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Is Robb Stark A Coward ?

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there were 4,000 men who were at the Golden Tooth so you are saying that all the men that Stafford could raise from the rest of the Westerlands is 1 to 6 thousand?  that's all there were left in the Westerlands?  that's hard to believe. 

Do you have trouble reading? As I said repeatedly before, Stafford raised from Lannisport not the entire Westerlands.

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle"

Now considering that Kings Landing, a city around double the size of Lannisport could only raise around 8k, with support from Rosby and Stokeworth, then it is fair to say that the Lannisport green boys is not going to be higher. Especially when the elite Lannisport City guard remains at Lannisport.

 

They were safe in the cities and some of the castles but anywhere else in the Westerlands they would be in danger .

Again, more ridiculous thinking. Robb had with him 6,000 and the Westerlands is larger than the UK. Saying that only castles are safe is preposterous. Robb targeted a specific area, from the Ashemark to the Crag and the ruins of Castamere. That area the people were in danger but that is only part of the Westerlands.

That's just not true . Everything that's not in Lannisport or one of the strongest castles is in danger from Robb's pillaging . Every farm , gold mine , cattle ranch , small village and town are in danger from being pillaged by Robb.

Has Robb learnt how to teleport and are his men gremlins who will multiply if you add water?

No, of course not. The more he splits up his 6k(ish) the less effective and dangerous they become. The more chance that they themselves will get hit.

Robb was quite clever in his Westerlands strategy, he had his men constantly on the move till he got injured meaning less chance of retaliation. But to say the whole of the Westerlands was in trouble is pretty dumb.

 

How can the Westerlands protect their resources when they are afraid to leave their castles?

Where is that mentioned?

 

Do you think that any of the Lords are going to leave the protection of their castles to protect their farmland knowing that Robb and the Blackfish are out there somewhere?  

Yeah. Robb was concentrated in a small area of the Westerlands, not the entire of it.

 

It's funny that you compliment Renly about taking his sweet time and letting his enemies fight amongst  themselves but criticize Robb for doing the same thing . If there is no shadow baby

Wah! Wah ! Shadow baby Wah! Wah!

Every discussion with you, no matter what the subject, you have to bring out the shadow baby as if anyone disagrees with the notion that the shadow baby stopped Renly being King. Renly would be King and Tywin and Robb would have either sworn fealty or been defeated. No one is denying that.

 

This is from the Wiki  "Robb Stark continues attacking the westerlands, capturing Ashemark, and marches on to take the Crag.[4] Galbart Glover and Rickard Karstark raid along the coast. Maege Mormont captures thousands of livestock and begins driving them back towards the riverlandsGreatjon Umber captures the gold mines at Nunn's DeepCastamere, and in the Pendric Hills."

It seems like Robb's men were all over the Westerlands . After Oxcross the Westerland forces are probably afraid to leave their cities and castles so Robb has free rein to take whatever he wants. 

Does it? Castamere and the Crag are right next to each other. Ashemark is quite close as well. We don't know were Nunns deep or Pendric Hills are so I'm not sure how you can say with any authority that Robbs men were all over the Westerlands.

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Do you have trouble reading? As I said repeatedly before, Stafford raised from Lannisport not the entire Westerlands.

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle"

Now considering that Kings Landing, a city around double the size of Lannisport could only raise around 8k, with support from Rosby and Stokeworth, then it is fair to say that the Lannisport green boys is not going to be higher. Especially when the elite Lannisport City guard remains at Lannisport.

I read just fine . What sense does it make that they would raise an army to help Tywin and they would only take men from Lannisport and  not the rest of the Westerlands. I'm sure that a good portion would be from Lannisport but there would be a good portion from the other areas of the Westerlands . If not what practical sense would that make ? Kings Landing is a totally different animal then Lannisport . The people of Kings Landing are not going to fight for the man who sacked them 20 years ago . Why would would they join the Lannisters ? doesn't matter to them who wins. 

 

 

No, of course not. The more he splits up his 6k(ish) the less effective and dangerous they become. The more chance that they themselves will get hit.

