Heresy 180

[Melifeather]

BeautifulBacon has identified Euron as a failed apprentice of Bloodraven's. You can read the details over on Last Hearth.

Yesterday she posted the beginnings of what she feels is Jon's Marvel inspiration: The Dark Knight. Complete with dark armor and a black flaming sword. She hasn't fleshed the details out yet, but it's pretty tantalizing. The Dark Knight comes from a long line of heroes who wield a magic sword made from a meteor, and the previous knight abandoned the sword by inserting it back into the meteor where it originated from to wait for a future, more deserving knight.

[Black Crow]

We've been discussing the "Euron as failed/rogue apprentice" and its certainly possible from what we've been given in the text, but its a little difficult to see where [and if] GRRM might actually go with that at this point. Thus far he seems a touch peripheral.

[MaesterSam]

BeautifulBacon has identified Euron as a failed apprentice of Bloodraven's. You can read the details over on Last Hearth.

Yesterday she posted the beginnings of what she feels is Jon's Marvel inspiration: The Dark Knight. Complete with dark armor and a black flaming sword. She hasn't fleshed the details out yet, but it's pretty tantalizing. The Dark Knight comes from a long line of heroes who wield a magic sword made from a meteor, and the previous knight abandoned the sword by inserting it back into the meteor where it originated from to wait for a future, more deserving knight.

So Jon is Ashara's kid after all? Or it was Arthur who stole Lyanna? [See how this gives things away?  ]The best part is, we'll be able to test its accuracy in a few short months, when TWOW comes out or the mummers show it to us. If Jon is half Dayne, we'll have to take a much, much closer look at these comic books

[LmL]

So Jon is Ashara's kid after all? Or it was Arthur who stole Lyanna? [See how this gives things away?  ]The best part is, we'll be able to test its accuracy in a few short months, when TWOW comes out or the mummers show it to us. If Jon is half Dayne, we'll have to take a much, much closer look at these comic books

No, the Black Knight of Marvel fame has a black sword, not a white sword. There was a black sword made from a meteorite in the Dawn Age, according to me - the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai's black sword made from a black meteorite. Jon is carrying on that legacy as one manifestation of Azor Ahai reborn, which is why he wields black swords. That burn red. 

Not Dawn. Not this. ;)

[Lady Dyanna]

No, the Black Knight of Marvel fame has a black sword, not a white sword. There was a black sword made from a meteorite in the Dawn Age, according to me - the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai's black sword made from a black meteorite. Jon is carrying on that legacy as one manifestation of Azor Ahai reborn, which is why he wields black swords. That burn red. 

Not Dawn. Not this.

Funny thing is, the Black Knight started with the black meteor sword, but was also later granted the sword of light as well from the lady of the lake. He has a pretty long and complicated plot line from what I could tell when I looked him up last night. I thought that PP was comparing him to Arthur Dayne and not Jon but maybe I misunderstood.

[LmL]

Funny thing is, the Black Knight started with the black meteor sword, but was also later granted the sword of light as well from the lady of the lake. He has a pretty long and complicated plot line from what I could tell when I looked him up last night. I thought that PP was comparing him to Arthur Dayne and not Jon but maybe I misunderstood.

Great, so George's influences are themselves convoluted and conflicted! Lol Insuppose we'll just have to wait and see who gets what color flaming sword. Maybe we will see a whole rack of flaming swords.

"You get a Lightbringer! And you get a Lightbringer! Everyone gets a Lightbringer!" 

[e1kabong]

Great, so George's influences are themselves convoluted and conflicted! Lol Insuppose we'll just have to wait and see who gets what color flaming sword. Maybe we will see a whole rack of flaming swords.

"You get a Lightbringer! And you get a Lightbringer! Everyone gets a Lightbringer!" 

