Rant & Rave without repercussion S 5/S 6 speculation continued [book and show spoilers]

[TepidHands]

2 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Guys, I think this whole conversation deserves his own thread. No? Like Le Cygne keeps repeating this actually a thread where we talk about things which we dislike. It is now becoming a thread: what is sexism? Is the argument that there is sexism in the show true? 

While at this moment the discussion is still civilized (thanks to the all participants for this), similar discussion in the past led to the result the thread was closed. And because thanks to this thread people are allowed to rant about the show to each other without annoying people who love the show, it would be very sad if the thread would be closed.

 

Its own thread, or perhaps private messages. No one is convincing anyone of anything, and it's not furthering the cause of picking apart this carcass of a show. It pains me (and maybe others) that we're turning on each other over matters of opinion over who's got it worse in Weiseroff, and I'll tell you who does: THE VIEWERS. 

[Tijgy]

I read recently an interesting blog about how much Talisa actually hurt the parallel GRRM made between Robb and Theon/the two Jeynes (http://janiedean.tumblr.com/post/119376397788/a-few-words-concerning-jeyne-westerling-jeyne).

 

[Dolorous Gabe]

1 hour ago, Chebyshov said:

I'm sorry, but how many times do their characters need to be changed so that they act in accordance with sexist assumptions before we can say it's sexism?

• Brienne's femininity is stripped away
• Arya calls other girls stupid and uses gendered slurs against them to prove she's "not like other girls"
• Jon outright tells Ygritte (the smurfette) she's "not like other girls" despite the fact that she is, in fact, quite similar to many of the mysteriously excluded spearwives
• Selyse was altered to be a giant asshole to Shireen, and then only after Shireen was being burned alive did she have a breakdown and D&D commented about how she's "finally a mother again"
• Sansa's "feminine-coded skills" have absolutely no use; they literally have her stomp around with a "miniature Needle" around her neck because she gave up sewing in a moment of empowerment (??). Then she was made into a total victim again who was continually slapped back into place by Ramsay, though she could stand-up to Myranda, apparently
• Cat begged Ned not to go to King's Landing and was basically silenced her entire plotline
• Marg was changed to be a sexual manipulator to show her empowerment, but apparently because she's hot it's okay.
• Dany was passive in her own plotline; Tyrion argued for her to Hizdahr, she became a damsel in distress and needed to be saved by her menz, and is now smartly leaving breadcrumbs from them to save her again
• the Waif was made into this horrible asshole who is catty with Arya for literally no reason
• every woman in Dorne is stupid, hysterical, and overreacts to events while the men calmly sit and talk politics
• Sam is turned into a showboating bro who finds sex loopholes in the NW vows and is happy to brag for his woman that he killed a Thenn and a White Walker
• Jaime never has to deal with his new disability because what is PTSD? Isn't it wacky that his golden hand stopped a sword? Gods forbid they show weakness with him.
• Jon has to be given random enemies to swing his sword against as his only form of character development because he is a Man of Action, I guess
• Tyrion's self-delusions about and entitled attitude towards women are gone; they all love him and he's perfect. 

 

Thank you for this list, there really are that many examples to support the claim that whenever I bring up the criticism in a discussion with someone I can never remember nearly all of them.

There are the occasional dialogue changes as well in relation to Arya and Brienne. "Most girls are stupid" and "You sound like a bloody woman".

[Le Cygne]

10 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Thank you for this list, there really are that many examples to support the claim that whenever I bring up the criticism in a discussion with someone I can never remember nearly all of them.

There are the occasional dialogue changes as well in relation to Arya and Brienne. "Most girls are stupid" and "You sound like a bloody woman".

Here are some:

• Show Brienne (in the books she said "Are you so craven?"): "You sound like a bloody woman."
• Show Catelyn (about not loving Jon Snow, never said this in the books): "I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived."
• Show Sansa (in the books, had her own story, never said this right before being raped while playing a minor character): "Lord Tyrion was kind, he was gentle, he never touched me."
• Show Arya (never said this in the books): "Most girls are idiots."
• Show Asha (Yara) (in the books, she thought, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued."): "You're a cunt."
• Show Tyene (never said this in the books): "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy."

There's also Sansa's poop joke after the forced marriage.

Show: "You cut a little hole in his mattress and you stuff sheep dung inside."

Books: "Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other."

[Dolorous Gabe]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

 

• Show Brienne (in the books she said "Are you so craven?"): "You sound like a bloody woman."
• Show Catelyn (about not loving Jon Snow, never said this in the books): "I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived."
• Show Sansa (in the books, had her own story, never said this right before being raped while playing a minor character): "Lord Tyrion was kind, he was gentle, he never touched me."
• Show Arya (never said this in the books): "Most girls are idiots."
• Show Asha (Yara) (in the books, she thought, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued."): "You're a cunt."
• Show Tyene (never said this in the books): "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy."

Thanks, I'm jotting these down.

[HairGrowsBack]

it just boggles the mind how incapable they are of putting themselves in the shoes of anyone who isn't a dudebro.

