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Is Robb Stark A Coward ?

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It's the same reason that Tywin was heading to the Westerlands when Stannis was laying siege to Storms End .

It is actually not. Tywin was heading for Robb wherever he was, he had time to spare and wanted to use that to finish Robb. Had Robb been in Riverrun or Pinkmaiden he would have headed there instead.

 

 The Riverlands are not helpless and he is depending on them to hold onto their castles long enough for him to retake the north.

Sure, it just seems pretty unlikely that they would. Not impossible but the odds heavily against them.

Frankly once he gets through Moat Calin how hard would it be for him to retake the north from the Iron Born? Would the Iron Born even try to hold the castles they have taken or would they run back to the Iron Islands when Robb comes to attack them with 5 to 10 thousand men?

Six months minimum to retake Moat Cailin, Winterfell and Deepwood Motte while repairing and resupplying what they need to travel back South. And that is if he things go well

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It is actually not. Tywin was heading for Robb wherever he was, he had time to spare and wanted to use that to finish Robb. Had Robb been in Riverrun or Pinkmaiden he would have headed there instead.

 

Did he have time to spare? He had no idea how long Stannis would be laying siege to Strorms End , it could be a day, a week , a month or even a year. He needed Robb out of the Westerlands so he could have access to those resources , he had no idea how long the war would last and Robb was cutting him off from all the resources and manpower of the Westerlands. And Frankly I have no idea how you can be so positive that Tywin would have gone after Robb if Robb was in Riverrun . After Robb crushed Jamie Tywin could have attacked Robb but instead he went to Harrenhall for safety . Why would he suddenly attack Robb now if Robb had returned to  Riverrun after crushing Stafford? Not to mention that Robb with the Riverlords and Roose Bolton's men would probably have outnumbered Tywin so Tywin attacking them at Riverrun may not have worked in his favor.  

Sure, it just seems pretty unlikely that they would. Not impossible but the odds heavily against them.

Six months minimum to retake Moat Cailin, Winterfell and Deepwood Motte while repairing and resupplying what they need to travel back South. And that is if he things go well

The odds were heavily against Tywin beating Renly and the Tyrells but he won that so odds aren't always right and frankly what other choice did he have? 

 

 

 

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Did he have time to spare? He had no idea how long Stannis would be laying siege to Strorms End , it could be a day, a week , a month or even a year. He needed Robb out of the Westerlands so he could have access to those resources , he had no idea how long the war would last and Robb was cutting him off from all the resources and manpower of the Westerlands. And Frankly I have no idea how you can be so positive that Tywin would have gone after Robb if Robb was in Riverrun . After Robb crushed Jamie Tywin could have attacked Robb but instead he went to Harrenhall for safety . Why would he suddenly attack Robb now if Robb had returned to  Riverrun after crushing Stafford? Not to mention that Robb with the Riverlords and Roose Bolton's men would probably have outnumbered Tywin so Tywin attacking them at Riverrun may not have worked in his favor.  

The odds were heavily against Tywin beating Renly and the Tyrells but he won that so odds aren't always right and frankly what other choice did he have? 

Tywin defeats Stannis with the help of the Tyrells, and that happens not because of strategy on his part, but because of R'hllor ex machina (or Melisandre's magic, if there is no R'hllor). Without the shadow baby killing Renly, Renly would keep the Tyrells, and take KL. Unlike Stannis, Renly is a decent politician, so he might come to some kind of agreement with Robb where the northerners keep Tywin busy elsewhere while Renly consolidates hold on KL.

Martin said that there'd be no deus ex machina, but a single magical move determines the outcome of the war of the five kings.

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Coward isn't not the term, but all the Riverlords should stab him after the "fuck the Riverlands" decision, not only the Freys. He acted like a a typical king would... Now the Mallisters, Blackwoods and such sticking with this boy King that wanted to left them to the lions, now that is absurd, Robb would never come back, Riverlands would be crushed and eventually he would bend the knee after swalling some pride (If he beat the ironborn).

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Did he have time to spare? He had no idea how long Stannis would be laying siege to Strorms End , it could be a day, a week , a month or even a year.

Calculated risk. A siege of Storms End should have taken a few months, Tyrion and Stannis, both informed men on the subject, estimate between 6months to a year.

All the available evidence suggested there was plenty of time.

He needed Robb out of the Westerlands so he could have access to those resources , he had no idea how long the war would last and Robb was cutting him off from all the resources and manpower of the Westerlands.