Robb was quite clever in his Westerlands strategy, he had his men constantly on the move till he got injured meaning less chance of retaliation. But to say the whole of the Westerlands was in trouble is pretty dumb.

 

 

The point is that Robb's men were split up and attacking the Westerlands at different places. Would the Westerland  Lords know where they were ? Would they be willing to take a chance of being attacked if they left their towns or castles? Why would they risk that when they knew that eventually Robb would leave .  

Wah! Wah ! Shadow baby Wah! Wah!

Every discussion with you, no matter what the subject, you have to bring out the shadow baby as if anyone disagrees with the notion that the shadow baby stopped Renly being King. Renly would be King and Tywin and Robb would have either sworn fealty or been defeated. No one is denying that.

I keep bringing it up because you keep ignoring the fact that Tywin was in more danger from Renly then Robb , you act like they had an equal amount at stake and that simply is not true. Tywin would have been in much more trouble then Robb if Renly is not killed. 

 

 

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Do you have trouble reading? As I said repeatedly before, Stafford raised from Lannisport not the entire Westerlands.

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle"

Now considering that Kings Landing, a city around double the size of Lannisport could only raise around 8k, with support from Rosby and Stokeworth, then it is fair to say that the Lannisport green boys is not going to be higher. Especially when the elite Lannisport City guard remains at Lannisport.

 

 "Among those reported dead, missing and wounded are Ser Lymond Vikary, Lord Roland Crakehall, and Lord Antario Jast. These men are actually captured by the Stark forces, along with Martyn Lannister, Lord Jast's sons, and half a hundred other highborn hostages"

Wouldn't Ser Vikary, Lord Crakehall and Lord Jast have brought there own men ? and what about the "half a hundred other highborn hostages" wouldn't they have brought retainers and soldiers with them? It seems like there was a lot more there then just men from Lannisport . It makes no sense that they would not be calling the banners from all of the Westerland. 

 

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Do you have trouble reading? As I said repeatedly before, Stafford raised from Lannisport not the entire Westerlands.

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle"

 

Isn't that quote from Blackfish? how does he know exactly where Stafford is raising his troops from? He just guessing and nowhere in that quote does he say that they will only be from Lannisport. It only makes sense that Stafford will be calling the banners and raising soldiers from everywhere in the Westerlands.  Maybe you are the one who needs to work on your reading.  

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I read just fine . What sense does it make that they would raise an army to help Tywin and they would only take men from Lannisport and  not the rest of the Westerlands. I'm sure that a good portion would be from Lannisport but there would be a good portion from the other areas of the Westerlands .

Clearly you can not. It quite clearly states that they were from Lannisport, not the Westerlands. That is what the books states, not from the entire Westerlands.

I am sorry if you don't like that but that is where that army was mostly from.

 

The point is that Robb's men were split up and attacking the Westerlands at different places. Would the Westerland  Lords know where they were ? Would they be willing to take a chance of being attacked if they left their towns or castles? Why would they risk that when they knew that eventually Robb would leave .

*Yawn* Do you think the people of White Harbor were scared to leave the castle in case of Ironborn attack?

 

Honestly, can you please try and use some common sense.

 

  

I keep bringing it up because you keep ignoring the fact that Tywin was in more danger from Renly then Robb , you act like they had an equal amount at stake and that simply is not true. Tywin would have been in much more trouble then Robb if Renly is not killed. 

I don't ignore it. We have had this discussion many times and not once have I said that Tywin was not likely doomed if Renly was not killed.

Tywin would have either been beaten or would have had to swear fealty. The same is true of Robb, is it not?

 

Isn't that quote from Blackfish? how does he know exactly where Stafford is raising his troops from? He just guessing and nowhere in that quote does he say that they will only be from Lannisport. It only makes sense that Stafford will be calling the banners and raising soldiers from everywhere in the Westerlands.  Maybe you are the one who needs to work on your reading.  

The provide a quote to back this up. So far the Blackfish is as good an authority on this as anyone.

