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The Long Night and the Great Summer


Durran Durrandon

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I like your theory and I like LML's theory too.

I do agree that the 'cause' is going to be the interesting part.  We already seem to know the answer, it's already happened with the stories of the Last Hero and Azor Ahai, it's the details that might help make the question; How did it happen - what was the cause?

It's interesting because both sides need to have a contribution as in, Fire needs to exist so that the earth doesn't become too cold and by extension, Light is needed for things to grow.  Conversely, Ice is needed so that the earth isn't scorched over leading to an inability to grow food, as well as to provide nutrients to that food once it is growing.  So it's a symbiotic relationship though it seems like neither side seems to know this as far as the religious manifestations go.  R'hllor's priests like Mel are all about defeating he whose name may not be spoken.  If there's a priest/priestess or even a God behind the Others, they too seem to be about the opposite, no sunlight, and defeating all things warmblooded.  That each needs the other is clear to us.  But in the context of the story, the symbiotic relationship is less clear but there may be clues.

While we can explain the cause of the Long Night by way of science and magic, either by volcanic eruptions that lead to ice ages or by way of a comet hitting a moon.  Either by an axial tilt that is not typical (to Earth) or by one elemental faction holding sway over the other via their magics.

It's interesting because on Earth, we don't know for certain what caused our Ice Age(s), though we may have a good list of candidates and contributors to causation.  Volcanic eruptions could cause an Ice Age if serious enough.  Likewise, solar output variations, atmospheric composition as well as space material can contribute to or possibly cause an Ice Age as well, so the causes can come from both within and without the planet proper.  Then there's the Milankovitch Cycles or perhaps more easily discerned, astronomical or 'solar seasons' which occur on a rough cycle of 21k to 41k years.  Maybe this is line with the scientific explanation of things, that Planetos has reached that point in their cycle?  The magical part is how it gets explained within the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

The other curious thing is not just the 'cause' but the solution and the propulsion of characters toward that without knowing the reasoning behind it, necessarily.  I find that to be the more fascinating thing and possibly the things that will be hardest to apply any scientific-type of reasoning to in the end.  Say for example if Bran ends up being a crucial element to either bringing on the LN or assisting in its end... will he know that ultimately he's bringing balance or even counterbalance or will he simply be under some false assumption whatever they may be?  Or, is GRRM even going to go to that length to provide clarity at all? 

Interesting link. The question is that will this be an ice age scenario, or as the legends state, will the sun be literally hidden. It doesn't seem like a proper ice age could fit the timeline.

As for what act will remediate the Long Night, and how we ever know. That is a huge question. I love the fact that depending on how you slice it, we have three to four explanations as to how the Long Night ended: Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, the woman with a monkey's tale, and the song of the lesser children of Mother Rohyne. 

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Interesting link. The question is that will this be an ice age scenario, or as the legends state, will the sun be literally hidden. It doesn't seem like a proper ice age could fit the timeline.

As for what act will remediate the Long Night, and how we ever know. That is a huge question. I love the fact that depending on how you slice it, we have three to four explanations as to how the Long Night ended: Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, the woman with a monkey's tale, and the song of the lesser children of Mother Rohyne. 

Yeah I'm not necessarily stating that Planetos would or will fall into an Ice Age, I'm merely saying from the scientific angle there's several ways to get to that state.  Say for example if the previous Long Night seemed like a mini ice age as far as Westeros/Planetos standards are concerned.  Was it really something like the Doom, or was it the Comet/Moon?  Was it a strange convergence of solar output variance along with the perfect storm of the Milankovitch cycle, coupled with some fire magic?  Was it only one of those?  Was it none of the above?  I think the tales suggested the LN lasted a generation or so?  So perhaps 10-20 or more years, give or take a few.  But, in the context of the story, I have to wonder and kind of doubt that the Long Night we're about to see will last that long.  Our main characters would be old men and women by then and our older characters would be long dead.  I predict it will be shorter.

