From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[Sly Wren]

 

I was wondering when you were gonna post part 2. The discussion was so good on the last one, I figured you'd keep it rolling. I guess you'll have to repost when the update is through.

 

Thanks for the shoutout - I'm going to keep giving you a hard time though, in love of course. 

:) I'd expect nothing less. Besides, few things get my head working better on these forums that your critiques.

 

So, I'm just gonna leave these flies in the ointment right here, as I feel you're tossing out evidence which contradicts your conclusion that Dawn burns red. We already discussed this, so we don't to go round again, but it should be stated for the record.

[spoiler]The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets[/spoiler]

 

Here you've tossed out the green and gold as if they were not important to create this idea that Dawn turns things red. You're right to say it returns color - but it returns all the colors. No preference for red. Green and gold are the colors of summer, they are important too. Dawn is returning color to the world by ending winter, which will lead to summer. 

 

Although sunrise can OCCASSIONALY be described as red in the books, it is usually pale light, grey mists, pinks, or the entire spectrum.  Yes, there are a couple of Red Dawns, as Voice pointed out, but sunset is ALWAYS described as red, with the occasionally purple thrown in.

I completely agree--and I think it's actually something we are both doing. Focusing on one set of colors vs. other implications.

 

In this case, we're focusing mostly on the red and black in Jon's dream vs. the ice at the Wall and Jon's armor. Focusing on the color itself vs. the substance producing it. And the implications of that substance.

 

As you rightly quote, ice returns all colors to the world: IE in the "ice makes jewels of mushrooms!" moment outside of Craster's (can almost hear some starlet insisting that blue diamonds are out of fashion and she needs "mushroom diamonds!"--back on track now). In that moment, they key isn't the individual color, but the fact that the ice plus the light makes the color brilliant and shine in the sun.

 

On Dawn--you're right about the quote's not mentioning the sun. But it DOES mention the power of light on milk glass: 

 

"He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light."

 

Light plus milk glass makes the color alive and bright with light. As you pointed out on the last thread, Tyrion notes that Oathkeeper, while looking alive, drinks light in. It does not give it out and transform the color. What does do that? Ice and milkglass.

 

Martin makes this clear in the Game prologue: 

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took."

 

Here it's moonlight, not sunlight, playing off of the ice as it does outside of Craster's. But the effect is the same--ice picks up the light and shifts it around, sending it out again. Like the quotes you gave about the Wall turning black and red at sunset--ice picking up the light and lack of it--giving it back out. Ice and milk glass do that in the novels, not Valyrian steel.  

 

"The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight , translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor."

 

Just like Dawn, the icy sword is alive with light--but moonlight instead of sunlight. Like the Wall glows red in the sunset or white in the dawn when Jon sees it with the constellation, same with the icy sword glowing very faintly blue in the moonlight.

 

These light and color-shifting qualities are qualities of ice, not Valyrian steel. Qualities of looking alive with light. All of the quotes you gave above re: dragons and Valyria and black and red imagery--I agree: they tie together.

 

But when Jon is armored in "black ice" it's night--like the Wall looks black at night. And he is surrounded by fire--callling for more, his brethren are burning. So the light is fire--and Dawn, ice, and the Others' swords are all "alive" with the light they are in at the moment when seen. In this dream, the light is fire. Which would mean the sword burns red because the light around it burns red.

 

Unlike anything we've seen from a steel sword without a glamor or being set on fire.

 

Botton line: I should amend "Dawn burns red" to "Dawn comes alive in light"--and, in this case, the light is red. (going to start a new post to address your sacrifice arguments).

[Codename: Nymeria]

Great post as always, Sly Wren.

 

What strikes me as interesting is that we haven't actually seen Dawn in the story, other than in Ned's poppy-induced memory. I agree he almost certainly took it back with him to Starfall, but I don't think there's a clear account of what happened to it. Combine that with the many, many rumors about Ashara Dayne, and maybe there's something there. I also go back to the idea that Arthur Dayne didn't necessarily die at the ToJ, given the way the text doesn't directly address it. Just spitballing here, but maybe Ned and Arthur came up with a plan to make sure Jon was delivered the sword at some point in the future? My thinking would be that Ned had planned to do this sometime after Jon joined the NW, but got distracted by the whole Hand of the King/getting executed for treason thing. So maybe a Dayne (maybe even Ashara) will pop up at the Wall with Dawn? Again, there's some issue with the fact that Dawn seems to be pretty conspicuous, but the Daynes are a pretty powerful House by all accounts. Maybe their words are, "We travel quietly."  

[Sly Wren]

 

[spoiler]That night she lay upon her thin blanket on the hard ground, staring up at the great red comet. The comet was splendid and scary

all at once. “The Red Sword,” the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.

 

When at last she slept, she dreamed of home. The kingsroad wound its way past Winterfell on its way to the Wall, and Yoren had promised he’d leave her there with no one any wiser about who she’d been. She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon … but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.[/spoiler]

 

Here's the thing Sly Wren - I totally agree with your thematic analysis. Jon rejects blood sacrifice, instead becoming a sacrifice himself. Bu the only way a sword ever turns red is through blood sacrifice of others. The comet is compared directly to Ned's sword, covered in blood, and lest we think george is somehow referring to original Ice (Dawn), he notes the "Valyrian steel" aspect of it. That's burning red comet, which resembles a black sword covered in blood. Blood red = fire red. 

 

Lightbringer turns red in the Azor Ahai story when it is thrust into Nissa Nissa's heart. Beric's sword burns red (in the darkness of the cave) when he coats it with blood. Black Valyrian steel is made with blood sacrifice. Ned's black Ice becomes covered in blood, so he dips it in the black pond to clean it.  Blood, darkness, death, nightfall, and the comet. Glass candles also seem to require blood to activate. All Valyrian magic is rooted in blood and fire - and they make black swords through a magic process. 

1. Agree--Valyrian magic is rooted in blood magic. And Ice is now directly tied with that. With those aspects of the AA myth. It's even broken and developing with a developing knight. Which is one of the reasons I think it will keep going and kill a monster via Brienne or Jaime (as you know about my arguments).

 

If Jon is rejecting blood sacrifice and dark sorcery, he should NOT, under any circumstances, have a red sword. What happens in his dream when his sword is red? He acts out the actions of the Bloodstone Emperor, usurping and murdering his sibling, and of Azor Ahai, murdering his love with a black sword burning red. Red fire sword always equals death. Jon can't tell his friends from his enemies with that red sword. 

 

It's this pale WHITE sword which returns color to the world, and is associated with beginnings.  Again, it needs be said, the only occurrences of a red dawn are heavily death-aspected, not associated with hope. In the Arya scene above, after thinking about Ned's Valyrian steel sword covered in blood and the red comet, she thinks of Jon Snow. She despairs because she knows she cannot go to the Wall and say hi, though she wishes she could. 

 

So in other words, if that white sword does burn red, that means it's received blood sacrifice, and that probably won't be a good thing. 

I agree--if and only if the sword itself is innately red. But as you have established, Martin has already shown the Wall takes on colors depending on light. Same with ice in general. And, as I said above, seems to be the case with Dawn and certainly with the Others' swords.

 

So, if the sword in Jon's dream is in-and-of-itself blood red--time to get worried.

 

But it burns red--giving out light. Like ice does in the novels. NOT like Valyrian steel, which, like Oathkeeper, can be blood red, but drinks the light in, not burning it out. And the sword in the dream really seems to be giving off light.

 

As for the AA myth of murdering the brother and beloved--this is Jon's guilt, not his actuality. He did NOT kill Robb to get Robb's title, or for any other reason. And he did not personally kill Ygritte, certainly not in direct pursuit of a magical weapon. Context matters--this is guilt.

 

And the context of the shifts in the dream matter, too--Battle for the Wall turning into the Battle for the Dawn. Fighting Wildlings to fighting willing wights. Claiming "Lord of Winterfell" but actually King of Winter--put in context, Jon isn't AA. He's the last hero who is also Jon, with all of his attendant angst of both wanting to be recognized as a Stark and NOT wanting to take anything from his brothers. 

 

So, the sword in the dream is not like the Valyrian steel we know in the novels (so far). Not like the burning swords (no blood moment, not glamor). It is like glowing ice and milkglass.

 

One last thought - the NW vows say "I am the sword in the darkness." The Black Brother itself is a sword. In the darkness. And the black brothers are black. Jon IS his sword - and his sword is black steel Longclaw, which burns red. Jon himself is armored in black ice, just like his sword. The NW brothers are black shadows, an opposite to the Other's pale shadows and white shadows. If a NW brother is a sword, he's a black sword. 

I agree--they are a black sword. Like the Wall is a black shield--in the dark. But white in the day. And Jon thinks, right when he gets it, that Longclaw isn't what he wants. Jon's need for the father's true great sword--really think that's a key. Longclaw doesn't feel quite right to Jon. And it isn't really his by blood, even though he earned it.

 

Dawn--a true great sword, earned by merit, tied to blood, that seers his identity--that's what he wants.

[LmL]

I agree. Am thinking that focus could backfire. Like it might have for Rhaegar. And Like it clearly has for Jon--though he was helped by a completely lack of communicative skills.
 
Could see Dany's being full of good (if single-minded) intent--backed by dragons and Dothraki. And that combo gets misread and--problems.
 

1. I like this!! Agree re: the pale bladed burning swords. Given "Great Empire of the Dawn" and sword named Dawn wielded by VERY early First Men who do NOT look like Starks--this seems very likely.
 
2. I am not yet sold on LmL's long night theory. But the fact that AA made Dawn and brought it south--maybe. But the Long Night and all of the heroes--agree that it's one night with one story--but that doesn't preclude multiple heroes or stories getting mixed together.

The Northern Long Night story (per Nan) stresses there was NOT a singular hero. But a man who works with companions and the Children. AA story focuses on a single figure--sacrificing another, but still a single figure. Slaying a monster. Suggests that the stories have gotten mixed--likely with stories of other heroes. So, all remember a Long Night, but mix it with other hero legends.
 
But Nan's stories hold for the North. Really think that's the key--a man with companions/allies, not a single figure, asking for magical help. The oath said at the Black Gate--men working as a single entity as one sword and shield.
 