 "Among those reported dead, missing and wounded are Ser Lymond Vikary, Lord Roland Crakehall, and Lord Antario Jast. These men are actually captured by the Stark forces, along with Martyn Lannister, Lord Jast's sons, and half a hundred other highborn hostages"

Wouldn't Ser Vikary, Lord Crakehall and Lord Jast have brought there own men ? and what about the "half a hundred other highborn hostages" wouldn't they have brought retainers and soldiers with them? It seems like there was a lot more there then just men from Lannisport . It makes no sense that they would not be calling the banners from all of the Westerland. 

 

Jast is married to a Lannister, him being at Casterly Rock, Lannisport makes sense. Vikary are landed knights, again likley part of the Casterly Rock domain.

Considering that, as I said before, 4,000 escaped with Prester that some of these may have been part of that rather than a new army drawn from across the entire Westerlands.

Honestly, I have no idea were you came up with this idea that it was a 20k army. Seems a ridiculous amount.

 

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The provide a quote to back this up. So far the Blackfish is as good an authority on this as anyone.

 Jast is married to a Lannister, him being at Casterly Rock, Lannisport makes sense. Vikary are landed knights, again likley part of the Casterly Rock domain.

Considering that, as I said before, 4,000 escaped with Prester that some of these may have been part of that rather than a new army drawn from across the entire Westerlands.

Honestly, I have no idea were you came up with this idea that it was a 20k army. Seems a ridiculous amount.

 

What is so ridiculous about a 20K army from the Westerlands ? we know that 4K of Jamie's men were at the Golden Tooth . Is it so crazy to think that the Westerlands cannot pull together 10 to 16 thousand more men if they had to? From what i understand the Westerlands are one of the most populous regions of Westeroes . 

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Jast is married to a Lannister, him being at Casterly Rock, Lannisport makes sense. Vikary are landed knights, again likley part of the Casterly Rock domain.

Considering that, as I said before, 4,000 escaped with Prester that some of these may have been part of that rather than a new army drawn from across the entire Westerlands.

Honestly, I have no idea were you came up with this idea that it was a 20k army. Seems a ridiculous amount.

 

Why is it so hard to believe that Stafford would have pulled in men from all across the Westerlands? why would he only get men from Lannsiport? Tywin would need a sizable army to help him against Robb, Renly & Stannis so why would Stafford not pull in as many men as he could? that just makes little sense 

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What is so ridiculous about a 20K army from the Westerlands ? we know that 4K of Jamie's men were at the Golden Tooth . Is it so crazy to think that the Westerlands cannot pull together 10 to 16 thousand more men if they had to? From what i understand the Westerlands are one of the most populous regions of Westeroes . 

Firstly, is it not from the Westerlands but predominately from Lannisport like we are told in the books.  I will repeat myself, Kings Landing was only able to raise an army of around 8k from the city and the surrounding lands ( at least Rosby & Stokeworth). Lannisport at half the size will only be able to raise half that amount and it seems highly unlikely that the actual original garrisons of the Rock and Lannisport would have left them unprotected (certainly Balon does not think so and Robb mentions how they are too strong to attack)

Prester sent some of his men to help train these levies but not all, it would seem strange to send his entire 4k to Lannisport when they would only be marching back again. This explains the nobility presence captured.

All told that seems around 5-10k.

Why is it so hard to believe that Stafford would have pulled in men from all across the Westerlands? why would he only get men from Lannsiport? Tywin would need a sizable army to help him against Robb, Renly & Stannis so why would Stafford not pull in as many men as he could? that just makes little sense 

Because other areas of the Westerlands still need protecting from potential attack. At this point the Reach had declared for Renly, the Ironborn was an unknown quantity and he was still at war with the Riverlands which had other ways to get into the West. Those areas would not be abandoned.

The Westerlings are a poor House with little of value to protect. The Lannisters did not even deem them worthy of marrying one of Kevans younger sons. It makes sense that they were only left with a paltry garrison of 50-100.