So in turn, I'm not sure that LML's theory will have enough evidence provided to prove it wholesale.  Kind of like how LOTR has unanswered questions involving the mystical, magic and the like.  Surely magic wasn't eradicated because the One Ring was destroyed.  So that leaves open-ended possibilities... I think the same will apply here.  I think we'll get the resolution (Next Last Hero) of the Long Night, but I'm not sure we'll get that evidence that leads us to any more comprehension of how this comet has affected life on Planetos and even magic to whatever degree it does or doesn't.  It'd be cool to have, but I think the way GRRM is going about it, he'll leave a lot of that unsaid and consequently we'll have plenty to talk about and hypothesize about.

Good stuff though and if it means anything, I hope the evidence is a little more clear so that either theory (or even another alternative) has enough to sort of rule it out or be accepted.  But GRRM is a crafty SOB, he'll give us what he wants us to have... can't wait to see what it's going to be.

 

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I think the tales suggested the LN lasted a generation or so?  So perhaps 10-20 or more years, give or take a few.  But, in the context of the story, I have to wonder and kind of doubt that the Long Night we're about to see will last that long.  Our main characters would be old men and women by then and our older characters would be long dead.  I predict it will be shorter.

One would hope. However, we are told the last book will be title Dreams of Spring. It doesn't sound like a promise that any of our characters will reach the end of winter.

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I will be accepting apologies when Bran sees a vision of the original blinding of the God's Eye through the weirnet. :)

I'm serious though - if anyone has a real need to understand the mechanism of the Long Night, it's Bran, and he's also uniquely situated to have access to that knowledge. I agree much will left ambiguous but I do believe we will get an explanation for the seasons and the Long Night. He has a specific answer and it's too central of a mystery to leave unanswered. 

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I will be accepting apologies when Bran sees a vision of the original blinding of the God's Eye through the weirnet. :)

I'm serious though - if anyone has a real need to understand the mechanism of the Long Night, it's Bran, and he's also uniquely situated to have access to that knowledge. I agree much will left ambiguous but I do believe we will get an explanation for the seasons and the Long Night. He has a specific answer and it's too central of a mystery to leave unanswered. 

I tend to agree.

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 Speaking of summer: I've always been intrigued as to why Bran's direwolf was named Summer. Any thoughts on that? It seems to have come to him because of his coma-state dreams of the Land of Always Winter. Is it just an obvious "Duh he is going to try bring about the opposite of winter i.e. summer" or is there something more?

What I would add is that Bran is shown the whole thing. He sees Asshai by the Shadow, and I believe the Shadow itself. He sees Jon, I would presume, dying and freezing. Then he sees the Heart of Winter, behind the veil of light. I love that the heart of winter is beyond the light by the way. It's a nice contrast with the Shadow and it inverts the Lord of Light and Great Other trope, if only for a moment. Ultimately, I think the story should end towards balance, rather than just Bran bringing summer. I think it might be more like Bran will help Jon and or Daenerys* accomplish whatever has to be done to restore that balance. Summer, and the Nan's calling Bran summer's child, are a counter weight to the winter that's occurring.

*Let's not count out Meera or Brienne. I could see either playing a heavy role in the resolution of the Long Night arc.

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I posed this question a couple of months ago in an open ended post - I asked if people thought we will get another Long Night (no sun, full scale Others invasion) and if so, what will be the cause. I was a bit surprised that basically nobody had any good guesses about how another Long Night might fall. Nobody knows how the last one fell, so people have just put it out of mind. But most do expect another LN - it's the real Chekov's gun in the story - but nobody has thought much about how. Your idea of the planet tilting is by far the best alternative to another comet-moon collision I've seen... I mean what would really shock me is the sun just darkened and disappeared with no explanation. I don't expect that, because I don't think anything in Martinland is simply irrational like that. The Doom had a specific cause, and so does the seasonal wackiness, and so too does the Long Night. 

Personally, I don't think your idea of the comet impact destroying the moon (with the requisite dust cloud) and DD's idea that their is severe axial procession are mutually exclusive. 

In any gravitationally bound astronomical system, there must be balance.  The various bodies all naturally settle into a state where there is the least amount of chaos.  Prime examples of this are bodies falling into Lagrange points or a Laplace resonance.  While this appears at first glance to violate the Second Law, it is only accomplished by wild entropy, and even periods of stability are in fact only interludes to more entropy, as illustrated by Planetos.

