Something about Lysa Tully

[kimim]

You still haven't explained how she betrayed her family. its not tunnel vision. Her son is rightfully more important to her than the rest of her family.

Bad parenting is a type of betrayal, and overprotecting a child is as much bad parenting as neglecting them. I'm not sure what is wrong with Robin, but his mother isn't helping by filling him with fears. She's terrified him to the point where he's afraid of his own shadow. Admittedly, his is a scary world. His own mother played a part in making it so by killing his own father.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So did the first of the first men when he decided to have children, Egg, when he forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry and so on.... Rhaegar and Lyannna 99% did not plan to hurt their families (well maybe aside of Aerys) and could not have predicted most of what happened. Which is a big difference to Lysa being Littlefinger's willing accomplice.

If they couldn't see how their elopment would hurt their families they were dumber than Victarion. 

?  I did not write anything about Lysa joining Robb, I do not understand what this part of the post is supposed to react to.  Though using the same argument I can say that:

 Did she held back forces which could have helped them?

You said that she should had sent an army with Robb which means that she should had endangered her son for Robb's sake.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Bad parenting is a type of betrayal, and overprotecting a child is as much bad parenting as neglecting them. I'm not sure what is wrong with Robin, but his mother isn't helping by filling him with fears. She's terrified him to the point where he's afraid of his own shadow. Admittedly, his is a scary world. His own mother played a part in making it so by killing his own father.

Surely Jon Arryn is as much to blame for Robins current state as his mother is. Was Jon also betraying his son?

[kimim]

Surely Jon Arryn is as much to blame for Robins current state as his mother is. Was Jon also betraying his son?

Very true. Problem is we don't see Jon Arryn interact with his son, so it's difficult to figure out what kind of a father he was. Lysa is hyper-protective and possessive, so it's doubtful if she would have allowed him any say at all. When he tries to get the kid sent off for fostering, she kills him.

[Ice Turtle]

If they couldn't see how their elopment would hurt their families they were dumber than Victarion. 

 

 

You said that she should had sent an army with Robb which means that she should had endangered her son for Robb's sake.

If you cut your finger and if you lose a leg in accident in both cases you are hurt. Still it is not the same. If Brandon did not ride to king's landing the rebellion would not happen, if Aerys did not kill Rickard and Brandon, the rebellion would not happen. Those were the people who to much greater extend could have predicted consequences of their actions. 

My mistake. Lysa joining or not joining the war is minor point for me. I have much bigger problem with what she did than with what she did not do. Still she did not mind endangering her son with Tyrion's trial so it is very questionable if her action's were due being protective mother or IMO more likely due to listening to Littlefingers instructions.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If you cut your finger and if you lose a leg in accident in both cases you are hurt. Still it is not the same. If Brandon did not ride to king's landing the rebellion would not happen, if Aerys did not kill Rickard and Brandon, the rebellion would not happen. Those were the people who to much greater extend could have predicted consequences of their actions. 

My mistake. Lysa joining or not joining the war is minor point for me. I have much bigger problem with what she did than with what she did not do. Still she did not mind endangering her son with Tyrion's trial so it is very questionable if her action's were due being protective mother or IMO more likely due to listening to Littlefingers instructions.

Utter . If Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't eloped Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go to KL. So, Rhaegar and Lyanna started a chain of reaction which ended up at the war. The way I see it it's idiotic for anyone to believe that the elopment would had ended to anything less than a war.

Cat caused Robin's being in danger during Tyrion's trial since she was the one to bring Tyrion to the Eyrie not Lysa.

[WSmith84]

Considering she murdered her husband, raped LF, deliberately attempted to provoke something between her family and the Lannisters and then attempted to execute a man for a crime she knew he was innocent of, Lysa comes out very low on the morality scale. And if she wanted to avoid the wrath of Tywin Lannister against her, the Tullys or her son, executing his son is a stupid way to go about it.

[Ice Turtle]

Utter . If Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't eloped Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go to KL. So, Rhaegar and Lyanna started a chain of reaction which ended up at the war. The way I see it it's idiotic for anyone to believe that the elopment would had ended to anything less than a war.

Cat caused Robin's being in danger during Tyrion's trial since she was the one to bring Tyrion to the Eyrie not Lysa.

Emoticons and expressive words never fail to make arguments more convincing....

So Brandon lacked free will and mental capability to understand that if he rides into King's Landing with few men and openly threatens to kill the crown prince it will end either with his imprisonment or death? IMO that was something which was much more predictable than improbable chain of events witch ended with Robert's Rebellion.

Maybe we simply disagree about some rather fundamental points about guilt and responsibility for the actions of other people. For me starting a chain of evens =/= being responsible for everything that follows. In 1914 Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand which led directly to the First World War. Do you really believe that he is the man most responsible for it?

About Cat: yes she did capture Tyrion, which wasn't especially good decision, but Lysa was still the one who tried to kill him publicly.  Do you believe that if Bronn did not interfere and Tyrion was sent out trough the Moon Door on Lysa's order Tywin would ignore it because it was Cat who took Tyrion hostage first?

 

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

but this made Lysa even more brave and love-devoted. It is very easy to love a popular crown prince ( every maid and many boys in 7k probably loved rhaegar) but it is not common love a man who is very lower born than you. This means she loved himself. 

And LF was not a married man like rhaegar. So less scandal. 

Lysa pretty much raped Peter.  You call that love, I call it obsession.  Crazed obsession.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lysa pretty much raped Peter.  You call that love, I call it obsession.  Crazed obsession.