Marbrands are different but we know from sources at Riverruun that Robb getting past the Golden Tooth was a huge surprise. Ashemark is pretty central, behind the Tooth and not close enough to the coast for it to have been considered in trouble. It is understandable why that castle was less poorly protected.

But other castles close to the borders or richer Houses would be left with larger numbers to better defend themselves.

At best I think the Westerlands has an 50k army, I just don't see it as a realistic possibility that there could be another 20k on top of the 35k already deployed as well as the Garrisons at the various settlements around the Westerlands. And like the Northmens lack of response to both Rodrik and the Nights Watch calls for men I imagine that the Westerland Lords would be more frugal with sending men away from their settlements while under attack.

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Firstly, is it not from the Westerlands but predominately from Lannisport like we are told in the books. 

So let me get this straight . Blackfish made an off hand comment to Cat "We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle" 

and based on that comment you have created this whole idea that Stafford raised all his men from predominately Lannisport. Blackfish has no idea where Stafford is going to get his men from and frankly he did not say anything about "predominately from Lannisport" 

Stafford would have gotten men from everywhere he could . Freeriders, Sellswords , Knights and peasants from anywhere in the Westerlands he could find them . He needed to have a significant force to be able to help Tywin. 

 

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Prester sent some of his men to help train these levies but not all, it would seem strange to send his entire 4k to Lannisport when they would only be marching back again. This explains the nobility presence captured.

All told that seems around 5-10k.

 

So how many soldiers including the 4k that were at the Golden Tooth do you think they had that would have comprised Stafford's army when he went to the Riverlands? it would have to be at least 10k to be of use to Tywin.  

 

 

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So let me get this straight . Blackfish made an off hand comment to Cat "We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle" 

and based on that comment you have created this whole idea that Stafford raised all his men from predominately Lannisport. Blackfish has no idea where Stafford is going to get his men from and frankly he did not say anything about "predominately from Lannisport" 

Stafford would have gotten men from everywhere he could . Freeriders, Sellswords , Knights and peasants from anywhere in the Westerlands he could find them . He needed to have a significant force to be able to help Tywin. 

 

Yes, I am basing it on Blackfish and general common sense. The idea of a 20k army with Stafford is ridiculous.

How many soldiers do you think the Westerlands can generate?

Do you think that Stafford is stripping every castle of the men needed to defend themselves to raise this army leaving everywhere else defenceless?

While Tywin is in need of more men (everyone but Renly is) it is noticeable that he did not take any of the 8,000 from Kings Landing. He left them there.  He actually sends around a 100 men with Tyrion as well as Tyrions own Mountain Clan members. He is not going to strip either the Westerlands or Kings Landing of the protection it needs.

So how many soldiers including the 4k that were at the Golden Tooth do you think they had that would have comprised Stafford's army when he went to the Riverlands? it would have to be at least 10k to be of use to Tywin.  

 

So if it is only 4k Stafford is going to tell them all to go home? lol

Do you know why Tywin never ordered the Westerland navy to go to Kings Landing despite Stannis commanding the Royal Navy? Because it would be idiotic stripping the Westerlands defence when it was potentially at war with every other realm.

Do you know why Balon still does not believe he could keep Lannisport or even take the Rock despite being told by Theon that Stafford has left them both to go to Oxcross and Tywin is in the Riverlands? Because it would be idiotic stripping the major settlements their defenses when it was potentially at war with every other realm.

Do you know why Robb has to focus on villages rather than the more powerful Westerland Lords, despite beating Stafford at Oxcross and sending his army fleeing? Because it would be idiotic stripping the most powerful Lords of the numbers they needed to defend themselves.

This is really a mixture of information we gather from characters in the book and good old common sense.

We know that the Westerlings are now a rather unimportant House, not even prestigious enough to marry Kevans second son, that they have sold much of their land and the Crag is more ruin than castle. Robb himself calls the Crag  "weakly garrisoned". What does weakly garrisoned mean? Well we know that they have at least "Fifty. A dozen knights" and we know there was casualties so their garrison was likely just under/over 100. And this is for a poor Lord (and also this is after Oxcross so in your scenario they would have already sent men to Stafford).