When is this mentioned?

Tyrion is pretty clear that he has gone to deal with Robb."Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?"

 

And Frankly I have no idea how you can be so positive that Tywin would have gone after Robb if Robb was in Riverrun .

Just going by what is written in the books and common sense. With Stannis, his main threat, occupied it gives him some time to deal with the lesser threat. He would need Robb subdued before Stannis attacked Kings Landing otherwise he could potentially be trapped between both.

That is not to say he would have been successful, but he would have had to try in that allotted free time.

After Robb crushed Jamie Tywin could have attacked Robb but instead he went to Harrenhall for safety .

You do realize that Harrenhal is closer to Riverrun than the Green Fork was, right? That Tywin actually advanced on Robb's position and it was Robb who ran off West.

Why would he suddenly attack Robb now if Robb had returned to  Riverrun after crushing Stafford?

Again, common sense.

Not to mention that Robb with the Riverlords and Roose Bolton's men would probably have outnumbered Tywin so Tywin attacking them at Riverrun may not have worked in his favor.  

That is a strong possibility. This actually begs the question why Robb went West or didnt return sooner. He had more of an advantage in the Riverlands than he did in the West.

 

The odds were heavily against Tywin beating Renly and the Tyrells but he won that so odds aren't always right and frankly what other choice did he have? 

Isnt this just what I said? That what you said about the Riverlands holding out is not impossible but the odds were strongly against them?

Unlike Tywin and the Westerland Lords the Riverlands are populated by Lords who have their own interests and place them above that of their liege Lord. Despite the odds being against Tywin his vassals stayed strong, we know that is not the case with the Riverlords. We saw how quickly the Lords Mooten, Bracken, Vance and Goodbrook surrendered or how the Whents abandoned Harrenhal without a fight or how the author tells us that Walder would put his own interests above Robbs if he was losing.

The majority of the Riverlands would have been lost before Robb even got to Winterfell. Him returning North with his entire Northern army was a huge sign.

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That is a strong possibility. This actually begs the question why Robb went West or didnt return sooner. He had more of an advantage in the Riverlands than he did in the West.

 

 

Robb going West and staying there was the best move he could make , Tywin was the one who was in desperate straights not Robb. Tywin even tells us of how Robb has him in a bad way. If Robb does not go West then Tywin would have another 20 thousand or so men joining him with Stafford from the West. 

 "Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm’s End are calling their banners."

If Renly is not killed by the shadow baby then Robb's strategy totally screws Tywin, Once Renly is killed it doesn't matter what Robb does  Tywin has the Tyrells and all the advantages. 

 

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Robb going West and staying there was the best move he could make ,

No, it really was not. Better moves would be to

  1. Swear fealty to either Renly or Stannis and add his strength to theirs
  2. After defeating Stafford returning East to put more pressure on Tywin and trying to stop him from helping Kings Landing when it is eventually attacked

Staying West was largely pointless as without the Ironborn's aide he did not have the strength to threaten the stronger settlements.

Tywin was the one who was in desperate straights not Robb.

Sure.

Tywin even tells us of how Robb has him in a bad way.

Of course, that is how war works. They are both in a bad way, the Riverlands is still exposed and lawless and Robb had left his homeland vulnerable.

 

If Robb does not go West then Tywin would have another 20 thousand or so men joining him with Stafford from the West. 

20k? You seemed to have pulled that figure out of your ass.

But sure, if Robb was striving for independence then subduing Stafford was a great idea. Hanging around for a few more months was not.

 If Renly is not killed by the shadow baby then Robb's strategy totally screws Tywin, Once Renly is killed it doesn't matter what Robb does  Tywin has the Tyrells and all the advantages. 

You know what screws Tywin more? Joining Renly and putting more pressure on him or even using his considerable amount of men and putting Harrenhal under siege so Tywin is either trapped inside when Kings Landing is attacked or takes significant casualties trying to leave.

Robb spent a pointless amount of time in the West that proved inconsequential. He had nothing to show for it but the loss of the Freys. Idiotic move, after Oxcross and the news of the Ironborn not about to join him he should have returned.

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You can criticize Robb for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. His call to take his forces back to liberate the North was the correct one. The Riverlands could hold, at least temporarily, as was proven in a Feast for Crows. He had to remove the Ironborn if he was going to have any hope of continuing the war and his plan to retake Moat Cailin was a good one and likely would have worked.