3. Bottom line--agree that AA is a pattern/archetype. To be an AA figure (slaying monsters) one does not need the original sword. THis is why I suspect that it is Brienne or Jaime. Heroes developing along with a broken sword.
 
But while the Last Hero story has similarities with AA, really think it's the pattern for the North. And that the sword that looks like the Wall is needed at the Wall.

This is wrong. The Last Hero's companions died. HE was the lone soldier story. The cotf helped him, but his companions were dead already.

Azor Ahai on the other hand "did not win his war alone." You've actually got it backwards here. The Last Hero was alone save for the cotf, and Azor Ahai was not.

King Stannis gazed off north again, his gold cloak streaming from his shoulders. It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your fathers honor, or your brothers skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone. I killed a thousand wildlings, took another thousand captive, and scattered the rest, but we both know they will return. Melisandre has seen that in her fires. This Tormund Thunderfist is likely re- forming them even now, and planning some new assault. And the more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us.

Jon had come to that same realization. As you say, Your Grace. He wondered where this king, was going.

If you're going to say that you don't need the original sword to play Azor Ahai, then why do you insist Jon does actually need Dawn? I tend to think its one way or the other. Either you need specifics swords AND the right wielder, or the wielder is the thing and the material of the sword is secondary.... But you can't have it both ways.

[Sly Wren]

im more inclined to believe that the last hero and azor ahai are not one and the same but actual 2 different figures that did great deeds during the long night.

 

for instance, the long night would never have ended if not from the help of the last hero. but his deeds go unknown and doesnt get any recognition. kinda like bran

 

while azor ahai is seen by many as he delivers the killing stroke to end the darkness and gets all the praise and glory. like what jon might get.

 

just my 2 cents

I completely agree--especially since Jon and Bran seem to be doing parts of the Last Hero story.

 

Some of the AA story doesn't seem to fit the Northern Long Night scenario in some ways--am thinking the stories got conflated a bit.

 

And can absolutely see no one but the Starks fully knowing what Bran did--which might mean he doesn't make it back--which makes me worry. . . 

[Sly Wren]

Great post as always, Sly Wren.

 

What strikes me as interesting is that we haven't actually seen Dawn in the story, other than in Ned's poppy-induced memory. I agree he almost certainly took it back with him to Starfall, but I don't think there's a clear account of what happened to it. Combine that with the many, many rumors about Ashara Dayne, and maybe there's something there. I also go back to the idea that Arthur Dayne didn't necessarily die at the ToJ, given the way the text doesn't directly address it. Just spitballing here, but maybe Ned and Arthur came up with a plan to make sure Jon was delivered the sword at some point in the future? My thinking would be that Ned had planned to do this sometime after Jon joined the NW, but got distracted by the whole Hand of the King/getting executed for treason thing. So maybe a Dayne (maybe even Ashara) will pop up at the Wall with Dawn? Again, there's some issue with the fact that Dawn seems to be pretty conspicuous, but the Daynes are a pretty powerful House by all accounts. Maybe their words are, "We travel quietly."

:cheers:

 

I've wondered about Ashara, too. Something's off re: her suicide. And I've wondered what Arthur might have told Ned to before he died, if it's tied to Ned's overwhelming respect for the man, as well as the Dayne's apparent respect for Ned.

 

So, the idea that Ned was somehow told about Dawn--I find that intriguing. Bran's dream of Ned in the crypts just says Ned told him something about Jon that was disturbing. I don't know how much a man like Ned, who insists the Others are gone, would listen to some story about Dawn, but it has to be considered. As well as what the Daynes are thinking about Jon. . . Might explain Edric's comments.

 

Popping up at the Wall with the sword would be less cliche than popping out of a pool of water--so I'm all for it.

 

And, since the Others move silently at night on the snow, the idea that the Daynes move silently by day--splendid parallelism.  :cool4: But agree--if they thought they had to get the sword to Jon, seems they could find a way.

[LmL]

1. Agree--Valyrian magic is rooted in blood magic. And Ice is now directly tied with that. With those aspects of the AA myth. It's even broken and developing with a developing knight. Which is one of the reasons I think it will keep going and kill a monster via Brienne or Jaime (as you know about my arguments).

 

I agree--if and only if the sword itself is innately red. But as you have established, Martin has already shown the Wall takes on colors depending on light. Same with ice in general. And, as I said above, seems to be the case with Dawn and certainly with the Others' swords.
 
So, if the sword in Jon's dream is in-and-of-itself blood red--time to get worried.  But it burns red--giving out light. Like ice does in the novels. NOT like Valyrian steel, which, like Oathkeeper, can be blood red, but drinks the light in, not burning it out. And the sword in the dream really seems to be giving off light.
 

 

no, there is nothing about it illuminating anything. It just "burns red." The Wall does not "burn red." There is also nothing to indicate Jon's sword is reflecting light - it burns red. 

 

You're creating a false law - that black steel cannot burn red. Yes, the steel drinks the light - which DOES transform the steel, it darkens the color - but that does not mean it cannot take fire. But it won't be a bright, friendly light.
 

As for the AA myth of murdering the brother and beloved--this is Jon's guilt, not his actuality. He did NOT kill Robb to get Robb's title, or for any other reason. And he did not personally kill Ygritte, certainly not in direct pursuit of a magical weapon. Context matters--this is guilt.

 

I don't like this analysis. We should look at the actions and the themes - they go together. He holds a red sword and murders his love - that's what Azor Ahai did exactly, murdered his love with a red sword. You cannot wave a wand and say he's actually the King of Winter, when he is CLEARLY doing what Azor Ahai did, with a burning red sword, like AA. The fact that he also acts out the Bloodstone Emperors actions, killing his sibling, usurping their throne, further confirms that Azor Ahai = Bloodstone Emperor, and that this man had the burning red sword. Even on a general level, when he wields this red sword, the whole thing is a nightmare. He kills everyone he loves and knows. You can't just say "well guilt" and therefore is is not the Azor Ahai archetype. We know two things about AA mainly - he has a burning red sword, and he murdered his love. There is literally no way George could more clearly indicate someone playing the Azor Ahai role than giving him a red fire sword. 
 

And the context of the shifts in the dream matter, too--Battle for the Wall turning into the Battle for the Dawn. Fighting Wildlings to fighting willing wights. Claiming "Lord of Winterfell" but actually King of Winter--put in context, Jon isn't AA. He's the last hero who is also Jon, with all of his attendant angst of both wanting to be recognized as a Stark and NOT wanting to take anything from his brothers. So, the sword in the dream is not like the Valyrian steel we know in the novels (so far). Not like the burning swords (no blood moment, not glamor). It is like glowing ice and milkglass.

 

It is a fact that in his dream, he wields Valyrian steel, and it burns red. That's right from the text. It is not like ice or milkglass. Milkglass is PALE, it does not burn red. Ever. 

 

I agree--they are a black sword. Like the Wall is a black shield--in the dark. But white in the day. And Jon thinks, right when he gets it, that Longclaw isn't what he wants. Jon's need for the father's true great sword--really think that's a key. Longclaw doesn't feel quite right to Jon. And it isn't really his by blood, even though he earned it.

 

His father's sword is black ice. Valyrian steel. And the NW do not turn white by day. They are always black. Yet they are a sword in the darkness. 

The Wall only turns black on moonless nights, because the Wall only reflects light, it does not glow. Dawn however glows - faintly, not brightly - with pale light. 
 

Dawn--a true great sword, earned by merit, tied to blood, that seers his identity--that's what he wants.

 

He wants his father's sword, which is black Ice. It's possible this is a hidden reference to Dawn because Dawn might be the original Ice, but you can't just assume that to be the case and leap over the fact that he thinks of his father's sword being V steel, just like Longclaw. Whenevr he thinks of Ice, he notes that it is V steel.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

 

 

If Jon is rejecting blood sacrifice and dark sorcery, he should NOT, under any circumstances, have a red sword. What happens in his dream when his sword is red? He acts out the actions of the Bloodstone Emperor, usurping and murdering his sibling, and of Azor Ahai, murdering his love with a black sword burning red. Red fire sword always equals death. Jon can't tell his friends from his enemies with that red sword. 

 

It's this pale WHITE sword which returns color to the world, and is associated with beginnings.  Again, it needs be said, the only occurrences of a red dawn are heavily death-aspected, not associated with hope. In the Arya scene above, after thinking about Ned's Valyrian steel sword covered in blood and the red comet, she thinks of Jon Snow. She despairs because she knows she cannot go to the Wall and say hi, though she wishes she could. 

 

So in other words, if that white sword does burn red, that means it's received blood sacrifice, and that probably won't be a good thing. 

 

 

LmL, I was thinking about Dawn the sword yesterday, and I swear came to this same conclusion independently.  Opened up this thread and here it was, with all the quotes and everything! And showing that Jon's dream was a re-enactment of the blood betrayal! I never saw that but I think you are exactly right.  And the above relates to Jon AND Dany.

 

Here's how I got to this reasoning.  I'm skipping out the AA myth because the thing confuses me, and I think it's twisted and false anyway, and for the moment all astronomy. I am just reconstructing out of my own head as a brief summary, taking in Dany's vision of the God-Emperors in her HotU, the Amethyst empress and the milky sword, Sly Wren's comments about blood sacrifice, etc.

 

First, something should be said about the milky swords in the HotU vision that I think has been missed.  There are not a whole lot of swords.  Dany is seeing the god-emperors all at once, but they are a sequence not a mass.  And each of them carry that same sword, so it is an inheritance passed down from one to the other. I believe Dawn, then, is not one of many, but unique, its purpose is to IDENTIFY the true God-Emperor, and it has a power we don't yet know about. (This is so Arthurian but then so are the Daynes in toto).  In a sense, the writers are giving us the Daynes and Dawn's back history, either as a mirror of Westeros or as a sequence.

 

So here's my little reconstruction of the Daynes and Dawn's back history in a way that makes sense to me, and how it relates to Jon and Dany.  The Amethyst Empress (purple-eyed) is murdered and usurped by her brother the Bloodstone Emperor.  But her children escape (and honestly, these secret children, switched children, hidden heirs have been such a trope in the books that I don't even consider this a jump) with the sword - that can identify their heritage if the time ever comes - and flee to the furthest continent, Westeros, to hide themselves from the Bloodstone Emperor.  (This  mirrors Dany and Viserys fleeing from Robert - it's all in where you stand! - so I am finally understanding that usurper imagery you and J. Stargaryan talked about, LmL).  

