Baratheon and Lannister, Who is The More Likely To Lose Great House Title ?

[DigUpHerBones]

Since when fighting against a tyrant is usurping?

 since the tyrant was the rightful King...

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Baratheons. Even if the main branch of Lannisters all die out, there are still a lot of lesser branch Lannisters to carry on the name. Baratheon only have Stannis and Shireen, unless they were to legitimise some of Robert's bastards. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 since the tyrant was the rightful King...

How is he rightfull? Because his ancestors basically enslaved everyone while using WMD to kill he has the right to kill innosent people because he wanted it?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Shireen ever gets any titles, she obviously takes her husbands name after marriage.

How is that obvious? We have examples, like Arwyn Oakheart, Anya Waynwood and Lyessa Flint, of high born Ladies keeping their name and not taking their husbands. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Pretty sure he will take the Arryn name rather than take the name Hardyng and allow some other Arryn challenge him to be Lord of the Vale, a position held by someone called Arryn for thousands of years.

It seems he is already promoting his Arryn connections over Hardyng.

It was only then that she took note of his heraldry. Though his surcoat and horse trappings were patterned in the red-and-white diamonds of House Hardyng, his shield was quartered. The arms of Hardyng and Waynwood were displayed in the first and third quarters, respectively, but in the second and fourth quarters he bore the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky blue and cream. Sweetrobin will not like that.

 

 

nice quote. 

That still doesn't sway me though he is still wearing the Hardyng sigil on his standard just as much as he is wearing the Arryn. Not only did sweetrobin say earlier that he knows harry wants his title and castle but being a bratty ruler, Sweetrobin  not liking that harry affiliates himself with the Arryn side of his blood would upset him.

 

A book example joff wears the lion and stag on his standard split 50/50 but he gets his claim through his "father". Through the stag.

 

In the real would vassal lords tiered their standards like this all the time expecially so at the Ducal level. Even when they didn't have blood ties like harry. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

nice quote. 

That still doesn't sway me though he is still wearing the Hardyng sigil on his standard just as much as he is wearing the Arryn. Not only did sweetrobin say earlier that he knows harry wants his title and castle but being a bratty ruler, Sweetrobin  not liking that harry affiliates himself with the Arryn side of his blood would upset him.

 

A book example joff wears the lion and stag on his standard split 50/50 but he gets his claim through his "father". Through the stag.

 

In the real would vassal lords tiered their standards like this all the time expecially so at the Ducal level. Even when they didn't have blood ties like harry. 

No, it is 50% Arryn, 25% Hardyng, 25% Waynwood. Despite his father being a Hardyng, his mother and Grandfather being Waynwods (and his other Grandparents being something else) his sigil is mostly represented by his Grandmothers family. It is pretty clear he is promoting himself as an Arryn.

 

And it is not surprising. He grew up under the care of Lady Waynwood, her children have all taken her name rather than her husbands. I doubt Harry sees any shame in that.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

But why would he? 

His position of being lord of the Vale will come from his Arryn blood why would the Vale lords take command from someone named Hardyne? 

 

 

he would because that's his name just like Lancaster and York didn't change their name to Plantagent or how Henry Tudor didn't take on Lancaster which is where his claim comes from

[thelittledragonthatcould]

he would because that's his name just like Lancaster and York didn't change their name to Plantagent or how Henry Tudor didn't take on Lancaster which is where his claim comes from

Arryn have been the rulers of the Vale for thousands of years. The Plantagents, Lacaster and Yorks reigns are a drop in the ocean in comparison. Somehow I doubt he will be the first ever ruler to inherit from a female Arryn in those thousands of years.

 

The name is synonymous with rule in the Vale, he would be creating a rod for both himself and his children by keeping the name Hardyng when there are many other Arryns still living.

 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

No, it is 50% Arryn, 25% Hardyng, 25% Waynwood. Despite his father being a Hardyng, his mother and Grandfather being Waynwods (and his other Grandparents being something else) his sigil is mostly represented by his Grandmothers family. It is pretty clear he is promoting himself as an Arryn.