I posit that LmL's idea of the comet impact/moon destruction and DD's idea of axial procession are in fact one in the same.  When our magical comet destroyed the magical moon (because it wouldn't have done so if it wasn't magical), this caused the sciencey part of the equation to be thrown out of wack: Planetos' moons and their equilibrium were thrown off, and as both the Ice Moon and Planetos seek to discover a new mutual barycenter, this would explain perfectly the axial procession and the out of wack seasons.  10,000 years is the blink of an eye in cosmological terms.  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the Planetos system hasn't found equilibrium again yet.

This also does not, however, rule out the dust cloud hypothesis.  They could certainly both have happened, and it is indeed likely that they did.  It is also distinctly possible that an upcoming long night does not need another dust cloud (though I am inclined to believe that the comet will hit again).  If axial procession gets bad enough, there is no reason to assume that Planetos couldn't do its best impression of Uranus and point one pole at the star.

Coming to the star brings up an interesting point.  We know that Planetos has a sun, but we know nothing about it.  If Planetos sun is at the upper end of what constitutes a habitable star, Planetos' orbital period could be significantly longer than that of Earth: it could be upward of three of our years for one of Planetos' orbitat periods (years).  It is entirely plausible that even one polar 'flop' could cause a Long Night scenario in which our Northern Hemisphere is entirely in the dark for a very long time.

Either way, there is IMO anyway, significant evidence to support LmL's idea.  There is also significant evidence to support DD's idea.  GRRM is clearly well read on orbital dynamics to have come up with this (assuming this isn't all a lucky fluke), and he could really go with either option to bring about the new Long Night, though I'm inclined to think that Chekov's Comet means more than just the birth of dragons.

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Personally, I don't think your idea of the comet impact destroying the moon (with the requisite dust cloud) and DD's idea that their is severe axial procession are mutually exclusive. 

In any gravitationally bound astronomical system, there must be balance.  The various bodies all naturally settle into a state where there is the least amount of chaos.  Prime examples of this are bodies falling into Lagrange points or a Laplace resonance.  While this appears at first glance to violate the Second Law, it is only accomplished by wild entropy, and even periods of stability are in fact only interludes to more entropy, as illustrated by Planetos.

I posit that LmL's idea of the comet impact/moon destruction and DD's idea of axial procession are in fact one in the same.  When our magical comet destroyed the magical moon (because it wouldn't have done so if it wasn't magical), this caused the sciencey part of the equation to be thrown out of wack: Planetos' moons and their equilibrium were thrown off, and as both the Ice Moon and Planetos seek to discover a new mutual barycenter, this would explain perfectly the axial procession and the out of wack seasons.  10,000 years is the blink of an eye in cosmological terms.  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the Planetos system hasn't found equilibrium again yet.

This also does not, however, rule out the dust cloud hypothesis.  They could certainly both have happened, and it is indeed likely that they did.  It is also distinctly possible that an upcoming long night does not need another dust cloud (though I am inclined to believe that the comet will hit again).  If axial procession gets bad enough, there is no reason to assume that Planetos couldn't do its best impression of Uranus and point one pole at the star.

Coming to the star brings up an interesting point.  We know that Planetos has a sun, but we know nothing about it.  If Planetos sun is at the upper end of what constitutes a habitable star, Planetos' orbital period could be significantly longer than that of Earth: it could be upward of three of our years for one of Planetos' orbitat periods (years).  It is entirely plausible that even one polar 'flop' could cause a Long Night scenario in which our Northern Hemisphere is entirely in the dark for a very long time.

Either way, there is IMO anyway, significant evidence to support LmL's idea.  There is also significant evidence to support DD's idea.  GRRM is clearly well read on orbital dynamics to have come up with this (assuming this isn't all a lucky fluke), and he could really go with either option to bring about the new Long Night, though I'm inclined to think that Chekov's Comet means more than just the birth of dragons.

No doubt. It could be both. I think having it be one is more elegant,and I like mine because it feels more unitary. That said, I do recognize the evidence that the comet is swinging back around the sun.

We have the first description back in Clash.

"The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky."

