coma, he began greendreaming. That has to be the cause of the murder attempt, I think, and through powers iike Melisandre's or something else, Benjen recognized a future enemy.
So by some means he tries and fails to kill his "Summer" nephew, but does succeed in bringing the "other" one, the 'Ghost" one - to the Wall.
Very Richard III! And very Littlefinger! I don't buy that Benjen and Lyanna had a cosy Starkish relationship. He might have loved her but I think he resented her too. Think back to Bran's vision of Lyanna beating Benjen up in swordplay, viciously hitting him on the thigh with her branch so that he falls. She was two years older, bigger, stronger and was not holding back against her 7 year old brother (if he was Bran's age). This did not remind me of Arya at all, and nor does it remind Bran of her when he takes a second look. Arya is competitive and fierce but she is also fiercely fair, more like her father. This seemed more a weaker version of Brandon beating up Littlefinger, and look at how that turned out. We also have the real Benjen personality I would say reflected in Rickon. Rickon wants to play Lord of the Crossing but as soon as he's hit, Shaggy Dog savages the Walder that did it. Rickon's fine with the Walders afterward, but in that first interaction we see that he gets his own back even at 4. Then we get Lyanna dumping a glass of wine on Benjen's head because he teases her for sniffling. In front of a prince and all the lords and ladies and famed heroes of the court. Overreact much, Lyanna? Think how humiliating that must have felt to a 12 year old. But we don't even have to imagine it, because Joffrey pours a glass of wine on Tyrion's head at his wedding, and we get to hear all Tyrion's humiliated but trying to rise above it thoughts. We can't know what was going on in Benjen's head but we are shown through echoes of those moments that they were likely not friendly towards his sister. Littlefinger, Tyrion, Rickon, Benjen - the youngest, the smallest, who always get their own back. The valonqar. That's the way George plays.
So since I'm making Benjen a mystery suspect, I'm just going further out on this limb to say I think he was behind some of the wrongness at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy - that to get revenge on his sister he relayed a wrong message or did something to screw it all up, not meaning it to go to the extent it did. Then he ends up as The Stark at Winterfell and news of his father's and brother's brutal deaths come to him. The guilt! The thoughts of vengeance! A little trip to the crypts! A little transformation like our girl Dany! A missing sword and the spirit of an undead Stark joins with a living one. All conjecture here.
Didn't you find it odd that the first attack on the Wall is an intelligent plan to kill the LC by planting dead men that were under Benjen's command outside the Wall so they'll be brought inside? And why kill the LC? The men didn't have much of a choice of leaders at that point. If the LC died, I very much suspect Benjen would have had a clear path to the LCship. But foiled! So no point in returning then. Back to the Others and other plans.
I don't know all the details. How could I? But Benjen is very high on my suspect list of playing a deep game. If he returns, I expect he'll have good reasons for his vacation, and seemingly be a strong force for protection, of the North and the Wall. Before he turns "icy". AHAHAHAHA!

#225 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 03:52 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:
Did it ever strike you as weird that Bloodraven seemed taken aback when Bran called him a three-eyed crow? Bloodraven thought Bran was referring to him being a former black brother - a crow. I put that down to greenseers not knowing how they appeared to the people whose dreams they entered. But maybe there was something else going on? I mean, what did you guys think when Euron appeared and we seemed to have another three-eyed crow on our hands, this time one that really is associated with crows not ravens? Mixed things up. Shouldn't Bloodraven have appeared as a raven or a tree?
This idea of BR and the 3EC being different entities is something that I've seen brought up quite a bit. However, this may be the first time that I've seen it mentioned in reference to a possible Euron connection. When you step back to look at it, that really does make a lot of sense. Especially if you combine the idea with further evidence that Euron may very well be tied to greenseeing. (Like his comment to Victarion about how do you know you can't fly if you never take a leap?) I think I just might be having one of those facepalm moments wondering how I have never noticed this before.
Quote
Benjen - well this is a long theory and depends on taking each situation we see him in and interpreting it differently, just as you would in a murder mystery when you suddenly become aware of who the culprit is. So I can just use a few examples here or it will get too long.    As I stated before, his bloodline is the "iciest" of the current living Starks and aligns him with Dany, Jon's aunt of fire, as Jon's uncle of ice. If there is a human avatar of Ice like Dany is for fire, Benjen's bloodline makes him the likeliest.      He also manipulated Jon into the Night's Watch - take a look at that conversation he has with him when Jon's at his lowest point. He seems to be sympathizing with him, while rubbing salt into his wounds. Then when Jon impulsively says he wants to join the Night's Watch, instead of telling him the truth about the kinds of men there and the life they lead, he says the one thing guaranteed to make Jon want to join then and there - "you should sire some bastards first". Either that was incredibly insensitive or he was playing Jon. He leaves the conversation aware that Jon spoke on impulse, and giving the impression that he's against Jon joining. Later, though, Maester Luwin tells Catelyn and Ned that Benjen approached him saying Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. WTF? I though to myself. I spent the rest of the book suspicious of Maester Luwin for misrepresenting a conversation in order to get Jon onto the Night's Watch. But Luwin proves to be a good guy. So he was telling the truth. That means that Benjen really did tell Maester Luwin as much and his goal from the beginning was to get Jon to the Wall. Why? Classic Star Wars. To claim him for the "other" side when the time comes. Jon's a swing hitter - better have him batting for ice.   I also suspect he has skinchanging and greenseeing abilities, or an icy version of them, almost as strong as Bran's. Something happened to Hodor in the past. And something happened to Hodor around the time of the dagger attack. I don't believe Joffrey was the culprit, though he might have provided the dagger. That was just a vague red herring Martin needed to pacify us with because revealing who was behind it is going to be a major revelation in all kinds of other ways. It was too soon. Aside from the Lannister twins, nobody wanted to kill Bran, until, as a result of his fall and his coma, he began greendreaming. That has to be the cause of the murder attempt, I think, and through powers iike Melisandre's or something else, Benjen recognized a future enemy.    So by some means he tries and fails to kill his "Summer" nephew, but does succeed in bringing the "other" one, the 'Ghost" one - to the Wall.   Very Richard III! And very Littlefinger! I don't buy that Benjen and Lyanna had a cosy Starkish relationship. He might have loved her but I think he resented her too. Think back to Bran's vision of Lyanna beating Benjen up in swordplay, viciously hitting him on the thigh with her branch so that he falls. She was two years older, bigger, stronger and was not holding back against her 7 year old brother (if he was Bran's age). This did not remind me of Arya at all, and nor does it remind Bran of her when he takes a second look. Arya is competitive and fierce but she is also fiercely fair, more like her father. This seemed more a weaker version of Brandon beating up Littlefinger, and look at how that turned out. We also have the real Benjen personality I would say reflected in Rickon. Rickon wants to play Lord of the Crossing but as soon as he's hit, Shaggy Dog savages the Walder that did it. Rickon's fine with the Walders afterward, but in that first interaction we see that he gets his own back even at 4. Then we get Lyanna dumping a glass of wine on Benjen's head because he teases her for sniffling. In front of a prince and all the lords and ladies and famed heroes of the court. Overreact much, Lyanna? Think how humiliating that must have felt to a 12 year old. But we don't even have to imagine it, because Joffrey pours a glass of wine on Tyrion's head at his wedding, and we get to hear all Tyrion's humiliated but trying to rise above it thoughts. We can't know what was going on in Benjen's head but we are shown through echoes of those moments that they were likely not friendly towards his sister. Littlefinger, Tyrion, Rickon, Benjen - the youngest, the smallest, who always get their own back. The valonqar. That's the way George plays.   So since I'm making Benjen a mystery suspect, I'm just going further out on this limb to say I think he was behind some of the wrongness at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy - that to get revenge on his sister he relayed a wrong message or did something to screw it all up, not meaning it to go to the extent it did. Then he ends up as The Stark at Winterfell and news of his father's and brother's brutal deaths come to him. The guilt! The thoughts of vengeance! A little trip to the crypts! A little transformation like our girl Dany! A missing sword and the spirit of an undead Stark joins with a living one. All conjecture here.   Didn't you find it odd that the first attack on the Wall is an intelligent plan to kill the LC by planting dead men that were under Benjen's command outside the Wall so they'll be brought inside? And why kill the LC? The men didn't have much of a choice of leaders at that point. If the LC died, I very much suspect Benjen would have had a clear path to the LCship. But foiled! So no point in returning then. Back to the Others and other plans.   I don't know all the details. How could I? But Benjen is very high on my suspect list of playing a deep game. If he returns, I expect he'll have good reasons for his vacation, and seemingly be a strong force for protection, of the North and the Wall. Before he turns "icy". AHAHAHAHA!
Oh my, Lady Barbrey! I'm not sure if I want to be amazed at the deductions you have made, or sad that I agree with what you have just said even though in my heart I always wanted Uncle Ben to be one of the heroes. Have you ever posted anything about this before? It has a very strong ring of truth to it. If you haven't, please do! I'd love to hear if there's any more you have to say on this. I hope you don't mind if I put a link to your post over at the Last Hearth. If you do or already have written further on this, please let me know.

Sly Wren · November 10, 2015

226-230

#226 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 04:29 AM
Lady Dyanna, on 26 Sept 2015 - 02:52 AM, said:
This idea of BR and the 3EC being different entities is something that I've seen brought up quite a bit. However, this may be the first time that I've seen it mentioned in reference to a possible Euron connection. When you step back to look at it, that really does make a lot of sense. Especially if you combine the idea with further evidence that Euron may very well be tied to greenseeing. (Like his comment to Victarion about how do you know you can't fly if you never take a leap?) I think I just might be having one of those facepalm moments wondering how I have never noticed this before. Oh my, Lady Barbrey! I'm not sure if I want to be amazed at the deductions you have made, or sad that I agree with what you have just said even though in my heart I always wanted Uncle Ben to be one of the heroes. Have you ever posted anything about this before? It has a very strong ring of truth to it. If you haven't, please do! I'd love to hear if there's any more you have to say on this. I hope you don't mind if I put a link to your post over at the Last Hearth. If you do or already have written further on this, please let me know.
Thanks Lady D. No, never posted on it. Just came to me in the last few days, when I started thinking about how structurally we needed someone working with or for the Others, maybe even have generated them somehow, in order to balance Dany, and they had to have been doing it for some time. Then thought about this as a murder mystery novel (and the series actually starts off as one) and who I would pick for a behind the scenes player. Benjen was the obvious answer for me, so I started looking at his scenes. There's actually more than this I could use. Also, you know how Martin said it will have a bittersweet ending? Take a look at the line of Stark kings. There are only two named Benjen. Benjen the Bitter. And Benjen the Sweet.
And if it does turn out to be Benjen behind a lot of this, I think we'll end up seeing it more as a tragedy than a treachery. Go ahead link for Last Hearth. Maybe I should do a full essay over there?

#227 Lady Dyanna
Posted Today, 11:55 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 26 Sept 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:
Thanks Lady D. No, never posted on it. Just came to me in the last few days, when I started thinking about how structurally we needed someone working with or for the Others, maybe even have generated them somehow, in order to balance Dany, and they had to have been doing it for some time. Then thought about this as a murder mystery novel (and the series actually starts off as one) and who I would pick for a behind the scenes player. Benjen was the obvious answer for me, so I started looking at his scenes. There's actually more than this I could use. Also, you know how Martin said it will have a bittersweet ending? Take a look at the line of Stark kings. There are only two named Benjen. Benjen the Bitter. And Benjen the Sweet.   And if it does turn out to be Benjen behind a lot of this, I think we'll end up seeing it more as a tragedy than a treachery. Go ahead link for Last Hearth. Maybe I should do a full essay over there?
There wasn't a great place to put a link so I ended up just putting it with my thoughts in the Bumping for Benjen Game thread. I felt that if a new thread were to be opened that honor should go to you. Although I can't speak for everyone else, I, for one would love to see the full essay if it's something that you have the interest in doing!

#228 DarkSister1001
Posted 59 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:
Did it ever strike you as weird that Bloodraven seemed taken aback when Bran called him a three-eyed crow? Bloodraven thought Bran was referring to him being a former black brother - a crow. I put that down to greenseers not knowing how they appeared to the people whose dreams they entered. But maybe there was something else going on? I mean, what did you guys think when Euron appeared and we seemed to have another three-eyed crow on our hands, this time one that really is associated with crows not ravens? Mixed things up. Shouldn't Bloodraven have appeared as a raven or a tree?
Yes, hinges open doors that let things in and let things out. Could be either or both. I see the metaphor developing on a few levels: Forcing the opening of hinges of the World - at the God's Eye, Winterfell crypts and the Wall (or what's underneath it - the caverns) (for three); forcefully opening minds and closing them (forgetfulness); and cracking open the moon (as per LmL).
Benjen - well this is a long theory and depends on taking each situation we see him in and interpreting it differently, just as you would in a murder mystery when you suddenly become aware of who the culprit is. So I can just use a few examples here or it will get too long.
As I stated before, his bloodline is the "iciest" of the current living Starks and aligns him with Dany, Jon's aunt of fire, as Jon's uncle of ice. If there is a human avatar of Ice like Dany is for fire, Benjen's bloodline makes him the likeliest.
He also manipulated Jon into the Night's Watch - take a look at that conversation he has with him when Jon's at his lowest point. He seems to be sympathizing with him, while rubbing salt into his wounds. Then when Jon impulsively says he wants to join the Night's Watch, instead of telling him the truth about the kinds of men there and the life they lead, he says the one thing guaranteed to make Jon want to join then and there - "you should sire some bastards first". Either that was incredibly insensitive or he was playing Jon. He leaves the conversation aware that Jon spoke on impulse, and giving the impression that he's against Jon joining. Later, though, Maester Luwin tells Catelyn and Ned that Benjen approached him saying Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. WTF? I though to myself. I spent the rest of the book suspicious of Maester Luwin for misrepresenting a conversation in order to get Jon onto the Night's Watch. But Luwin proves to be a good guy. So he was telling the truth. That means that Benjen really did tell Maester Luwin as much and his goal from the beginning was to get Jon to the Wall. Why? Classic Star Wars. To claim him for the "other" side when the time comes. Jon's a swing hitter - better have him batting for ice.
I also suspect he has skinchanging and greenseeing abilities, or an icy version of them, almost as strong as Bran's. Something happened to Hodor in the past. And something happened to Hodor around the time of the dagger attack. I don't believe Joffrey was the culprit, though he might have provided the dagger. That was just a vague red herring Martin needed to pacify us with because revealing who was behind it is going to be a major revelation in all kinds of other ways. It was too soon. Aside from the Lannister twins, nobody wanted to kill Bran, until, as a result of his fall and his coma, he began greendreaming. That has to be the cause of the murder attempt, I think, and through powers iike Melisandre's or something else, Benjen recognized a future enemy.
So by some means he tries and fails to kill his "Summer" nephew, but does succeed in bringing the "other" one, the 'Ghost" one - to the Wall.
Very Richard III! And very Littlefinger! I don't buy that Benjen and Lyanna had a cosy Starkish relationship. He might have loved her but I think he resented her too. Think back to Bran's vision of Lyanna beating Benjen up in swordplay, viciously hitting him on the thigh with her branch so that he falls. She was two years older, bigger, stronger and was not holding back against her 7 year old brother (if he was Bran's age). This did not remind me of Arya at all, and nor does it remind Bran of her when he takes a second look. Arya is competitive and fierce but she is also fiercely fair, more like her father. This seemed more a weaker version of Brandon beating up Littlefinger, and look at how that turned out. We also have the real Benjen personality I would say reflected in Rickon. Rickon wants to play Lord of the Crossing but as soon as he's hit, Shaggy Dog savages the Walder that did it. Rickon's fine with the Walders afterward, but in that first interaction we see that he gets his own back even at 4. Then we get Lyanna dumping a glass of wine on Benjen's head because he teases her for sniffling. In front of a prince and all the lords and ladies and famed heroes of the court. Overreact much, Lyanna? Think how humiliating that must have felt to a 12 year old. But we don't even have to imagine it, because Joffrey pours a glass of wine on Tyrion's head at his wedding, and we get to hear all Tyrion's humiliated but trying to rise above it thoughts. We can't know what was going on in Benjen's head but we are shown through echoes of those moments that they were likely not friendly towards his sister. Littlefinger, Tyrion, Rickon, Benjen - the youngest, the smallest, who always get their own back. The valonqar. That's the way George plays.
So since I'm making Benjen a mystery suspect, I'm just going further out on this limb to say I think he was behind some of the wrongness at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy - that to get revenge on his sister he relayed a wrong message or did something to screw it all up, not meaning it to go to the extent it did. Then he ends up as The Stark at Winterfell and news of his father's and brother's brutal deaths come to him. The guilt! The thoughts of vengeance! A little trip to the crypts! A little transformation like our girl Dany! A missing sword and the spirit of an undead Stark joins with a living one. All conjecture here.
Didn't you find it odd that the first attack on the Wall is an intelligent plan to kill the LC by planting dead men that were under Benjen's command outside the Wall so they'll be brought inside? And why kill the LC? The men didn't have much of a choice of leaders at that point. If the LC died, I very much suspect Benjen would have had a clear path to the LCship. But foiled! So no point in returning then. Back to the Others and other plans.
I don't know all the details. How could I? But Benjen is very high on my suspect list of playing a deep game. If he returns, I expect he'll have good reasons for his vacation, and seemingly be a strong force for protection, of the North and the Wall. Before he turns "icy". AHAHAHAHA!
Nice!  His convo with Jon bugged me. He tells him that they need men like him on the Wall but then immediately tells him it's a bad idea right now and then insults him. If he was somehow involved in what went down at Harrenhall the guilt may have lead him to take the black.

#229 superunknown5
Posted 37 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:
the pommel for the amazing sword Jon knows he should be wowed over but isn't' right away: garnet eyes....
Sam bought the garnets in Mole's Town. He and a few other NW helped make the pommel. Garnets make sense--cheaper than rubies. But rubies are at least somewhat tied to Targs (though not exclusively)--Aegon's ruby and Valyrian steel crown. Rhaegar's ruby armor.
Garnets and rubies have a lot of similarities--but there's also this:
QUOTE: As [Tyrion] entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."
"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire." Storm, Tyrion IV
As discussed earlier, Ghost has red eyes of blood, not fire, hence garnets in the pommel rather than rubies.
As you note, rubies are linked to fire.
Garnets also have an interesting association:
Quote: Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. - Reek, ADwD
Another point in favor of ALJ, IMO. If you want to go down my crazy Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole, this may be a hint. Arthur Dayne is depicted as the poster boy of chivalry. Ramsay is basically the exact opposite, cruel and psychotic and pure evil. Ramsay and Jon are the point counter-point, the yin and the yang, the two bastard snows.