 

Where's the proof: we have a purple-eyed people with a greatsword Dawn living in Westeros today.  The Amethyst empress line did not die out.  Amethyst Empress, milky white sword, from the GEof DAWN.  This means that while they might have named Starfall after Dawn's original meteor origin in Asshai, there was no meteor in Dorne from which the sword was made.  

 

What's more, the advent of the purple-eyed to Westeros is followed by a mass exodus of First Men from Essos across the Arm of Dorne.  Why?  I would suggest they are fleeing slavery and worse in the Not-So-Great Empire of the Dawn after the BSE and his descendants take charge.  A Braavos-like retreat to a land that never has a history of slavery over thousands of years? Because that's what it seems like. Moses and the Red Sea.  Yandel says it made no sense the Children broke the Arm when Westeros was already filled with First Men. It does make sense if it was not the First Men they were protecting Westeros from, but from a greater threat - their pursuers.  This would be the CotF first alliance I think with the purple-eyed people and the First Men, or in fact the CotF weren't involved at all.  That sword did it!   Many of the foul descendents and minions, shadow-cursed, of the Bloodstone Emperor were swept away by the sea.  We have one clue to this: the one island near Essos, which would have been one of the first areas to cross of the former Arm of Dorne towards Westeros is called Bloodstone Island.  This is where the shadowspawn rearguard didn't get swept away and there are descendents likely living there now, in fact they likely spread to Valyria and Slaver's Bay.  The First Men/CotF pact we hear about follows hard upon this breaking, and maybe precedes it.

 

Doesn't this have echoes in Dany and Jon's stories?  Dany's first acts - instincts - are to free the slaves, at a time when we might all agree she should be concentrating on other issues.  Jon's are to save the wildlings from their pursuers, the Others, at a time when it would be wiser - for himself - to consolidate his command and not alienate his Brothers.  These two are enacting in their own way the Moses role of the purple-eyed people as leaders and saviours of the First Men, because they are the inheritors of that bloodline and tradition.

 

But there's a difference between them that is glaring that can be traced once again to the past.  I am not going to go into the Long Night here except to say defeating it was accomplished without dragons. So there is no reason to believe they need to be used during the next one.

 

The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has touched the "shadow" and Jon has not.  If, after the Long Night, a branch of the purple-eyed people went to Essos, and became the Valyrians, then the Church of the Starry Eyes or whoever's purpose was realized.  The Valyrians are corrupted versions of the purple-eyed people.  What's more, they were purposefully corrupted.  There might have been dragons in the Fourteen Flames, but the shadow binders from Asshai taught the Valyrians how to tame them with sorcery and blood magic.  So this is where I have a major problem with Quaithe, and think I might be in disagreement with you, LmL and Sly Wren and others.  Quaithe is a shadow binder who tells Dany she must touch the shadow to know the truth.  

 

But that is not what Dany's ancestors tell her.  In that vision in the House, what do these emperors lining the hall tell Dany to do? They tell her to run faster.  I had already explained in another post, that i had seen that darkness that was lurching behind her as her dragon self, something she must turn to embrace, something that Quaithe tells her she must embrace, something we think she must.  But that's not what the dawn emperors are telling her at all.  They are telling her to run away from it as fast as you can. And she tries. The problem is that she has already passed a line by the time she gets that vision in the HotU, she has committed blood sacrifice and fire magic in burning Mirri, and she has also participated indirectly in a blood betrayal of Viserys (she could have stopped Drogo).  So she comes to a dead end and must turn around and walk right into it, reversing the already-reversed chronological order of the images so that the first one is the last, and her fate.  The beautiful woman being fucked and chewed on by 'dwarves' is Westeros but it is also Dany, potential amethyst empress reborn, shadow cursed if she embraces her dragon self.

 

Doesn't this too make sense of the split red door imagery we were talking about in the last thread?  The red door offers her protection for her human self on the one hand, but transformation to her dragon self on the other, another kind of protection.  She has to choose and she chooses dragons.  I don't know if she can step back from that, or meld it somehow. 

 

Another question is: did she ever have a choice?  She comes from a line already corrupted.  But could she choose not to become so herself and thus become a possible saviour instead of possible destroyer?  Or was it inevitable even before she birthed her dragons and did not stop her brother from dying?  This is an essential question for me when considering Jon's heritage.  If he comes from Rhaegar's line instead of Arthur's, does he even have a choice?

 

I will say this: anything that comes from Asshai is poison to descendants of the purple-eyed people.  However well-intentioned, Melisandre from Asshai was poison to Stannis, and she will be poison to Jon if he allows her to influence him.  The shadow-binders who taught the Valyrians to tame dragons were poison to that people, making them conquerors and slavers of the worst kind, engaged in blood betrayal after betrayal slaughtering their cousins and brothers in the Dance with Dragons, in imitation of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Quaithe encouraging Dany to touch the shadow is offering poisonous advice.  And the main one is that the prophecy of Azor Ahai, that came from Asshai, is poison, a twisted version of the truth that will lead to destruction. That is the prophecy, targeted at the already corrupted line of the Targaryans, that Dany is fulfilling and it could lead to her own and the world's destruction.

 

The Citadel's Maesters are not wholly wrong.

 

So now I come to Jon, who I am more and more feeling might be Arthur's rather than Rhaegar's.  What do we know about the Daynes?  That they conquered their region but preferred to stay there, not challenging the Martells. They might have practiced incest because the purple eyes still seem a strong trait, but not found outside the house, and this practice might have been passed on to their cadet branch, the Valyrians.  The Daynes would not have been keeping the blood of the dragon 'pure'; they were keeping the blood of the Amethyst Empress pure, which must endow them with something.  They feel "hidden" in many ways.  The Swords of the Morning are chosen from among them (probably by the women, our Ladies of the Lake)  with Dawn going to the worthiest person and best warrior most likely, I would suggest, able to resist temptation and fight the "shadows" internally and externally.  They are an old line, 10,000 years, going back to the first of the First Men.  They carry the original Dawn, not the Valyrians (who do attempt to make copies in imitation of it but with much different materials), so their line is probably the most direct or concentrated from the Amethyst Empress.  The names of their keeps are steeped in Arthuriana, so this whole "true king" thing with the excalibur sword is a good mirror for the Amethyst empress myth.

 

Is this Jon's heritage?  I'd prefer him to be the true Great Emperor of the Dawn, wielder of Dawn, the Shadowchaser (Eldric) than a weak copy of Dany's Lightbringer, which is all being Rhaegar's kid is actually shaping up to be. 

 

And I can't help feeling that if the Valyrians and their dragons made flesh are an offshoot of the Daynes, then so are the Others.  What happens when you take the red, the fire, out of purple?  You're left with cold and blue.  

 

Wow I could just keep going, so I better stop.  This began as support for LmL that the sword should not burn red unless there's been a blood magic sacrifice, and then turned into a saga.  All the jumble in my head from yesterday poured out.  Where do you guys think I'm going wrong with this logic?

[Sly Wren]

[spoiler]This is wrong. The Last Hero's companions died. HE was the lone soldier story. The cotf helped him, but his companions were dead already.

Azor Ahai on the other hand "did not win his war alone." You've actually got it backwards here. The Last Hero was alone save for the cotf, and Azor Ahai was not.[/spoiler]

Yes and no--the Last Hero had companions. And when Nan stresses that the Last Hero did not do everything himself, she doesn't elaborate--seems like there is probably more to the story.

 

[spoiler]If you're going to say that you don't need the original sword to play Azor Ahai, then why do you insist Jon does actually need Dawn? I tend to think its one way or the other. Either you need specifics swords AND the right wielder, or the wielder is the thing and the material of the sword is secondary.... But you can't have it both ways.[/spoiler]

Not sure what you mean by "having it both ways"--and I think I may have gotten mixed up in our arguments. Apologies if that's the case. 

 

I do think some of Jon's story fits the AA myth. But Jon's journey fits Nan's tales better--Night's King elements and figures, Last Hero elements, wargs and beastlings--Jon fits the North.

 

So, not sure Jon is AA in the same way you seem sure (unless I've misread you). I really think the stories from multiple cultures got mixed a bit over the ages. But so far, Jon fits the North.

 

As for the actual sword: the AA myth is about the sword and wielder developing together--literally. The Last Hero and how he (and others?) brought back the day--we don't have details on how a sword did that. We do not have Jon developing physically or psychologically with a reworked sword--Jaime and Brienne are doing that.

 

So--why the original Dawn? Because he sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Because he sees how ice and dawn transform the world and thinks "there is magic beyond the Wall" after instinctively rejecting Craster and his sympathizers. Because in that dream, he goes from Battle for the Wall back to the beginning--Battle for the Dawn. And, to go back like that, seems like he'd need the original sword. 

 

[spoiler]no, there is nothing about it illuminating anything. It just "burns red." The Wall does not "burn red." There is also nothing to indicate Jon's sword is reflecting light - it burns red. 

 

You're creating a false law - that black steel cannot burn red. Yes, the steel drinks the light - which DOES transform the steel, it darkens the color - but that does not mean it cannot take fire. But it won't be a bright, friendly light.[/spoiler]

Not trying to create a false law--just describing what's in text so far. So far, VS transforms light by drinking it in and darkening it, not glowing "alive with light" the way Dawn and the Others' swords are described. Not the way the Wall shines on bright days. Or the ice shines at Craster's.  VS could still take flame--but so far we haven't seen it. We have seen Dawn described as "alive with light."

 

You're right--in the dream, it just says his "blade burned red in his fist." Which is why I brought up the only other actual burning blades in the texts so far--Stannis and Beric. But in the dream as given, we don't have any mention of magics or burning blood.

 

We do know there is fire. We do know it's otherwise dark. And Jon makes no mention of "blade burning red" until after the wights scuttle up the Wall. So, manyf options: could the blade be "alive with light" of burning flames and thus burning red? Sure. Could it be magically responding to the wights, since it is the blade from the Long Night? Sure. Could the dream simply have left out the "setting on fire with blood or magic" bit? Yup. Other options? Sure.

 

But the Sword of the Morning is what Jon saw specifically connected to the Wall. A specific office with a specific, completely unique sword. A sword described as "alive" in light (vs. drinking it in). Given all of that, Dawn has to be a strong contender. I think it's the most likely option, based on current evidence.