Even if this was a critical blunder it certainly wasn't cowardice. It wasn't as if he was running away from battle, quite the opposite. He was going to try and take a fortress notorious for holding southern armies at bay.

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Two ways to look at it.  The Starks lose their banners unless they protect their own turf.  The Starks set off the war and brought Lanister wrath on the riverlands.  They owe the riverlands.  But they can't do 2 without taking care of 1.

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.

20k? You seemed to have pulled that figure out of your ass.

 

that's why i said "20 thousand or so" I have no idea how many men Stafford was raising but i would assume it's going to be a significant amount considering Tywin was looking to fight Robb and Renly and Stannis. 

No, it really was not. Better moves would be to

  1. Swear fealty to either Renly or Stannis and add his strength to theirs
  2. After defeating Stafford returning East to put more pressure on Tywin and trying to stop him from helping Kings Landing when it is eventually attacked

Staying West was largely pointless as without the Ironborn's aide he did not have the strength to threaten the stronger settlements.

 

If Robb returns east then Daven Lannister can reform what remains of Stafford's army and join Tywin in the Riverlands. Robb staying in the Westerlands cuts Tywin off from his resources and his reinforcements . If there is no shadow baby then Tywin is totally screwed. If the Tyrells join Stannis or go back home then Tywin is screwed . The only scenario that screws Robb is Renly gets killed and the Tyrells join the Lannisters . In that scenario it does not matter what Robb does , he is screwed. 

 

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that's why i said "20 thousand or so" I have no idea how many men Stafford was raising but i would assume it's going to be a significant amount considering Tywin was looking to fight Robb and Renly and Stannis. 

Somehow I doubt there was another 20k from sellswords and Lannisport untrained boys. Kings Landing could not come up with a 20k army to defend its own city and there is no indication that the best trained city Pike men in Westeros left Lannisport with Stafford.

5-10k is possible but 20k seems outlandish.

If Robb returns east then Daven Lannister can reform what remains of Stafford's army and join Tywin in the Riverlands.

He could have done that anyway with Robb in the West. There are multiple exits to the Riverlands and Reach from the Westerlands. Robb can not guard every exit with 6,000 men. He may as well be back in the Riverlands and guard the fords in  that situation.

 

Robb staying in the Westerlands cuts Tywin off from his resources and his reinforcements .

Robb staying in the West also allowed Tywin to regroup and remain strong and unmolested for when Kings Landing was attacked. Robb would have been better spent back in the Riverlands actually harassing Tywin and his multiple foraging parties who was keeping him well supplied at Harrenhal.

If there is no shadow baby then Tywin is totally screwed.

As is Robb

If the Tyrells join Stannis or go back home then Tywin is screwed .

As is Robb.

 

The only scenario that screws Robb is Renly gets killed and the Tyrells join the Lannisters .

Nope, he is just as screwed in the above two scenarios. Tywin and Robb would either have to swear fealty or get beat

 

In that scenario it does not matter what Robb does , he is screwed. 

Many scenarios Robb is screwed. He should have swallowed his pride and sworn fealty to Renly, he probably should have done the same with Stannis after he married Jeyne. Or he should have listened to his mothers wise advice and made peace with the Crown.

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Somehow I doubt there was another 20k from sellswords and Lannisport untrained boys. Kings Landing could not come up with a 20k army to defend its own city and there is no indication that the best trained city Pike men in Westeros left Lannisport with Stafford.

5-10k is possible but 20k seems outlandish.

He could have done that anyway with Robb in the West. There are multiple exits to the Riverlands and Reach from the Westerlands. Robb can not guard every exit with 6,000 men. He may as well be back in the Riverlands and guard the fords in  that situation.

 

Don't forget there were also the remnants of Jaimie's army at the Golden Tooth so between what Stafford can gather from the Westerlands and the 4 or 5 thousand at the Golden Tooth you are looking at an army of at least 10 to 15 thousand or maybe more. 

As for Daven gathering an army that would be very difficult with the Northern army in the Westerlands , it's not so much getting out of the Westerlands as much as bringing the army and supplies together . Robb had pretty much cut off the Westerlands from each other , they were safe in Lannisport or Casterly Rock but any where else was in danger . Not to mention that the Northerers were pillaging all the supplies they could get there hands on. 

 

Robb staying in the West also allowed Tywin to regroup and remain strong and unmolested for when Kings Landing was attacked. Robb would have been better spent back in the Riverlands actually harassing Tywin and his multiple foraging parties who was keeping him well supplied at Harrenhal.