#230 Kytheros
Posted 15 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:
I have a hard time seeing Jon engage in Mel-like magics. He's horrified by her burnings. And doesn't listen to her--it takes Jon's reading Aemon's Jade Compendium to think about Azor Ahai. Before that, he dismisses Mel's talk about all of that. So, that kind of magicking--can't really see it.   Or were you thinking of something specific vs. general magics?   On the "pommel" for magics--weirdly, the direwolves are kind of like that, right? Varamyr claims and enslaves some of his animals--but the Starks' relationship, magical relationship with their wolves is natural. Protective. Lets them get close to magics without getting hurt (like so many others). A pommel for a sword. . . or maybe I'm free-associating too much.
Perhaps "more sorcerous magics" is the wrong term. Magic other than just the warging. Magic with greater effects than riding in an animal or dreaming what your bonded animal is up to or knows. Magic other than the green dreams and green seeing that Jojen and Bran have demonstrated.
Other than the warging, all the abilities Bran has thus far demonstrated or been introduced to have been more of a long term, strategic nature, perhaps Jon will have more near-term, tactical abilities - or perhaps they'll be connected to the precursor empire theory of Stark and White Walker origins.
Who knows, but if magic is a blade without a hilt, and Ghost is a pommel/hilt (as symbolized through Longclaw), perhaps Jon will be able to use certain forms of magics safely, or at least more safely, relative to someone lacking a bond to produce a hilt for their magic, or more precisely or more accurately or with greater focus or strength.

231-235

#231 LmL
Posted Today, 03:43 PM
Kytheros, on 26 Sept 2015 - 1:19 PM, said:
Perhaps "more sorcerous magics" is the wrong term. Magic other than just the warging. Magic with greater effects than riding in an animal or dreaming what your bonded animal is up to or knows. Magic other than the green dreams and green seeing that Jojen and Bran have demonstrated. Other than the warging, all the abilities Bran has thus far demonstrated or been introduced to have been more of a long term, strategic nature, perhaps Jon will have more near-term, tactical abilities - or perhaps they'll be connected to the precursor empire theory of Stark and White Walker origins. Who knows, but if magic is a blade without a hilt, and Ghost is a pommel/hilt (as symbolized through Longclaw), perhaps Jon will be able to use certain forms of magics safely, or at least more safely, relative to someone lacking a bond to produce a hilt for their magic, or more precisely or more accurately or with greater focus or strength.
This notion ties quite nicely to my RLJ notions of Jon being red fire tempered in black ice. Rhaegar's dragon blood, but tempered and balanced by Lyanna's icy northern blood. Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath, as I like to say. Notice in his Azor Ahai dream, he wields the burning red sword, but he himself is armored in black ice. When Jon resurrects and merges with his pale shadow, his Ghost, perhaps the ice won't be black anymore.
It's just like when Ned dips his black and bloody sword into the cold black waters ("black as night") of the WF godswood pond. Ned's sword, "Ice," is black, so you could certainly call that "Black Ice," as I am fond of doing. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail's unique appearance is described as "waves of blood and night" (Which looks like this, btw, fucking badass). Ned dips the black sword into the black as night pond, washing off the blood. He's making waves of blood and night.
You guys were discussing the blood and fire dichotomy re: rubies and garnets. I've picked up on that too. Sometimes blood and fire are delineated, and other times they are equated. The comet is either burning or bleeding, and the comet's red is described as "blood red, fire red, the dragon's tail" as well as "that terrible red, the color of blood and flame and sunsets." It's interesting that Jon's wolf's eyes are made distinct from Mel's Eyes... because aren't Ghost's eyes also described as embers in one place? I'll have to hunt that down. In any case, Jon's sword burns red, Ghosts's eyes are blood... blood and fire, fire and blood. Where have I heard that before? ;P
The interaction of blood and fire comes when blood burns. Blood burns when AA thrusts Lightbringer into a monster; it burns when you undergo any kind of fire transformation (Dany, Mel, Beric). Drogo's blood is hot and smoking and black, all the time. And of course, the moon's blood was burned by Lightbringer the comet, which is the real m,eating of the "waves of night and blood motif," which melisandre sees in her vision in ADWD as the black and bloody tides, I believe. It's all the same theme. Darkness, blood, burning blood, floods in the dark. It's a literal flood and a metaphorical flood of moon blood - those are the black "bloodstone" meteors for which the Bloodstone Emperor is named. You know the drill. The greasy black stone is greasy because it's got the black blood of the moon infused into it.. . hence the dark magic and necromancy associated with them. Bleeding trees, red blood on white, and bleeding stones, black on black. The burning red sword / comet was thrust into the Nissa Nissa moon's breast, burned her blood, dragon meteors were born. That;s having the fire inside you, and Dany has it inside her when she steps in her solar king Drogo's pyre and wakes dragons from stone.
Lightbringer was made from the black bleeding stones, and I can't help but wonder if the pale stone from which Dawn is made isn't the pale stone of a comet, but of a petrified weirwood. I've discussed this idea with some of you before, I believe, but there's an awful lot of stuff about wooden swords in the books. And why should alien meteors have all the fun? Why not an earth sword to fight the meteor sword? I know I am hopping around a lot here but I think most of you are familiar with my rhetoric. But speaking of Dawn, as a pale stone tres word, that explains the connection to the Others, because I have been thinking for a while that the Others have something to do with greenseers transformed by ice, and petrified weirwoods. Dawn is like milkglass, the Others' bones are like milkglass. If Dawn is pale stone from a petrified weir, and the Others come from some sort of dead trees / dead greeds... I dunno, kind of makes sense to me.
One last thought, getting back to Jon, if Ghost's eyes are most associated with blood, that kind of matches with the possibility that Ghost's wolf body will be sacrificed by fire in order to send the merged direwolf / Jon spirit back into the resurrected Jon body. (There's a "John Brown's Body" joke to be made here somewhere) If Ghost is blood red, and he is burned in the fire, resurrected Jon might be more like his AA dream - black ice for hands, like Coldhands, but with a burning red sword, which could be literal, or it could mean the ability to control fire magic safely. His black ice hands might be the "hilt" to wield this sorcery. And that's irrespective of whether it is Dawn or a V steel sword that ends up burning red in his hands - the logic still holds.

#232 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 04:01 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:
Did it ever strike you as weird that Bloodraven seemed taken aback when Bran called him a three-eyed crow? Bloodraven thought Bran was referring to him being a former black brother - a crow. I put that down to greenseers not knowing how they appeared to the people whose dreams they entered. But maybe there was something else going on? I mean, what did you guys think when Euron appeared and we seemed to have another three-eyed crow on our hands, this time one that really is associated with crows not ravens? Mixed things up. Shouldn't Bloodraven have appeared as a raven or a tree?
Yes--I've wondered about this, too. Like Lady Dyanna said, they do seem like different entities. Am thinking that the Children and greenseers may not make up unified factions. There's that mention in the World Book about the Starks defeating a Warg King who was allied with a "tribe" of Children. Makes it sound like not all of the Children agree all of the time. So, I was thinking it might mean Bloodraven and the 3-eyed crow weren't necessarily the same person, but working together. Or even independently.
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:
Benjen - well this is a long theory and depends on taking each situation we see him in and interpreting it differently, just as you would in a murder mystery when you suddenly become aware of who the culprit is. So I can just use a few examples here or it will get too long.
As I stated before, his bloodline is the "iciest" of the current living Starks and aligns him with Dany, Jon's aunt of fire, as Jon's uncle of ice. If there is a human avatar of Ice like Dany is for fire, Benjen's bloodline makes him the likeliest.
He also manipulated Jon into the Night's Watch - take a look at that conversation he has with him when Jon's at his lowest point. He seems to be sympathizing with him, while rubbing salt into his wounds. Then when Jon impulsively says he wants to join the Night's Watch, instead of telling him the truth about the kinds of men there and the life they lead, he says the one thing guaranteed to make Jon want to join then and there - "you should sire some bastards first". Either that was incredibly insensitive or he was playing Jon. He leaves the conversation aware that Jon spoke on impulse, and giving the impression that he's against Jon joining. Later, though, Maester Luwin tells Catelyn and Ned that Benjen approached him saying Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. WTF? I though to myself. I spent the rest of the book suspicious of Maester Luwin for misrepresenting a conversation in order to get Jon onto the Night's Watch. But Luwin proves to be a good guy. So he was telling the truth. That means that Benjen really did tell Maester Luwin as much and his goal from the beginning was to get Jon to the Wall. Why? Classic Star Wars. To claim him for the "other" side when the time comes. Jon's a swing hitter - better have him batting for ice.
Not sure about the bolded:
Spoiler: Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. "You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall."
Jon swelled with pride. "Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I'm the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle."
"Notable achievements."
"Take me with you when you go back to the Wall," Jon said in a sudden rush. "Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will."
Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"
"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."
He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

"You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor."
"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."
"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."
"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.
"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."
Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"
Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity."
Benjen seems like he's measuring up how Jon sees the world. After Jon makes the statement about Daeren Targaryen, Benjen seems less eager. Like he realizes how Jon sees the world--too idealistic, perhaps. Just not sure if I'm seeing what you are seeing re: goading Jon.
Lady Barbrey, on 25 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:
Spoiler: I also suspect he has skinchanging and greenseeing abilities, or an icy version of them, almost as strong as Bran's. Something happened to Hodor in the past. And something happened to Hodor around the time of the dagger attack. I don't believe Joffrey was the culprit, though he might have provided the dagger. That was just a vague red herring Martin needed to pacify us with because revealing who was behind it is going to be a major revelation in all kinds of other ways. It was too soon. Aside from the Lannister twins, nobody wanted to kill Bran, until, as a result of his fall and his coma, he began greendreaming. That has to be the cause of the murder attempt, I think, and through powers iike Melisandre's or something else, Benjen recognized a future enemy.
So by some means he tries and fails to kill his "Summer" nephew, but does succeed in bringing the "other" one, the 'Ghost" one - to the Wall.
Very Richard III! And very Littlefinger! I don't buy that Benjen and Lyanna had a cosy Starkish relationship. He might have loved her but I think he resented her too. Think back to Bran's vision of Lyanna beating Benjen up in swordplay, viciously hitting him on the thigh with her branch so that he falls. She was two years older, bigger, stronger and was not holding back against her 7 year old brother (if he was Bran's age). This did not remind me of Arya at all, and nor does it remind Bran of her when he takes a second look. Arya is competitive and fierce but she is also fiercely fair, more like her father. This seemed more a weaker version of Brandon beating up Littlefinger, and look at how that turned out. We also have the real Benjen personality I would say reflected in Rickon. Rickon wants to play Lord of the Crossing but as soon as he's hit, Shaggy Dog savages the Walder that did it. Rickon's fine with the Walders afterward, but in that first interaction we see that he gets his own back even at 4. Then we get Lyanna dumping a glass of wine on Benjen's head because he teases her for sniffling. In front of a prince and all the lords and ladies and famed heroes of the court. Overreact much, Lyanna? Think how humiliating that must have felt to a 12 year old. But we don't even have to imagine it, because Joffrey pours a glass of wine on Tyrion's head at his wedding, and we get to hear all Tyrion's humiliated but trying to rise above it thoughts. We can't know what was going on in Benjen's head but we are shown through echoes of those moments that they were likely not friendly towards his sister. Littlefinger, Tyrion, Rickon, Benjen - the youngest, the smallest, who always get their own back. The valonqar. That's the way George plays.
So since I'm making Benjen a mystery suspect, I'm just going further out on this limb to say I think he was behind some of the wrongness at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy - that to get revenge on his sister he relayed a wrong message or did something to screw it all up, not meaning it to go to the extent it did. Then he ends up as The Stark at Winterfell and news of his father's and brother's brutal deaths come to him. The guilt! The thoughts of vengeance! A little trip to the crypts! A little transformation like our girl Dany! A missing sword and the spirit of an undead Stark joins with a living one. All conjecture here.
Didn't you find it odd that the first attack on the Wall is an intelligent plan to kill the LC by planting dead men that were under Benjen's command outside the Wall so they'll be brought inside? And why kill the LC? The men didn't have much of a choice of leaders at that point. If the LC died, I very much suspect Benjen would have had a clear path to the LCship. But foiled! So no point in returning then. Back to the Others and other plans.
I don't know all the details. How could I? But Benjen is very high on my suspect list of playing a deep game. If he returns, I expect he'll have good reasons for his vacation, and seemingly be a strong force for protection, of the North and the Wall. Before he turns "icy". AHAHAHAHA!
This would be a fabulous twist--but I can't buy it. Not yet. Benjen has yet to show signs of the vindictiveness seen in the examples given above. Plus, I think Martin said none of Ned's generation were wargs. On the Harrenhal and toj and the "plan" to kill Mormont--it's all fabulously cloak and dagger--but I'm not seeing it.
Will be thrilled to see your essay on it, though. Because, as I say--would make a great twist.

#233 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 04:09 PM
superunknown5, on 26 Sept 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:
As discussed earlier, Ghost has red eyes of blood, not fire, hence garnets in the pommel rather than rubies.
As you note, rubies are linked to fire.
Garnets also have an interesting association:
Quote: Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. - Reek, ADwD
Another point in favor of ALJ, IMO. If you want to go down my crazy Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole, this may be a hint. Arthur Dayne is depicted as the poster boy of chivalry. Ramsay is basically the exact opposite, cruel and psychotic and pure evil. Ramsay and Jon are the point counter-point, the yin and the yang, the two bastard snows.
Okay--that's putting the garnets into a context I hadn't thought of. I like this! Jon--self-sacrifice and defense of others. Ramsay--self-assertion and sacrifice of others.
Even the way Ramsay and Jon are using garnets is a type of counterpoint. Ramsay--ornamentation, falsely portraying him as "legitimate." Jon--earned sword where the garnets accurately portray the eyes of his wolf. They are counterpoints of each other. This works.
Well done!

#234 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 04:13 PM
Kytheros, on 26 Sept 2015 - 1:19 PM, said:
Perhaps "more sorcerous magics" is the wrong term. Magic other than just the warging. Magic with greater effects than riding in an animal or dreaming what your bonded animal is up to or knows. Magic other than the green dreams and green seeing that Jojen and Bran have demonstrated. Other than the warging, all the abilities Bran has thus far demonstrated or been introduced to have been more of a long term, strategic nature, perhaps Jon will have more near-term, tactical abilities - or perhaps they'll be connected to the precursor empire theory of Stark and White Walker origins. Who knows, but if magic is a blade without a hilt, and Ghost is a pommel/hilt (as symbolized through Longclaw), perhaps Jon will be able to use certain forms of magics safely, or at least more safely, relative to someone lacking a bond to produce a hilt for their magic, or more precisely or more accurately or with greater focus or strength.
Jon's finding magics with more immediate benefit--maybe. I can definitely see his warging Ghost for more tactical options. And the magics of the Starks and Long Night--I keep thinking we've seen the traces of that at Craster's with the sacrifices. Jon rejects that. Sees a natural magic with the ice at sunrise instead.
So, using some magics for tactical support--that I could see. Delving too far into magics per se--like Bloodraven, or Mel--Having a hard time seeing that.

#235 Kytheros
Posted Today, 05:31 PM
Sly Wren, on 26 Sept 2015 - 3:13 PM, said:
Jon's finding magics with more immediate benefit--maybe. I can definitely see his warging Ghost for more tactical options. And the magics of the Starks and Long Night--I keep thinking we've seen the traces of that at Craster's with the sacrifices. Jon rejects that. Sees a natural magic with the ice at sunrise instead.    So, using some magics for tactical support--that I could see. Delving too far into magics per se--like Bloodraven, or Mel--Having a hard time seeing that.
Could also tie into R+L=Lightbringer.
Or, speaking of Bloodraven, Bran is clearly being groomed as the next greenseer, Tree-Bloodraven's successor, perhaps Jon is/will be Human(pre-tree)-Bloodraven's successor.
It's hard to say what magics Jon would use or not use, since we know so little about how magic really works and the various forms it takes. Plus Jon probably just had a brush with death, and that kind of experience can change you; plus, he'll almost certainly be a lot closer to Ghost and embrace that bond, which will affect him as well.
As far as Craster goes, I think what he's doing is a debased and corrupted magic - if he's actually doing magic - possibly derived from corrupted and mostly forgotten legends ... that only partially works - it is enough to protect his home, but even he wouldn't dare go beyond it at night without a babe to give up in exchange. Craster can get a limited protection, and I think it's more that the White Walkers are keeping some sort of deal with him than he actually has magical protection from what he does. It is also possible that if Craster were living anywhere else, what he does wouldn't work.

236-240

#236 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 06:02 PM
Back tracking a little to when we were discussing Drogo's pyre and what the sacrifice was...
Quote: Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."
<snip>
Quote: The godswife did not cry out as they dragged her to Khal Drogo's pyre and staked her down amidst his treasures. Dany poured the oil over the woman's head herself. "I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me."
"You will not hear me scream," Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.
"I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life." Mirri Maz Duur opened her mouth, but made no reply. As she stepped away Dany saw that the contempt was gone from the maegi's flat black eyes; in its place was something that might have been fear.
<snip>
Something else I found interesting in the same chapter regarding the directions in which the pyre was built and Drogo was laid.
Quote: The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks.

#237 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 06:02 PM
Double post
Edited by DarkSister1001, Today, 06:03 PM.

#238 Sly Wren
Posted 10 minutes ago
Kytheros, on 26 Sept 2015 - 4:31 PM, said:
Could also tie into R+L=Lightbringer. Or, speaking of Bloodraven, Bran is clearly being groomed as the next greenseer, Tree-Bloodraven's successor, perhaps Jon is/will be Human(pre-tree)-Bloodraven's successor. It's hard to say what magics Jon would use or not use, since we know so little about how magic really works and the various forms it takes. Plus Jon probably just had a brush with death, and that kind of experience can change you; plus, he'll almost certainly be a lot closer to Ghost and embrace that bond, which will affect him as well.
1. Yes--it could tie into R+L=Lightbringer--some kind of magic tied to Jon via parentage. And Jon does identify himself as a sword right in his very first POV--"I'm the better sword."
2. Agree that Bran is being groomed as successor--but I'm still not sure I trust what that might mean. Bloodraven makes me skittish and I want Bran back home. Not rational, I know, but I keep thinking they would all be better off with no magics beyond their warging and the beauty of ice at dawn.
3. You're right--no idea what's going to happen or how dead Jon might be. Or how that might change him. Still, when faced with tough decisions, Jon keeps making the self-sacrificing choice. Not sure even a brush with death could completely undo that instinct.
Kytheros, on 26 Sept 2015 - 4:31 PM, said:
As far as Craster goes, I think what he's doing is a debased and corrupted magic - if he's actually doing magic - possibly derived from corrupted and mostly forgotten legends ... that only partially works - it is enough to protect his home, but even he wouldn't dare go beyond it at night without a babe to give up in exchange. Craster can get a limited protection, and I think it's more that the White Walkers are keeping some sort of deal with him than he actually has magical protection from what he does. It is also possible that if Craster were living anywhere else, what he does wouldn't work.
I Agree completely. Underscores the dangers of magics and swords without hilts, etc.