 

[spoiler]I don't like this analysis. We should look at the actions and the themes - they go together. He holds a red sword and murders his love - that's what Azor Ahai did exactly, murdered his love with a red sword. You cannot wave a wand and say he's actually the King of Winter, when he is CLEARLY doing what Azor Ahai did, with a burning red sword, like AA. The fact that he also acts out the Bloodstone Emperors actions, killing his sibling, usurping their throne, further confirms that Azor Ahai = Bloodstone Emperor, and that this man had the burning red sword. Even on a general level, when he wields this red sword, the whole thing is a nightmare. He kills everyone he loves and knows. You can't just say "well guilt" and therefore is is not the Azor Ahai archetype. We know two things about AA mainly - he has a burning red sword, and he murdered his love. There is literally no way George could more clearly indicate someone playing the Azor Ahai role than giving him a red fire sword.[/spoiler] 

And if Jon had actually murdered Robb and taken his crown, I'd be right there with you.

 

But Jon really did NOT do anything remotely close to that. So, if ONLY he dreams he killed Robb, how can it be affirmation that he represents someone who did actually do that? He feels guilty over Robb--but not because he's actually guilty. Jon did NOT kill Robb in any way shape or form.

 

So, killing him in the dream must mean something else.

 

Same with Ygritte--she was killed in armed combat as an armed combatant. NOT like the Nissa Nissa myth. Jon did not kill her himself. And he did not sacrifice her to temper a sword--even if assume Wall =sword. Killing wildlings does not help the Watch long term with the Long Night coming. They need all the fighters they can get--killing Wildlings is a waste, not a strengthening.

 

[spoiler]It is a fact that in his dream, he wields Valyrian steel, and it burns red. That's right from the text. It is not like ice or milkglass. Milkglass is PALE, it does not burn red. Ever. 

 

His father's sword is black ice. Valyrian steel. And the NW do not turn white by day. They are always black. Yet they are a sword in the darkness. 

The Wall only turns black on moonless nights, because the Wall only reflects light, it does not glow. Dawn however glows - faintly, not brightly - with pale light.[/spoiler] 

Yes--in the dream he calls it Longclaw. But if it is actually Longclaw (vs. his mind doing what Mel does reading visions--associating things), in the dream it is doing something VS has yet to do anywhere in text. So far. VS figuratively does the opposite and drinks light in.

 

Yes--Ned's sword is Ice. But Ned is a stand in for the father. And Ice is a stand in for the original sword. Jon wants both--validation from his father and the "true great sword."

 

On the Wall and ice in general--it does not produce light on its own. But Jon's descriptions make it clear that the shining is transformative.

 

And, as you said, Dawn does glow. So do the Others' swords. We only have a description of Dawn by sunlight--white. By moonlight, the Others' swords glow bluish. We've no description of wither by firelight. But it the Wall reflects red light, can't see why those substances can't do the same. And appear alive with that light as they do by natural light.

 

[spoiler]He wants his father's sword, which is black Ice. It's possible this is a hidden reference to Dawn because Dawn might be the original Ice, but you can't just assume that to be the case and leap over the fact that he thinks of his father's sword being V steel, just like Longclaw. Whenevr he thinks of Ice, he notes that it is V steel.[spoiler]

Yes--but the key point of the sword isn't the steel--though that is cool. It's the validation and identity. And, as I said: true father, true greatsword--we've known Jon wants this truth and validation from Game. We know Ned represents the true father. We know Ice represents an original sword. We know Jon sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. It doesn't mean nothing. It's not a hidden reference. It's just a reference.

[Lady Barbrey]

Yes and no--the Last Hero had companions. And when Nan stresses that the Last Hero did not do everything himself, she doesn't elaborate--seems like there is probably more to the story.

 

Not sure what you mean by "having it both ways"--and I think I may have gotten mixed up in our arguments. Apologies if that's the case. 

 

I do think some of Jon's story fits the AA myth. But Jon's journey fits Nan's tales better--Night's King elements and figures, Last Hero elements, wargs and beastlings--Jon fits the North.

 

So, not sure Jon is AA in the same way you seem sure (unless I've misread you). I really think the stories from multiple cultures got mixed a bit over the ages. But so far, Jon fits the North.

 

As for the actual sword: the AA myth is about the sword and wielder developing together--literally. The Last Hero and how he (and others?) brought back the day--we don't have details on how a sword did that. We do not have Jon developing physically or psychologically with a reworked sword--Jaime and Brienne are doing that.

 

So--why the original Dawn? Because he sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Because he sees how ice and dawn transform the world and thinks "there is magic beyond the Wall" after instinctively rejecting Craster and his sympathizers. Because in that dream, he goes from Battle for the Wall back to the beginning--Battle for the Dawn. And, to go back like that, seems like he'd need the original sword. 

 

Not trying to create a false law--just describing what's in text so far. So far, VS transforms light by drinking it in and darkening it, not glowing "alive with light" the way Dawn and the Others' swords are described. Not the way the Wall shines on bright days. Or the ice shines at Craster's.  VS could still take flame--but so far we haven't seen it. We have seen Dawn described as "alive with light."

 

You're right--in the dream, it just says his "blade burned red in his fist." Which is why I brought up the only other actual burning blades in the texts so far--Stannis and Beric. But in the dream as given, we don't have any mention of magics or burning blood.

 

We do know there is fire. We do know it's otherwise dark. And Jon makes no mention of "blade burning red" until after the wights scuttle up the Wall. So, manyf options: could the blade be "alive with light" of burning flames and thus burning red? Sure. Could it be magically responding to the wights, since it is the blade from the Long Night? Sure. Could the dream simply have left out the "setting on fire with blood or magic" bit? Yup. Other options? Sure.

 

But the Sword of the Morning is what Jon saw specifically connected to the Wall. A specific office with a specific, completely unique sword. A sword described as "alive" in light (vs. drinking it in). Given all of that, Dawn has to be a strong contender. I think it's the most likely option, based on current evidence.

 

And if Jon had actually murdered Robb and taken his crown, I'd be right there with you.

 

But Jon really did NOT do anything remotely close to that. So, if ONLY he dreams he killed Robb, how can it be affirmation that he represents someone who did actually do that? He feels guilty over Robb--but not because he's actually guilty. Jon did NOT kill Robb in any way shape or form.

 

So, killing him in the dream must mean something else.

 

Same with Ygritte--she was killed in armed combat as an armed combatant. NOT like the Nissa Nissa myth. Jon did not kill her himself. And he did not sacrifice her to temper a sword--even if assume Wall =sword. Killing wildlings does not help the Watch long term with the Long Night coming. They need all the fighters they can get--killing Wildlings is a waste, not a strengthening.

 

Yes--in the dream he calls it Longclaw. But if it is actually Longclaw (vs. his mind doing what Mel does reading visions--associating things), in the dream it is doing something VS has yet to do anywhere in text. So far. VS figuratively does the opposite and drinks light in.

 

Yes--Ned's sword is Ice. But Ned is a stand in for the father. And Ice is a stand in for the original sword. Jon wants both--validation from his father and the "true great sword."

 

On the Wall and ice in general--it does not produce light on its own. But Jon's descriptions make it clear that the shining is transformative.

 

And, as you said, Dawn does glow. So do the Others' swords. We only have a description of Dawn by sunlight--white. By moonlight, the Others' swords glow bluish. We've no description of wither by firelight. But it the Wall reflects red light, can't see why those substances can't do the same. And appear alive with that light as they do by natural light.

 

Yes--but the key point of the sword isn't the steel--though that is cool. It's the validation and identity. And, as I said: true father, true greatsword--we've known Jon wants this truth and validation from Game. We know Ned represents the true father. We know Ice represents an original sword. We know Jon sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. It doesn't mean nothing. It's not a hidden reference. It's just a reference.

It's rather odd agreeing with both of you when you're in disagreement!  And my view is different too.  Jon has visions.  He's been having them since his first POV but they are just little glimpses that seem kind of natural.  That dream of the blood betrayal, the wife betrayal, the sword burning red - it's a metaphor for what has happened in the past, a pattern that keeps repeating, that he has been chosen to break.  It's a scary dream, and shows him what's a stake if he fails.  Not that he'll do those things, but that those things will keep being done if he can't break the cycle.  A myth that's personalized to show full impact.  Dany is doing them, in a slightly skewed way, she is Azor Ahai, but Azor Ahai is false.  Her Azor Ahai sword is the dragons.  But the dragons cannot bring back the day in a Long Night.  Only the Sword of the Morning can do that ... somehow! With a little help from his friends.

 

I do see Jon enacting the AA myth here and then absolutely and totally rejecting it even as it happens.

[Lady Barbrey]

im more inclined to believe that the last hero and azor ahai are not one and the same but actual 2 different figures that did great deeds during the long night.

 

for instance, the long night would never have ended if not from the help of the last hero. but his deeds go unknown and doesnt get any recognition. kinda like bran

 

while azor ahai is seen by many as he delivers the killing stroke to end the darkness and gets all the praise and glory. like what jon might get.

 

just my 2 cents

I buy it.  I do think AA was likely seen as a folk hero of the Long Night in Essos, but I think the current prophecy attached to him is twisted to signify Targaryans saving the world when they will likely bring about its destruction.

[Sly Wren]

[spoiler]LmL, I was thinking about Dawn the sword yesterday, and I swear came to this same conclusion independently.  Opened up this thread and here it was, with all the quotes and everything! And showing that Jon's dream was a re-enactment of the blood betrayal! I never saw that but I think you are exactly right.  And the above relates to Jon AND Dany.

 

Here's how I got to this reasoning.  I'm skipping out the AA myth because the thing confuses me, and I think it's twisted and false anyway, and for the moment all astronomy. I am just reconstructing out of my own head as a brief summary, taking in Dany's vision of the God-Emperors in her HotU, the Amethyst empress and the milky sword, Sly Wren's comments about blood sacrifice, etc.