No she didn't. It would have been rape if she knew that Littlefinger thought she was Cat before they had sex, not after.

"He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten."

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

No she didn't. It would have been rape if she knew that Littlefinger thought she was Cat before they had sex, not after.

"He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten."

I think she did know.  Lysa appears to have lived in a delusional state of denial for almost her whole life.  Petyr used her mental state to his advantage.  I still think Lysa took advantage of him.  I'm fine with you disagreeing with me.  It does not change my opinion one whit.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I think she did know.  Lysa appears to have lived in a delusional state of denial for almost her whole life.  Petyr used her mental state to his advantage.  I still think Lysa took advantage of him.  I'm fine with you disagreeing with me.  It does not change my opinion one whit.

Of course you don't have to change your opinion, but the books make it seem that she did not know so it can not really be considered rape.

 

I get why people want to say it was though, they can't accept that characters are not black and white so characters deemed to be negative get accused of things they did not do so it is easier to hate them and call them evil. So drunk teenage Lysa gets accused of being a rapist to make it easier to vilify her. She is not that smart as an adult, somehow I have my doubts that inebriated younger Lysa could have planned something like that.

[Delight]

Wouldn't Lysa have to at least some positive personality traits to be as anything resembling a morally grey character? She may not be evil, but she's one of the most selfish characters in this series. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Wouldn't Lysa have to at least some positive personality traits to be as anything resembling a morally grey character? She may not be evil, but she's one of the most selfish characters in this series. 

When her father demanded that she abort her unborn baby so she would remain a prize candidate for his political needs she did so, when her father made her marry a man old enough to be her grandfather she did so. Not only was Jon considerably older than her he had failed to produce a child from his first two marriages and no known bastards. She was being forced into a marriage that would likely not result in any children. Noble women were taught that their main obligation was to reproduce and Hoster was forcing her into a marriage that seemed unlikely to do so. So, not all her actions have been selfish and she has certainly done her duty to the Tullys.

 

When it comes to not helping Robb, a person she has never even met, and her sister Cat, who she has barely interacted with since they were both married off, I'm not sure you can say her actions were entirely selfish. Her first responsibility is to her son and going off to war against the Crown endangers both his life and his inheritance. Let us not forget that Cat herself counselled peace both near the start and towards the end of the war and both times Robb refused down to his need for vengeance. Lysa was just taking the course of action that Cat would have done so had she not ceded power to her son.

And to be morally grey you have to be human, which Lysa, while slightly crazed and paranoid, quite clearly is. Her actions have left the Vale as one of the strongest realms after the war and one of the few kingdoms equipped to survive a long winter (sans White Walkers).

[Delight]

Hoster forced her to abort her child, so the choice ultimately wasn't hers to make. The same is true with the marriage to Jon Arryn. Like most women in Westeros she didn't have a choice whatsoever, so she really couldn't have made much of a selfless act in the matter since refusal, short of committing suicide, was impossible in the first. 

Also, lets not forget that the War of Five Kings might not have even happened in the first if Lysa didn't poison Jon Arryn and manipulate her family into believing that the Lannisters were responsible. Sure she was being used by Littlefinger but she was smart enough to understand that she was essentially ensuring that a war would occur and subsequently cost the lives of tens of thousands. Furthermore, if was Lysa was a noble women how understood her role in society she would have allowed her son to be fostered like any other noble child instead of killing her husband.

Lysa may not be evil and she is human, but her actions are in my mind black and not grey in that almost everything she's done has been destructive to Westeros and the people around her.

 

[YunoGasai]

Lysa as a child had always been jealous of her older sis Catelyn. Just as Arya always felt jealous of Sansa.

[redtree]

Lysa as a child had always been jealous of her older sis Catelyn. Just as Arya always felt jealous of Sansa.

Very different case, Lysa wanted what Catelyn had, engagement with heir to great lord, LF's love.
Arya doesn't want what Sansa wanted which were queenship, gave birth to prince and princes, etc. Arya hated KL while she was there while Sansa loved it

[melx]

When we met lysa, she appeared to be an almost evil woman. 

She betrayed and murdered her husband, threatened sansa's life, and super jealous and also kind of weird. 

Lysa is not evil."appearance" is due to "stark" povs ("hate thing" is very common those chapters)

her father killed her child & sold her to disgusting old man,reason for killing that man was to keep her child(very understandable knowing what happened to her first child)

as for Sansa treatment it's not so much different  from usurper actions:"love of her life" is hers and if somebody try to take it away will die.

[Daeron Velar]

I would not call Lysa romantic. From what we've read and seen, she is damn right demented. I honestly don't think she ever knew what love was. Furthermore I do not think she would be remembered as a beautiful maid because maids are technically virgins and being impregnated and having sex with LF did not make her a maid any longer. Didn't her father say that she got spoiled or ldeflowered and it was a miracle that Lord Arryn took her in even if she was not a maid anymore because he wanted someone younger that could be arguable fertile to have heirs. She could've been free spirited when she was younger but that does not excuse her actions caused in adult hood that led to terrible repercussions. I believe neither Sansa or Lyanna would ever commit such atrocities. I think she was an awful person with some major psychological problems. I was happy when she was murdered

[Black_Brother]

There's nothing suggesting that Lyanna was " brave for love and devoted to love". She was brave for sure, but seems that her love are for horses and sword battle. All comparisons until now suggests she was more like Arya than Sansa.