#239 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
DarkSister1001, on 26 Sept 2015 - 5:02 PM, said:
Back tracking a little to when we were discussing Drogo's pyre and what the sacrifice was...
Quote: Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."
<snip>
Quote: The godswife did not cry out as they dragged her to Khal Drogo's pyre and staked her down amidst his treasures. Dany poured the oil over the woman's head herself. "I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me."
"You will not hear me scream," Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.
"I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life." Mirri Maz Duur opened her mouth, but made no reply. As she stepped away Dany saw that the contempt was gone from the maegi's flat black eyes; in its place was something that might have been fear.
This scene is just disturbing to me--Dany really should know better. And those lines about Dany's being like a child using magics--only death can pay for life. Mirri's death, of course. The dragon comes out of her head in the HotU vision. But also the death of Dany's innocence? Dany's humanity--no more children? Just how much did this sacrifice cost?
DarkSister1001, on 26 Sept 2015 - 5:02 PM, said:
Something else I found interesting in the same chapter regarding the directions in which the pyre was built and Drogo was laid.
Quote: The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks.
Yes--Pretty Pig brings up this passage in her analysis of the tent ritual here: http://thelasthearth...mmd-tent-ritual
That "north south ice fire"--I haven't come up with a way to read that yet. Also--"drink from the cup of ice drink from the cup of fire"--seems to suggest that the sacrifice, while a fire and blood ritual, is still somehow tied to ice. Perhaps both fire and ice rituals are part of the same magic? A magic Jon won't embrace--at least not yet?
Any ideas?

#240 LmL
Posted 11 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 26 Sept 2015 - 9:44 PM, said:
This scene is just disturbing to me--Dany really should know better. And those lines about Dany's being like a child using magics--only death can pay for life. Mirri's death, of course. The dragon comes out of her head in the HotU vision. But also the death of Dany's innocence? Dany's humanity--no more children? Just how much did this sacrifice cost?
Yes--Pretty Pig brings up this passage in her analysis of the tent ritual here: http://thelasthearth...mmd-tent-ritual
That "north south ice fire"--I haven't come up with a way to read that yet. Also--"drink from the cup of ice drink from the cup of fire"--seems to suggest that the sacrifice, while a fire and blood ritual, is still somehow tied to ice. Perhaps both fire and ice rituals are part of the same magic? A magic Jon won't embrace--at least not yet?
Any ideas?
*cough cough*

241-245

#241 Sly Wren
Posted 27 minutes ago
LmL, on 26 Sept 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:
This notion ties quite nicely to my RLJ notions of Jon being red fire tempered in black ice. Rhaegar's dragon blood, but tempered and balanced by Lyanna's icy northern blood. Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath, as I like to say. Notice in his Azor Ahai dream, he wields the burning red sword, but he himself is armored in black ice. When Jon resurrects and merges with his pale shadow, his Ghost, perhaps the ice won't be black anymore.
It's just like when Ned dips his black and bloody sword into the cold black waters ("black as night") of the WF godswood pond. Ned's sword, "Ice," is black, so you could certainly call that "Black Ice," as I am fond of doing. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail's unique appearance is described as "waves of blood and night" (Which looks like this, btw, fucking badass). Ned dips the black sword into the black as night pond, washing off the blood. He's making waves of blood and night.
You guys were discussing the blood and fire dichotomy re: rubies and garnets. I've picked up on that too. Sometimes blood and fire are delineated, and other times they are equated. The comet is either burning or bleeding, and the comet's red is described as "blood red, fire red, the dragon's tail" as well as "that terrible red, the color of blood and flame and sunsets." It's interesting that Jon's wolf's eyes are made distinct from Mel's Eyes... because aren't Ghost's eyes also described as embers in one place? I'll have to hunt that down. In any case, Jon's sword burns red, Ghosts's eyes are blood... blood and fire, fire and blood. Where have I heard that before? ;P
Okay--I read this way too fast.
1. Jon as tempered fire in ice--that might account for the difference he sees in Ghost's eyes vs. Mel's. He notes that the red of their eyes is different--that Ghost is not like fiery Mel but instead like a weirwood.
Spoiler: It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.
But you are right--he does also see Ghost's eyes burn. When they are defending Sam:
Spoiler: Hours later, as the castle slept, three of them paid a call on his cell. Grenn held his arms while Pyp sat on his legs. Jon could hear Rast's rapid breathing asGhost leapt onto his chest. The direwolf's eyes burned red as embers as his teeth nipped lightly at the soft skin of the boy's throat, just enough to draw blood. "Remember, we know where you sleep," Jon said softly.
Jon's relationship with Ghost and his fiery, weirwoody eyes--it really does seem like there's a distinction between what Ghost's fire and blood images are vs. Mel's--even though Ghost has an affinity for Mel.
It could be the tempering--fire in ice. It could be the ancientness of Ghost. It could be the naturalness--NOT the violence-based nature of fire and blood (both with the Bloodstone Emperor and Day and her dragons). The bond between Jon and Ghost seems innate and natural. And Jon eschews dominance (and how often does anyone eschew anything in these novels? How often do we get to say "eschew"? ). He wants to do great things, yes. But not at the expense of others.
So, maybe that's tempering--a fire and blood (like Ghost, not Dany) that protects instead of conquers. Which might explain why the sword in the dream is only seen as burning red after the Wildling fight turns into a fight against wights. A fight not for conquering but for defense of all humans: guarding "the realms of men".
LmL, on 26 Sept 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:
Lightbringer was made from the black bleeding stones, and I can't help but wonder if the pale stone from which Dawn is made isn't the pale stone of a comet, but of a petrified weirwood. I've discussed this idea with some of you before, I believe, but there's an awful lot of stuff about wooden swords in the books. And why should alien meteors have all the fun? Why not an earth sword to fight the meteor sword? I know I am hopping around a lot here but I think most of you are familiar with my rhetoric. But speaking of Dawn, as a pale stone tres word, that explains the connection to the Others, because I have been thinking for a while that the Others have something to do with greenseers transformed by ice, and petrified weirwoods. Dawn is like milkglass, the Others' bones are like milkglass. If Dawn is pale stone from a petrified weir, and the Others come from some sort of dead trees / dead greeds... I dunno, kind of makes sense to me.
I've been mulling this a bit since you brought it up--I like the idea. Especially since, as you say above, the Others and their creation or control seems like it might be tied to the weirwoods.
The legend of the falling star gives me pause--but it could easily be jumbled with other stories. The other thing that gives me pause is the connection between Dawn and the Wall and Jon's moment with ice outside Craster's. He's seeing the transformative power of ice under the light of dawn. Sees the hilt of the Sword of the Morning looking like a diamond. Like the blades of grass look like emeralds in ice. Gemstones--stones. Not petrified wood into stone.
We've no idea what petrified weirwood would be like--perhaps it has that gem-like, icy quality. Just seems like Jon's seeing something different. Though the tie between Ghost and the dawn and the Wall and the weirwoods--put that all together, weirwood sword has to be on the table.
LmL, on 26 Sept 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:
One last thought, getting back to Jon, if Ghost's eyes are most associated with blood, that kind of matches with the possibility that Ghost's wolf body will be sacrificed by fire in order to send the merged direwolf / Jon spirit back into the resurrected Jon body. (There's a "John Brown's Body" joke to be made here somewhere) If Ghost is blood red, and he is burned in the fire, resurrected Jon might be more like his AA dream - black ice for hands, like Coldhands, but with a burning red sword, which could be literal, or it could mean the ability to control fire magic safely. His black ice hands might be the "hilt" to wield this sorcery. And that's irrespective of whether it is Dawn or a V steel sword that ends up burning red in his hands - the logic still holds.
I agree that Ghost may need to be sacrificed. But blood/fire sacrifice--that is just an innate badness in the novels so far. A different kind of sacrifice for Ghost would fit better with Jon's ethics--since Ghost and Jon are one.
And, yes, a resurrected Jon might have more ability to manage magics. But the Stark kids already have that ability via their wolves--and can abuse it (as we see with Bran). As long as they stick to the natural bond with their solve, they seem okay, Not sure even resurrection would change that dynamic.
Edited for spelling

#242 Sly Wren
Posted 35 minutes ago
double--weird editing mistake.

#243 Brianpowers
Posted 17 minutes ago
LmL, on 25 Sept 2015 - 7:17 PM, said:
Nobody should like or trust those black swords.
That's why I like the idea of the valyrians being what was left of the bloodstone emperors people, and that all the swords made by the Great Empire were like Dawn.
The Valyrians were obsessed with power and sorcery, no matter the costs, that's why they enslaved so many people to work the mines under the 14 flames, not to mention all the incest.
We have the Great Empire making all theses White glowy swords, then bloodstone comes along and with his tiger bride (cotf- cats eyes, black claws, dark skin with paler spots\stripes) and practices dark magic, slavery, necromancy.
All valyrian steel swords were originally like Dawn until they were darkened by fire and blood magic.
I keep seeing danys miscarriage dream, with the pale, fire swords as what the G.E. was, and now Dawn is the only untainted one left. It could all work with Dawn being ancestral ice.
Sam reads about dragonsteel slaying the others, but the oldest V.S. Swords are about 500 years, the text Sam was reading was old, its unspecified, but I would say thousands of years old. Dawn is always described as white, glowing, but dawn is not covered in glyphs from valyrian spells, that I know of.
The dragonsteel that is described in the old book at the wall is Dawn, the G.E. made use of dragons to create the base of the hightower and the five forts, dawn is all that is left of the original dragonsteel.
Black Valyrian Steel versus White Dawn.
Black Ironwood(Ebony) versus White Weirwood.
Or something like that.

#244 LmL
Posted Today, 01:26 PM
Brianpowers, on 27 Sept 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:
That's why I like the idea of the valyrians being what was left of the bloodstone emperors people, and that all the swords made by the Great Empire were like Dawn. The Valyrians were obsessed with power and sorcery, no matter the costs, that's why they enslaved so many people to work the mines under the 14 flames, not to mention all the incest.  We have the Great Empire making all theses White glowy swords, then bloodstone comes along and with his tiger bride (cotf- cats eyes, black claws, dark skin with paler spots\stripes) and practices dark magic, slavery, necromancy. All valyrian steel swords were originally like Dawn until they were darkened by fire and blood magic. I keep seeing danys miscarriage dream, with the pale, fire swords as what the G.E. was, and now Dawn is the only untainted one left. It could all work with Dawn being ancestral ice.  Sam reads about dragonsteel slaying the others, but the oldest V.S. Swords are about 500 years, the text Sam was reading was old, its unspecified, but I would say thousands of years old. Dawn is always described as white, glowing, but dawn is not covered in glyphs from valyrian spells, that I know of.  The dragonsteel that is described in the old book at the wall is Dawn, the G.E. made use of dragons to create the base of the hightower and the five forts, dawn is all that is left of the original dragonsteel. Black Valyrian Steel versus White Dawn. Black Ironwood(Ebony) versus White Weirwood.  Or something like that.
Only quibble I have is that Ironwood is not ebony, as a certain poster has asserted. But if you want to say they can play the same symbolic role (black wood), then I'm with you. Black wood and black stags are (I think) a symbol for corrupt greenseers.
If Azor Ahai was some kind of greenseer as I suspect, and as is suggested by the Tiger Woman bride (probably from the Holy Isle of Leng ), then the Dawn swords may be made of weirwood. I tend to agree that the pale swords of the Great DAWN empire may well be linked to the pale sword DAWN. Seems obvious, at least once you connect the GEOTD to Battle Isle and the Dayne family.
Edited by LmL, Today, 01:28 PM.

#245 LmL
Posted Today, 01:46 PM
Sly Wren, on 27 Sept 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:
Okay--I read this way too fast.   1. Jon as tempered fire in ice--that might account for the difference he sees in Ghost's eyes vs. Mel's. He notes that the red of their eyes is different--that Ghost is not like fiery Mel but instead like a weirwood.
Spoiler
But you are right--he does also see Ghost's eyes burn. When they are defending Sam:
Spoiler
Jon's relationship with Ghost and his fiery, weirwoody eyes--it really does seem like there's a distinction between what Ghost's fire and blood images are vs. Mel's--even though Ghost has an affinity for Mel.
It could be the tempering--fire in ice. It could be the ancientness of Ghost. It could be the naturalness--NOT the violence-based nature of fire and blood (both with the Bloodstone Emperor and Day and her dragons). The bond between Jon and Ghost seems innate and natural. And Jon eschews dominance (and how often does anyone eschew anything in these novels? How often do we get to say "eschew"?). He wants to do great things, yes. But not at the expense of others.
I wonder if the fire of the direwolves is maybe distinct from Mel's in that it is not corrupted? Other than that I can't see a difference. I had even forgotten about the "two red suns" quote. It's the "eyes as embers" that grabbed my attention, because Mel talks about "even an ember in the ashes can ignite a great blaze" as she talks of Stannis as AA. If ressurected Jon wields red fire or is symbolized by red fire, it seems possible this "blaze" will be ignored from those embers in Ghost. And Ghost's comparison to the weirwood might be another link between a red fire sword and weirwoods. But. it the red fire of a black sword - it would have to be Dawn to be a pure fire, wouldn't it?
Quote
   So, maybe that's tempering--a fire and blood (like Ghost, not Dany) that protects instead of conquers. Which might explain why the sword in the dream is only seen as burning red after the Wildling fight turns into a fight against wights. A fight not for conquering but for defense of all humans: guarding "the realms of men".
This fits with the idea of Jons icy nature tempering or balancing the fire magic. Only right to wield it against a worthy foe, just as Ser Galladon only unsheathed his magic sword against non-mortal opponents. Galladon got his sword when "the maiden lost her heart to him," a clear Nissa Nissa allusion.
Quote
I've been mulling this a bit since you brought it up--I like the idea. Especially since, as you say above, the Others and their creation or control seems like it might be tied to the weirwoods.   The legend of the falling star gives me pause--but it could easily be jumbled with other stories. The other thing that gives me pause is the connection between Dawn and the Wall and Jon's moment with ice outside Craster's. He's seeing the transformative power of ice under the light of dawn. Sees the hilt of the Sword of the Morning looking like a diamond. Like the blades of grass look like emeralds in ice. Gemstones--stones. Not petrified wood into stone.    We've no idea what petrified weirwood would be like--perhaps it has that gem-like, icy quality. Just seems like Jon's seeing something different. Though the tie between Ghost and the dawn and the Wall and the weirwoods--put that all together, weirwood sword has to be on the table.
We do, actually - Nagga's Bones are petrified weirwood. And they in turn are symbolically related to the meteors, because the idea of a "sea dragon" refers to a moon meteor. This dichotomy is actually all over the places. The Iron Islands have two famous thrones - the Grey Kings throne made of "Nagga's Bones" is actually a weirwood throne, as was his crown - this is the inspiration from the driftwood crown they wear during certain periods. They also have a black iron crown, which is the one Balon wears. The other famous throne is the Seastone Chair, which is also "Nagga's Bones" because it is a moon meteor - the body of the sea dragon. The Sea Dragon is made to refer to both weirwoods (petrified weirwoods) and the greasy black meteor stone.
When Dany steps into the firestorm of Drogo's pyre, she is showers with ashes and cinders, symbolizing the meteor shower, but again we see burning wood taking the place of meteors. I think I have an idea about what George is saying here, to some extent, but I'm still working on it. It also has to do with the idea that the branches of the Yggdrasil tree (and many similar "world trees found throughout mythology) represent the heavens. Thus, fruit or birds in the branches represent heavenly bodies, and if some plucks a fruit from a tree or if ravens "erupt" from the branches, that represents things falling from heaven. It may be one implication here is the equivalency between a sword made from a meteor and one made from a tree. They are opposites, inverted analogs. Something like that.
Quote
I agree that Ghost may need to be sacrificed. But blood/fire sacrifice--that is just an innate badness in the novels so far. A different kind of sacrifice for Ghost would fit better with Jon's ethics--since Ghost and Jon are one.
I don't know if agree with your "wall of magical purity" around Jon, if you take my meaning. Jon won't be the one to sacrifice Ghost, because he will be dead until after the resurrection. If Mel is involved in the resurrection... fire might be the ticket. Mel burns Varymyr's eagle and it kicks his spirit out of the animal. Could be foreshadowing for the method to kick GhostJon spirit out of the wolf body. And again, Jon resists dark magic, but he's also been forced to do so many things he vowed not to do so far, to serve a greater good. dark magic may well fit this theme. I'd keep an open mind to it if I were you, at the least. Remember, grey characters.
Quote
And, yes, a resurrected Jon might have more ability to manage magics. But the Stark kids already have that ability via their wolves--and can abuse it (as we see with Bran). As long as they stick to the natural bond with their wolves, they seem okay, Not sure even resurrection would change that dynamic.   Edited for spelling

246-250

#246 Brianpowers
Posted Today, 04:27 PM
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:
Only quibble I have is that Ironwood is not ebony, as a certain poster has asserted. But if you want to say they can play the same symbolic role (black wood), then I'm with you. Black wood and black stags are (I think) a symbol for corrupt greenseers. If Azor Ahai was some kind of greenseer as I suspect, and as is suggested by the Tiger Woman bride (probably from the Holy Isle of Leng ), then the Dawn swords may be made of weirwood. I tend to agree that the pale swords of the Great DAWN empire may well be linked to the pale sword DAWN. Seems obvious, at least once you connect the GEOTD to Battle Isle and the Dayne family.
Yeah, I put ironwood and ebony as a placeholder for the as yet unknown trees at the house of the undying, which is probably a separate black wood tree altogether. Ironwood is supposed to burn with a blue flame though, and when things are built with a black and white wood its usually Weirwood and ebony,like at the house of black and white and tobho motts( sure I spelled that wrong, but u get the gist.) shop so I included them both.
I like the idea if corrupted greenseers being the original warlocks

#247 Brianpowers
Posted Today, 04:41 PM
Dawn has never been described as having any markings, or glyphs. I'm really liking the idea of all valyrian steel being originally from the Great Empire, and has been corrupted with fire and blood magic darkening the white swords.

#248 Sly Wren
Posted 6 minutes ago
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:
I wonder if the fire of the direwolves is maybe distinct from Mel's in that it is not corrupted? Other than that I can't see a difference. I had even forgotten about the "two red suns" quote. It's the "eyes as embers" that grabbed my attention, because Mel talks about "even an ember in the ashes can ignite a great blaze" as she talks of Stannis as AA. If ressurected Jon wields red fire or is symbolized by red fire, it seems possible this "blaze" will be ignored from those embers in Ghost. And Ghost's comparison to the weirwood might be another link between a red fire sword and weirwoods. But. it the red fire of a black sword - it would have to be Dawn to be a pure fire, wouldn't it?
Agree that the fire from Ghost seems "natural"--like the way Jon describes Ghost--blood and bone. Natural. Like the weirwoods were before blood sacrifices? Maybe.
Though the V6 prologue gives a lot of info or wargs, it also seems to make clear that the Stark kids' relationships with their wolves is different than Varamyr's with his animals. More natural and not forces. Plus, the wolves seem capable of influencing the kids--Jon's rages, Sansa's smacking Robin. A natural bond right off the bat.
So, maybe Dawn's fire has that natural quality, vs. twisted like Valyrian Steel? Perhaps "natural" is a better implied metaphor. Maybe.
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:
This fits with the idea of Jons icy nature tempering or balancing the fire magic. Only right to wield it against a worthy foe, just as Ser Galladon only unsheathed his magic sword against non-mortal opponents. Galladon got his sword when "the maiden lost her heart to him," a clear Nissa Nissa allusion.
Yes--though a Nissa Nissa twist--a gift without grisliness. A gift from a goddess.