 

First, something should be said about the milky swords in the HotU vision that I think has been missed.  There are not a whole lot of swords.  Dany is seeing the god-emperors all at once, but they are a sequence not a mass.  And each of them carry that same sword, so it is an inheritance passed down from one to the other. I believe Dawn, then, is not one of many, but unique, its purpose is to IDENTIFY the true God-Emperor, and it has a power we don't yet know about. (This is so Arthurian but then so are the Daynes in toto).  In a sense, the writers are giving us the Daynes and Dawn's back history, either as a mirror of Westeros or as a sequence.[/spoiler]

First off, this is AMAZING!!! I'm still processing it to fine tune my response, but my instinctive response is WOW!!! This is amazing. :bowdown:  :bowdown:  :bowdown: (Worshippers should come in groups--but am not trying to imply you are starting a cult. :cool4: )

 

Okay--on to hopefully substantive comments on the above: 

 

Agree on AA myth and potential problems. And excellent catch on the sequential nature of the god-emperors holding the sword. I had assumed more than one sword, but I think you are right. The idea that the sword came from the empire and god-emperor is one I had been intending to try to prove when I got time--I think you handily beat me to it in one go.

 

As for the "true god-emperor"--seems like that will have more context. The role of the Daynes seems more to protect than rule. So, whatever the sword denotes, seems like it may be more along those lines--or has turned into those lines. 

 

[spoiler]So here's my little reconstruction of the Daynes and Dawn's back history in a way that makes sense to me, and how it relates to Jon and Dany.  The Amethyst Empress (purple-eyed) is murdered and usurped by her brother the Bloodstone Emperor.  But her children escape (and honestly, these secret children, switched children, hidden heirs have been such a trope in the books that I don't even consider this a jump) with the sword - that can identify their heritage if the time ever comes - and flee to the furthest continent, Westeros, to hide themselves from the Bloodstone Emperor.  (This  mirrors Dany and Viserys fleeing from Robert - it's all in where you stand! - so I am finally understanding that usurper imagery you and J. Stargaryan talked about, LmL).  

 

Where's the proof: we have a purple-eyed people with a greatsword Dawn living in Westeros today.  The Amethyst empress line did not die out.  Amethyst Empress, milky white sword, from the GEof DAWN.  This means that while they might have named Starfall after Dawn's original meteor origin in Asshai, there was no meteor in Dorne from which the sword was made.  

 

What's more, the advent of the purple-eyed to Westeros is followed by a mass exodus of First Men from Essos across the Arm of Dorne.  Why?  I would suggest they are fleeing slavery and worse in the Not-So-Great Empire of the Dawn after the BSE and his descendants take charge.  A Braavos-like retreat to a land that never has a history of slavery over thousands of years? Because that's what it seems like. Moses and the Red Sea.  Yandel says it made no sense the Children broke the Arm when Westeros was already filled with First Men. It does make sense if it was not the First Men they were protecting Westeros from, but from a greater threat - their pursuers.  This would be the CotF first alliance I think with the purple-eyed people and the First Men, or in fact the CotF weren't involved at all.  That sword did it!   Many of the foul descendents and minions, shadow-cursed, of the Bloodstone Emperor were swept away by the sea.  We have one clue to this: the one island near Essos, which would have been one of the first areas to cross of the former Arm of Dorne towards Westeros is called Bloodstone Island.  This is where the shadowspawn rearguard didn't get swept away and there are descendents likely living there now, in fact they likely spread to Valyria and Slaver's Bay.  The First Men/CotF pact we hear about follows hard upon this breaking, and maybe precedes it.[/spoiler]

Completely agree on the fleeing of the fall of the empire or change of power. Am not sure about keeping the sword for identification--could it not be more about keeping the power in safe hands? Like keeping it away from the Wall? Seems like using the sword to reclaim power would be problematic--whoever can claim power gets it. Magic sword or not.

 

On the breaking of the Arm--I like the idea of the sword's being involved--I am working with my highly speculative theory on ice/milkglass being transformative in light. So, some sort of power there. But still thinks it works for Children to have done it or been involved--I'm pretty sold on the Children (or a faction of them) somehow being tied to the Long Night. So, could also see some as allied to the Daynes--opposing factions? Or are you assuming the Last Hero either was or found one of the Daynes sword-wielders?

 

Amen on the name of Starfall--the idea that the star fell there always seemed odd to me. Seemed more like the name came with the sword, not the star.

 

[spoiler]But there's a difference between them that is glaring that can be traced once again to the past.  I am not going to go into the Long Night here except to say defeating it was accomplished without dragons. So there is no reason to believe they need to be used during the next one.

 

The difference between Jon and Dany is that Dany has touched the "shadow" and Jon has not.  If, after the Long Night, a branch of the purple-eyed people went to Essos, and became the Valyrians, then the Church of the Starry Eyes or whoever's purpose was realized.  The Valyrians are corrupted versions of the purple-eyed people.  What's more, they were purposefully corrupted.  There might have been dragons in the Fourteen Flames, but the shadow binders from Asshai taught the Valyrians how to tame them with sorcery and blood magic.  So this is where I have a major problem with Quaithe, and think I might be in disagreement with you, LmL and Sly Wren and others.  Quaithe is a shadow binder who tells Dany she must touch the shadow to know the truth.  

 

But that is not what Dany's ancestors tell her.  In that vision in the House, what do these emperors lining the hall tell Dany to do? They tell her to run faster.  I had already explained in another post, that i had seen that darkness that was lurching behind her as her dragon self, something she must turn to embrace, something that Quaithe tells her she must embrace, something we think she must.  But that's not what the dawn emperors are telling her at all.  They are telling her to run away from it as fast as you can. And she tries. The problem is that she has already passed a line by the time she gets that vision in the HotU, she has committed blood sacrifice and fire magic in burning Mirri, and she has also participated indirectly in a blood betrayal of Viserys (she could have stopped Drogo).  So she comes to a dead end and must turn around and walk right into it, reversing the already-reversed chronological order of the images so that the first one is the last, and her fate.  The beautiful woman being fucked and chewed on by 'dwarves' is Westeros but it is also Dany, potential amethyst empress reborn, shadow cursed if she embraces her dragon self.[/spoiler]

YES!!! I'm sold--not sure about "intentionally corrupted"--seems like they could have been willing participants. But the rest--yes!!

 

Dany does need to look back and understand, but NOT touch the shadow--you've solved the problem in my head--Quaithe always struck me as creepy and shadowbinders don't seem like wise counsellors. But I think you've got it--the shadow, the blood sacrifice is the problem.

 

Those who willingly sacrifice for others--those sacrifices so far seem noble and acceptable in Martin's world. Blood ritual and sacrifice--NOT good. Jon instinctively shrinks from it. Even when he's attracted to Val and even Mel. The magic beyond the Wall is not that Craster (and his blood sacrifice) are safe--it's the ice and light. Jon refuses blood sacrifice.

 

Your reading of Dany in the House--that's perfect.

 

[spoiler]Doesn't this too make sense of the split red door imagery we were talking about in the last thread?  The red door offers her protection for her human self on the one hand, but transformation to her dragon self on the other, another kind of protection.  She has to choose and she chooses dragons.  I don't know if she can step back from that, or meld it somehow. 

 

Another question is: did she ever have a choice?  She comes from a line already corrupted.  But could she choose not to become so herself and thus become a possible saviour instead of possible destroyer?  Or was it inevitable even before she birthed her dragons and did not stop her brother from dying?  This is an essential question for me when considering Jon's heritage.  If he comes from Rhaegar's line instead of Arthur's, does he even have a choice?

 

I will say this: anything that comes from Asshai is poison to descendants of the purple-eyed people.  However well-intentioned, Melisandre from Asshai was poison to Stannis, and she will be poison to Jon if he allows her to influence him.  The shadow-binders who taught the Valyrians to tame dragons were poison to that people, making them conquerors and slavers of the worst kind, engaged in blood betrayal after betrayal slaughtering their cousins and brothers in the Dance with Dragons, in imitation of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Quaithe encouraging Dany to touch the shadow is offering poisonous advice.  And the main one is that the prophecy of Azor Ahai, that came from Asshai, is poison, a twisted version of the truth that will lead to destruction. That is the prophecy, targeted at the already corrupted line of the Targaryans, that Dany is fulfilling and it could lead to her own and the world's destruction.[/spoiler]

Agree on the red door--she has to choose her "home"--protection or transformation. But I do think she has a choice. She got dealt a terrible hand. But, unlike Viserys, she is not innately cruel. She does not have enough info about her past (vs. the Starks) and she makes her choice about the dragons in a terrible situation--but she seems to have a choice. In the first ritual, she says "the price was too high." She seems to know. But does the second ritual any way--for multiple reasons. She's almost drunk on fire once she gets going--but I do think she chose--a highly influenced choice, but chose. In Martin's world, even the cursed can choose.

 

On Jon--he seems instinctively repulsed by Mel's sacrifice. Keeps him safe. That is tied to his Starkness. But may also be blood.

 

[spoiler]So now I come to Jon, who I am more and more feeling might be Arthur's rather than Rhaegar's.  What do we know about the Daynes?  That they conquered their region but preferred to stay there, not challenging the Martells. They might have practiced incest because the purple eyes still seem a strong trait, but not found outside the house, and this practice might have been passed on to their cadet branch, the Valyrians.  The Daynes would not have been keeping the blood of the dragon 'pure'; they were keeping the blood of the Amethyst Empress pure, which must endow them with something.  They feel "hidden" in many ways.  The Swords of the Morning are chosen from among them (probably by the women, our Ladies of the Lake)  with Dawn going to the worthiest person and best warrior most likely, I would suggest, able to resist temptation and fight the "shadows" internally and externally.  They are an old line, 10,000 years, going back to the first of the First Men.  They carry the original Dawn, not the Valyrians (who do attempt to make copies in imitation of it but with much different materials), so their line is probably the most direct or concentrated from the Amethyst Empress.  The names of their keeps are steeped in Arthuriana, so this whole "true king" thing with the excalibur sword is a good mirror for the Amethyst empress myth.

 

Is this Jon's heritage?  I'd prefer him to be the true Great Emperor of the Dawn, wielder of Dawn, the Shadowchaser (Eldric) than a weak copy of Dany's Lightbringer, which is all being Rhaegar's kid is actually shaping up to be. 

 

And I can't help feeling that if the Valyrians and their dragons made flesh are an offshoot of the Daynes, then so are the Others.  What happens when you take the red, the fire, out of purple?  You're left with cold and blue.  

