Noble Houses/Other Houses

[Apoarttc]

Hi!

Big fan of the wiki here! While checking houses, I cannot fail to notice than while most Houses fall under the category "Noble Houses", other are put in a category called "Other Houses". 

This category often includes really minor houses, like the clans from the wolfswood (Bole, Branch, etc.); scions of greater houses (Lannett, Darke, Dargood), or really minor houses from the Iron Islands (Humble, Netley, Weaver). But while this makes sense for this type of houses, or for houses from the Neck (Boggs, Myre), it doesn't makes sense for other lordly houses included in the "Other Houses" category. 

In the Reach, for example, you find there old and noble houses like Ball, Fossoway, Webber, Graceford. Some of them, like the Fossoways, are quite powerful ones. In the North you can also find the likes of House Stout there.

In my opinion, it doesn't make much sense to keep those kind of lordly houses there, and I would keep the category for the ones I meantioned before. But again, I'm not sure what the criteria are to sort them out and I would love to know more.

 

Thanks!

[Nittanian]

The Citadel does not differentiate between types of houses. We know that some of them are sworn to higher lords (like Forrester to Glover and Stout to Dustin), but I'm not sure how to present that since GRRM hasn't gone into much detail concerning hierarchy and ranks.

I tried a merger of "Other" into "Nobles" with the northern houses template at the Sandbox. I changed the great house from Bolton (end of ADWD) to Stark (beginning of AGOT), since Ran wants to avoid up-front spoilers (which I agree with). I also tested the same with the riverlands template, making the Tullys the original great house and having future houses in a New Houses field.

I have also noticed that wiki users can be misled by how information is presented in dedicated house templates. For instance, House Marsh states they are sworn to House Bolton, but that is only the case as of ADWD. Some fans believe the Lockes are sworn to the Dreadfort since the TV character Locke is a Bolton man, and this belief is bolstered by the wiki template saying they are sworn to the Boltons.

Again at the Sandbox, I tested showing "House Stark (AGOT), House Bolton (ADWD)" in the house infobox. This allows us to show the start of the series (AGOT) as well as the current situation (end of ADWD). Alternatively, we could have "House Stark (AGOT), House Bolton (ASOS)", since the Boltons are rewarded with the north near the end of ASOS.

Here is a similar test with House Roote showing "House Tully (AGOT), House Baelish (ADWD)". The Iron Throne grants the riverlands to Littlefinger in ACOK but it's unclear when their loyalty changes. They participate in the siege of Riverrun in AFFC, but presumably they only bend the knee after the Red Wedding in ASOS. Thoughts?

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 2016/02/02 at 8:27 PM, Nittanian said:

The Citadel does not differentiate between types of houses. We know that some of them are sworn to higher lords (like Forrester to Glover and Stout to Dustin), but I'm not sure how to present that since GRRM hasn't gone into much detail concerning hierarchy and ranks.

I tried a merger of "Other" into "Nobles" with the northern houses template at the Sandbox. I changed the great house from Bolton (end of ADWD) to Stark (beginning of AGOT), since Ran wants to avoid up-front spoilers (which I agree with). I also tested the same with the riverlands template, making the Tullys the original great house and having future houses in a New Houses field.

I have also noticed that wiki users can be misled by how information is presented in dedicated house templates. For instance, House Marsh states they are sworn to House Bolton, but that is only the case as of ADWD. Some fans believe the Lockes are sworn to the Dreadfort since the TV character Locke is a Bolton man, and this belief is bolstered by the wiki template saying they are sworn to the Boltons.

 

House Locke is clearly not sworn to House Bolton. Manderly states that Oldcastle takes their lead from White Harbor. Even so, he clearly distinguishes between the petty lords sworn to House Manderly, and the greater lords who would follow his lead, but who are obviously not sworn to him, such as House Flint of Widow's Watch and House Locke of Oldcastle. In any case, this makes it clear that House Locke is certainly not sworn to the Dreadfort.

[Nittanian]

I mean that a wiki reader (as opposed to an editor) can be misled because the current Locke and Marsh entries state their overlords are Bolton. Over the years house templates have been changed to show liege lords as of the end of ADWD, for instance Hornwood and Flint/WW in 2011, Lychester in 2012, Roote in 2015, etc. This hasn't been consistently used, as Shawney and Wayn for instance still show Tully instead of Baelish.

My suggestion is to provide greater detail regarding political changes within the templates, rather than simply stating Bolton or Baelish. We could list the start and "current" situations (Starks are the wardens at the start of AGOT and Boltons are wardens as of the end of ADWD), with later updates for TWOW and ADOS as they are published. Alternatively, we could list political changes by book, if applicable. The Tullys are the lieges of the river lords in AGOT, Baelish is granted the riverlands in ACOK, the Tullys are attainted in ASOS and most river lords surrender after the RW, etc. Maybe something like: Tully (AGOT), Tully/Baelish (ACOK), Baelish (ASOS) ...

[Gonzalo]

I added the "other houses" for those surnames that so, far haven't been mentioned to have a seat or lands and are essentially smallfolk in all but name