Thus a Lady of the Lake allusion, too--sword given in time of need, for a specific mission, to be returned afterwards.
Galladon has a Galahad allusion right in his name. And Jon has some Galahad qualites--but is missing a few. He's a good guy, not a paragon.
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:
We do, actually - Nagga's Bones are petrified weirwood. And they in turn are symbolically related to the meteors, because the idea of a "sea dragon" refers to a moon meteor. This dichotomy is actually all over the places. The Iron Islands have two famous thrones - the Grey Kings throne made of "Nagga's Bones" is actually a weirwood throne, as was his crown - this is the inspiration from the driftwood crown they wear during certain periods. They also have a black iron crown, which is the one Balon wears. The other famous throne is the Seastone Chair, which is also "Nagga's Bones" because it is a moon meteor - the body of the sea dragon. The Sea Dragon is made to refer to both weirwoods (petrified weirwoods) and the greasy black meteor stone.
When Dany steps into the firestorm of Drogo's pyre, she is showers with ashes and cinders, symbolizing the meteor shower, but again we see burning wood taking the place of meteors. I think I have an idea about what George is saying here, to some extent, but I'm still working on it. It also has to do with the idea that the branches of the Yggdrasil tree (and many similar "world trees found throughout mythology) represent the heavens. Thus, fruit or birds in the branches represent heavenly bodies, and if some plucks a fruit from a tree or if ravens "erupt" from the branches, that represents things falling from heaven. It may be one implication here is the equivalency between a sword made from a meteor and one made from a tree. They are opposites, inverted analogs. Something like that.
1. Problem with Nagga's bones is that the description is not helpful re: do the "bones" have the milkglass quality so tied to Dawn? I couldn't find a passage that was at all helpful--vs. the Others' swords, bones, and the ice outside Craster's and the Wall--those have similar qualities to the little we know about Dawn.
2. Am liking the potential contrast between weirwood throne or sword (natural and earthly) vs. Seastone chair or Valyrian steel (unnatural and potentially unearthly). It would work as opposition. We just need more info on the bones.
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:
I don't know if agree with your "wall of magical purity" around Jon, if you take my meaning. Jon won't be the one to sacrifice Ghost, because he will be dead until after the resurrection. If Mel is involved in the resurrection... fire might be the ticket. Mel burns Varymyr's eagle and it kicks his spirit out of the animal. Could be foreshadowing for the method to kick GhostJon spirit out of the wolf body. And again, Jon resists dark magic, but he's also been forced to do so many things he vowed not to do so far, to serve a greater good. dark magic may well fit this theme. I'd keep an open mind to it if I were you, at the least. Remember, grey characters.
HA! "Purity"--now have an image of Kit Harrington doing bleach commercials in his Night's Watch clothes: "Clorox bleach--gets even your blackest blacks snow white."
Agree that if Mels raises Jon the scenarios you give have templates in story. And that Jon would have to accept what has happened to bring him back--would give his more to brood about.
But self-sacrifice is Jon's template--sacrificing what he loves and wants for what he knows needs doing. So, having to "give up" Ghost--only one of them can come back, or he switches life-forces--I don't know. But giving Ghost up--giving up himself--that's what Jon does. Even when he breaks his vows, it's for a "greater purpose."
All of this assumes he's either really or mostly dead. To be determined. But I fully agree on the grey characters. Jon's often so annoying I want to pitch him off a building. And he has plenty of flaws. Magics--not among them. But they might have to be--I agree on that point.

Edited by Sly Wren, 5 minutes ago.

#249 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
Brianpowers, on 27 Sept 2015 - 3:27 PM, said:
Yeah, I put ironwood and ebony as a placeholder for the as yet unknown trees at the house of the undying, which is probably a separate black wood tree altogether. Ironwood is supposed to burn with a blue flame though, and when things are built with a black and white wood its usually Weirwood and ebony,like at the house of black and white and tobho motts( sure I spelled that wrong, but u get the gist.) shop so I included them both. I like the idea if corrupted greenseers being the original warlocks
Interesting--the blue flame--like the Others' swords glow faintly blue. The godswoods in the North have ironwoods. Ned executes Gard on an ironwood stump. Almost seems like they are associated with protection at times--House Yronwood in Dorne (where ironwoods aren't indigenous) and their words "We Guard the Way."
But with the blue flame--I'm not sure what to do with that.

#250 LmL
Posted 34 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 27 Sept 2015 - 7:33 PM, said:
Agree that the fire from Ghost seems "natural"--like the way Jon describes Ghost--blood and bone. Natural. Like the weirwoods were before blood sacrifices? Maybe.   Though the V6 prologue gives a lot of info or wargs, it also seems to make clear that the Stark kids' relationships with their wolves is different than Varamyr's with his animals. More natural and not forces. Plus, the wolves seem capable of influencing the kids--Jon's rages, Sansa's smacking Robin. A natural bond right off the bat.    So, maybe Dawn's fire has that natural quality, vs. twisted like Valyrian Steel? Perhaps "natural" is a better implied metaphor. Maybe.   Yes--though a Nissa Nissa twist--a gift without grisliness. A gift from a goddess.   Thus a Lady of the Lake allusion, too--sword given in time of need, for a specific mission, to be returned afterwards.   Galladon has a Galahad allusion right in his name. And Jon has some Galahad qualites--but is missing a few. He's a good guy, not a paragon.    1. Problem with Nagga's bones is that the description is not helpful re: do the "bones" have the milkglass quality so tied to Dawn? I couldn't find a passage that was at all helpful--vs. the Others' swords, bones, and the ice outside Craster's and the Wall--those have similar qualities to the little we know about Dawn.   2. Am liking the potential contrast between weirwood throne or sword (natural and earthly) vs. Seastone chair or Valyrian steel (unnatural and potentially unearthly). It would work as opposition. We just need more info on the bones.   HA! "Purity"--now have an image of Kit Harrington doing bleach commercials in his Night's Watch clothes: "Clorox bleach--gets even your blackest blacks snow white."   Agree that if Mels raises Jon the scenarios you give have templates in story. And that Jon would have to accept what has happened to bring him back--would give his more to brood about.   But self-sacrifice is Jon's template--sacrificing what he loves and wants for what he knows needs doing. So, having to "give up" Ghost--only one of them can come back, or he switches life-forces--I don't know. But giving Ghost up--giving up himself--that's what Jon does. Even when he breaks his vows, it's for a "greater purpose."   All of this assumes he's either really or mostly dead. To be determined. But I fully agree on the grey characters. Jon's often so annoying I want to pitch him off a building. And he has plenty of flaws. Magics--not among them. But they might have to be--I agree on that point.
You made me chuckle out loud with your Clorox commercial. Kit could pull that off too... he was really funny on SNL

Sly Wren · November 10, 2015

251-260

#251 Sly Wren
Posted Yesterday, 11:31 PM
NOTE TO ALL POSTERS: As I promised, due to impending upgrade, I copied this thread's context and saved it. Am in process of transferring y'all's content onto the next forum. It's in chunks of 5 posts at a time in spoilers. Will take a little while--can only work on it a little at a time. But it will all be over there when the switch happens. I hope.
Am now questioning my sanity in opening the thread before the upgrade.
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 9:57 PM, said:
You made me chuckle out loud with your Clorox commercial. Kit could pull that off too... he was really funny on SNL
And on Seth Meyers.

#252 LmL
Posted Today, 03:52 AM
that's probably what I was thinking of. but anyways...

#253 Brianpowers
Posted Today, 12:24 PM
Sly Wren, on 27 Sept 2015 - 7:39 PM, said:
Interesting--the blue flame--like the Others' swords glow faintly blue. The godswoods in the North have ironwoods. Ned executes Gard on an ironwood stump. Almost seems like they are associated with protection at times--House Yronwood in Dorne (where ironwoods aren't indigenous) and their words "We Guard the Way."   But with the blue flame--I'm not sure what to do with that.
Not sure about ironwood, or much of anything else in the universe.
Possibly the old "True gods" were Weirwood(faceless) and HotU tree(nameless) or they were in opposition to one another, ironwood has a black trunk, if it has blue leaves, then the colors are in opposition of each other black\white blue\red.
When I think about these opposing colors schemes I always think about the Targaryen words and Colors
CotF.
Dragon. Weirwood. Others. HotU\Iron?
Fire and Blood and Ice and Soul and Fire
Black and Red and White and Blue and Black

#254 Sly Wren
Posted Today, 06:24 PM
Brianpowers, on 27 Sept 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:
That's why I like the idea of the valyrians being what was left of the bloodstone emperors people, and that all the swords made by the Great Empire were like Dawn.
The Valyrians were obsessed with power and sorcery, no matter the costs, that's why they enslaved so many people to work the mines under the 14 flames, not to mention all the incest.
We have the Great Empire making all theses White glowy swords, then bloodstone comes along and with his tiger bride (cotf- cats eyes, black claws, dark skin with paler spots\stripes) and practices dark magic, slavery, necromancy.
All valyrian steel swords were originally like Dawn until they were darkened by fire and blood magic. I keep seeing danys miscarriage dream, with the pale, fire swords as what the G.E. was, and now Dawn is the only untainted one left. It could all work with Dawn being ancestral ice.
I like this very much. Even fits in with Martin's nods towards Arthurian legends--the Empire of the Dawn as a Camelot, spoiled by a greedy, magical relative.
Fits with other mythologies, too, of course. But the idea that the remnant is embodied in a sword and its wielder--has that Arthurian feel.
Am interested in your phrase "darkened by blood magic"--are you thinking the extant swords were darkened? The process of making them was corrupted? The swords are tied to their wielders and only one wielder (Dawn's) remained uncorrupted? Something else?
Brianpowers, on 27 Sept 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:
Sam reads about dragonsteel slaying the others, but the oldest V.S. Swords are about 500 years, the text Sam was reading was old, its unspecified, but I would say thousands of years old. Dawn is always described as white, glowing, but dawn is not covered in glyphs from valyrian spells, that I know of.
The dragonsteel that is described in the old book at the wall is Dawn, the G.E. made use of dragons to create the base of the hightower and the five forts, dawn is all that is left of the original dragonsteel.
Black Valyrian Steel versus White Dawn.
Black Ironwood(Ebony) versus White Weirwood.  Or something like that.
Interesting--so, are you thinking that Dawn is uncorrupted dragonsteel? So far, dragons seem tied to blood magics in the novels (Dany's pyre). I'd been assuming the names got messed up in the book Sam was reading--writer assumed the sword of the Last Hero was dragonsteel, etc. But if dragons aren't innately corrupted--that could be interesting.
Brianpowers, on 28 Sept 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:
Not sure about ironwood, or much of anything else in the universe.
HA! I'm right there with you.
Brianpowers, on 28 Sept 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:
Possibly the old "True gods" were Weirwood(faceless) and HotU tree(nameless) or they were in opposition to one another, ironwood has a black trunk, if it has blue leaves, then the colors are in opposition of each other black\white blue\red.  When I think about these opposing colors schemes I always think about the Targaryen words and Colors  CotF. Dragon. Weirwood. Others. HotU\Iron?  Fire and Blood and Ice and Soul and Fire  Black and Red and White and Blue and Black
On the bolded--the idea that the trees are tied to "gods"--I agree. Am wondering if the blue and black ones have also had some "corrupting"--perhaps like the weirwoods seen at Whitetree with the horrible faces. Workship of the trees goes from communing with the dead to overcoming death (the Undying).

#255 LmL
Posted 51 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 28 Sept 2015 - 5:24 PM, said:
I like this very much. Even fits in with Martin's nods towards Arthurian legends--the Empire of the Dawn as a Camelot, spoiled by a greedy, magical relative.    Fits with other mythologies, too, of course. But the idea that the remnant is embodied in a sword and its wielder--has that Arthurian feel.   Am interested in your phrase "darkened by blood magic"--are you thinking the extant swords were darkened? The process of making them was corrupted? The swords are tied to their wielders and only one wielder (Dawn's) remained uncorrupted? Something else?   Interesting--so, are you thinking that Dawn is uncorrupted dragonsteel? So far, dragons seem tied to blood magics in the novels (Dany's pyre). I'd been assuming the names got messed up in the book Sam was reading--writer assumed the sword of the Last Hero was dragonsteel, etc. But if dragons aren't innately corrupted--that could be interesting.    HA! I'm right there with you.   On the bolded--the idea that the trees are tied to "gods"--I agree. Am wondering if the blue and black ones have also had some "corrupting"--perhaps like the weirwoods seen at Whitetree with the horrible faces. Workship of the trees goes from communing with the dead to overcoming death (the Undying).
I think all of the factions who are cheating death are violating the natural order. The undying chief among them. Dany is given some potion from Pyat Pree early on that he says will enable her to see the "spirits of the air." Their house is a palace of dust and shadows, and it even "drinks the light." The undying themselves are like dry husks. That blue heart is definitely corrupt.
Seems like they are associated with air and shadow.

#256 LmL
Posted 43 minutes ago
...and I think their projection of the "splendor of wizards" was probably their best imitation of the GEotD, or that the ancient Qarthine are emigrated from he GEotD. The lady in the splendor had a bared breast, and I think that custom must go back to Nissa Nissa.

#257 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
LmL, on 28 Sept 2015 - 8:05 PM, said:
I think all of the factions who are cheating death are violating the natural order. The undying chief among them. Dany is given some potion from Pyat Pree early on that he says will enable her to see the "spirits of the air." Their house is a palace of dust and shadows, and it even "drinks the light." The undying themselves are like dry husks. That blue heart is definitely corrupt.  Seems like they are associated with air and shadow.
Reminds me of the moment when Dany wakes up after the tent fiasco. She looks at Jorah and thinks he's been touched by the shadow. That he didn't intend to put her child in danger, but just by entering the tent--he is now shadowed.
So, dangerous not just to those that seek to cheat death, but the collateral damage to those around them.
A bit like Craster--he's got a "cold smell" about him, according to the Watch. And Jon describes his "warm" keep:
The hall stank of soot, dung, and wet dog. The air was heavy with smoke, yet somehow still damp. Rain leaked through the smoke hole in the roof. It was all a single room, with a sleeping loft above reached by a pair of splintery ladders.
Jon remembered how he'd felt the day they had left the Wall: nervous as a maiden, but eager to glimpse the mysteries and wonders beyond each new horizon. Well, here's one of the wonders, he told himself, gazing about the squalid, foul-smelling hall. The acrid smoke was making his eyes water. A pity that Pyp and Toad can't see all they're missing.
“So this is a wildling. Jon remembered Old Nan's tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls. Craster seemed to be drinking a thin yellow beer from a chipped stone cup. Perhaps he had not heard the stories.” Clash.
Then, when asked about the wights found at the Wall, Craster insists he's right with the gods. This "rightness" feels like shadow--shabby and horrible and "acrid smoke" vs. light. As though even preserving himself FROM unnatural life through unnatural means (dead babies) is still a shadow. Still a corrupted blue heart.
If any of that is true, might limit the options available to fight Others and/or dragons. If it can't be done with shadowed magic--or at least can't use shadowed magic without being shadowed oneself--how then go about it?
LmL, on 28 Sept 2015 - 8:14 PM, said:
...and I think their projection of the "splendor of wizards" was probably their best imitation of the GEotD, or that the ancient Qarthine are emigrated from he GEotD. The lady in the splendor had a bared breast, and I think that custom must go back to Nissa Nissa.
Okay--I completely missed that. Chalked it up to Martin's--well, let's call it "interest"--in breasts.
If it does go back to Nissa Nissa, it's clearly a twisted twist. Presenting her murder as willing sacrifice.

#258 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 01:50 AM
LmL, on 28 Sept 2015 - 8:14 PM, said:
...and I think their projection of the "splendor of wizards" was probably their best imitation of the GEotD, or that the ancient Qarthine are emigrated from he GEotD. The lady in the splendor had a bared breast, and I think that custom must go back to Nissa Nissa.
Nice catch!

#259 LmL
Posted 46 minutes ago
Sly Wren, on 28 Sept 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:
Reminds me of the moment when Dany wakes up after the tent fiasco. She looks at Jorah and thinks he's been touched by the shadow. That he didn't intend to put her child in danger, but just by entering the tent--he is now shadowed.    So, dangerous not just to those that seek to cheat death, but the collateral damage to those around them.   A bit like Craster--he's got a "cold smell" about him, according to the Watch. And Jon describes his "warm" keep:  The hall stank of soot, dung, and wet dog. The air was heavy with smoke, yet somehow still damp. Rain leaked through the smoke hole in the roof. It was all a single room, with a sleeping loft above reached by a pair of splintery ladders.   Jon remembered how he'd felt the day they had left the Wall: nervous as a maiden, but eager to glimpse the mysteries and wonders beyond each new horizon. Well, here's one of the wonders, he told himself, gazing about the squalid, foul-smelling hall. The acrid smoke was making his eyes water. A pity that Pyp and Toad can't see all they're missing.   So this is a wildling. Jon remembered Old Nan's tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls. Craster seemed to be drinking a thin yellow beer from a chipped stone cup. Perhaps he had not heard the stories. Clash.   Then, when asked about the wights found at the Wall, Craster insists he's right with the gods. This "rightness" feels like shadow--shabby and horrible and "acrid smoke" vs. light. As though even preserving himself FROM unnatural life through unnatural means (dead babies) is still a shadow. Still a corrupted blue heart.   If any of that is true, might limit the options available to fight Others and/or dragons. If it can't be done with shadowed magic--or at least can't use shadowed magic without being shadowed oneself--how then go about it?   Okay--I completely missed that. Chalked it up to Martin's--well, let's call it "interest"--in breasts.   If it does go back to Nissa Nissa, it's clearly a twisted twist. Presenting her murder as willing sacrifice.
It kinda seems like the equivalent to everyone on Baron Harkkonen's planet having a heart plug installed... you know, just in case. Women have one breast bared to enforce the patriarchy. "We might need to sacrifice you at any second, so keep you tit out."