 

Wow I could just keep going, so I better stop.  This began as support for LmL that the sword should not burn red unless there's been a blood magic sacrifice, and then turned into a saga.  All the jumble in my head from yesterday poured out.  Where do you guys think I'm going wrong with this logic?[/spoiler]

Completely agree on the Daynes--they seem to be kept hidden. But again, not as rulers but like guardians. The Yronwoods "We Guard the Way"--the way to Starfall? The Hightowers--these Stony Dornish seem like protectors. Same with the Daynes and their sword. Arthur says to Jaime about his devotion in the sept--"blood is the seal of our devotion"--as though self-sacrifice is not just a value of KG for Arthur. But a value per se--as Sword of the Morning. Guardians--can't see an empire restoration in this novel. But guardians--that I can see. With all of the attendant "Arthur returns" references.

 

Am liking the Others and the Dragons possibilities--I'd paralleled the dragons with the direwolves. But I see your point. And the Others seem even more intense in many ways. I need to give this a think.

 

Once again--this is AMAZING!!! I am making a file of the thread in case the upgrade takes hold the next time and all is lost. But please, do us all a favor, and save these ideas. Ready them for your own thread on this--because you've just jumped about 20 miles ahead of where I was--this is fabulous.

[Sly Wren]

It's rather odd agreeing with both of you when you're in disagreement!  And my view is different too.  Jon has visions.  He's been having them since his first POV but they are just little glimpses that seem kind of natural.  That dream of the blood betrayal, the wife betrayal, the sword burning red - it's a metaphor for what has happened in the past, a pattern that keeps repeating, that he has been chosen to break.  It's a scary dream, and shows him what's a stake if he fails.  Not that he'll do those things, but that those things will keep being done if he can't break the cycle.  A myth that's personalized to show full impact.  Dany is doing them, in a slightly skewed way, she is Azor Ahai, but Azor Ahai is false.  Her Azor Ahai sword is the dragons.  But the dragons cannot bring back the day in a Long Night.  Only the Sword of the Morning can do that ... somehow! With a little help from his friends.

 

I do see Jon enacting the AA myth here and then absolutely and totally rejecting it even as it happens.

I can go with that. If it's in tandem with the Battles--because he is in Battle for the Wall. It shifts to Battle for the Dawn--against wights.

 

So, not just a myth--a real (ancient) northern history. Getting back to real (ancient) titles and weapons. Symbolically, it can work as a rejection of AA. But I also think it's a dream/vision of the future battle tied to past ones. Jon's had visions of the future with the dreams of going into the realm of the dead--really think the dream battle is in that same vein.

 

Agree on Dany--it makes me sad. But I don't think she can help the Long Night.

 

And one other things spinning in my brain from your "empire" post--when Jon makes his vow before the heart tree, he has a spiritual reaction to it. A true connection, vs. Dany's intense, exultant, but world-cracking experience with the dragons. When Jon (with a little help from his friends :) ) chooses to go back to his duty at the Wall, he is staying true to that protector role.

 

So, in that way, Jon is being both Stark-like and Dayne-like--dutiful protector. Unwilling to break his word. Resuing to betray his black brothers any more than he would betray his real brothers or sisters. Ghost even longs for his siblings--very like Jon does for his own. In all that, Jon is very like Ned. But if, as you say, he is Arthur's son (too)--Jon becomes the antithesis to the story of the empire's treachery. Duty and family and honor. 

[LmL]

On one hand, you said:

 

3. Bottom line--agree that AA is a pattern/archetype. To be an AA figure (slaying monsters) one does not need the original sword. THis is why I suspect that it is Brienne or Jaime. Heroes developing along with a broken sword.

 

Which is entirely inconsistent with your insistence that Jon needs Dawn specifically. I'm not saying that one does or does not need a specific sword, just that you can't gave it both ways. Either one needs a specific magic sword, or one does not.

 

You said: 

 

Yes and no--the Last Hero had companions. And when Nan stresses that the Last Hero did not do everything himself, she doesn't elaborate--seems like there is probably more to the story.

 

When did she stress this? I cannot find it. You're thinking about Stannis's quote regarding Azor Ahai, perhaps.

 

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—” (AGOT, Bran)

 

And based on this misunderstanding, you're construing meaning by saying this:

 

The Northern Long Night story (per Nan) stresses there was NOT a singular hero. But a man who works with companions and the Children. AA story focuses on a single figure--sacrificing another, but still a single figure. Slaying a monster. Suggests that the stories have gotten mixed--likely with stories of other heroes. So, all remember a Long Night, but mix it with other hero legends.

 

But Nan's stories hold for the North. Really think that's the key--a man with companions/allies, not a single figure, asking for magical help. The oath said at the Black Gate--men working as a single entity as one sword and shield.

 

But as I said, this is backwards - the AA story is the one which stresses he did not win his war alone. Even TWOIAF talks about him leading the forces of light against the darkness. 

 

I am not saying that the Last Hero couldn't have had help - we know the cotf helped him, and I think his "12 dead friends" might have actually been undead NW like Coldhands - thus merging both ideas, that his friends died but hat one man cannot overcome the Others - but it is false to draw a distinction between the AA and Last Hero storiesvased on fighting alone vs. fighting in groups. 

 

What is this following based on?

 

I do think some of Jon's story fits the AA myth. But Jon's journey fits Nan's tales better--Night's King elements and figures, Last Hero elements, wargs and beastlings--Jon fits the North.

 

So, not sure Jon is AA in the same way you seem sure (unless I've misread you). I really think the stories from multiple cultures got mixed a bit over the ages. But so far, Jon fits the North.

 

As for the actual sword:(1) the AA myth is about the sword and wielder developing together--literally. The Last Hero and how he (and others?) brought back the day--(2) we don't have details on how a sword did that. We do not have Jon developing physically or psychologically with a reworked sword--Jaime and Brienne are doing that.

 

1. What do you mean? AA did not develop, he tried three times to forge a sword, failed twice, and stabbed his wife in a grisly blood sacrifice on the third. I'm just not sure what you mean.

 

2. Yes we do:

 

“We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?”

 

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

 

“Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?”

 

“That was my first thought as well.”

 

Setting aside whether or not Valyrian steel = dragonsteel, we are told that the Others could not stand against his sword. Specifically, that the Last Hero SLEW Others with his sword.

 

As for V steel and light drinking - you're forgetting that fire has a shadow aspect. Not all fire is bright. The ancestral sword of the Targs is Blackfyre, and the black dragons (with their teeth like black swords) breathe black flame shot through with red. We have talk of a stone beast breathing shadow fire - and many times Ned's sword is associated with a shadow sword, as is Stannis's sword when he kills Renly. There's a dark shadowy nature to the Valyrian steel, and indeed all the fire magic we have seen from R'hllorists. Then we have the quote about dark flame in Dany's prophecy - referring to Moquorro, most likely - but again, DARK flame. Not bright flame. They are two different things. Then Moquorro tells Tyrion of dragons, "bright and dark." Dragons are fire made flesh, but within that category, we have bright and dark dragons. Whether that's half metaphorical or all metaphorical, there is a clear association between V steel and dark fire or shadow fire. That's the kind of fire you'd expect from a light drinking sword. And all of the above is associated with death, blood sacrifice, and darkness. 

 

That is what the red sword is about. 

 

Dawn, however, is always pale light, white light. Icy brightness. All the colors returning. If Dawn takes fire, it should have pale flame. Bright fire, not shadow fire or dark flame or black fire shot through with red or anything else associated with Valyrian magics. 

 

Lady Barbrey is correct IMO when she talks about the lie of Azor Ahai. That, I believe is the point of Jon's dream. He's been hearing melisandre talk of Azor Ahai, and hearing Sam talk of the LH slaying Others w Dragonsteel (they may or may not be the same person), then he has a dream where he is playing the role of Azor Ahai - I'm sorry, but that's undeniable, it could not be ANY MORE Azor Ahai than it is, and he does nothing that the Night's King is known for in that dream. He doesn't love a moon pale maiden with blue eyes, he doesn't ensorcel his brothers, he doesn't think of the black gate, and he certainly does not sacrifice to the Others.  He does everything the BSE and Azor Ahai do... 

 

​...and its a nightmare. That is the message, and it fits with your themes if you can just back away from the "Dawn burns red" idea for a second. The red sword is associated with death and murder and betrayal. Blood sacrifice. Azor Ahai is a lie, at least in part. The very best you could say about it is that it might be necessary for someone to turn to the dark side, to the shadow, in order to serve a higher purpose. This is another kind of sacrifice, and its something Jon has already been doing. He has sacrificed his honor, just as Qhorin told to do, to serve a greater good. He felt wrong sleeping with Ygritte and going over to the wildlings (braking his vows), and then feels awful for betraying Ygritte when he goes back to the watch. So, it MIGHT BE that he has to become Azor Ahai, with all its shadowy baggage. If so, this will come at great cost to Jon personally.

 

On the other hand, perhaps he needs to utterly reject this nightmare Azor Ahai legacy, utterly reject blood sacrifice, as you suggest. 

But if this is the case, he should not have a red sword. He will only have a red sword if he embraces the shadow (my opinion of course). 

 

[LmL]

LmL, I was thinking about Dawn the sword yesterday, and I swear came to this same conclusion independently.  Opened up this thread and here it was, with all the quotes and everything! And showing that Jon's dream was a re-enactment of the blood betrayal! I never saw that but I think you are exactly right.  And the above relates to Jon AND Dany.

 

Here's how I got to this reasoning.  I'm skipping out the AA myth because the thing confuses me, and I think it's twisted and false anyway, and for the moment all astronomy. I am just reconstructing out of my own head as a brief summary, taking in Dany's vision of the God-Emperors in her HotU, the Amethyst empress and the milky sword, Sly Wren's comments about blood sacrifice, etc.

 

First, something should be said about the milky swords in the HotU vision that I think has been missed.  There are not a whole lot of swords.  Dany is seeing the god-emperors all at once, but they are a sequence not a mass.  And each of them carry that same sword, so it is an inheritance passed down from one to the other. I believe Dawn, then, is not one of many, but unique, its purpose is to IDENTIFY the true God-Emperor, and it has a power we don't yet know about. (This is so Arthurian but then so are the Daynes in toto).  In a sense, the writers are giving us the Daynes and Dawn's back history, either as a mirror of Westeros or as a sequence.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure about this. You might be right, but I am not sure there is a sequential thing implied. I like a lot of the ideas you have here - but just for point of clarity:

 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings.  In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white and their eyes were Opal and Amethyst, Tourmaline and Jade. "Faster," they cried. "Faster, faster!"

