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Tyrell VS Tully pre-RR

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Catelyn was betrothed to Northern heir Brandon and Lysa was about to be betrothed to Westerland's heir Jaime. They were in the same generation as Mina and Jana Tyrell, also daughters of great house. Social standing wise they are about the same,bunch of upjumped who got raised by Aegon but Tyrell is much much richer.
Reach's number of bannerman is much larger than Riverlands, they have one of the biggest city and the famous wine central Arbor in their area and their manpower can easily double the Riverland, their land is the most fertile too. Also the status of Warden of The South and Citadel is in the Reach. How came the Tully got a better marriage deal ? Why didn't Olenna work a better pact ?

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First, Mina was engaged and then married to Lord Paxter Redwyne, who is very, very high on social ladder. House Redwyne is very rich and powerful. Furthermore, Tyrells always had a bit strange situation with numerous powerful bannermen from Hightowers, Redwynes to Florents, Fossoways and Tarlys. Marriages were used to create bonds with the Houses in order to secure the position. That is why marrying daughter to Lord of Arbor was smart. She married her son with Hightower and another daughter and grandson to Fossoways. Basically, Tyrells tied themselves to three Houses that could challenge them. And, having Boltons and Freys in mind, that was not so bad idea.

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It is better for the Tyrells to be supported by the Redwynes and Hightowers than the far away Starks and Arryns. They share the same religion both are likely richer than the Starks and Arryns and both were previously Kings.

 

For Hoster marrying his daughters to his neighbouring kingdoms would have been an advantage but the distance between the Reach and the North would have meant it was not a worthwhile alliance in comparison.

 

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Tyrells even more than the other Houses are in need of strong bonds with their bannermen.

:agree:

 

Besides, the tullys got great marriages only due to Rickard's Southron ambitions.

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First, Mina was engaged and then married to Lord Paxter Redwyne, who is very, very high on social ladder. House Redwyne is very rich and powerful. Furthermore, Tyrells always had a bit strange situation with numerous powerful bannermen from Hightowers, Redwynes to Florents, Fossoways and Tarlys. Marriages were used to create bonds with the Houses in order to secure the position. That is why marrying daughter to Lord of Arbor was smart. She married her son with Hightower and another daughter and grandson to Fossoways. Basically, Tyrells tied themselves to three Houses that could challenge them. And, having Boltons and Freys in mind, that was not so bad idea.

Mina's marriage makes sense but Jana's, not so much. She's the older sister yet she's marriage to a ser of knightly house, branch of small house. Plus Mace is already wedded to Alerie, both Hightower and Redwyne are the strongest bannerman and that should be enough. Why not make a match to other great house when their value were higher than Cat/Lysa ? 

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Mina's marriage makes sense but Jana's, not so much. She's the older sister yet she's marriage to a ser of knightly house, branch of small house. Plus Mace is already wedded to Alerie, both Hightower and Redwyne are the strongest bannerman and that should be enough. Why not make a match to other great house when their value were higher than Cat/Lysa ? 

Janna is the younger sister. In the appendices she is always listed after Mina. There is a whole host reasonable reasons why Janna was married to Lord Fossoway that we are not privy to know.

 

And lets face facts, the Tyrells marriage alliances have worked out far better than the Tullys did.

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Catelyn was betrothed to Northern heir Brandon and Lysa was about to be betrothed to Westerland's heir Jaime. They were in the same generation as Mina and Jana Tyrell, also daughters of great house. Social standing wise they are about the same,bunch of upjumped who got raised by Aegon but Tyrell is much much richer.
Reach's number of bannerman is much larger than Riverlands, they have one of the biggest city and the famous wine central Arbor in their area and their manpower can easily double the Riverland, their land is the most fertile too. Also the status of Warden of The South and Citadel is in the Reach. How came the Tully got a better marriage deal ? Why didn't Olenna work a better pact ?