#260 DarkSister1001
Posted 9 minutes ago
Brianpowers, on 27 Sept 2015 - 3:41 PM, said:
Dawn has never been described as having any markings, or glyphs. I'm really liking the idea of all valyrian steel being originally from the Great Empire, and has been corrupted with fire and blood magic darkening the white swords.
Ohhhh, I like this. Very, very much! It ties in nicely with sacrifice and worthiness. If Dawn is a sword that's equal to or greater than VS than it would make perfect sense that the ones that hold it would insist on bestowing it only on the worthiest person. (No children were harmed in the forging of this sword).
LmL, on 27 Sept 2015 - 9:57 PM, said:
You made me chuckle out loud with your Clorox commercial. Kit could pull that off too... he was really funny on SNL
lol, that dinner party was GOLD!

261-270

#261 DarkSister1001
Posted 29 September 2015 - 10:37 AM
wolfmaid7, on 25 Sept 2015 - 9:24 PM, said:
Late to the party and will have to read this entire thread,but wanted to comment on this. It could be that Leaf is pulling a fast one on Bran.The COTF have become but a legend in Westeros and though she remark that they are few in numbers i can't help but think that's BS even if they don't have "litters" or something.I think in the time they've been in isolation they could have increased in numbers.If according to Leaf the Giants were their brothers and bane to keep them from over running the place and the Giants were pretty much wiped out then her statement is no longer true.
So i doubt they are in danger of as a people right now.The other statement that intriques me is "in the world men have created there is no place for us or them (Direwolves) so what do you do except
1. Say fuck it light a cigar and watch the long setting of your sun or...
2.Change the world men created to facilate you and the other rejects.
And i think this essentially at least part of the plan create sympathetic humans who can live alongside you in the world.Magic is essential to the world and it really can be destroyed or it can't vanish.The world would have to be void of every magical creature and a few houses in Westeros would have to go extinct.But like i said on another site the problem isn't magic its those who wield it.They do not have any reverence,respect and restraint concerning it.This unfortunately is a human malady and in this context it means the greenseer or those of the greenseeing type.
They are the problem or they make it worse by getting involve in a separate game and what's needed is someone sitting on those thrones that have no alteria motive and who understands service to all.Only with that understanding would they be able to balance the seasons.
That won't stop men from killing each other,they'll go back fighting as usuall but they'll know which season to pick a fight.
Sorry for the delay, I must've missed this. I really like this idea. I got caught up in Bran's head and didn't look at the CoTF as anything but "good duys" (which is what I think GRRM intended). I always wondered about their offspring. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to this.

#262 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 03:35 PM
I am way behind on this thread! I had a couple of thoughts as I was reading through.
Garnets - for me these symbolized a baser form of rubies, and thus fit with Jon's "bastard" sword and "bastard" status (also Ramsay's) - baseborn. And as I believe Jon is likely a bastard (though a royal one), garnet is actually a better colour for him than ruby - it connects him more to the common man than to royalty - a muddied red - and I think that's a good thing. It does not, however, incorporate the "blue" or sapphire of his heritage. That would mix the two colours to "amethyst" or purple as his true stone, but you know, I think the "maroon" in the world book is a bit of a clue. This (as my analysis proved to me) was the colour of the first kingdom of men in Westeros. Maroon too is purple, usually a mix of red and blue, but more muddied, as if connected more to the earth, the people, before the split into regal pure purple. So I'm looking at Jon as "maroon" rather than the royal purple of the Daynes, and a mix of garnet and blue would give you that. Ha! That's my colour symbolism.
Dragons - just read an SSM by George, who says dragons were everywhere once upon a time, and the World Book confirms they existed. So I think we have to think of a cataclysm that forced them into the hottest parts of the world, such as the Fourteen Flames, or even areas with hot springs like Winterfell. The Long Night - the last one or even a previous one - would have done that. I do believe these were unbound natural dragons as opposed to the magically bound unnatural ones of the Valyrians. I think it would take a very rare skinchanger to overcome a dragon's willpower in the days before the Valyrians, but it could be done occasionally, and that's what the fused stone is predating the Long Night and that's where "dragon steel" came from - dragon bone (their bones are black) or steel forged with dragon fire. The baneful "horns" were developed later in Asshai to form an unnatural blood magic bond with Valyrians and their dragons, and it was practiced so long that someone like Dany inherits the potential for that bond instead of needing a horn. Most of the Targs didn't need horns, in fact, but I do wonder if that's what Aegon found - or missed - on Dragonstone after he received the letter from the Dornish. Rhaenys had talked under torture and the Dornish stole the Targaryan dragon-binding horn (though never used it, maybe couldn't). So when the birthright ran out or diluted they couldn't re-forge the bond. That's my take on it so far anyway.
I was reading an excellent post by Codename: Nymeria about all the Greatful Dead references in the novels. Martin says the band was a huge inspiration. I looked up one of the poems - Dark Star - and thought I would post it below because it is so evocative of many things we are describing.
"Dark Star" 
Dark star crashes
pouring its light
into ashes

Reason tatters
the forces tear loose
from the axis

Searchlight casting
for faults in the
clouds of delusion

shall we go,
you and I
While we can?
Through
the transitive nightfall
of diamonds

Mirror shatters
in formless reflections
of matter

Glass hand dissolving
to ice petal flowers
revolving

Lady in velvet
recedes
in the nights of goodbye

Shall we go,
you and I
While we can?
Through
the transitive nightfall
of diamonds

So many things I could say about these lyrics that say "A Song of Ice and Fire" to me. "Forces tear lose from their axis?" "The transitive nightfall of diamonds"? "Ice petal flowers revolving"? Field day for English lit majors.
Edited by Lady Barbrey, Today, 03:42 PM.

#263 LmL
Posted Today, 05:44 PM
DarkSister1001, on 29 Sept 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:
Sorry for the delay, I must've missed this. I really like this idea. I got caught up in Bran's head and didn't look at the CoTF as anything but "good duys" (which is what I think GRRM intended). I always wondered about their offspring. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to this.
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.
Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.
Just my two cents.

#264 LmL
Posted Today, 05:47 PM
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 2:35 PM, said:
I am way behind on this thread! I had a couple of thoughts as I was reading through.   Garnets - for me these symbolized a baser form of rubies, and thus fit with Jon's "bastard" sword and "bastard" status (also Ramsay's) - baseborn. And as I believe Jon is likely a bastard (though a royal one), garnet is actually a better colour for him than ruby - it connects him more to the common man than to royalty - a muddied red - and I think that's a good thing. It does not, however, incorporate the "blue" or sapphire of his heritage. That would mix the two colours to "amethyst" or purple as his true stone, but you know, I think the "maroon" in the world book is a bit of a clue. This (as my analysis proved to me) was the colour of the first kingdom of men in Westeros. Maroon too is purple, usually a mix of red and blue, but more muddied, as if connected more to the earth, the people, before the split into regal pure purple. So I'm looking at Jon as "maroon" rather than the royal purple of the Daynes, and a mix of garnet and blue would give you that. Ha! That's my colour symbolism.   Dragons - just read an SSM by George, who says dragons were everywhere once upon a time, and the World Book confirms they existed. So I think we have to think of a cataclysm that forced them into the hottest parts of the world, such as the Fourteen Flames, or even areas with hot springs like Winterfell. The Long Night - the last one or even a previous one - would have done that. I do believe these were unbound natural dragons as opposed to the magically bound unnatural ones of the Valyrians. I think it would take a very rare skinchanger to overcome a dragon's willpower in the days before the Valyrians, but it could be done occasionally, and that's what the fused stone is predating the Long Night and that's where "dragon steel" came from - dragon bone (their bones are black) or steel forged with dragon fire. The baneful "horns" were developed later in Asshai to form an unnatural blood magic bond with Valyrians and their dragons, and it was practiced so long that someone like Dany inherits the potential for that bond instead of needing a horn. Most of the Targs didn't need horns, in fact, but I do wonder if that's what Aegon found - or missed - on Dragonstone after he received the letter from the Dornish. Rhaenys had talked under torture and the Dornish stole the Targaryan dragon-binding horn (though never used it, maybe couldn't). So when the birthright ran out or diluted they couldn't re-forge the bond. That's my take on it so far anyway.   I was reading an excellent post by Codename: Nymeria about all the Greatful Dead references in the novels. Martin says the band was a huge inspiration. I looked up one of the poems - Dark Star - and thought I would post it below because it is so evocative of many things we are describing. 
"Dark Star"
Dark star crashes pouring its light into ashes  Reason tatters the forces tear loose from the axis  Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion  shall we go, you and I While we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds  Mirror shatters in formless reflections of matter  Glass hand dissolving to ice petal flowers revolving  Lady in velvet recedes in the nights of goodbye  Shall we go, you and I While we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds
So many things I could say about these lyrics that say "A Song of Ice and Fire" to me. "Forces tear lose from their axis?" "The transitive nightfall of diamonds"? "Ice petal flowers revolving"? Field day for English lit majors.
Yeah man, sounds like my theory.

#265 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 06:07 PM
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.  Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.  Just my two cents.
And this is why I feel like I'm so non-committal to theories and ideas about this story. I think I have my finger on something, and BAM! My gut tells me that the CoTF, Bran and BR are on the light side (I refrain from using "good" since there really isn't any clear cut). But I have to prepare myself for the rug being pulled out from under me. GRRM has certainly written a story that could prove my gut wrong. I do like looking at all the different possibilities and discussing them with you good people.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 2:35 PM, said:
I am way behind on this thread! I had a couple of thoughts as I was reading through.
Garnets - for me these symbolized a baser form of rubies, and thus fit with Jon's "bastard" sword and "bastard" status (also Ramsay's) - baseborn. And as I believe Jon is likely a bastard (though a royal one), garnet is actually a better colour for him than ruby - it connects him more to the common man than to royalty - a muddied red - and I think that's a good thing. It does not, however, incorporate the "blue" or sapphire of his heritage. That would mix the two colours to "amethyst" or purple as his true stone, but you know, I think the "maroon" in the world book is a bit of a clue. This (as my analysis proved to me) was the colour of the first kingdom of men in Westeros. Maroon too is purple, usually a mix of red and blue, but more muddied, as if connected more to the earth, the people, before the split into regal pure purple. So I'm looking at Jon as "maroon" rather than the royal purple of the Daynes, and a mix of garnet and blue would give you that. Ha! That's my colour symbolism.
Dragons - just read an SSM by George, who says dragons were everywhere once upon a time, and the World Book confirms they existed. So I think we have to think of a cataclysm that forced them into the hottest parts of the world, such as the Fourteen Flames, or even areas with hot springs like Winterfell. The Long Night - the last one or even a previous one - would have done that. I do believe these were unbound natural dragons as opposed to the magically bound unnatural ones of the Valyrians. I think it would take a very rare skinchanger to overcome a dragon's willpower in the days before the Valyrians, but it could be done occasionally, and that's what the fused stone is predating the Long Night and that's where "dragon steel" came from - dragon bone (their bones are black) or steel forged with dragon fire. The baneful "horns" were developed later in Asshai to form an unnatural blood magic bond with Valyrians and their dragons, and it was practiced so long that someone like Dany inherits the potential for that bond instead of needing a horn. Most of the Targs didn't need horns, in fact, but I do wonder if that's what Aegon found - or missed - on Dragonstone after he received the letter from the Dornish. Rhaenys had talked under torture and the Dornish stole the Targaryan dragon-binding horn (though never used it, maybe couldn't). So when the birthright ran out or diluted they couldn't re-forge the bond. That's my take on it so far anyway.
I was reading an excellent post by Codename: Nymeria about all the Greatful Dead references in the novels. Martin says the band was a huge inspiration. I looked up one of the poems - Dark Star - and thought I would post it below because it is so evocative of many things we are describing.
"Dark Star" 
Dark star crashes
pouring its light
into ashes

Reason tatters
the forces tear loose
from the axis

Searchlight casting
for faults in the
clouds of delusion

shall we go,
you and I
While we can?
Through
the transitive nightfall
of diamonds

Mirror shatters
in formless reflections
of matter

Glass hand dissolving
to ice petal flowers
revolving

Lady in velvet
recedes
in the nights of goodbye

Shall we go,
you and I
While we can?
Through
the transitive nightfall
of diamonds
So many things I could say about these lyrics that say "A Song of Ice and Fire" to me. "Forces tear lose from their axis?" "The transitive nightfall of diamonds"? "Ice petal flowers revolving"? Field day for English lit majors.
Hot damn!

#266 Lady Barbrey
Posted 5 minutes ago
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:
Yeah man, sounds like my theory.
Uh huh. Had you already read it?

# 267 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 07:30 PM
DarkSister1001, on 29 Sept 2015 - 5:07 PM, said:
And this is why I feel like I'm so non-committal to theories and ideas about this story. I think I have my finger on something, and BAM! My gut tells me that the CoTF, Bran and BR are on the light side (I refrain from using "good" since there really isn't any clear cut). But I have to prepare myself for the rug being pulled out from under me. GRRM has certainly written a story that could prove my gut wrong. I do like looking at all the different possibilities and discussing them with you good people.
Hot damn!
You liked that, huh? Me too! Codename:Nymeria brought it up specifically to do with Darkstar the character but I was intrigued enough to look up the lyrics themselves, and saw that they could form a basis for a number of images in the series. There's another song, called "The Other One", or something like that, that is really evocative too if you're interested.

#268 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 08:35 PM
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.  Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.  Just my two cents.
I tend to agree. But as I digressed on my own thread in response to a post by Sly Wren, there might be a problem with a human/CotF mix. Children of the Forest retreat into stones and rocks and trees and earth when they die - or rather they don't actually die unless killed, they just dwindle and retreat. They are earth-bound. But where does that leave the human soul of half-humans? We've been given glimpses that there are "souls" or "spirits" of some kind - is it natural for humans in this story to retreat into or under the earth? It suggests entrapment to me. Ghosts - spirits unable to leave the mortal coil. I know I'm using some Christian symbolism here (and I'm not religious) but this might be an essential difference. Certainly the spirit of Ned seemed to fly straight to the crypts of Winterfell - both boys (and Hodor, it scared him) felt it happen. What does this mean in terms of life after death for a family it has certainly been hinted at have CotF blood in them? Are they bound to the stones of Winterfell? Do they become trapped eternally bound to stone? Just a question, really, because I've been thinking about what Sly Wren said about the avoidance of "real death" being at root a cause of some of the problems on Planetos.
That I think is a real downside for Bran and Bloodraven if it bears out, but I too am not convinced that group is sinister. I think they will work towards the best thing for the land/earth and fire and ice entities are their natural enemies.

#269 Sly Wren
Posted 32 minutes ago
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:
It kinda seems like the equivalent to everyone on Baron Harkkonen's planet having a heart plug installed... you know, just in case. Women have one breast bared to enforce the patriarchy. "We might need to sacrifice you at any second, so keep you tit out."
Reminds me of the Heresy idea (frequently debated) of the potential hive mind of the weirwoods--collective memory. That's all well and good for the actual dead--but treating the living like members of a hive, each expendable by the whole--not good.
The Undying willing to "eat" Dany so that they can all survive--it's soylent blue. Good boy, Drogon.
DarkSister1001, on 29 Sept 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:
lol, that dinner party was GOLD!
Good to know his brooding skills work as comedy deadpan--actors need to have range.

#270 Sly Wren
Posted 21 minutes ago
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 2:35 PM, said:
Garnets - for me these symbolized a baser form of rubies, and thus fit with Jon's "bastard" sword and "bastard" status (also Ramsay's) - baseborn. And as I believe Jon is likely a bastard (though a royal one), garnet is actually a better colour for him than ruby - it connects him more to the common man than to royalty - a muddied red - and I think that's a good thing. It does not, however, incorporate the "blue" or sapphire of his heritage. That would mix the two colours to "amethyst" or purple as his true stone, but you know, I think the "maroon" in the world book is a bit of a clue. This (as my analysis proved to me) was the colour of the first kingdom of men in Westeros. Maroon too is purple, usually a mix of red and blue, but more muddied, as if connected more to the earth, the people, before the split into regal pure purple. So I'm looking at Jon as "maroon" rather than the royal purple of the Daynes, and a mix of garnet and blue would give you that. Ha! That's my colour symbolism.
I like it! Yes--I admit I'm not sold on the various gemstones being clear markers of one thing. But the garnets--used other places, but both specifically mentioned in the adornment of swords--where Tywin says they "lack fire."
I'm not a huge fan of the "ice tempers fire" argument, but you have a point on the colors--mixing them up. Warmer and darker. Less intense. Does read like "tempered" fire.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 2:35 PM, said:
Dragons - just read an SSM by George, who says dragons were everywhere once upon a time, and the World Book confirms they existed. So I think we have to think of a cataclysm that forced them into the hottest parts of the world, such as the Fourteen Flames, or even areas with hot springs like Winterfell. The Long Night - the last one or even a previous one - would have done that. I do believe these were unbound natural dragons as opposed to the magically bound unnatural ones of the Valyrians. I think it would take a very rare skinchanger to overcome a dragon's willpower in the days before the Valyrians, but it could be done occasionally, and that's what the fused stone is predating the Long Night and that's where "dragon steel" came from - dragon bone (their bones are black) or steel forged with dragon fire. The baneful "horns" were developed later in Asshai to form an unnatural blood magic bond with Valyrians and their dragons, and it was practiced so long that someone like Dany inherits the potential for that bond instead of needing a horn. Most of the Targs didn't need horns, in fact, but I do wonder if that's what Aegon found - or missed - on Dragonstone after he received the letter from the Dornish. Rhaenys had talked under torture and the Dornish stole the Targaryan dragon-binding horn (though never used it, maybe couldn't). So when the birthright ran out or diluted they couldn't re-forge the bond. That's my take on it so far anyway.
Maybe--am also wondering if they were "everywhere" because they had been created and proliferated. Can't quite get around the fact that their eggs wouldn't hatch. For a WHILE. Sounds like dragons require something more than just natural reproduction. The blood sacrifice of Dany's pyre--that does seem to have been intense. But am wondering if it was what was needed for a reboot.
If so, what rebooted the Others?
Back to my own topic before I get too caught up in yours (you need to at least try to be less interesting)--am wondering if that has something to do with the magic swords. Whatever Dawn is, its purpose isn't really shown until the right magical moment. Otherwise, it's just a really cool sword. But, like dragon hatchings and Other raisings--at the right time, it's something even more amazing.
Or maybe I just want to see a glowy sword.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 2:35 PM, said:
I was reading an excellent post by Codename: Nymeria about all the Greatful Dead references in the novels. Martin says the band was a huge inspiration. I looked up one of the poems - Dark Star - and thought I would post it below because it is so evocative of many things we are describing.
<snip>
So many things I could say about these lyrics that say "A Song of Ice and Fire" to me. "Forces tear lose from their axis?" "The transitive nightfall of diamonds"? "Ice petal flowers revolving"? Field day for English lit majors.
Yes--that thread is one of the best toys on the forums. Definite field day for the literarily inclined. CodeNym is brilliant.