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Here are some:

• Show Brienne (in the books she said "Are you so craven?"): "You sound like a bloody woman."
• Show Catelyn (about not loving Jon Snow, never said this in the books): "I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived."
• Show Sansa (in the books, had her own story, never said this right before being raped while playing a minor character): "Lord Tyrion was kind, he was gentle, he never touched me."
• Show Arya (never said this in the books): "Most girls are idiots."
• Show Asha (Yara) (in the books, she thought, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued."): "You're a cunt."
• Show Tyene (never said this in the books): "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy."

Edit : yet the only woman who should be saying this kind of horrible stuff (because that's part of, you know, her character, is constantly woobified

[Tijgy]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

 

• Show Brienne (in the books she said "Are you so craven?"): "You sound like a bloody woman."
• Show Catelyn (about not loving Jon Snow, never said this in the books): "I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived."
• Show Sansa (in the books, had her own story, never said this right before being raped while playing a minor character): "Lord Tyrion was kind, he was gentle, he never touched me."
• Show Arya (never said this in the books): "Most girls are idiots."
• Show Asha (Yara) (in the books, she thought, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued."): "You're a cunt."
• Show Tyene (never said this in the books): "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy."

IMO the bolded one is actually the worst.

[StepStark]

13 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

lolololololol. Your lens is wild, dude. Sexism is not at all a system of oppression that relegates women from positions of power, sure Jan.

How do we know them cutting Jeyne was sexist? HMMMM well, they thought Talisa would be "better for the show," right? Which means they must have found Jeyne not particularly cinematic. They devalued her personality on a very fundamental level. Why would they do this? Huh, gee, I'm stumped. Especially situated in their pattern of scripting every single woman in accordance with sexist tropes. The one exception is maybe Carol, but I think that's more because they don't even understand the implications of what they write.

It's the pattern, people.

Stop telling me what components of the show I'm allowed to criticize. Stop telling me I'm wrong for being offended. Stop tone policing me. Stop using the term "prove" when you don't know what it means (I say this as someone with a scientific background; literary analysis is not criminal law). And stop derailing this thread with your insecurities.

This is an incredibly valid critique, and the idea that we can't somehow talk about one of the show's most blindingly obvious issues is ludicrous. 

Throughout discussion I repeatedly said that it's your right to criticize whatever you want. I never said what you're allowed to criticize and what you aren't allowed. I didn't say that you are wrong to feel offended, but the opposite, I keep telling that D&D actually use offensive, sexist tropes all the time.

However it seems that I don't have the right to disagree with you without you acting as if I offended you. Just to repeat once more, that was not my intention at all. I just wanted to disagree with some of your assumptions. For example, you're saying that replacing Jeyne for Talisa is sexist, because Jeyne wasn't good enough for them. But how would you explain the change from Vargo to Lock then? Is that sexists too? I can't see how it can be. If they didn't find Jeyne cinematic, but did find Talisa cinematic, it doesn't make them sexists, but it does make them horrible writers, because only the worst of the writers would ever put something like Talisa in their work. If they were afraid to put a character with a stutter on screen, and they replaced them with a semi-anarchist who despises high-born knights, it doesn't make D&D sexists, but it makes them horrible writers that suffer from terrible insecurities. And I thought that this thread is as good as any for such a point.

But, seeing how many posters seem to be against further debate, I'm out. I just hope I didn't offend anyone, just like I myself don't feel offended in any way.

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

it just boggles the mind how incapable they are of putting themselves in the shoes of anyone who isn't a dudebro.

Edit : yet the only woman who should be saying this kind of horrible stuff (because that's part of, you know, her character, is constantly woobified

Yes, isn't that interesting.

[Joan Jett]

2 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

I'm sorry, but how many times do their characters need to be changed so that they act in accordance with sexist assumptions before we can say it's sexism?

• Jon outright tells Ygritte (the smurfette) she's "not like other girls" despite the fact that she is, in fact, quite similar to many of the mysteriously excluded spearwives

While I agree with the point you're trying to make here, it should be noted that this particular scene between Jon and Ygritte was actually written by GRRM. So it probably shouldn't be bundled up with all the other cases of sexist writing by D&D. 

Jon actually has a very similar attitude towards women in the books. He's drawn to girls who aren't typically feminine. "Not like other girls" is literally his type. 

Quote

 

And yes, I will take your women too. I have no need of blushing maidens looking to be protected, but I will take as many spearwives as will come.”

...

"They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her."

 

 

 

 

And there's also the fact that in AGOT Arya's statement " the woman is important, too" is actually directed at him.

[Le Cygne]

I agree with the larger point, too.

Some considerations of what might be going on, GRRM writes what they tell him to write. And they edit his scripts, after he turns them in.

"Not like other girls" is a common thing said in romances, it means she's got some special appeal for him, in particular. GRRM knows how to write romances.

The show, however, does not. That's an understatement.

[TepidHands]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

 

Show: "You cut a little hole in his mattress and you stuff sheep dung inside."

Books: "Her torments would soon be over, one way or the other."

Sheep shift. Shift. Because she's a foolish, empty-headed girl, which she also tells us every once in a while.  