She raised her feet, melting the stone wherever she touched.

"Faster!" The ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward."

A great knife of pain ripped down her back and she felt her skin tear open, and smelled the stench of burning blood, and saw the shadow of wings. 

And Daenerys Targaryen flew. 

"Wake the dragon."

 

The ghosts line the hallway - they are all there at the same time. They are not replacing each other. They cry out together - multiple voices, "together."  In their HANDS (plural) were SWORDS (plural again) of pale fire. 

 

I don't think this kills the idea that it was one sword passed down - they all held it perhaps, so in the dream, they all hold one. But I don't think its accurate to read into this quote that there was only one sword. That is not implied - more the opposite. They all hold swords. 

 

But setting aside that technicality, I like many of your ideas. 

 

The idea that Starfall is named after something that did not actually fall there - I have suspected this for awhile. Its certainly often done in the real world. People migrate, they take their myths with them, and over time... they become localized. It's possible that Dawn is not made from a fallen star - I kind of like the idea that it came from the pale stone of a petrified weirwood. I honestly keeping my mind open about Dawn's composition. I've talked about the phosphorus thing - that's the best evidence for Dawn as a meteor sword. But its possible AA's Lightbringer was the only meteor sword, and Dawn is something else.  Until someone makes a breakthrough as far as discerning how Dawn was made, and why it looks like Milkglass - I think we have to keep an open mind about Dawn.

 

Lightbringer, however, came from the black meteors...  I've just laid out so much evidence for that, andI have a 20,000 word essay in development (no kidding) which is alls bout the black and bloody tide, the streaks of red fire turning to black ice, and the waves of night and blood. Those three are all the same concept, according to my research. 

 

Again, I am not saying Dawn cannot burn red - I am saying that if it does, it will have been used in blood sacrifice, because that is how you get a burning red sword. 

 

Whether or not Dawn is the actual sword of the GEotD emperors or not, its clear (to me anyway) that George is drawing a symbolic link between "dawn" concepts and pale fire. We never get pale fire or pale light at nightfall - only in the morning. And. So. Many. Times. Pale mists of dawn, pale light of dawn, etc etc. 

 

I'll respond to more of this later, I have to run for the evening. I do think the idea of purple being the sum or red and blue is interesting. Stannis goes us the model for an AA type to turn to ice, so the idea of a Dayne being able to turn either way is interesting.

 

I agree that the Valyrians are direct inheritors of the shadowy fire magic of the Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai. I did a study on that idea specifically, in this essay. 

 

Your interperation of turning around at the end of the hall is interesting, especially the idea that the dreams work in reverse to predict the future. That seems like something martin might do - he's so fucking clever - but I will have to go over the chapter again with your idea in mind to have an opinion. Really interesting though, you might be on to something. 

[LmL]

Sly Wren, one more thought. This vision of the SOTM constellation Jon has. I think you have to consider the possibility that the SOTM is a symbol, and that it does not mean a particular sword, just as you suggested about Lightbringer. I've considered the idea that all V steel is made from moon meteors (thats why they are all black), and in this scenario, they are all made the same way as Lightbringer, and therefore any V steel sword can take fire with red (or red and black, as I prefer) fire. 

 

There's an interesting bit in Jaime's dream, which I light-heartedly call "Jaime's Law" (see what I did there):

 

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

 

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

 

I;m not sure if this is just an observation, or a clue about sword flame color - but I already expected Oathkeeper to light up with black fire shot through with red, which is what I think Lightbringer did - and then I read this passage. Oathkeeper is of core red and black, waves of night and blood. Nightbringer, is the truth. 

This would indicate Dawn will glow white, or pale bright fire, etc. 

[Lady Barbrey]

 

 

I'm not so sure about this. You might be right, but I am not sure there is a sequential thing implied. I like a lot of the ideas you have here - but just for point of clarity:

 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings.  In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white and their eyes were Opal and Amethyst, Tourmaline and Jade. "Faster," they cried. "Faster, faster!"

She raised her feet, melting the stone wherever she touched.

"Faster!" The ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward."

A great knife of pain ripped down her back and she felt her skin tear open, and smelled the stench of burning blood, and saw the shadow of wings. 

And Daenerys Targaryen flew. 

"Wake the dragon."

 

The ghosts line the hallway - they are all there at the same time. They are not replacing each other. They cry out together - multiple voices, "together."  In their HANDS (plural) were SWORDS (plural again) of pale fire. 

 

I don't think this kills the idea that it was one sword passed down - they all held it perhaps, so in the dream, they all hold one. But I don't think its accurate to read into this quote that there was only one sword. That is not implied - more the opposite. They all hold swords. 

 

But setting aside that technicality, I like many of your ideas. 

 

The idea that Starfall is named after something that did not actually fall there - I have suspected this for awhile. Its certainly often done in the real world. People migrate, they take their myths with them, and over time... they become localized. It's possible that Dawn is not made from a fallen star - I kind of like the idea that it came from the pale stone of a petrified weirwood. I honestly keeping my mind open about Dawn's composition. I've talked about the phosphorus thing - that's the best evidence for Dawn as a meteor sword. But its possible AA's Lightbringer was the only meteor sword, and Dawn is something else.  Until someone makes a breakthrough as far as discerning how Dawn was made, and why it looks like Milkglass - I think we have to keep an open mind about Dawn.

 

Lightbringer, however, came from the black meteors...  I've just laid out so much evidence for that, andI have a 20,000 word essay in development (no kidding) which is alls bout the black and bloody tide, the streaks of red fire turning to black ice, and the waves of night and blood. Those three are all the same concept, according to my research. 

 

Again, I am not saying Dawn cannot burn red - I am saying that if it does, it will have been used in blood sacrifice, because that is how you get a burning red sword. 

 

Whether or not Dawn is the actual sword of the GEotD emperors or not, its clear (to me anyway) that George is drawing a symbolic link between "dawn" concepts and pale fire. We never get pale fire or pale light at nightfall - only in the morning. And. So. Many. Times. Pale mists of dawn, pale light of dawn, etc etc. 

 

I'll respond to more of this later, I have to run for the evening. I do think the idea of purple being the sum or red and blue is interesting. Stannis goes us the model for an AA type to turn to ice, so the idea of a Dayne being able to turn either way is interesting.

 

I agree that the Valyrians are direct inheritors of the shadowy fire magic of the Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai. I did a study on that idea specifically, in this essay. 

 

Your interperation of turning around at the end of the hall is interesting, especially the idea that the dreams work in reverse to predict the future. That seems like something martin might do - he's so fucking clever - but I will have to go over the chapter again with your idea in mind to have an opinion. Really interesting though, you might be on to something. 

I'll have to look at the passage again too (have to find the book) as I was operating on memory. She didn't turn to face it as I said (though she does turn at another point), but she did throw  herself forward to escape it at the urging of those ghosts and it caught her anyway.  It doesn't change my conclusion though I had better check the whole thing in context.  I think that there being one sword is far more likely than more - normally the regalia of a kingdom is passed down from heir to heir and the World Book confirms there was only one G0d-Emperor at a time, so I stick by the one and only Dawn theory.  How many hundreds, maybe thousands, of years did the Starks hold the original Ice sword before Torrhen bent the knee and it got melted into the Iron Throne?  (I still haven't read how Ice became Dawn theory but will today.)

[Lady Barbrey]

First off, this is AMAZING!!! I'm still processing it to fine tune my response, but my instinctive response is WOW!!! This is amazing. :bowdown:  :bowdown:  :bowdown: (Worshippers should come in groups--but am not trying to imply you are starting a cult. :cool4: )

 

Okay--on to hopefully substantive comments on the above: 

 

Agree on AA myth and potential problems. And excellent catch on the sequential nature of the god-emperors holding the sword. I had assumed more than one sword, but I think you are right. The idea that the sword came from the empire and god-emperor is one I had been intending to try to prove when I got time--I think you handily beat me to it in one go.

 

As for the "true god-emperor"--seems like that will have more context. The role of the Daynes seems more to protect than rule. So, whatever the sword denotes, seems like it may be more along those lines--or has turned into those lines. 

 

Completely agree on the fleeing of the fall of the empire or change of power. Am not sure about keeping the sword for identification--could it not be more about keeping the power in safe hands? Like keeping it away from the Wall? Seems like using the sword to reclaim power would be problematic--whoever can claim power gets it. Magic sword or not.

 

On the breaking of the Arm--I like the idea of the sword's being involved--I am working with my highly speculative theory on ice/milkglass being transformative in light. So, some sort of power there. But still thinks it works for Children to have done it or been involved--I'm pretty sold on the Children (or a faction of them) somehow being tied to the Long Night. So, could also see some as allied to the Daynes--opposing factions? Or are you assuming the Last Hero either was or found one of the Daynes sword-wielders?

 

Amen on the name of Starfall--the idea that the star fell there always seemed odd to me. Seemed more like the name came with the sword, not the star.

 

YES!!! I'm sold--not sure about "intentionally corrupted"--seems like they could have been willing participants. But the rest--yes!!

 

Dany does need to look back and understand, but NOT touch the shadow--you've solved the problem in my head--Quaithe always struck me as creepy and shadowbinders don't seem like wise counsellors. But I think you've got it--the shadow, the blood sacrifice is the problem.

 

Those who willingly sacrifice for others--those sacrifices so far seem noble and acceptable in Martin's world. Blood ritual and sacrifice--NOT good. Jon instinctively shrinks from it. Even when he's attracted to Val and even Mel. The magic beyond the Wall is not that Craster (and his blood sacrifice) are safe--it's the ice and light. Jon refuses blood sacrifice.

 

Your reading of Dany in the House--that's perfect.

 

Agree on the red door--she has to choose her "home"--protection or transformation. But I do think she has a choice. She got dealt a terrible hand. But, unlike Viserys, she is not innately cruel. She does not have enough info about her past (vs. the Starks) and she makes her choice about the dragons in a terrible situation--but she seems to have a choice. In the first ritual, she says "the price was too high." She seems to know. But does the second ritual any way--for multiple reasons. She's almost drunk on fire once she gets going--but I do think she chose--a highly influenced choice, but chose. In Martin's world, even the cursed can choose.