#271 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.  Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.  Just my two cents.
1. Agree that "evil" is too much for Bloodraven. But he is trying to plug a child into a tree. Into a tree. TREE! He may be a greenseer, but he's lost perspective in the intense ages of those trees.
2. Leaf says a lot of things--but if they are fine with dwindling, why did they call Bran? Why is he there? They've said nothing about helping humans or stopping the Long Night or anything. Voice is sure to have his radar tuned to this and will eventually show up and insist that I am too paranoid. I will say he's too trusting. And we will both agree to reserve judgment. Which is a good position. But I'd be a LOT happier if Leaf was saying anything about helping Bran and/or those he loves.
3. Renegade greenseers--now Wolfmaid will be showing up. But I think the human component has to be considered part of the potential problem with the Children--they say they are more powerful with a human greenseer. Given Bran's reaction to "flying," seems like both Children and human greenseer could get a bit lost in in all. Like we've been talking about in both threads--the danger of things getting out of balance.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 7:35 PM, said:
I tend to agree. But as I digressed on my own thread in response to a post by Sly Wren, there might be a problem with a human/CotF mix. Children of the Forest retreat into stones and rocks and trees and earth when they die - or rather they don't actually die unless killed, they just dwindle and retreat. They are earth-bound. But where does that leave the human soul of half-humans? We've been given glimpses that there are "souls" or "spirits" of some kind - is it natural for humans in this story to retreat into or under the earth? It suggests entrapment to me. Ghosts - spirits unable to leave the mortal coil. I know I'm using some Christian symbolism here (and I'm not religious) but this might be an essential difference. Certainly the spirit of Ned seemed to fly straight to the crypts of Winterfell - both boys (and Hodor, it scared him) felt it happen. What does this mean in terms of life after death for a family it has certainly been hinted at have CotF blood in them? Are they bound to the stones of Winterfell? Do they become trapped eternally bound to stone? Just a question, really, because I've been thinking about what Sly Wren said about the avoidance of "real death" being at root a cause of some of the problems on Planetos.
That I think is a real downside for Bran and Bloodraven if it bears out, but I too am not convinced that group is sinister. I think they will work towards the best thing for the land/earth and fire and ice entities are their natural enemies.
1. I had not thought about being bound to stone--it seems like the Starks WANT to be back in Winterfell. Sansa in the Eyrie has that pre-dawn moment in a grey and black (dead) world--which tastes to her like dreams, innocence, and Winterfell.
But the idea that humans should not be bound to the trees as the greenseers are--that makes sense to me. Bloodraven doesn't not seem to be in a good way despite being alive. And I'm still trying to figure out what those singers in the roots are doing--are they feeding him? Off of him? Part of a collective?
2. But the bound soul in the religious sense (I actually am religious, so all good there)--for Martin, is that a negative if it's at their home? All the memories Bran's accessing--including (hopefully) info re: Jon--that's tied to human memory and spirit. Dust to dust--back to the earth. Not sure if that is the same as the unnaturally prolonged life. IE: when Varamyr ends up in his favorite wolf, as though it has claimed him--he seems free. So, being bound to what you love and know--is that "bound?"
The visions Dany has of the Undying, Jon's dream on the Wall--going back to the beginning. All of the myths and stories--including the World Book stories--it's all about connected history. That seems to be something Martin values, depending on how it's used. Nan's tales seem to have a lot more utility than, say, the prophecies from the Undying.
3. On the last bolded--if they help Jon get Dawn, I will eat every suspicion I've voiced. Am wondering if they can restore balance with a human greenseer, though, since a human greenseer is innately stronger, right?
Which of course brings me back to how on earth one sword could make a difference--even with a united Night's Watch. ETA: That really is not a problem I'm any closer to solving.

271-280

#271 Sly Wren
Posted A minute ago
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.  Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.  Just my two cents.
1. Agree that "evil" is too much for Bloodraven. But he is trying to plug a child into a tree. Into a tree. TREE! He may be a greenseer, but he's lost perspective in the intense ages of those trees.
2. Leaf says a lot of things--but if they are fine with dwindling, why did they call Bran? Why is he there? They've said nothing about helping humans or stopping the Long Night or anything. Voice is sure to have his radar tuned to this and will eventually show up and insist that I am too paranoid. I will say he's too trusting. And we will both agree to reserve judgment. Which is a good position. But I'd be a LOT happier if Leaf was saying anything about helping Bran and/or those he loves.
3. Renegade greenseers--now Wolfmaid will be showing up. But I think the human component has to be considered part of the potential problem with the Children--they say they are more powerful with a human greenseer. Given Bran's reaction to "flying," seems like both Children and human greenseer could get a bit lost in in all. Like we've been talking about in both threads--the danger of things getting out of balance.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 7:35 PM, said:
I tend to agree. But as I digressed on my own thread in response to a post by Sly Wren, there might be a problem with a human/CotF mix. Children of the Forest retreat into stones and rocks and trees and earth when they die - or rather they don't actually die unless killed, they just dwindle and retreat. They are earth-bound. But where does that leave the human soul of half-humans? We've been given glimpses that there are "souls" or "spirits" of some kind - is it natural for humans in this story to retreat into or under the earth? It suggests entrapment to me. Ghosts - spirits unable to leave the mortal coil. I know I'm using some Christian symbolism here (and I'm not religious) but this might be an essential difference. Certainly the spirit of Ned seemed to fly straight to the crypts of Winterfell - both boys (and Hodor, it scared him) felt it happen. What does this mean in terms of life after death for a family it has certainly been hinted at have CotF blood in them? Are they bound to the stones of Winterfell? Do they become trapped eternally bound to stone? Just a question, really, because I've been thinking about what Sly Wren said about the avoidance of "real death" being at root a cause of some of the problems on Planetos.
That I think is a real downside for Bran and Bloodraven if it bears out, but I too am not convinced that group is sinister. I think they will work towards the best thing for the land/earth and fire and ice entities are their natural enemies.
1. I had not thought about being bound to stone--it seems like the Starks WANT to be back in Winterfell. Sansa in the Eyrie has that pre-dawn moment in a grey and black (dead) world--which tastes to her like dreams, innocence, and Winterfell.
But the idea that humans should not be bound to the trees as the greenseers are--that makes sense to me. Bloodraven doesn't not seem to be in a good way despite being alive. And I'm still trying to figure out what those singers in the roots are doing--are they feeding him? Off of him? Part of a collective?
2. But the bound soul in the religious sense (I actually am religious, so all good there)--for Martin, is that a negative if it's at their home? All the memories Bran's accessing--including (hopefully) info re: Jon--that's tied to human memory and spirit. Dust to dust--back to the earth. Not sure if that is the same as the unnaturally prolonged life. IE: when Varamyr ends up in his favorite wolf, as though it has claimed him--he seems free. So, being bound to what you love and know--is that "bound?"
The visions Dany has of the Undying, Jon's dream on the Wall--going back to the beginning. All of the myths and stories--including the World Book stories--it's all about connected history. That seems to be something Martin values, depending on how it's used. Nan's tales seem to have a lot more utility than, say, the prophecies from the Undying.
3. On the last bolded--if they help Jon get Dawn, I will eat every suspicion I've voiced. Am wondering if they can restore balance with a human greenseer, though, since a human greenseer is innately stronger, right?
Which of course brings me back to how on earth one sword could make a difference--even with a united Night's Watch. ETA: That really is not a problem I'm any closer to solving.

#272 Watcher_inthe_Woods
Posted Yesterday, 10:12 PM
You all always give me so many interesting things to think about....just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed the thread Frequently I find myself including many of your thoughts and theories in the ASOIAF discussions my partner and I have.


#273 LmL
Posted Yesterday, 10:31 PM
Just for the record, I am the one who has been saying that all undead beings are violating the natural order. And I further suspect all of them have some tie back to the moon meteors. I think they are the thing which introduced the possibility of necromantic magic to the earth. That's one of the things the idea of a broken seasonal cycle represents. The entire point of mythologies which center around the cycle of life and death, of the seasons, etc, is to understand death in context of life. To see that winter is needed for spring to come, to see that death is necessary to clear the way for the next generation. This is one of the major powerful and ubiquitous myths to found in the real world. So why does it say when winter just hangs around for too long? For years, it won't give way to spring? That's a violation of the natural order because it stops the cycle. The idea of the undead matches perfectly with the Long Night. And that's when the Others appeared, and also when the Bloodstone Emperor usurped and corrupted the magic of the Great Empire of the Dawn and practiced all the dark arts, including necromancy. They are all part of the same theme.
The Dawn Age heroes ended the Long Night, but did not restore balance to the seasons. Thus, the natural cycle is still disrupted and we also still see undead beings. The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai seems to be the one who brought down the moon, which was also a "stealing fire from the gods" moment, identifying AA with Lucifer and Prometheus. The motivation for this acts seems like it was probably the desire to obtain immortality, if we analyze the story thematically. It's a version of the Garden of Eden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which the snake said would make man like gods... which it did, because the knowledge of good and evil is free will, but that's a burden as well as a curse.

#274 Lady Barbrey
Posted Yesterday, 10:33 PM
Sly Wren, on 29 Sept 2015 - 8:50 PM, said:
Quote
1. Agree that "evil" is too much for Bloodraven. But he is trying to plug a child into a tree. Into a tree. TREE! He may be a greenseer, but he's lost perspective in the intense ages of those trees.
2. Leaf says a lot of things--but if they are fine with dwindling, why did they call Bran? Why is he there? They've said nothing about helping humans or stopping the Long Night or anything. Voice is sure to have his radar tuned to this and will eventually show up and insist that I am too paranoid. I will say he's too trusting. And we will both agree to reserve judgment. Which is a good position. But I'd be a LOT happier if Leaf was saying anything about helping Bran and/or those he loves.
I honestly don't think she cares about him personally or those he loves. Why would she?
Quote
3. Renegade greenseers--now Wolfmaid will be showing up. But I think the human component has to be considered part of the potential problem with the Children--they say they are more powerful with a human greenseer. Given Bran's reaction to "flying," seems like both Children and human greenseer could get a bit lost in in all. Like we've been talking about in both threads--the danger of things getting out of balance.
Not sure I buy the renegade greenseers as such, but wouldn't discount that theory either. I think it is likely more what you're saying here - humans might be more powerful but not be meant to be greenseers. That's why Frodo had to carry the ring! Humans couldn't be trusted with that kind of power; too easily corruptible.
Quote
1. I had not thought about being bound to stone--it seems like the Starks WANT to be back in Winterfell. Sansa in the Eyrie has that pre-dawn moment in a grey and black (dead) world--which tastes to her like dreams, innocence, and Winterfell.
But the idea that humans should not be bound to the trees as the greenseers are--that makes sense to me. Bloodraven doesn't not seem to be in a good way despite being alive. And I'm still trying to figure out what those singers in the roots are doing--are they feeding him? Off of him? Part of a collective?
2. But the bound soul in the religious sense (I actually am religious, so all good there)--for Martin, is that a negative if it's at their home? All the memories Bran's accessing--including (hopefully) info re: Jon--that's tied to human memory and spirit. Dust to dust--back to the earth. Not sure if that is the same as the unnaturally prolonged life. IE: when Varamyr ends up in his favorite wolf, as though it has claimed him--he seems free. So, being bound to what you love and know--is that "bound?"
The visions Dany has of the Undying, Jon's dream on the Wall--going back to the beginning. All of the myths and stories--including the World Book stories--it's all about connected history. That seems to be something Martin values, depending on how it's used. Nan's tales seem to have a lot more utility than, say, the prophecies from the Undying.

I did ruminate on all of this on the Melisandre Night's Queen thread in response to you - I don't want to repeat it here so take a look there to see if there is anything you can buy into.
Quote
Sly Wren, on 29 Sept 2015 - 8:50 PM, said:
3. On the last bolded--if they help Jon get Dawn, I will eat every suspicion I've voiced. Am wondering if they can restore balance with a human greenseer, though, since a human greenseer is innately stronger, right?
Which of course brings me back to how on earth one sword could make a difference--even with a united Night's Watch. ETA: That really is not a problem I'm any closer to solving.
I don't think it's a sword. It's a torch that will light up the sky to broad daylight and the Others will melt like Witchy Poo.

#275 Lady Barbrey
Posted Yesterday, 10:43 PM
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:31 PM, said:
Just for the record, I am the one who has been saying that all undead beings are violating the natural order. And I further suspect all of them have some tie back to the moon meteors. I think they are the thing which introduced the possibility of necromantic magic to the earth. That's one of the things the idea of a broken seasonal cycle represents. The entire point of mythologies which center around the cycle of life and death, of the seasons, etc, is to understand death in context of life. To see that winter is needed for spring to come, to see that death is necessary to clear the way for the next generation. This is one of the major powerful and ubiquitous myths to found in the real world. So why does it say when winter just hangs around for too long? For years, it won't give way to spring? That's a violation of the natural order because it stops the cycle. The idea of the undead matches perfectly with the Long Night. And that's when the Others appeared, and also when the Bloodstone Emperor usurped and corrupted the magic of the Great Empire of the Dawn and practiced all the dark arts, including necromancy. They are all part of the same theme.  The Dawn Age heroes ended the Long Night, but did not restore balance to the seasons. Thus, the natural cycle is still disrupted and we also still see undead beings. The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai seems to be the one who brought down the moon, which was also a "stealing fire from the gods" moment, identifying AA with Lucifer and Prometheus. The motivation for this acts seems like it was probably the desire to obtain immortality, if we analyze the story thematically. It's a version of the Garden of Eden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which the snake said would make man like gods... which it did, because the knowledge of good and evil is free will, but that's a burden as well as a curse.
Oh yes you were, LmL, my apologies. Interesting that first line of the poem perfectly expresses that, doesn't it. "Dark star crashes pouring its light into ashes." Meteor crashes, pours light into ashes, suggested to me reanimating the dead. "Reason tatters" - the natural order is broken. "The forces tear loose from its axis" - magic forces binding the earth to its natural order and revolution about its axis fly free.
Seems to me something needs to bind them back again. A "needle" might do the trick. A sword, which I said earlier in the thread, whose purpose is to unify, behind the wielder, but perhaps in a magical way as well.
Very nice post. I like what you've said about stealing fire from the Gods. I think the whole BSE/AE is a story about original sin in a way. For instance, an explanation of why kinslaying and kingslaying are such taboos to the First Men if they're refugees from a Bloodstone Empire that started with both.

#276 Nozlym
Posted Yesterday, 10:49 PM
i dont know y u ppl r so hung up on Jon needing Dawn which will be the secret weapon that glows funny colours with a wave of the sword which can takes out scores of undead.
just no.
havent ppl realized that they are thinking with a mindset to literal to a few millennia old prophecy???
Lightbringer is not an actual sword but a person who i think u know who.
dont u think it funny that this great legend with this world renown sword would be on display or at least be known today where it is? with ppl fighting for it to have possession? a tourist attraction?
if azor ahai needs his sword Lightbringer then y is there NO sword called lightbringer?????? this isnt a severe case of broken telephone with its original name being Grasschopper
azor ahai didnt forge a metal object to combat the enemy, he forged a son.
The Sun's Son
#277 Scorpion92
Posted Yesterday, 11:22 PM
As always,amazing ideas in these threads guys. Kudos! I have a small idea which I wanted to post a long time ago,but I didn't want to open a new thread on it. I really want the opinion of people in this thread (because you guys are awesome!). It kind of deals with impending Long Night,Jon,Bran,etc.
Lately, I have been thinking about Theon,Iron Islands,ironborn,petrified weirwoods(Nagga's bones) and Theon's connection to Bran.
I think Euron and Victarion and probably Asha (not sure) will all die in the next books. Euron might do something devastating,maybe even bring the Long Night by blowing the horn of winter before his death,given that he is going to attack Oldtown,and Sam and the horn are there. This is not the point I am bringing here.
I believe that Euron's demise will leave Aeron Damphair as the spiritual leader of Iron Islands and main priest of Drowned God and maybe even temporary King of the Salt and Rock, when Theon returns to overrule Kingsmoot. Theon will be doing Bran's bidding at this time, having finally realized he is of the Norh and the Old Gods,since he was raised by Eddard Stark. It will be his mission by Bran (through weirwood dreams) to help save ironborn from their Drowned God's way to Old Gods.
Bran will send the visions to Theon about coming Long Night, how Iron Isles will be literally drowned (the irony) by chunks of meteor hitting the ocean (Hammer of the Waters,thanks to LmL's awesome essays),how a lot of people will die, and Theon,as an agent of Old Gods,must return to his homeland and fulfill his mission.
Given Theon's current situation (he is about to be executed by Stannis,but honestly I think he will switch places with Arnolf Karstark like with Mance and Rattleshirt who looks just like Theon, and head to Dreadfort to help Stannis capture the seat of Boltons and lure Roose out of Winterfell), I think Theon is on redemption arc. And since there is nothing useful he can achieve in the North storywise because northerners hate his guts, the only way his arc can be truly redeeming is if he returns to the place his transformation started, the Iron Isles, and fulfills some mission on Starks' behalf to redeem himself.
His mission will be to save as much ironborn as he can and move them to the Nortn,with permission from new King Jon Stark and Old God Bran Stark during the Long Night. Ironborn will flee their homes due to devastation and abandon their destructive ways and assimilate on the mainland, probably to Cape Kraken,given its name.
The whole Aeron and Theon showdown will kind of mirror Moses and his liberation of Jews from Egypt and its pharaoh with his false Egyptian gods.
Given that Jon might become the new King of Winter and Bran will become an all powerful Old God, and since Theon grew up with both, it will kind of put Theon on honorable path of priest of Old Gods, the true religion of Westeros. He will also save many lives of surviving countrymen.
Did something along these lines occured to you guys? Because honestly,this is the only way I could see Theon's story going since both northerners and ironborn despise him, and he is the only link between the two.