Because House Tully is much higher on social ladder, they are a noble house for thousand of years, house Tyrel was nothing but a glorified serverant two hundered years ago, you can look back the history, in the entire Targaryn reign, there was no Tyrels be a member of small concuil, there was no marriage between House Tyrel and the royal house, and I can not even recall there was any marriage between House Tyrell and house of Lord paramount of other region

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Because House Tully is much higher on social ladder, they are a noble house for thousand of years, house Tyrel was nothing but a glorified serverant two hundered years ago, you can look back the history, in the entire Targaryn reign, there was no Tyrels be a member of small concuil, there was no marriage between House Tyrel and the royal house, and I can not even recall there was any marriage between House Tyrell and house of Lord paramount of other region

Tyrells are infinitely richer than Tullys, and not to mention they command a region that can summon 100 000 men. In comparison, Riverlands can summon 1/3 or 1/4 of that. And while Tyrells were "servants", Tullys were also in no way Kingly house or some powerful force. They ascended to power the same year Tyrells did.

 

Mina's marriage makes sense but Jana's, not so much. She's the older sister yet she's marriage to a ser of knightly house, branch of small house. Plus Mace is already wedded to Alerie, both Hightower and Redwyne are the strongest bannerman and that should be enough. Why not make a match to other great house when their value were higher than Cat/Lysa ? 

The thing is that age might not be suitable. Mace is in his forties, while Mina by the time of AGOT has already two grown-up sons, probably indicating that she was married before Jaime or even Brandon came to the age for marriage. Never forget that things are never that simple. Just look at Stannis. He was a brother to the King, member of Small Council and yet he married Florent. Marriages between High Houses are not that often and sometimes they raise significant doubt.

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Because House Tully is much higher on social ladder, they are a noble house for thousand of years, house Tyrel was nothing but a glorified serverant two hundered years ago, you can look back the history, in the entire Targaryn reign, there was no Tyrels be a member of small concuil, there was no marriage between House Tyrel and the royal house, and I can not even recall there was any marriage between House Tyrell and house of Lord paramount of other region

Tyrell isn't so bad, they can traced back their line to the Andal Invasion time and had plenty of marriages to house Greenhand so they did have royal blood while Tully, not so much. And there's only 1 Tully in Targaryen reign, it's one of the Sesame Street Tully, a ser who betrayed his grandfather's wish to defend Aegon 2 and fought for Rhaenyra instead. 

Personally i choose medium-aged house but madly wealthy and powerful rather than alliance with old house but half even a third of the so called servant house. When push comes to shove, money and power always win

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Tyrells are infinitely richer than Tullys, and not to mention they command a region that can summon 100 000 men. In comparison, Riverlands can summon 1/3 or 1/4 of that. And while Tyrells were "servants", Tullys were also in no way Kingly house or some powerful force. They ascended to power the same year Tyrells did.

While Tyrells were "servants", Tullys, while were not kings, were still among the most powerfull noble house in the Riverland, Yes, now Tyrells were richer and more powefull than Tullys (though their controll of other Reach noble houses ought to be marked by a "?"), but that do not automatically conver to social status.

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While Tyrells were "servants", Tullys, while were not kings, were still among the most powerfull noble house in the Riverland, Yes, now Tyrells were richer and more powefull than Tullys (though their controll of other Reach noble houses ought to be marked by a "?"), but that do not automatically conver to social status.

The history of Tullys and Tyrells is well known. The Tyrells weren't servants per se, they were stewards and they have quite the long history. They are descendants of the Gardeners and they are incredibly rich. Yes, their reign over the Reach is questionable, but let we not pretend Tullys had the utter control over their bannermen. In just 20 years, some of their bannermen revolted against them two times. And given how fragile Riverlands have always been, it is not beyond questioning whether their power over Riverlands is higher than Tyrells' over Reach.

Socially speaking, they are equal. The fact that Tullys were forming alliances with North and Westerlands (who would know whether it wasn't all the plan to form a block to support Rhaegar against Aerys) doesn't mean that they were held in higher regard than Tyrells. 