 

And it is not surprising. He grew up under the care of Lady Waynwood, her children have all taken her name rather than her husbands. I doubt Harry sees any shame in that.

Ahh you're right I should have read that more carefully. However isn't that only his shield? But his horse and surcoat bares the Hardyng?

Either way you make a good argument. However, I'm a stubborn mule and my gut is telling me he will keep the Hardyng name.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I think a Baratheon bastard will be legitimized (probably Edric) and continue Baratheon line.I doubt they will be stripped of their title.I think a Lannister cousin will receive the title (after Tytos's line is extinct).

[Veloknight]

Definitely Baratheon. All that the Lannisters need do is not be all killed and not be completely deposed. Meanwhile, Stannis is in a very precarious position, Shireen does not seem to have much of a future, and Edric Storm needs legitimization.

[John Doe]

Edric can still be legitimized.

But the Lannisters have taken the lands of their most powerful rivals for themselves and are married to some of the most powerful western houses, it's unlikely they loose their titles sooner than the Baratheons.

[redtree]

Edric can still be legitimized.

But the Lannisters have taken the lands of their most powerful rivals for themselves and are married to some of the most powerful western houses, it's unlikely they loose their titles sooner than the Baratheons.

Unlikely to extinct yes but with what Tywin have done, killing the prince and princess, fAegon can downgrade them even as far as taking their noble status. Perhaps Tyrion can influence Dany but that's a bit stretching it

[John Doe]

Who knows who will get to keep the throne, and it' possible Jaime and/or Tyrion will redeem their house in the eyes of the new ruler.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Tommen and Stannis are the last of their line. It's over for the usurper Baratheons. The Lannister family is huge, and that's not including the Lannisport Lannisters.

[Lointain]

Baratheon.

Lannisters appear to be the most resilient of the Great Houses, and the ones that are more time in the top (leading their region), uninterrupted, since millenia, while other houses are younger or, despite being very, very ancient like the Lannisters, are powerless.

 

[Veloknight]

A question on Edric Storm: why do we think he'd be legitimized? He's a threat to literally *all* likely monarchs if he is.

After all, he had Roberts look, and given the rumors about the Lannisters they would never legitimize him. Stannis is a brother, which means Edric could make an argument that as a son he should come first. Shireen is a girl, a child, and had Greyscale, while Edric is a charismatic man. Dany, Jon, and Aegon are from a dynasty that has competing claims with the Baratheons, and by making him one they'd be keeping the Baratheons alive. Euron is really the only one with anything to gain.

I think the best Edric can hope for is a marriage to the new Stormlander ruling house to cement the new house's claims.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Baratheons as there is only Stannis and Shireen, who may be baren as a potential, un-detected yet side effect from her bout in toddlerhood with Greyscale. Stannis is not going to further his line with Shadow babies. So, he could write a legitimization for Edric Storm and that would help but he is not likely to do that, but he might in desperation. The Lannisters have Tyrion who will cut a deal here and there because he wants Casterly Rock so damn bad, he cannot see straight.

[Lord Lannister]

Eh, honestly the best chance for "House Baratheon" to maintain it's any position lies with Tommen and Myrcellla. Stannis seems bound to go down fighting, he's like Napoleon at Waterloo, even if he wins, there's another all or nothing battle immediately following it. The only other hope would seem to be if Shireen is stashed somewhere safe and can come to maturity and the final victor is inclined to put a figurehead in the Stormlands. Which seems unlikely given the Targaryen claimants would have a vendetta against the Baratheons and the Lannisters wouldn't undermine Tommen and Myrcella's claim.

[Jankmaster]

Well, after watching the god awful tv show my hopes are down the drain mostly, but I'm guessing that the Lannisters will be cast down from their position of power. The Baratheons have been battered but like their castle their survive this storm somehow, if not through Stannis and Shireen than through one of Robert's bastards who may become pieces for ambitious nobles to play against whatever regime solidifies itself in the end.