[Le Cygne]

They made her smile at him, while she was forcibly married, just like they made her smile at LF, while he was pimping her out to Ramsay.

"You can imagine what it was like for me"... How about us imagining what it's like for Sansa. How about telling that story.

SMILE! Why don't you SMILE? Sigh.

[Kris Brass]

18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They made her smile at him, while she was forcibly married, just like they made her smile at LF, while he was pimping her out to Ramsay.

"You can imagine what it was like for me"... How about us imagining what it's like for Sansa. How about telling that story.

SMILE! Why don't you SMILE? Sigh.

Why would someone care what it was like for Sansa?  She is probably the most annoying and heartless character in the entire series.  She does whatever she has to to save her own ass and doesn't worry about the asses of other people.  She has no loyalty to her family and is easily manipulated, so long as it benefits her.  She doesn't add anything to the story and probably won't.  The only relevancy she has in the story is being one of the last Starks alive.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Seven Save me, how many pages?  LOLOL  

Well, I did a bad thing, I guess?  I've set someone onto the road to being a Ranter.  Years ago, back before my total disillusionment, I used to tell this friend:  YOU SHOULD WATCH (and read, LOL).  Well, they are snowed in on a looooooong weekend and finally borrowed my dvds of the first three seasons.  I warned them:  It sucks now, LOL  I don't want to hear about that later, LOL  So, for now they are enjoying the flawed, but fun, early journey, and soon.......I will have New Ranters, in my personal life, anyway, LOL  

[Toth]

4 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Seven Save me, how many pages?  LOLOL  

Well, I did a bad thing, I guess?  I've set someone onto the road to being a Ranter.  Years ago, back before my total disillusionment, I used to tell this friend:  YOU SHOULD WATCH (and read, LOL).  Well, they are snowed in on a looooooong weekend and finally borrowed my dvds of the first three seasons.  I warned them:  It sucks now, LOL  I don't want to hear about that later, LOL  So, for now they are enjoying the flawed, but fun, early journey, and soon.......I will have New Ranters, in my personal life, anyway, LOL  

Well... you should have introduced them to the books first. I did that with a fellow student. He had heard a lot of good things about the show from his friends, but I simply needed two things to convince him: A brief summary of the initial summary to hook him to the story and a couple of interviews where D&D exposed themselves as the hacks they are to scare him away from the show. The "themes are for 8th-grade book-reports" thing did it for him since he is an English teacher in training and just went "Who the hell gave them their writing degrees?"

Well, I'm still kinda smug about this semester. I made acquintance with another fellow student, somehow it turned out she is an GoT fan and I just needed to ask her a couple of questions regarding the logic of certain character arcs to smash every single illusion she still had to pieces. Not that she wasn't kinda bored from the fifth season anyway, but she went from naive Unsullied watcher to Ranter over the course of not even three minutes. Now she hears the audiobooks.

[HexMachina]

Locking this one,new thread is up already. Pleae pay attention to the OP, thank you

[Tijgy]

12 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Seven Save me, how many pages?  LOLOL  

Well, I did a bad thing, I guess?  I've set someone onto the road to being a Ranter.  Years ago, back before my total disillusionment, I used to tell this friend:  YOU SHOULD WATCH (and read, LOL).  Well, they are snowed in on a looooooong weekend and finally borrowed my dvds of the first three seasons.  I warned them:  It sucks now, LOL  I don't want to hear about that later, LOL  So, for now they are enjoying the flawed, but fun, early journey, and soon.......I will have New Ranters, in my personal life, anyway, LOL  

This reminds me of myself. You must see GoT ... and now ranting about the series, warning people that they should not see it, ... The only scene I think people have to see is the one where they find the puppies. But that has more the do with the fact I am totally obsessed with them than anything else. 

(After Jon says "Do you want to hold it", it looks like Ned, Jory and Theon are all three  looking like: "No, Jon, don't give the direwolf puppy to your little brother! They are dangerous! No, Bran will probably want to keep it. What did you do? LOL - I admit this is my little headcannon but I probably think Ned thought that.)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 minutes ago, Toth said:

Well... you should have introduced them to the books first. I did that with a fellow student. He had heard a lot of good things about the show from his friends, but I simply needed two things to convince him: A brief summary of the initial summary to hook him to the story and a couple of interviews where D&D exposed themselves as the hacks they are to scare him away from the show. The "themes are for 8th-grade book-reports" thing did it for him since he is an English teacher in training and just went "Who the hell gave them their writing degrees?"

Well, I'm still kinda smug about this semester. I made acquintance with another fellow student, somehow it turned out she is an GoT fan and I just needed to ask her a couple of questions regarding the logic of certain character arcs to smash every single illusion she still had to pieces. Not that she wasn't kinda bored from the fifth season anyway, but she went from naive Unsullied watcher to Ranter over the course of not even three minutes. Now she hears the audiobooks.

Well, sadly, my friend really doesn't have time for the read, at least right now.  And, she's sharing the show with her significant other.  I warned her and warned her.  But, I'm hoping that she will pick up the books, and read them, however long it takes with her short amount of free time.........once she hits the total WTFness of the whole show.  It's a cumulative effect.