 

On Jon--he seems instinctively repulsed by Mel's sacrifice. Keeps him safe. That is tied to his Starkness. But may also be blood.

 

Completely agree on the Daynes--they seem to be kept hidden. But again, not as rulers but like guardians. The Yronwoods "We Guard the Way"--the way to Starfall? The Hightowers--these Stony Dornish seem like protectors. Same with the Daynes and their sword. Arthur says to Jaime about his devotion in the sept--"blood is the seal of our devotion"--as though self-sacrifice is not just a value of KG for Arthur. But a value per se--as Sword of the Morning. Guardians--can't see an empire restoration in this novel. But guardians--that I can see. With all of the attendant "Arthur returns" references.

 

Am liking the Others and the Dragons possibilities--I'd paralleled the dragons with the direwolves. But I see your point. And the Others seem even more intense in many ways. I need to give this a think.

 

Once again--this is AMAZING!!! I am making a file of the thread in case the upgrade takes hold the next time and all is lost. But please, do us all a favor, and save these ideas. Ready them for your own thread on this--because you've just jumped about 20 miles ahead of where I was--this is fabulous.

You are so kind!  LmL already found a misrepresentation here, though, because I was operating on memory of Dany in the HotU, but it didn't change the conclusion I came to.  I will need to look at that passage again once I find the book.

 

I agree that the "true king" idea is a side issue, and it need never come up, but I just love the idea that it is Jon nevertheless (and he at least finds out about it).  Yes, as a protector.  But I think Dawn is a symbol to the whole kingdom, respected by worshippers of the seven, the old ones, the drowned god, the targaryans, from the north to the south.   If somebody did want to unite the seven kingdoms, would it not be with Dawn? Every other symbol, such as swords or the iron throne, whatever, is fraught with problems, winning and losing sides.  That's not true of Dawn.  That might be most of its magic, if it has any, right there.  "Harmonia", the child of Venus and Mars, blue and red, purple eyes.  Uniter of Westeros against a common foe.  Only show up at its time of need.

 

You're the one who started me thinking about blood sacrifice, unless willing, as a corruptor!  So credit yourself with spreading your logic to me!

 

And now you've got me thinking about the Westeros equivalent to the Underground Railroad!  We light the way, we guard the way.  Don't think so but who knows?  If there are other references from the housewords, there might be something there.

[Ser Knute]

Very good discussion so far.  I'm curious if there's elements of both sides in the truth.

 

Something I'm curious about though.  If LML's theorum is true or at least on the right track; as the Bloodstone Emperor usurps the Amethyst Empress, say Dawn belonged to her (the line yes, but she was is possession and rightfully so) and as Lady Barbrey suggests, her children or supporters etc escape and flee to what is Oldtown, this leaves the BSE with nadda.  Now that doesn't necessarily mean anything but we know he was very deep into sorcery and blood magic.  As well we have textual evidence that when the Valyrians (yes well past the proto-geo-Valyrians) produced their Valyrian blades they were done so with spells and perhaps blood magic.  But, what isn't talked about is what material makes up the actual substance of the blades?  If Dawn was a fallen star, or more specifically, a piece of the moon that was shattered by the red comet, as per LML's theorum, does it differ in its metal content than Valyrian blades?  To clarify, could it be that Dawn was forged of another type of magic?  What element or magic within it are we to believe gives it it's completely distinct appearance and what makes it emanate light rather than soaking it up?

 

It seems quite sensible that with the BSE's sorcery and blood/shadow magic that Valyrian swords drink the light, like Asshai does as well.  Now there is a lot of time in between the BSE and his descendants' reign to the reign of the Valyrians, but I think it's being suggested that their magic is based on the same 'elements', i.e. blood and shadow magics.

 

So how do we reconcile Dawn?  I think LML may have suggested it was an element more in the core of the Moon then other elements that were layered over it, which then suggests that those outer elements of moon-rock were the materials that make/made up Valyrian swords.  However, do we have anything in the text to suggest that the Valyrians were actually working with meteorites to make Valyrian blades?  I'm a bit skeptical of that, the text suggested to me that it was their spells more than anything.

 

Here's another conundrum.  Valyrian steel can withstand Others' blades of Ice and their associated magics.  So can Dawn correct?  Or perhaps more specifically, Dawn 'can' but doesn't need to because the light-force emanating from it is enough to kill them, does that make sense?  If this is true, it seems that whatever magic Dawn has infused with it (if any) is working at the same purpose or benefit if you will, that Valyrian swords do.  Does that then turn any theories on the Others and their origins on its head?  

 

I mean, if the BSE theorum is true, and they're a corrupted section of humanity, and the AE's line is the more purer form, and the story is about their reclamation of their kingdom or humanity as a whole (afterall, there was plenty of peace and prosperity until the BSE came along); then what role do the Others really play?  Sure we can say they're in opposition to all humanity or perhaps all light, but then doesn't that sort of align them more towards the BSE?  Yet, Valyrian steel kills them?  Does not compute.  Something is missing.

[LmL]

In the interest of contributing something other than quibbling over facts and details, I shall leave you guys this bit. 

 

When Stannis draw Lightbringer from the pyre of burning gods (the mother, specifically, which represents the moon goddess from which Lightbringer was made), pay attention to the two squires who pick it up. These two represent the son of AA, I am thinking. Which very well might be the Last Hero.  I am skipping a few paragraphs in this sequence for space considerations:

 

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. His squires stepped up to attend him. Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king’s right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed as he tied a stiff leather cape around His Grace’s neck.

 

The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the king’s clothing.

 

A ragged wave of shouts gave answer, just as Stannis’s glove began to smolder. Cursing, the king thrust the point of the sword into the damp earth and beat out the flames against his leg. “Lord, cast your light upon us!” Melisandre called out.

 

Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.

 

​The Lord of Light "casts" his light upon people by dropping his fiery hand - the fiery hand of R'hllor has 1,ooo fingers, remember, that's our meteor shower - and by thrusting his sword in the damp earth (the sea of earth, or near the shoreline..) and recall our introduction to Pyke:

 

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past.

 

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sidedpillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire.

 

 

Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown.(ACOK, Theon)

 

Same story. Anyway, back to Dragonstone:

 

 

The fire had started to dwindle by the time Melisandre and the squires departed with the precious sword. Davos and his sons joined the crowd making its way down to the shore and the waiting ships. “Devan acquitted himself well,” he said as they went.

 

“He fetched the glove without dropping it, yes,” said Dale.

 

​The fiery hand represents the metoer shower, as I said, and so Devan fetches both Lightbringer and the glove, because they refer to the same thing. Moon meteors. Which are made into a red sword.  

 

Allard nodded. “That badge on Devan’s doublet, the fiery heart, what was that? The Baratheon sigil is a crowned stag.”

 

“A lord can choose more than one badge,” Davos said. Dale smiled. “A black ship and an onion, Father?” Allard kicked at a stone. “The Others take our onion … and that flaming heart. It was an ill thing to burn the Seven.”

 

By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

 

The onion in the sky over Davos's black ship is the moon, not an onion. And you'll notice Allard kicks the stone in between the two sentences about the onion. The Others take the stone moon... and the burning heart. I honestly am not sure what this is telling us about the Others. When you "give someone a sword," it can me stabbing them with it. I dunno. 

But here's point of all this: the sigils. Daven goes from black ship and white moon to a burning heart. What about house Farring???

 

House Farring is a noble house of the Crownlands. According to semi-canon sources, they blazon their arms with per pale purple and white, two knights combatant with swords, counter-charged.^[1]

 

Go take a look: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Farring

 

Its a white knight on purple with a white sword fighting against a purple person with a purple sword. The tip of the purple sword that crosses the white side is white, and vise versa (not sure if this detail is important or not). So, for starters, this has something to do with House Dayne, right? Bryen Farring went from purple and white knights fighting to a burning heart. Not sure if the transitions mean anything - probably, I'd guess. A stone moon turning into a burning heart is exactly how you forge Lightbringer; but what is the meaning of the second? 

 

Why is the white knight fighting the purple? Theses are the young squires of Stannis - and I again I think this implies "son of AA." Most are familiar with Davos's "shadow chaser" scene at the pained table, when his shadow falls on the map like a sword, and he lights fires to "chase the shadows" from the room. Devan does something similar in ADWD, chasing shadows from Mel's tower room. All of this strengthen the idea of "Eldric Shadowchaser as the Westerosi son of AA." It could be that the two squires are showing us different things about one person, or that AA had two sons (second son / sun, anyone?).  I've also suggested that AA was defeated at Battle Isle and that someone may have taken his sword (I've suggested a lot of things, to be fair).  It could also be that the scene is showing us different phases, and everyone is AA: Stannis thrusts the sword into the damp earth, and then another AA type picks it up after it lands (making a sword from the meteors). 

 

This would also strengthen the idea that the Dayne's are descendants of the Amethyst Empress, or possibly her and AA. 

 

And again, we have an association with purple (Dayne eyes in this case?) and the white sword / white knight. 

 

Finally, I'll point out that after a red sword's fire goes out... it is a black sword. 

 

One interp of the Farring sigil is that is that it represents First Men (white, ice) merging with GEotD (purple). Meaning, house Dayne is one half GEotD blood and one half FM blood. Or it could indicate the son of AA is a Dayne - purple eyes, white sword. But it also seems to imply this person turned to fire magic also, as the Farring sigil becomes a burning heart. 

 

Finally, the seventh wife of Walder Frey is a Farring. 

 

The seventh wanderer is the ice moon, and fire moon the eighth. I've seen the wives of Walder Frey used to represent the wanderers before, when Cat jokes about becoming the ninth lady Frey, and killing the eighth to do so. This would associate house Dayne with the ice moon, potentially. The idea is that the comet is the into wanderer, and kills the eighth, leaving 7. 

 

“We must accept?” he echoed peevishly. “I don’t see you offering to become the ninth Lady Frey, Cat.”

 

“The eighth Lady Frey is still alive and well, so far as I know,” she replied. Thankfully. Otherwise it might well have come to that, knowing Lord Walder. (ASOS, Cat)

 

I am sort of seeing a link here between the 7th wanderer, the ice moon, and house Dayne. And the Others. 

Anyway, see what you guys make of this.