Tywin was the one who had to fight on multiple fronts and had to defend Kings Landing from Renly and his massive army . Time was on Robb's side and all he had to do is cut Tywin off from the west and let Renly destroy him. 

As for Robb being screwed as much as Tywin because of Renly , that only is if Robb and Renly would not be able to get along after Tywin is destroyed. Renly told Cat that he had no problem with Robb calling himself king if he gave homage to Renly and frankly why would Robb not agree to that ? he would still have the North and Riverlands and being allied with Renly and the Tyrells would be nothing but good for him.  

 

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As is Robb

As is Robb.

 

 

I agree with you that Robb should have defeated Stafford and returned to the Riverlands, but I don't think Robb is screwed at all by these situations.  I don't think Robb really wanted to be King and if Renly offers him good terms which we know he would have since he offered them to Catlyn, I don't see why Robb wouldn't feel like he won.

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Don't forget there were also the remnants of Jaimie's army at the Golden Tooth so between what Stafford can gather from the Westerlands and the 4 or 5 thousand at the Golden Tooth you are looking at an army of at least 10 to 15 thousand or maybe more. 

I was actually including them, that is why I added such a high number of 5-10k. Staffords army largely came from Lannisport, a city half the size of the Kings Landing and did not include their City Watch. There is no way that they would have supplied that many.

Prester escaped with 4K and was at the Goldent Tooth. He sent some of those men to help train the new recruits but Prester and a portion of that army remained at the Golden Tooth.

As for Daven gathering an army that would be very difficult with the Northern army in the Westerlands , it's not so much getting out of the Westerlands as much as bringing the army and supplies together .

It would not be that difficult, but I agree that as long as Robb stayed in the West they would have remained. I'm not sure that actually did Robb any good, had that army heard of him being injured he possibly could have screwed himself at the Crag.

 

Robb had pretty much cut off the Westerlands from each other ,

No, that had not happened. Have you even looked at a map of the Westerlands?

 

they were safe in Lannisport or Casterly Rock but any where else was in danger .

Simply not true. Was Crakehall, Banefort, Silverhill or Fair Isle under danger?  Was Sarsfield, Deep Den, Kayce or Feast Fires under danger? Was Wyndhall, Cornfield, Riverspring to the Golden Tooth?

No, Robb has a limited area and with 6k could not really dilute his force to do much more. Had he brought more men he may have kept more places in danger but to say the Westerlands was in danger is preposterous.

 

Not to mention that the Northerers were pillaging all the supplies they could get there hands on. 

Sure, in a limited poorly protected area.

 

Tywin was the one who had to fight on multiple fronts and had to defend Kings Landing from Renly and his massive army . Time was on Robb's side and all he had to do is cut Tywin off from the west and let Renly

As for Robb being screwed as much as Tywin because of Renly , that only is if Robb and Renly would not be able to get along after Tywin is destroyed.

Renly told Cat that he had no problem with Robb calling himself king if he gave homage to Renly and frankly why would Robb not agree to that ? he would still have the North and Riverlands and being allied with Renly and the Tyrells would be nothing but good for him.  

 

1) Time was not on Robb's side. This was partially idiotic thinking on Robb's part. He never thought that the Tyrells or anyone else would join. It is possible that some other House could have joined the Lannisters or some other Sellsword company. There was still many variables that could have played out. Robb would have been better off in the Riverlands were he could actullay do something if something unexpected happened.

2) Unless Tywin offered fealty. Both Robb and Tywin were in the same boat, neither showed any inclination to surrender but both were perfectly capable of doing so. The reason why Renly takes his sweet, sweet time is that he is happy for his enemies to fight amongst themselves and weaken each other.

3)Yet he didn't. Cat saw through that clearly and she made it clear that it was not a possibility. And do you think the Riverlands would have agree to that, paying both the Tullys, Starks and Baratheons tribute?

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It worths a mention that even though he was in a very difficult and dangerous situation at the moment, if Robb would have managed to reach Moat Cailin, and take it from the Ironborn, his chances would have become much better.