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The history of Tullys and Tyrells is well known. The Tyrells weren't servants per se, they were stewards and they have quite the long history. They are descendants of the Gardeners and they are incredibly rich.

  Of course Tyrells were not really servants, they were steards of Gardeners, that was why I call them "glorified serverants", they only beame rich after Targaryns took over, and their fortune was from Gardeners, before that they did not even own their own lands. On the other hand, Tully did became Lord paramount of the Riverland after they throwed their bet to Targaryns, but before that, they were an acient noble house and one of the most powerful Lords in the Riverland, so there was a difference, and hence Tyrells are inferior to Tullys in social status, and this is true despite the fact that now Tyrells are richer and more powefull thanTully

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The Tullys emerged out of the Andal vs First Men war for control over the present day Riverlands. We're told that they're First Men in origin. However the first Tully of history was essentially the equivalent of a Hedge Knight in service to the First Man King: Tristifer IV (the same person whose tomb Robb & Catelyn stop at while journeying to the Twins for Edmure's wedding). Edmure Tully (the first Tully) fought for Tristifer in many battles, after Tristifer fell, Edmure bent the knee to the Andal invader: King Armistead Vance.

Conveniently Edmure's son, Axel, is subsequently rewarded by the Vance Kings (who were Andals) for the family's service, with the land upon which they built Riverrun. From there they grew fat and rich eventually surpassing the Vances in influence in being the second most powerful family in the region by being the most influential family of the Western Riverlands--getting rich through war with the Kings of the Rock.

It makes one wonder that the Vances rewarded the Tullys so handsomely with the land that would become Riverrun, and the fact that before going to the Red Wedding that Robb and Catelyn stop at Tristifer's grave, makes me wonder if the Tullys themselves didn't betray the Mudds, for which they were richly rewarded by the Vances, just like they were about to be betrayed by the Freys who'd be richly rewarded with Riverrun themselves.

House Tully did have a history of betraying whatever faction that they had been previously aligned to--it's how they climbed up the social ladder after all, it seems, by always picking the winning side.

So the Tullys had their own land for a few thousand years. The Tyrells were landless until the Gardeners died off and the Tyrells took over the castle--a bit of a big jump IMO.

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As for marriages. Hoster thought he could secure his realm by marrying powerful alliances outside of the Riverlands to ensure that if there ever was danger for his house--all that needed to happen was for those powerful neighbors to come down and rescue. Marrying the Lord Paramounts of the other Kingdoms who border your own (whoever stated that Winterfell is far away from Riverrun seems to have forgotten that the North is the northern border of the Riverlands--and theoretically if House Frey gets uppity, the Starks are in charge of House Frey's long time rivals: the Crannogmen; to put House Frey in check) is the best way to ensure you get a whole army coming down to add to whatever forces you or your descendants can muster.

Due to Hoster's planning, he got the Northern army to stay in the Riverlands during the War of the Five Kings, because he ensured that his grandson would be Lord of Winterfell. For no other reason would Robb have stayed in the south like he did. Had Hoster not poisoned the well with Lysa (in both sense of the terms) he would've had the Lord of the Eyrie also being a grandson (say one of those other miscarriages actually lived) leading the Vale army to assist his cousin in defense of dear old Grandpa. And heck, in his original plan it had been having a grandson as Lord of Casterly Rock rather than the Eyrie, which makes even more sense from a defensive POV.

In an ideal world, none of Hoster's bannermen would even think of making a fuss in that situation--not when you are guaranteed to have two Kingdoms to come to your lord's defense.

As for a Reach marriage--Hoster constantly tried to get his brother Brynden to marry the Reach (Bethany Redwyne as a potential bride pops into my head) but it never took.

As for Jana, we're told that all of Mace's sisters are older than him, so it's likely that unless one of Hoster's first sons had lived, that a potential marriage there was more likely nixed by Brynden.

