Dr Qyburn M.D Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 In ADWD Cersei 1 when the High Sparrow is listing the crimes Cersei is being accused of he charges her with deicide. The definition of the word "deicide" is the killer of a god so wtf!? Can someone explain this to me please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Estellion Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 In ADWD Cersei 1 when the High Sparrow is listing the crimes Cersei is being accused of he charges her with deicide. The definition of the word "deicide" is the killer of a god so wtf!? Can someone explain this to me please Deicide?" She almost laughed. "When did I kill a god?""The High Septon speaks for the Seven here on earth. Strike at him, and you are striking at the gods themselves." Her uncle raised a hand before she could protest. "It does no good to speak of such things. Not here. The time for all that is at trial.Cercei I, ADWD She had the last High Septon murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 That High Sparrow certainly has delusions of grandeur doesn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Seaworth Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Why can't a religious leader have the murder of his predecessor called deicide. He is supposed to be the Seven's Chosen representative thus murdering him is considering an act of killing a God's representative i.e. someone the Gods are working through, killing him is killing the hand of the Gods, or so they can have it said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 That High Sparrow certainly has delusions of grandeur doesn't he?Not nearly as much as Cersei does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Not nearly as much as Cersei does. She never said that she is god, nor a god, nor that her predecessor in function was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Why can't a religious leader have the murder of his predecessor called deicide. He is supposed to be the Seven's Chosen representative thus murdering him is considering an act of killing a God's representative i.e. someone the Gods are working through, killing him is killing the hand of the Gods, or so they can have it said.I think it's a stretch to call the killing of a High Septon "deicide". The High Septon is a mortal man.The HS seems to like Hildebrand, claiming he has authority over monarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 She never said that she is god, nor a god, nor that her predecessor in function was. I was referring to her "delusions of grandeur" not on her being a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I was referring to her "delusions of grandeur" not on her being a god. Well, the High Septon by definition surpasses her in that. He actually claims to speak for the Gods, and that his predecessor in charge was actually a god to be deicided.She doesn't even believe herself to be the Young Dragon, or Napoleon or anything...Well, maybe she believes that by grinning she becomes Tywin with teats, but definitely not a god. So she is less deluded than the High Septon. Or were you trying to say that there are people around claiming to be gods that are not deluded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 She never said that she is god, nor a god, nor that her predecessor in function was. I don't think that's up to the High Sparrow. The current Pope isn't the one who declared that the Pope is infallible - that was the Church/former Pope. Likelier that the Faith of the Seven defines the killing of a HS as deicide, not the HS himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionsFlagon Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Would you all consider murdering the Hand of the King regicide? I would say it's on the same level as calling the murder the High Septon deicide. I just can't decide whether I consider the statements to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I don't think that's up to the High Sparrow. The current Pope isn't the one who declared that the Pope is infallible - that was the Church/former Pope. Likelier that the Faith of the Seven defines the killing of a HS as deicide, not the HS himself.But it is a dogma. You cannot be a faithful without believing that part, at least in your example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyl Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I do feel like it's a fairly bogus charge, unless the official tenet of the faith is that the High Septon actually is a god. (Incarnation of a god would count, but not representative, messenger, or servant of a god.)The idea behind it is probably that the High Septon is a super-special guy and murdering him should get you in way more trouble than murdering some other poor schmo. But, doesn't the High Sparrow have some kind of "no one is special" philosophy? (I remember that from the show, but I'm not sure if that was in the books.) If so, it would be weird for him to think murdering the High Septon would be worse than normal homicide, but I guess he probably doesn't get to decide these things himself. Maybe he'd favor the same earthly sentence for homicide and the so-called "deicide." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Aunt Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 On 15.12.2015 at 7:19 PM, SeanF said: I think it's a stretch to call the killing of a High Septon "deicide". The High Septon is a mortal man. The HS seems to like Hildebrand, claiming he has authority over monarchs. Well the whole concept of "deicide" only works, if the victim is mortal. Man, god or what creature soever. You can't kill an immortal creature, because what can be killed is not immortal to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Tarly Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Its counted as deicide because, for all practical purposes, the High Septon is considered "the voice of the gods." As he is considered the voice of the gods, killing him is, technically, kinda killing a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade of Sunlight Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 This is probably stipulated in a list of sins, probably part of the historical dogma of the faith. It probably wasn't the first time a HS was murdered so it is likely this is the standard accusation for that crime, it's mostly down to tradition and dogma, the will of the HS or a logical analysis of the crime (is he or is he not god) don't factor in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwloftheRainwood Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 On 1/24/2016 at 7:12 AM, Blade of Sunlight said: This is probably stipulated in a list of sins, probably part of the historical dogma of the faith. It probably wasn't the first time a HS was murdered so it is likely this is the standard accusation for that crime, it's mostly down to tradition and dogma, the will of the HS or a logical analysis of the crime (is he or is he not god) don't factor in. This assumes HS motivations are genuine. They could be but for all we know "deicide" is a stretch and he's using the charges to increase HS/Faith's power. There is no evidence the pre-Tyrion HS's killers nor the woman who clearly started the KLR (all with noble/royal witnesses) were charged with deicide. We cannot know either way and it's not a big deal - the trial is happening whether or not it is traditional or a stretch. The bigger, underlying question is what are the current HS goals? There are many options. 1.) No matter what HS has a distaste for current nobility, especially the Lannisters who ravished the Riverlands, where he was a nomadic septon. He wants to leverage a weak House Lannister and in-fighting, break Lion-Rose alliance to expand the Faith's institutional power at the expense of the nobility. 2.) He could be a "true believer" who cares about the common people - his appearance and janitorial duties suggest this. Maybe he's a fraud bent on his personal power as HS. This aligns with GRRM's general style. Either way he has benefited from angry mobs and chaos, weak nobles. Having gained power, will the religious figure surrender it? 3.) Less likely, he could be in league with Varys attempting a Targ restoration. I like this theory, but given historic antagonism b/t the Faith and Targs, this alliance seems remote. Perhaps fAegon is palatable to the Faith, but HS benefits from mobs, not a realm united behind a popular king. If HS is indeed a genuine guardian of the Faith, Varys-HS alliance makes no sense. However, if he is false it seems possible. 4.) HS is not HR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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