He (or anyone -like the Greatjon- left in command while Robb travels to Winterfell to settle matters quickly) could have defended the Neck with the army very easily against any attack from the South, no matter how strong. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance should have kept a sizeable force there anyway,closing the road to the south and keeping an eye on the Northerners, and could only use the rest of their army to besiege the castles of the Riverlands. The northern army would have been closer to its main basis, and therefore easily resupplied after the bloody campaign, meanwhile the Iron Throne's one would face constant minor fighting and guerilla warfare throughout the whole Riverlands. The Ironborn were a serious danger, but they were incapable of conquering the North. Remember, Rodrick Cassel easily collected a sizeable force,  which was enough to kick the Cleftjaw's ass. To settle matters on the North did not require the return of Robb's whole army up to Winterfell- it required his own presence for a while. Just qucikly organizing a small army to blockade Asha, solving a few problems of inheritance (such as the cases of houses Hornwood and Karstark), and ba-damm, the North is stable again, whilst the Lannister generals are hopelessly watching the walls of Riverrun.

Natrurally all of it did not happen, because Robb could not solve the Trident problem, and became destroyed, but returning to the North was definitely not an idiotic decision in itself (it would have been far more idiotic staying at the Riverlands, and meeting the combined Lannister-Tyrell army on an open battlefield).

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I was actually including them, that is why I added such a high number of 5-10k. Staffords army largely came from Lannisport, a city half the size of the Kings Landing and did not include their City Watch. There is no way that they would have supplied that many.

 

there were 4,000 men who were at the Golden Tooth so you are saying that all the men that Stafford could raise from the rest of the Westerlands is 1 to 6 thousand?  that's all there were left in the Westerlands?  that's hard to believe. 

No, that had not happened. Have you even looked at a map of the Westerlands?

Simply not true. Was Crakehall, Banefort, Silverhill or Fair Isle under danger?  Was Sarsfield, Deep Den, Kayce or Feast Fires under danger? Was Wyndhall, Cornfield, Riverspring to the Golden Tooth?

No, Robb has a limited area and with 6k could not really dilute his force to do much more. Had he brought more men he may have kept more places in danger but to say the Westerlands was in danger is preposterous.

 

They were safe in the cities and some of the castles but anywhere else in the Westerlands they would be in danger . How can you organize and raise an army if you are afraid to leave the cities or castles? If Daven started to gather troops outside of Lannisport how long before the Blackfish scouts find out and Robb attacks them . As long as Robb has an army in the Westerlands Daven cannot do anything. 

 

Sure, in a limited poorly protected area.

 

That's just not true . Everything that's not in Lannisport or one of the strongest castles is in danger from Robb's pillaging . Every farm , gold mine , cattle ranch , small village and town are in danger from being pillaged by Robb. How can the Westerlands protect their resources when they are afraid to leave their castles? Do you think that any of the Lords are going to leave the protection of their castles to protect their farmland knowing that Robb and the Blackfish are out there somewhere?  

 

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1) Time was not on Robb's side. This was partially idiotic thinking on Robb's part. He never thought that the Tyrells or anyone else would join. It is possible that some other House could have joined the Lannisters or some other Sellsword company. There was still many variables that could have played out. Robb would have been better off in the Riverlands were he could actullay do something if something unexpected happened.

2) Unless Tywin offered fealty. Both Robb and Tywin were in the same boat, neither showed any inclination to surrender but both were perfectly capable of doing so. The reason why Renly takes his sweet, sweet time is that he is happy for his enemies to fight amongst themselves and weaken each other.

 

It's funny that you compliment Renly about taking his sweet time and letting his enemies fight amongst  themselves but criticize Robb for doing the same thing . If there is no shadow baby then Renly and Tywin end up fighting each other at Kings Landing and more then likely Renly crushes Tywin but takes a lot of damage while Robb doesn't lose any men . Robb then returns to the Riverlands and starts to negiotate with Renly but is able to negiotate from a stronger position because he has the full force of the North and Riverlands behind him . He probably still bends the knee to Renly but with probably pretty good terms. 

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No, Robb has a limited area and with 6k could not really dilute his force to do much more. Had he brought more men he may have kept more places in danger but to say the Westerlands was in danger is preposterous.

This is from the Wiki  "Robb Stark continues attacking the westerlands, capturing Ashemark, and marches on to take the Crag.[4] Galbart Glover and Rickard Karstark raid along the coast. Maege Mormont captures thousands of livestock and begins driving them back towards the riverlandsGreatjon Umber captures the gold mines at Nunn's DeepCastamere, and in the Pendric Hills."

It seems like Robb's men were all over the Westerlands . After Oxcross the Westerland forces are probably afraid to leave their cities and castles so Robb has free rein to take whatever he wants. 

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