#278 Lady Barbrey
Posted Yesterday, 11:31 PM
Scorpion92, on 29 Sept 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:
As always,amazing ideas in these threads guys. Kudos! I have a small idea which I wanted to post a long time ago,but I didn't want to open a new thread on it. I really want the opinion of people in this thread (because you guys are awesome!). It kind of deals with impending Long Night,Jon,Bran,etc.  Lately, I have been thinking about Theon,Iron Islands,ironborn,petrified weirwoods(Nagga's bones) and Theon's connection to Bran.  I think Euron and Victarion and probably Asha (not sure) will all die in the next books. Euron might do something devastating,maybe even bring the Long Night by blowing the horn of winter before his death,given that he is going to attack Oldtown,and Sam and the horn are there. This is not the point I am bringing here.  I believe that Euron's demise will leave Aeron Damphair as the spiritual leader of Iron Islands and main priest of Drowned God and maybe even temporary King of the Salt and Rock, when Theon returns to overrule Kingsmoot. Theon will be doing Bran's bidding at this time, having finally realized he is of the Norh and the Old Gods,since he was raised by Eddard Stark. It will be his mission by Bran (through weirwood dreams) to help save ironborn from their Drowned God's way to Old Gods.  Bran will send the visions to Theon about coming Long Night, how Iron Isles will be literally drowned (the irony) by chunks of meteor hitting the ocean (Hammer of the Waters,thanks to LmL's awesome essays),how a lot of people will die, and Theon,as an agent of Old Gods,must return to his homeland and fulfill his mission.  Given Theon's current situation (he is about to be executed by Stannis,but honestly I think he will switch places with Arnolf Karstark like with Mance and Rattleshirt who looks just like Theon, and head to Dreadfort to help Stannis capture the seat of Boltons and lure Roose out of Winterfell), I think Theon is on redemption arc. And since there is nothing useful he can achieve in the North storywise because northerners hate his guts, the only way his arc can be truly redeeming is if he returns to the place his transformation started, the Iron Isles, and fulfills some mission on Starks' behalf to redeem himself.  His mission will be to save as much ironborn as he can and move them to the Nortn,with permission from new King Jon Stark and Old God Bran Stark during the Long Night. Ironborn will flee their homes due to devastation and abandon their destructive ways and assimilate on the mainland, probably to Cape Kraken,given its name.  The whole Aeron and Theon showdown will kind of mirror Moses and his liberation of Jews from Egypt and its pharaoh with his false Egyptian gods.  Given that Jon might become the new King of Winter and Bran will become an all powerful Old God, and since Theon grew up with both, it will kind of put Theon on honorable path of priest of Old Gods, the true religion of Westeros. He will also save many lives of surviving countrymen.  Did something along these lines occured to you guys? Because honestly,this is the only way I could see Theon's story going since both northerners and ironborn despise him, and he is the only link between the two.
Yes - I do believe Martin has held out the possibility of a redemption arc to Theon, and I hope to see it. I have no idea how that might be accompllished, but because of his visions it has also occurred to me that Bran is going to influence things along those lines. Theon, I think, is crucial. Interesting that you think it will come to a showdown with Aeron and Theon though. I had thought it would be Euron and Theon.

#279 Lady Barbrey
Posted Yesterday, 11:36 PM
Nozlym, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:49 PM, said:
i dont know y u ppl r so hung up on Jon needing Dawn which will be the secret weapon that glows funny colours with a wave of the sword which can takes out scores of undead.
just no.
havent ppl realized that they are thinking with a mindset to literal to a few millennia old prophecy???
Lightbringer is not an actual sword but a person who i think u know who.
dont u think it funny that this great legend with this world renown sword would be on display or at least be known today where it is? with ppl fighting for it to have possession? a tourist attraction?
if azor ahai needs his sword Lightbringer then y is there NO sword called lightbringer?????? this isnt a severe case of broken telephone with its original name being Grasschopper
azor ahai didnt forge a metal object to combat the enemy, he forged a son.
The Sun's Son
"The Sun's Son"? Quentyn Martell?
I think you're taking our conversation too literally. I believe the Sword of the Morning and Dawn will have a huge role to play, but I don't know quite what it is yet. As for Lightbringer, I think that's Dany. But I also think the AA prophecy is false. Not everyone on this thread would agree with me. What we're doing is looking at possibilities. What you seem to want to do is shut them down.

#280 Sly Wren
Posted 29 minutes ago
Watcher_inthe_Woods, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:12 PM, said:
You all always give me so many interesting things to think about....just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed the thread Frequently I find myself including many of your thoughts and theories in the ASOIAF discussions my partner and I have.
Cheers!
You are too kind. Please--jump on in with your own ideas any time.
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:31 PM, said:
Just for the record, I am the one who has been saying that all undead beings are violating the natural order. And I further suspect all of them have some tie back to the moon meteors. I think they are the thing which introduced the possibility of necromantic magic to the earth. That's one of the things the idea of a broken seasonal cycle represents. The entire point of mythologies which center around the cycle of life and death, of the seasons, etc, is to understand death in context of life. To see that winter is needed for spring to come, to see that death is necessary to clear the way for the next generation. This is one of the major powerful and ubiquitous myths to found in the real world. So why does it say when winter just hangs around for too long? For years, it won't give way to spring? That's a violation of the natural order because it stops the cycle. The idea of the undead matches perfectly with the Long Night. And that's when the Others appeared, and also when the Bloodstone Emperor usurped and corrupted the magic of the Great Empire of the Dawn and practiced all the dark arts, including necromancy. They are all part of the same theme.
My apologies--did not mean to imply the first bolded was not the case. And fully agree on the rest of the bolded.
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:31 PM, said:
The Dawn Age heroes ended the Long Night, but did not restore balance to the seasons. Thus, the natural cycle is still disrupted and we also still see undead beings. The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai seems to be the one who brought down the moon, which was also a "stealing fire from the gods" moment, identifying AA with Lucifer and Prometheus. The motivation for this acts seems like it was probably the desire to obtain immortality, if we analyze the story thematically. It's a version of the Garden of Eden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which the snake said would make man like gods... which it did, because the knowledge of good and evil is free will, but that's a burden as well as a curse.
I like the Garden of Eden idea--the Great Empire of the Dawn always strikes me as a bit more Camelot-ish. But you're right--Eden, Cain and Abel, tree of knowledge--it's there. Even casting Adam and Even out of the Garden so they couldn't eat of the tree of eternal life--instead, in Martinlandia, people pursue a different kind of unnatural eternal life.
I like the idea that the lack of full restoration of balance allows for the undead. Would you then say that if the balance could be restored, the undead problem would cease? And can balance be restored with human will's being a factor?

281-290

#281 wolfmaid7
Posted 30 minutes ago
DarkSister1001, on 29 Sept 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:
Sorry for the delay, I must've missed this. I really like this idea. I got caught up in Bran's head and didn't look at the CoTF as anything but "good duys" (which is what I think GRRM intended). I always wondered about their offspring. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to this.
Yeah I think the idea of good or evil doesn't really represent the COTF to me.They may be a situation where it is an end justify the means type situation and i can't help but get that the COTF have fallen in the same kind of trap that the Aztecs did with Hernan Cotez.In that they defied an individual or in this case individuals based on what they were displaying.
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:
I know a lot of people don't trust the cotf and think Bloodraven is evil, but I do not. I think the difference between man and cotf is just what Lead says - they accept their dwindling, and do not fight it. Man WOULD fight it - but the cotf do not, because they are the fucking forest elves and forest elves don't do that. I think to reverse - project human motives on the cotf completely misses the point. They live longer, they are more in touch with nature and the idea of death as a part of the life cycle. The prohibition against calling back the dead fits in perfectly with heir acceptance of their own dead - it's all very consistent and I dont see a reason to suspect that's all a false front.  Now I do think it's possible we have some cotf who turned renegade or something - more likely I think it was human greenseers who went rogue, but let's say both are possible. I just don't think it's Bloodraven's group. I think they are what they appear to be, as odd as that may sound.  Just my two cents.
I don't get from Leaf's statement that they are accepting their fate, more of they recognize what their fate is.Not when Leaf says that BR lingers for them and the realms of men. I don't think they are lying down and take it. They have been gone from human memory for 8,000 so i don't think they've isolated themselves for that amount of time to the point that most people think their dead or never existed only to re-emerge to accept oblivion? Nahhh, i think there's a hint in her(Leaf's) statement of "in the world that men have created there is no place for them (direwolves and all the others) or us (COTF) that they are working on something that will benefit them in the end.If you as a species know that the issue is that the world you live in no longer facilitates those of your ilk.What do you do?
1.Smoke a cigar on the porch and watch the sun sets or
2. You change the world to accomadate you somehow
Here is where i diagree with you a bit more.I think that though the COTF accept that death is a part of the cycle that version includes an afterlife that is very active in nature.Hell they go into the crows and are very much involved in interacting with the living .So yes they do accept death but they do not accept permanancy as in dead as a doornail ,transion into another form existing as something else...Yeah.
I do agree with you that a human greenseer is involved moreso in how the children operate now and i as you know am a proponent of factions working together in order to reshape the world.
Sly Wren, on 29 Sept 2015 - 8:29 PM, said:
I like it! Yes--I admit I'm not sold on the various gemstones being clear markers of one thing. But the garnets--used other places, but both specifically mentioned in the adornment of swords--where Tywin says they "lack fire."
I'm not a huge fan of the "ice tempers fire" argument, but you have a point on the colors--mixing them up. Warmer and darker. Less intense. Does read like "tempered" fire.
Maybe--am also wondering if they were "everywhere" because they had been created and proliferated. Can't quite get around the fact that their eggs wouldn't hatch. For a WHILE. Sounds like dragons require something more than just natural reproduction. The blood sacrifice of Dany's pyre--that does seem to have been intense. But am wondering if it was what was needed for a reboot.
If so, what rebooted the Others?
Back to my own topic before I get too caught up in yours (you need to at least try to be less interesting)--am wondering if that has something to do with the magic swords. Whatever Dawn is, its purpose isn't really shown until the right magical moment. Otherwise, it's just a really cool sword. But, like dragon hatchings and Other raisings--at the right time, it's something even more amazing.
Or maybe I just want to see a glowy sword.
Yes--that thread is one of the best toys on the forums. Definite field day for the literarily inclined. CodeNym is brilliant.
Yeah i'm not much into the color or gemstone as codes its actually to confounding and creates a situation where there's no uniqueness as it can be superimposed to readily.
The dreagons i feel are creatures out of time that is being woken when they weren't suppose to be.Its an interesting question about Dawn i mean is it something more waiting to be quickened or is it just a shiny.
Sly Wren, on 29 Sept 2015 - 8:50 PM, said:
1. Agree that "evil" is too much for Bloodraven. But he is trying to plug a child into a tree. Into a tree. TREE! He may be a greenseer, but he's lost perspective in the intense ages of those trees.
2. Leaf says a lot of things--but if they are fine with dwindling, why did they call Bran? Why is he there? They've said nothing about helping humans or stopping the Long Night or anything. Voice is sure to have his radar tuned to this and will eventually show up and insist that I am too paranoid. I will say he's too trusting. And we will both agree to reserve judgment. Which is a good position. But I'd be a LOT happier if Leaf was saying anything about helping Bran and/or those he loves.
3. Renegade greenseers--now Wolfmaid will be showing up. But I think the human component has to be considered part of the potential problem with the Children--they say they are more powerful with a human greenseer. Given Bran's reaction to "flying," seems like both Children and human greenseer could get a bit lost in in all. Like we've been talking about in both threads--the danger of things getting out of balance.
1. I had not thought about being bound to stone--it seems like the Starks WANT to be back in Winterfell. Sansa in the Eyrie has that pre-dawn ( moment in a grey and black (dead) world--which tastes to her like dreams, innocence, and Winterfell.
But the idea that humans should not be bound to the trees as the greenseers are--that makes sense to me. Bloodraven doesn't not seem to be in a good way despite being alive. And I'm still trying to figure out what those singers in the roots are doing--are they feeding him? Off of him? Part of a collective?
2. But the bound soul in the religious sense (I actually am religious, so all good there)--for Martin, is that a negative if it's at their home? All the memories Bran's accessing--including (hopefully) info re: Jon--that's tied to human memory and spirit. Dust to dust--back to the earth. Not sure if that is the same as the unnaturally prolonged life. IE: when Varamyr ends up in his favorite wolf, as though it has claimed him--he seems free. So, being bound to what you love and know--is that "bound?"
The visions Dany has of the Undying, Jon's dream on the Wall--going back to the beginning. All of the myths and stories--including the World Book stories--it's all about connected history. That seems to be something Martin values, depending on how it's used. Nan's tales seem to have a lot more utility than, say, the prophecies from the Undying.
3. On the last bolded--if they help Jon get Dawn, I will eat every suspicion I've voiced. Am wondering if they can restore balance with a human greenseer, though, since a human greenseer is innately stronger, right?
Which of course brings me back to how on earth one sword could make a difference--even with a united Night's Watch. ETA: That really is not a problem I'm any closer to solving.
More or less i agree with everything said here. Cheers!
LmL, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:31 PM, said:
Just for the record, I am the one who has been saying that all undead beings are violating the natural order. And I further suspect all of them have some tie back to the moon meteors. I think they are the thing which introduced the possibility of necromantic magic to the earth. That's one of the things the idea of a broken seasonal cycle represents. The entire point of mythologies which center around the cycle of life and death, of the seasons, etc, is to understand death in context of life. To see that winter is needed for spring to come, to see that death is necessary to clear the way for the next generation. This is one of the major powerful and ubiquitous myths to found in the real world. So why does it say when winter just hangs around for too long? For years, it won't give way to spring? That's a violation of the natural order because it stops the cycle. The idea of the undead matches perfectly with the Long Night. And that's when the Others appeared, and also when the Bloodstone Emperor usurped and corrupted the magic of the Great Empire of the Dawn and practiced all the dark arts, including necromancy. They are all part of the same theme.  The Dawn Age heroes ended the Long Night, but did not restore balance to the seasons. Thus, the natural cycle is still disrupted and we also still see undead beings. The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai seems to be the one who brought down the moon, which was also a "stealing fire from the gods" moment, identifying AA with Lucifer and Prometheus. The motivation for this acts seems like it was probably the desire to obtain immortality, if we analyze the story thematically. It's a version of the Garden of Eden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which the snake said would make man like gods... which it did, because the knowledge of good and evil is free will, but that's a burden as well as a curse.
Your late on all undead things breaking the natural order But just to throw in a hypothetical and this has to do with my ends justify the means idea with the COTF.Looking at this more macroenvironmentally prior to humans coming into the land -which by itself was an upset in the equillibruim-Who were the COTFs natural enemy? The giants right who themselves were in balance with nature.Man has not yet achieved this and this also is a crucial part of the human experiance that not only deals with man in conflich with himself,but his environment and how that might resolve itself. Since men have come into Westeros they haven't gotten this pegged down.
And this part is where i disagree with you also,i don't think the seasons have ever been balanced i think part of this story is the process by which the seasons will finally get balanced but i don't think it ever was.These people are so out of touch with their environment and how things "should' work they are praying i mean these fools are praying for a Summer that will never end as if that wouldn't be as devastating as a winter that never ends.They have no concept of that,these fools have no idea that the seasons are broken because well how would they know?

#282 Sly Wren
Posted 12 minutes ago
LADY BARBREY: The quote function is a bit off--so this post might look weird.
Lady B: QUOTE: I honestly don't think she cares about him personally or those he loves. Why would she?
ME: I worry (arguably irrationally) because they've lured Bran all the way there saying they are going to teach him--but why? For him? I'm really doubting it--at least not entirely for him. Leaf only talks of the Children's dwindling--not why she's "helping" or what's going on in the cave. This makes me nervous.
Lady B: QUOTE: Not sure I buy the renegade greenseers as such, but wouldn't discount that theory either. I think it is likely more what you're saying here - humans might be more powerful but not be meant to be greenseers. That's why Frodo had to carry the ring! Humans couldn't be trusted with that kind of power; too easily corruptible.
ME: Not sure I buy it, either. But, as you say, humans are too corruptible. Which may lead to renegades.
Lady B: QUOTE: I did ruminate on all of this on the Melisandre Night's Queen thread in response to you - I don't want to repeat it here so take a look there to see if there is anything you can buy into.
ME: Will do.
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:33 PM, said:
It's a torch that will light up the sky to broad daylight and the Others will melt like Witchy Poo.
Excellent! And, of course, Freddy the Flute is the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers.
Nozlym, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:49 PM, said:
i dont know y u ppl r so hung up on Jon needing Dawn which will be the secret weapon that glows funny colours with a wave of the sword which can takes out scores of undead.

just no.
havent ppl realized that they are thinking with a mindset to literal to a few millennia old prophecy???
Completely agree with all of the above. It would be campy and fabulous if Jon just waved a sword ant the Others and poof! all done! But I would probably throw my book out of the window.
Really think the sword in Jon's hand is only one part of the puzzle. How all the rest will work--I can't answer that. Just this one part--Jon's (probably) getting Dawn. And it's important.
Nozlym, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:49 PM, said:
Lightbringer is not an actual sword but a person who i think u know who.
dont u think it funny that this great legend with this world renown sword would be on display or at least be known today where it is? with ppl fighting for it to have possession? a tourist attraction?
if azor ahai needs his sword Lightbringer then y is there NO sword called lightbringer?????? this isnt a severe case of broken telephone with its original name being Grasschopper
azor ahai didnt forge a metal object to combat the enemy, he forged a son.
The Sun's Son
1. Agree that Lightbringer could be a person. And the story of Lightbringer could be re: a child. No doubt. My argument re: Jon's getting Dawn is based on what Jon sees and does, not the prophecy. The prophecies, as you say, seem like dangerous things to build on. But following Jon's development--her really seems to be leading up to that sword.
2. As for knowing where the sword is--I doubt Dawn was AA's sword in myth or reality for many reasons. But Dawn is known. And wanted. But everyone--save maybe Darkstar--follows the Dayne tradition on the sword. Ned even returns it. There's a respect around that sword. Just because the story's been lost doesn't mean its purpose is non-existent.
#283 Sly Wren
Posted 4 minutes ago
Scorpion92, on 29 Sept 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:
Spoiler
As always,amazing ideas in these threads guys. Kudos! I have a small idea which I wanted to post a long time ago,but I didn't want to open a new thread on it. I really want the opinion of people in this thread (because you guys are awesome!). It kind of deals with impending Long Night,Jon,Bran,etc.
Lately, I have been thinking about Theon,Iron Islands,ironborn,petrified weirwoods(Nagga's bones) and Theon's connection to Bran.
I think Euron and Victarion and probably Asha (not sure) will all die in the next books. Euron might do something devastating,maybe even bring the Long Night by blowing the horn of winter before his death,given that he is going to attack Oldtown,and Sam and the horn are there. This is not the point I am bringing here.
I believe that Euron's demise will leave Aeron Damphair as the spiritual leader of Iron Islands and main priest of Drowned God and maybe even temporary King of the Salt and Rock, when Theon returns to overrule Kingsmoot. Theon will be doing Bran's bidding at this time, having finally realized he is of the Norh and the Old Gods,since he was raised by Eddard Stark. It will be his mission by Bran (through weirwood dreams) to help save ironborn from their Drowned God's way to Old Gods.
Bran will send the visions to Theon about coming Long Night, how Iron Isles will be literally drowned (the irony) by chunks of meteor hitting the ocean (Hammer of the Waters,thanks to LmL's awesome essays),how a lot of people will die, and Theon,as an agent of Old Gods,must return to his homeland and fulfill his mission.
Given Theon's current situation (he is about to be executed by Stannis,but honestly I think he will switch places with Arnolf Karstark like with Mance and Rattleshirt who looks just like Theon, and head to Dreadfort to help Stannis capture the seat of Boltons and lure Roose out of Winterfell), I think Theon is on redemption arc. And since there is nothing useful he can achieve in the North storywise because northerners hate his guts, the only way his arc can be truly redeeming is if he returns to the place his transformation started, the Iron Isles, and fulfills some mission on Starks' behalf to redeem himself.
His mission will be to save as much ironborn as he can and move them to the Nortn,with permission from new King Jon Stark and Old God Bran Stark during the Long Night. Ironborn will flee their homes due to devastation and abandon their destructive ways and assimilate on the mainland, probably to Cape Kraken,given its name.
The whole Aeron and Theon showdown will kind of mirror Moses and his liberation of Jews from Egypt and its pharaoh with his false Egyptian gods.
Given that Jon might become the new King of Winter and Bran will become an all powerful Old God, and since Theon grew up with both, it will kind of put Theon on honorable path of priest of Old Gods, the true religion of Westeros. He will also save many lives of surviving countrymen.
Did something along these lines occured to you guys? Because honestly,this is the only way I could see Theon's story going since both northerners and ironborn despise him, and he is the only link between the two.
I had not though of this--but I agree: Theon is the link between the two. But am thinking that there might have to be a bit of a cataclysm on the Iron Islands to make this work.
Earlier, we were playing around with the idea that Mel's vision of towers by the sea might be the 10 Towers. If something like that happened--could maybe see the Ironborn getting desperate enough to listen. And the parallels with "what is dead may never die" to the Others--Martin's got that just sitting there. Something should come of it.
One thing--I'm not sure there's a "true religion" vs. "wise, healthy, human action." If Bran is an "old god"--he's not really a god, just a person with a lot of information. So, almost seems more like brining Theon into the family vs. "conversion." Maybe.