Actually, there's probably just two. In the world book, in the history of Yi Ti, there is a story of an emperor who worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky. He was said to have practiced cannibalism and necromancy and his rise to power began the Long Night. I'm all for the Dawn=Lightbringer theory, so it's not a stretch to theorize that, if a black meteor is responsible for the Long Night, a white meteor may have had the power to end it. 

So, I think we'd be looking at a maximum of 2 meteor swords. However, I've postulated that the black meteor artifact may very well be armor and that this was the armor made from "black ice" Jon Snow was wearing in his dream about the flaming sword. 

[LmL]

Actually, there's probably just two. In the world book, in the history of Yi Ti, there is a story of an emperor who worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky. He was said to have practiced cannibalism and necromancy and his rise to power began the Long Night. I'm all for the Dawn=Lightbringer theory, so it's not a stretch to theorize that, if a black meteor is responsible for the Long Night, a white meteor may have had the power to end it. 

So, I think we'd be looking at a maximum of 2 meteor swords. However, I've postulated that the black meteor artifact may very well be armor and that this was the armor made from "black ice" Jon Snow was wearing in his dream about the flaming sword. 

Yeah I tend to agree - two original meteor swords, black and white. 

The black ice armor is a fun one to interpret. Does it refer to his father Rhaegar's night black armor? Is black ice obsidian (frozen fire) or Valyrian steel? Ned's black sword is called Ice, and Jon thinks of it all the time. Is that was this is about? Jon is a sword in the darkness, and so he himself represents a V Steel (black ice) sword? Hard to say. Maybe some of all of these is meant. 

[Hamilcar]

This guy Mike Klimo wrote a pretty mind-blowing analysis of the Star Wars movies (http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/) arguing that the whole set of 6 movies is in fact an enormous chiastic structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiastic_structure) with several levels of mirroring and self-reference. You can look at episode 1-6 as pairings of ABC A'B'C' but also as ABCC'B'A'. The series of posts by Klimo not only highlights how these correspondences work out, sometimes to the level of consciously paralleling and mirroring scenes across the prequels, but ultimately also makes the entire set of movies reflect the underlying resolution: Anakin falls and is redeemed, not by returning to the light side, but by transcending beyond light and dark and thus reaching eternal life. The Jedi come off just as one-sided and ultimately foolish as the Sith. Anakin really DID bring balance in the end. 

Ever since I read this, I can't shake off the feeling that ASOIAF is employing a similar structure, though it may not be obvious yet since the series isn't finished. The clues (I think) are all over, starting with the title, which is basically a declaration of dualism. Cycles and epi-cycles fill the story, with "balance" being a key aspect. "Fire consumes, ice preserves", "only death can pay for life" etc. etc. A whole set of characters go around *telling* us that the world of ice and fire is dualistic, so why isn't the entire story?

One hunch I have is that Jon Snow's death and rebirth are the center of the story as we switch from summer to winter. He'll bring balance to the world which has clearly been upset by events in the distant path. I also suspect that many if not all the main characters will undergo similar "chiastic" story lines. 

Thoughts? Have others already noticed this?

 

[Black Crow]

Yeah I tend to agree - two original meteor swords, black and white. 

The black ice armor is a fun one to interpret. Does it refer to his father Rhaegar's night black armor? Is black ice obsidian (frozen fire) or Valyrian steel? Ned's black sword is called Ice, and Jon thinks of it all the time. Is that was this is about? Jon is a sword in the darkness, and so he himself represents a V Steel (black ice) sword? Hard to say. Maybe some of all of these is meant. 

I think that its got to be two in order to fit with this Ice and Fire business, and I think the problem I have with the R+L=J theory or rather the argument that if true Jon would represent both Ice and Fire, is that could be as disastrous as a victory by Ice over Fire [or vice versa] since it would not represent a balancing of the two forces at all, but rather the removal of all checks and balances by uniting them as one. I think the point is that there are two for that very reason and must always be two.