Edmure's far too young to marry to Jana (he's young enough to be Jana's son, more likely). And likely marrying her to a Knightly house might have been sending a message to the main branch of the Fossoway family that unless they behaved. Marriage can make allies, but it can also warn or threaten others.

The best possible marriage would have been for Catelyn to marry Mace if they were going to marry a Tyrell--but most likely the offer was turned down in lieu of the arrangement with the Hightowers which makes much more sense from the Tyrell perspective.

The only marriage offer I don't understand is Hoster asking the Martells for Arianne's hand for Edmure. That's the one that's a headscratcher.

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Because of Southern Ambitions

  • Jon Arryn takes on Ned and Robert as wards, bringing the North, Vale, and Stormlands into alliance
  • Robert marries Lyanna, cementing the North and Stormland alliance
  • Brandon marries Catelyn, bringing the Riverlands into the North/Vale/Stormland alliance
  • Lysa marries Jaime, bringing the Westerlands into the North/Vale/Stormland/Riverland alliance

Now look at a map. 5 kingdoms are suddenly bound together, pretty much surrounding King's Landing, with the only open area not bound by this alliance being the Reach (seeing as Dorne is separated by the Red Mountains). If these 5 kingdoms decide to march on King's Landing, they pretty much can't be stopped.

  • The Stormlands can plug the Prince's Pass and Boneway, and now Dorne can't aid King's Landing. Not to mention they can march on the capital themselves while still blocking the passes will naturally make it easy for them to defend the Dornish from getting through
  • The Westerlands and the Riverlands can block the Reach and keep them from aiding King's Landing (if the Reach even bothers to enter the fray)
  • The North and the Vale can march virtually unopposed straight to the capital

If Southern Ambitions is real of course they'd prefer to have the Reach on their side, but they don't even need them with the alliances already in place

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The Tullys are higher on the social latter then the Tyrells period it goes by blood and the older the better the Tullys might not have been kings or have as much money but they are more NOBLE, they were always NOBLE the Tyrells are stewards sitting in high garden who by rights should go to either a Florent or Rowan which is why there bannerman aren't as pro Tyrell as one might think.

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The Tullys are higher on the social latter then the Tyrells period it goes by blood and the older the better the Tullys might not have been kings or have as much money but they are more NOBLE, they were always NOBLE the Tyrells are stewards sitting in high garden who by rights should go to either a Florent or Rowan which is why there bannerman aren't as pro Tyrell as one might think.

It does not just go by blood. This argument might have been relevant a few centuries ago but not so much now. Blood is certainly important, but the Tyrells have been been Wardens of the South and the rulers of the Reach for 300 years now.  They are richer and more powerful; these are also attributes that count, as well as blood, and they also have a stronger grasp on their realm and their vassals than the Tullys have on theirs.

 

Had Egg been able to control his children then the current generation of Tyrells would all have Targ blood as Luthor Tyrell was supposed to marry Aegons oldest daughter.

 

At the start of the series the Tyrells are undoubtedly the more prestigious family.

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The Tullys are higher on the social latter then the Tyrells period it goes by blood and the older the better the Tullys might not have been kings or have as much money but they are more NOBLE, they were always NOBLE the Tyrells are stewards sitting in high garden who by rights should go to either a Florent or Rowan which is why there bannerman aren't as pro Tyrell as one might think.

Except the Tyrells technically have being the rulers of their region far longer than the Tullys have. The Tyrells were the Stewards under the Gardener kings so they would have been very active in running the Reach from its capital when it was its own kingdom while the Tullys were only elevated to LP because they were on top of Aegon's list. The Tullys had to create their own institutions of running the Riverlands completely from scratch, especially since the Targs had burnt down the capital of the Riverlands at that time. The Tyrells however no longer had experience in the running of the Reach but inherited all of the political infrastructure and institutions developed under the Gardener kings.

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