#284 LmL
Posted Today, 02:11 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 9:43 PM, said:
Oh yes you were, LmL, my apologies. Interesting that first line of the poem perfectly expresses that, doesn't it. "Dark star crashes pouring its light into ashes." Meteor crashes, pours light into ashes, suggested to me reanimating the dead. "Reason tatters" - the natural order is broken. "The forces tear loose from its axis" - magic forces binding the earth to its natural order and revolution about its axis fly free.
Seems to me something needs to bind them back again. A "needle" might do the trick. A sword, which I said earlier in the thread, whose purpose is to unify, behind the wielder, but perhaps in a magical way as well.
Very nice post. I like what you've said about stealing fire from the Gods. I think the whole BSE/AE is a story about original sin in a way. For instance, an explanation of why kinslaying and kingslaying are such taboos to the First Men if they're refugees from a Bloodstone Empire that started with both.
I agree. And good points about kinslaying and needle both. I think someone has mentioned the idea of needle sewing things up before... somewhere... sometime.. not sure. Makes sense though. I like it. It might just mean that a sword can be a sewing needle, or it could mean Arya's specific sword. Or it could mean Arya will be a sword that is a needle. Or it could be all three!
The poem does seem to be talking about a zombie-phoenix or something like that. Pretty great stuff. We should re-read the one darkstar chapter and see if there are any direct references to the song lyrics... I bet there are.

#285 Lady Barbrey
Posted Today, 02:21 AM
Sly Wren, on 29 Sept 2015 - 8:50 PM, said:
1. Agree that "evil" is too much for Bloodraven. But he is trying to plug a child into a tree. Into a tree. TREE! He may be a greenseer, but he's lost perspective in the intense ages of those trees.
2. Leaf says a lot of things--but if they are fine with dwindling, why did they call Bran? Why is he there? They've said nothing about helping humans or stopping the Long Night or anything. Voice is sure to have his radar tuned to this and will eventually show up and insist that I am too paranoid. I will say he's too trusting. And we will both agree to reserve judgment. Which is a good position. But I'd be a LOT happier if Leaf was saying anything about helping Bran and/or those he loves.
3. Renegade greenseers--now Wolfmaid will be showing up. But I think the human component has to be considered part of the potential problem with the Children--they say they are more powerful with a human greenseer. Given Bran's reaction to "flying," seems like both Children and human greenseer could get a bit lost in in all. Like we've been talking about in both threads--the danger of things getting out of balance.
1. I had not thought about being bound to stone--it seems like the Starks WANT to be back in Winterfell. Sansa in the Eyrie has that pre-dawn moment in a grey and black (dead) world--which tastes to her like dreams, innocence, and Winterfell.
But the idea that humans should not be bound to the trees as the greenseers are--that makes sense to me. Bloodraven doesn't not seem to be in a good way despite being alive. And I'm still trying to figure out what those singers in the roots are doing--are they feeding him? Off of him? Part of a collective?
2. But the bound soul in the religious sense (I actually am religious, so all good there)--for Martin, is that a negative if it's at their home? All the memories Bran's accessing--including (hopefully) info re: Jon--that's tied to human memory and spirit. Dust to dust--back to the earth. Not sure if that is the same as the unnaturally prolonged life. IE: when Varamyr ends up in his favorite wolf, as though it has claimed him--he seems free. So, being bound to what you love and know--is that "bound?"
The visions Dany has of the Undying, Jon's dream on the Wall--going back to the beginning. All of the myths and stories--including the World Book stories--it's all about connected history. That seems to be something Martin values, depending on how it's used. Nan's tales seem to have a lot more utility than, say, the prophecies from the Undying.
3. On the last bolded--if they help Jon get Dawn, I will eat every suspicion I've voiced. Am wondering if they can restore balance with a human greenseer, though, since a human greenseer is innately stronger, right?
Which of course brings me back to how on earth one sword could make a difference--even with a united Night's Watch. ETA: That really is not a problem I'm any closer to solving.
That's the main question for me in regards to this question of whether it is a good thing or not: does Martin's world believe in a soul's continuance free of flesh/earth - i.e. as spirit in some kind of afterlife? I think of Beric here - he wanted to be free of his flesh, it was a prison for him. Religiously (and in many mythologies), flesh=earth. In this story as well, souls don't seem to leave their bones completely. The dragons and the Stark bones seem to have some sort of consciousness in them, creating a mood or emotion of animosity or acceptance as the case may be. That doesn't seem right to me - it's like skinchanging remnants that can't leave. Varamyr only has a semblance of freedom because he's in a wolf. Imagine being stuck in some bones in a crypt. The wolf is home to him and he prefers it to a real death, but he doesn't know what a real death is. His refusal to take that step, cheating death in a way - I doubt the Faceless Men would approve!

#286 LmL
Posted Today, 03:03 AM
wolfmaid7, on 29 Sept 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:
Yeah I think the idea of good or evil doesn't really represent the COTF to me.They may be a situation where it is an end justify the means type situation and i can't help but get that the COTF have fallen in the same kind of trap that the Aztecs did with Hernan Cotez.In that they defied an individual or in this case individuals based on what they were displaying.
I don't get from Leaf's statement that they are accepting their fate, more of they recognize what their fate is.Not when Leaf says that BR lingers for them and the realms of men. I don't think they are lying down and take it. They have been gone from human memory for 8,000 so i don't think they've isolated themselves for that amount of time to the point that most people think their dead or never existed only to re-emerge to accept oblivion? Nahhh, i think there's a hint in her(Leaf's) statement of "in the world that men have created there is no place for them (direwolves and all the others) or us (COTF) that they are working on something that will benefit them in the end.If you as a species know that the issue is that the world you live in no longer facilitates those of your ilk.What do you do?

1.Smoke a cigar on the porch and watch the sun sets or
2. You change the world to accomadate you somehow
I mean I think reasonable people can disagree, but I read the following and I'm not seeing you angle. And I don't think it's relevant what you or I would do in their situation - we are human - and the whole point of the cotf, those who sing the song of earth , is that they are not like humans. They think differently, they live ion a different scale. Anyway, the following seems really unambiguous to me:
And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. “Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.
“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”
She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill. (ADWD, Bran)
It's presented as a pretty clear dichotomy - men would do this, children do that. I'm not seeing any hint of a secret plan. Leaf is acknowledging that "the time will come" for them, the direwolves, all the magical creatures. This is their long dwindling - I don't see any signs of increased activity in the world. They've been slowly fading for a long time. I am not remembering anything that would indicate that Leaf's journey was anything unusual - I imagine they occasionally go out in to the world in disguise, because Leaf knew how to do it, you know? Some one showed her, I would imagine. Likewise, we don't know how long the tradition of having a human greenseer in the Bloodraven cave has been going on for - did Bloodraven replace someone? What about before him? We don't even know why the children need a human greenseer instead of a cotf greenseer. In any case, my point is that Leaf seems to be acknowledging that their sun is setting, their time has come, etc etc. I just don't see anything about revolution or drastically changing the world.

Now I could be wrong - there's a LOT we don't know about them, I'm just taking bout my basic gut reaction from the text. Perhaps there's a quote I'm not thinking of. I dunno... I just think the children are supposed to be like "elves" - they are close to nature, they don't think like men, etc. If they do act violently, it's going to be in defense of nature, which I imagine we agree on. That's a scenario I could certainly see. But I'd probably be in favor of whatever they were doing in that situation, because violation of nature offends me, you know? I'm a militant environmentalist, dammit. Anyway...
Quote
Here is where i diagree with you a bit more.I think that though the COTF accept that death is a part of the cycle that version includes an afterlife that is very active in nature.Hell they go into the crows and are very much involved in interacting with the living .So yes they do accept death but they do not accept permanancy as in dead as a doornail ,transion into another form existing as something else...Yeah.
I think we are on the same page here, actually. They have an afterlife, which seems a lot like a universal consciousness state. At most, it's a shadow on the soul of an animal a future skinchanger can sort of feel. That's fine by me - George can depict an afterlife however he wants, it's still a death state, a Bardo realm, etc.
But if a cotf greenseer helped create an Other, or tried to raise the dead, well now... that's a different story. That's a violation, or perhaps we should say "abomination."
Quote
I do agree with you that a human greenseer is involved moreso in how the children operate now and i as you know am a proponent of factions working together in order to reshape the world.
Yeah i'm not much into the color or gemstone as codes its actually to confounding and creates a situation where there's no uniqueness as it can be superimposed to readily.
The dreagons i feel are creatures out of time that is being woken when they weren't suppose to be.Its an interesting question about Dawn i mean is it something more waiting to be quickened or is it just a shiny.
More or less i agree with everything said here. Cheers!
Your late on all undead things breaking the natural order
Oh I don't imagine I was the first person to figure that out, it's a pretty big theme that a lot of people probably saw on the first read, whereas I took many re-reads to start thinking that way. I only meant I was just talking about that topic upthread. But it's an important topic, for sure. I thin kit's one of the few clear moral guidelines in the story - don't upset the balance. Between anything - ice and fire, light and dark, life and death, the cycles of the seasons... all of it. It's all about the "Lord of Harmony." In a world with lots of grey characters and difficult moral quandaries, it's important to see that there is a fundamental, universal value of right and wrong.
Quote
But just to throw in a hypothetical and this has to do with my ends justify the means idea with the COTF.Looking at this more macroenvironmentally prior to humans coming into the land -which by itself was an upset in the equillibruim-Who were the COTFs natural enemy? The giants right who themselves were in balance with nature.Man has not yet achieved this and this also is a crucial part of the human experiance that not only deals with man in conflich with himself,but his environment and how that might resolve itself. Since men have come into Westeros they haven't gotten this pegged down.
And this part is where i disagree with you also,i don't think the seasons have ever been balanced i think part of this story is the process by which the seasons will finally get balanced but i don't think it ever was.These people are so out of touch with their environment and how things "should' work they are praying i mean these fools are praying for a Summer that will never end as if that
wouldn't be as devastating as a winter that never ends.They have no concept of that,these fools have no idea that the seasons are broken because well how would they know?
Well, we definitely don't know i the seasons were eve balanced. There's a bit in the Worldbook which suggests some maesters think it was once regular - and obviously they are only speculating, but I thought it was iterating that the idea was inserted in there in the first place. The main reason I tend to think they were balanced is because of two reasons: one, the seasons are super funky, it's a central mystery, and if they were never balanced, there's kind of... no mystery, you know? The big fun answer would be "here's how the season got a f*cked up.." and we'd all be like "ahhh... cool..." which is really what fantasy is all about, the wow factor. Even with someone who writes like George does, this is still important, I think.
The second reason is that my whole astronomy scenario suggests that the seasons were regular. Even assuming I've got various specifics wrong, if there's any truth at all to the idea that a second moon-like object used to exist, and was struck by a comet in the dawn age resulting in greasy black stone meteors, and that this was the cause of the Long Night... I mean if any part of that is remotely close to the truth, we have smoking gun (smoking sword) evidence to suggest something drastic happened to alter the seasons. The more detailed layer of my theory, that the destroyed moon in the past was some kind of molten "fire moon" which had something to do with the nature of fire magic on planetos, and that the remaining moon is the "ice moon," similarly tied to ice magic on Planetos... it kind of suggests that the seasons themselves were kept in balance by these two magical ice and fire moons, and that whatever disaster befell the second moon at the time of the Long Night is what threw the seasons out of whack.
The way I see it is that fire magic was tied to the area which is now "the Shadow" by Asshai, and that it used to be more like a "heart of summer" to stand on the equator, whereas the "heart of winter" is at the north pole or whatever. When the fire moon was burned and exploded, that mirrored Dany's waking of dragons from stone in the pyre of her "solar king" Khal Drogo, her "sun and stars." Dany undergoes a fire transformation of some kind, where she "has the fire inside her" as Mel does when having an ecstatic fore transformation/ vision experience. This is what happened to the moon - it had the fire inside of, and it gave birth to black shadows. Just like the black shadow Mel birthed, just like Drogon the winged shadow (whose wings have a habit of "darkening the world," etc.). Just like burnt and corpse-stinking baby Rhaego. All the children of the sun and moon which represent Lightbringer represent shadow, darkness, corrupted fire magic, etc. That's the way I see it, anyway.
The idea of these almost black dragon-forged Valyrian steel swords is very similar - Ned's sword "drinks the light." The dragons meteors of the Qarthine legend "drank the sun's fire." You'll recall that the greasy black stone of Assshai also "drinks the light," and that entire area is in fact shadowed in general. I hope you catch my drift, agree or not - when the fire moon bit the dust, it had a corresponding effect on earth. Fire magic, either at Asshai / Shadowlands or just overall, everywhere, became "shadowed." Black fire, shadow fire, it's all the same idea. The black dragons breathe black fire, the dragon swords are black, sun-drinking swords, and so to, the black meters, which I think are the same thing as the greasy black stone. It's basically similar to a Lovecraft meteor - they drink light and color and leech the life from things. They are magical and toxic. Everything we know about places like Yeen, Isle of Toads, Asshai, etc, seems to point in this direction.
So, to finish the idea of what happened to the seasons and fire magic on earth, and why the Long Night fell.. those black moon meteors, having been burned black and transformed by the sun'd fiery comet sword of destruction, now fall down to earth and cause further mayhem. One falls on the arm of Dorne, looking like a sun-spear, and is remembered as the Hammer of the Waters. I think think the reason George named one of the Stepstones Islands "Bloodstone" was to leave a clue about this. If greenseers did cause the comet - moon collision (meaning of Azor Ahai is the the Bloodstone Emperor and a greenseer as I suggest), the "greenseers did drop the Hammer of the Waters." I like this because George seems to like to give each myth a part of the truth, but distorted in some way. So I think it fits.
There are only two thing which can cause a nuclear winter, besides actual nuclear weapons - a supermassive volcanic eruption, or a large comet impact. I think the Long Night was a magical version of a nuclear winter - which just means "so much debris is thrown in to the atmosphere that it blocks the sunlight for several years leading to grey and purple days and very poor farming." This would be similar tot he idea that the Doom was a magical version of a large volcanic eruption. Now imagine a few of these burnt and shadow-transformed chunks of fire moon crashing down on the planet. Not only do we get the normal result - floods (Durran Godsgrief), earthquakes (giants awoke in the earth), and nuclear-winter level atmospheric debris (don't forget the debris from the destroyed MOON )... but we also get the corruption of fire magic, right at the heart near Asshai, and we get the localized toxic, necromantic magic of these black stones. The Bloodstone Emperor worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky, and he definitely did him the necromancy.   I have a theory about a moon meter lodged somewhere in the ice having to do with the Others, but I have gone on long enough for now. That's my tale on the seasons... whew.

#287 Nozlym
Posted Today, 07:59 AM
Lady Barbrey, on 29 Sept 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:
"The Sun's Son"? Quentyn Martell?
I think you're taking our conversation too literally. I believe the Sword of the Morning and Dawn will have a huge role to play, but I don't know quite what it is yet. As for Lightbringer, I think that's Dany. But I also think the AA prophecy is false. Not everyone on this thread would agree with me. What we're doing is looking at possibilities. What you seem to want to do is shut them down.
Once there were 2 moons in the sky, but one moon got to close to the Sun and hatched dragons.
2 moons=2 wives    Elia and Lyanna   Sun=Rhaegar who impregnated Lyanna to give birth to Jon
Azor Ahai had to thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa= Rhaegar doing the deed with Lyanna
Lyanna died like Nissa Nissa giving light/life to Lightbringer/Jon
Sly Wren, on 30 Sept 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:
Really think the sword in Jon's hand is only one part of the puzzle. How all the rest will work--I can't answer that. Just this one part--Jon's (probably) getting Dawn. And it's important.
I believe that the AA hero from legend is who the Daynes associate from with having his weapon Dawn.
The Sword of the Morning title is in my mind another intrepretation of the R'hllor prophecy of Azor Ahai coming again

#288 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 02:12 PM
Nozlym, on 30 Sept 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:
Once there were 2 moons in the sky, but one moon got to close to the Sun and hatched dragons.
2 moons=2 wives    Elia and Lyanna   Sun=Rhaegar who impregnated Lyanna to give birth to Jon
Azor Ahai had to thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa= Rhaegar doing the deed with Lyanna
Lyanna died like Nissa Nissa giving light/life to Lightbringer/Jon
I believe that the AA hero from legend is who the Daynes associate from with having his weapon Dawn.
The Sword of the Morning title is in my mind another intrepretation of the R'hllor prophecy of Azor Ahai coming again
That's interesting. There's load of sword = wiener in the books. (Brandon & Lady B come to mind).

#289 LmL
Posted Today, 05:34 PM
DarkSister1001, on 30 Sept 2015 - 1:12 PM, said:
That's interesting. There's load of sword = wiener in the books. (Brandon & Lady B come to mind).
I've actually just done a re-write of my first essay, and the second half focuses heavily on the procreative side of the Lightbringer metaphor, in case anyone is interested. That's the first link in my signature. It's definitely a thing, and yes the Lady Barbrey quote about Brandon's bloody sword is the right tree to bark up.

#290 DarkSister1001
Posted Today, 05:44 PM
LmL, on 30 Sept 2015 - 4:34 PM, said:
I've actually just done a re-write of my first essay, and the second half focuses heavily on the procreative side of the Lightbringer metaphor, in case anyone is interested. That's the first link in my signature. It's definitely a thing, and yes the Lady Barbrey quote about Brandon's bloody sword is the right tree to bark up.
Right on. Is that the Mythical Astronomy of Ice & Fire? That symbolism called to mind the movie "Nell" with Jodi Foster & Liam Neeson. "Skewer in the belly."

Sign In

The Latest News

Notable Releases

From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Archived