[Black Crow]

... I can't shake off the feeling that ASOIAF is employing a similar structure, though it may not be obvious yet since the series isn't finished. The clues (I think) are all over, starting with the title, which is basically a declaration of dualism. Cycles and epi-cycles fill the story, with "balance" being a key aspect. "Fire consumes, ice preserves", "only death can pay for life" etc. etc. A whole set of characters go around *telling* us that the world of ice and fire is dualistic, so why isn't the entire story?

One hunch I have is that Jon Snow's death and rebirth are the center of the story as we switch from summer to winter. He'll bring balance to the world which has clearly been upset by events in the distant path. I also suspect that many if not all the main characters will undergo similar "chiastic" story lines. 

Thoughts? Have others already noticed this?

 

I refer to the answer I've just given and think that Jon's role is indeed going to be important not by combining Ice and Fire but by providing the counterbalance to Fire.

BTW: Merry Chrismas to all.

[Melifeather]

I agree with the assessment of dualities and that Jon the Dark Knight will wield the black sword of fire. It makes me think that the Starks and Daynes were positioned at opposite ends of the realm to protect from respective magics. The Starks are perhaps in reality a "fire" family with a weapon of fire to protect the realm from ice magic, and the Daynes are in reality an "ice" family with a weapon of ice to protect the realm from fire magic. The Starks are frozen fire as well as their ancestral blade Ice.

Winterfell itself is built upon the crater the meteor made and the heated water coursing through it's walls comes from the heat of the meteor. Ice will be found in the heart of the meteor in the lower level of the crypts.

The blade Dawn which seems alive with light is actually an ice weapon which reflects the light. Too bad no one had it on hand to kill Stannis' shadows.

[e1kabong]

I think that its got to be two in order to fit with this Ice and Fire business, and I think the problem I have with the R+L=J theory or rather the argument that if true Jon would represent both Ice and Fire, is that could be as disastrous as a victory by Ice over Fire [or vice versa] since it would not represent a balancing of the two forces at all, but rather the removal of all checks and balances by uniting them as one. I think the point is that there are two for that very reason and must always be two.

Which, to be fair, is still a possibility. There's a lot of speculation out there that Jon Snow will not be the hero in this story. If we make the parallel that black=ice and white=fire (or reverse, it doesn't really matter for sake of this comparison), then Jon, being equal parts black and white, would become an aspect of Death, paralleling the symbols and iconography of the Faceless Men, who worship Death. Thus, R+L=Death. 

Speaking of the Snow-fall, has anyone brought up in the heresy how many parallels Jon Snow has with Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)? Since the Force Awakens came out, might as well rehash it, even if it's been mentioned:

They're both characters whose personality is very much directly influenced by their relationship with their mother (or lack thereof). They both leave their lives behind to be inducted in an esoteric, semi-monastic order (The Watch/Jedi) who some believe are out-dated that they quickly rise to prominence in, in spite of the concerns of most senior leadership. They both have a forbidden romance that betrays ideals of their order (Padme/Ygritte). Both are given unusual attention by mysterious figures with dark powers (Emperor, Mel). They suffer betrayals (either actual or perceived) at the hands of those they call their brothers and slain by them. And, like Obiwan believed in Anakin, there are those who believe that Jon Snow will bring balance (R+L=J Fanboy/girl). Postulating forward (theoretical from here forward), they are both consumed by fire, only to be resurrected by their mysterious benefactor. Lastly, at one point or another, they are caught up in a conflict between a ruling organization and a rag-tag group of people obsessed with freedom and independence. 

As if all that weren't enough, Jon Snow dreams that he is a knight with shiny black armor and a red, fiery sword in his hand. It can't get more overt than that, I don't think. 

[LmL]

I agree with the assessment of dualities and that Jon the Dark Knight will wield the black sword of fire. It makes me think that the Starks and Daynes were positioned at opposite ends of the realm to protect from respective magics. The Starks are perhaps in reality a "fire" family with a weapon of fire to protect the realm from ice magic, and the Daynes are in reality an "ice" family with a weapon of ice to protect the realm from fire magic. The Starks are frozen fire as well as their ancestral blade Ice.