Other Garrisons (and military in reserve) are going to be significantly higher based on their location, how rich they are and how powerful a Lord it is.

 

Given that I highly doubt that the Westerlands can raise more than 50k (itself I think a little on the high size) and that 35k had already been deployed and Lords around the Westerlands had to hold back a certain amount of strength then, personally, I find the idea of a 20K army with Stafford at Oxcross ridiculous, actually incredibly ridiculous. Nor do I think that Robb and the Blackfish would only take 6,000 if they expected the army to be that high. It would be an idiotic move on their part.

 

edit: I kind of like how this thread has been dominated by the two of us when neither of us think that Robb is a coward.

 

 

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Yes, I am basing it on Blackfish and general common sense. The idea of a 20k army with Stafford is ridiculous.

 Frankly i just threw out the "20 thousand or so" line without really thinking about it but if you add the 4 k from Jaimie's and the free riders, sellswords and anyone else that Stafford could gather you could be talking about a significant amount of soldiers . It would have to be at least 10k (4K from Jaimie's and 6K or so that Stafford raises) and maybe up to 15K but i could be wrong , guessing how many soldiers someone can raise is not something i claim to be an expert on.  

edit: I kind of like how this thread has been dominated by the two of when neither of us think that Robb is a coward.

I know it's kind of weird but frankly the whole Robb is a coward thing seems like a troll thread to me so at least we turned it into something productive.  

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 Frankly i just threw out the "20 thousand or so" line without really thinking about it but if you add the 4 k from Jaimie's and the free riders, sellswords and anyone else that Stafford could gather you could be talking about a significant amount of soldiers . It would have to be at least 10k (4K from Jaimie's and 6K or so that Stafford raises) and maybe up to 15K but i could be wrong , guessing how many soldiers someone can raise is not something i claim to be an expert on.  

But not all the 4k are there. GRRM tells us that Prester remains at the Golden Tooth but sends off a portion of his men to help train these raw recruits from Lannisport. Which is just common sense, when Robb called his banners he didn't make the Southern Houses meet him at Winterfell only for them to travel back to Moat Cailin again. That is just a needless waste of resources as feeding a travelling army was hugely expensive.

 

I disagree that it had to be 10k to make a difference. Look at how much of a difference the Freys 4k added to Robb. 10k is a huge number of men (especially when 35k had already been raised).

 

Sorry to badger you but how many men do you think the Westerlands is capable of raising?

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Personally, I think the idea of a North + Riverlands "Kingdom" was pretty idiotic to begin with.  The Riverlands is the least defensible part of Westeros by any measure and while the North is vulnerable to naval sneak attack, by land it is very defensible.  To hold his "Kingdom" together, King-in-the-North Robb could never have really gone and stayed north - he'd lose the Riverlands as the OP says if he ever left.  The only way a Riverlands + North kingdom works at all is if Riverrun is the main seat of power, as it was in ASOS.  

Better if the Riverlands and the North remain separate kingdoms, perhaps allying on occassion to fight off enemies.  In that context there is no betrayal by Robb - he helps fight Tywins' men who are slaughtering Riverlanders, and later some Riverlands men come and help retake The North.  Alternatively, the Riverlands can support Robb in less obvious ways.  While publickly they are being "occupied" by northern forces, they can contribute supplies and even men to the war effort.  

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Sorry to badger you but how many men do you think the Westerlands is capable of raising?

I'm not sure but i don't think that it's crazy that Stafford could raise 10K men , isn't the Westerlands the size of the UK? Tywin and Jamie would have taken the experienced , trained soldiers but i would think that there would be enough men if you scrape the bottom of the barrel in Lannisport and Casterly Rock and collect all the sellswords and freeriders you can and the bannermen all send as many men as they can and still have a small garrison.  You add that 10K to the 4K of Jamie's and you would have a 14K army which would be a significant help to Tywin. 

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