Winterfell itself is built upon the crater the meteor made and the heated water coursing through it's walls comes from the heat of the meteor. Ice will be found in the heart of the meteor in the lower level of the crypts.

The blade Dawn which seems alive with light is actually an ice weapon which reflects the light. Too bad no one had it on hand to kill Stannis' shadows.

I agree with a lot of this, FC. Most of it, actually, except I am not sure where the actual meteors and craters are, because there are so many prime candidates. But yeah, I cold see that, a meteor under the WF. Symbolically, it would just be another version of the "dragon under WF" idea. And yeah I see Dawn as icy, no doubt. 

[Black Crow]

Or not so much Icy as milky white Moonlight rather than Fire/Sun-light

[MaesterSam]

Which, to be fair, is still a possibility. There's a lot of speculation out there that Jon Snow will not be the hero in this story. If we make the parallel that black=ice and white=fire (or reverse, it doesn't really matter for sake of this comparison), then Jon, being equal parts black and white, would become an aspect of Death, paralleling the symbols and iconography of the Faceless Men, who worship Death. Thus, R+L=Death. 

I'm LOVING this connection!! Black and white are everywhere, from the obvious House of B&W to Bran's Cave of B&W, and even the black and white killer butterflies on Naath. I've thought of the black NW on the white Wall before, but never of Jon himself being black and white. That is an awesome possibility! 

[Black Crow]

I'm LOVING this connection!! Black and white are everywhere, from the obvious House of B&W to Bran's Cave of B&W, and even the black and white killer butterflies on Naath. I've thought of the black NW on the white Wall before, but never of Jon himself being black and white. That is an awesome possibility! 

Its a possibility, certainly, and one which I think is more likely than the popular interpretation of Jon saving the day through being the union of Ice and Fire. As I said above such a union far from balancing Ice and Fire and thus by some mysterious process bringing peace and harmony to the world would be extremely dangerous because it would remove all checks and balances.

There is a problem of course with this interpretation in that if Jon is the union then he is already that dangerous union. Is it his birth which has set in train the approaching threats of Ice and Fire, or does it require the catalyst of his death?

I can see either working, but there's really no hint of such an outcome in the original synopsis - and while as we've discussed it can't be entirely relied upon, what we do have in there is not merely a vacuum or absence of major spoilers but a consistent stress on opposed duality with those desperate journeys to the respective hearts of Ice and Fire.

 

[Melifeather]

Or not so much Icy as milky white Moonlight rather than Fire/Sun-light

Yes. I definitely now see Dawn as an ice weapon that reflects the moonlight. 

I don't, at this time, see Jon as both dualities. He is of House Stark that much seems clear, whoever his true parents turn out to be, but even though the Starks live in the North does not mean that they are of ice. They are meant to protect the realm from ice so they are really of fire, frozen fire to be precise. And if Jon is the Black Knight, then he is from a long line of heroes destined to wield the original Ice, which is a fiery black sword made from the meteor.

 

[wolfmaid7]

Yep i agree with Black Crow's description of ice that "moonlight" comparison seems more apt.

[Black Crow]

 

Yes. I definitely now see Dawn as an ice weapon that reflects the moonlight. 

I don't, at this time, see Jon as both dualities. He is of House Stark that much seems clear, whoever his true parents turn out to be, but even though the Starks live in the North does not mean that they are of ice. They are meant to protect the realm from ice so they are really of fire, frozen fire to be precise. And if Jon is the Black Knight, then he is from a long line of heroes destined to wield the original Ice, which is a fiery black sword made from the meteor.

 

Nah, I'm confident as to Jon representing the bright moonlight reflected on the snow and ice; the Starks ancient and modern may be a lot of things but linked to fire isn't one of them.

And on that note I think its time to close down and move this conversation to Heresy 181.

See you over there.