And then we have whatever it is that Barriston is seeing in Dance:

"A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound."

I go back and forth over whether or not I think that is the comet swinging back around the sun.

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After the Long Night, what if the Northern Hemisphere experienced much colder weathers than the South? The planet's axis has been titled in such a way that the Northern Hemisphere has been pushed away from the sun, and as a result the southern hemisphere has been bumped towards the sun?   As a result the Southern Hemisphere is hotter.

 

There's a line from TWOIAF:

Jaenara Belaerys was a woman from Valyria, who flew her dragon Terrax farther south of Sothoryos than anyone had ever gone before. She returned after three years, but found only endless jungle, deserts and mountains. Jaenara declared that Sothoryos was as large as Essos and "a land without end"

 

She didn't find any lands with snow in the southern hemipshere!

3 years is a huge amount of time. I think George has purposely made it 3 years instead of 1 year, because 3 years is enough to explore the Southern hemipshere as south as it goes on dragonback.

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After the Long Night, what if the Northern Hemisphere experienced much colder weathers than the South? The planet's axis has been titled in such a way that the Northern Hemisphere has been pushed away from the sun, and as a result the southern hemisphere has been bumped towards the sun?   As a result the Southern Hemisphere is hotter.

 

There's a line from TWOIAF:

Jaenara Belaerys was a woman from Valyria, who flew her dragon Terrax farther south of Sothoryos than anyone had ever gone before. She returned after three years, but found only endless jungle, deserts and mountains. Jaenara declared that Sothoryos was as large as Essos and "a land without end"

 

She didn't find any lands with snow in the southern hemipshere!

3 years is a huge amount of time. I think George has purposely made it 3 years instead of 1 year, because 3 years is enough to explore the Southern hemipshere as south as it goes on dragonback.

I was thinking about something like this, because if you have a Long Night that last 20 years, regardless of the angle of the tile, the axis has to stay tilted away from the sun for 20 years, as opposed to half a year as with a regular planet. It seems improbable, except that is what it says in the text that the season are caused by the length of the day, which is caused by the tilt of the planet, so if Bran has never seen a winter, the planet has been consistently tilted towards the sun for, 10 years or so.

I'm not sure if that explains Sothyros. My issue is that we don't know where the equator. It could be that do to Planetos being a bit of a super Earth, that equator is south of the the known map. That would  be consistent with Sothyros being a parallel for Africa. The equator crosses Africa at roughly the mid point north and south, not the top. So it makes since that if it is three years there and back, and she is flying more southeast than just south, she might find it to be a huge continent comparable with Essos and still not make into a temperate zone. Though honestly, you should still have some mountains with snow on them, right?

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Personally, I don't think your idea of the comet impact destroying the moon (with the requisite dust cloud) and DD's idea that their is severe axial procession are mutually exclusive. 

In any gravitationally bound astronomical system, there must be balance.  The various bodies all naturally settle into a state where there is the least amount of chaos.  Prime examples of this are bodies falling into Lagrange points or a Laplace resonance.  While this appears at first glance to violate the Second Law, it is only accomplished by wild entropy, and even periods of stability are in fact only interludes to more entropy, as illustrated by Planetos.

I posit that LmL's idea of the comet impact/moon destruction and DD's idea of axial procession are in fact one in the same.  When our magical comet destroyed the magical moon (because it wouldn't have done so if it wasn't magical), this caused the sciencey part of the equation to be thrown out of wack: Planetos' moons and their equilibrium were thrown off, and as both the Ice Moon and Planetos seek to discover a new mutual barycenter, this would explain perfectly the axial procession and the out of wack seasons.  10,000 years is the blink of an eye in cosmological terms.  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the Planetos system hasn't found equilibrium again yet.

This also does not, however, rule out the dust cloud hypothesis.  They could certainly both have happened, and it is indeed likely that they did.  It is also distinctly possible that an upcoming long night does not need another dust cloud (though I am inclined to believe that the comet will hit again).  If axial procession gets bad enough, there is no reason to assume that Planetos couldn't do its best impression of Uranus and point one pole at the star.

Coming to the star brings up an interesting point.  We know that Planetos has a sun, but we know nothing about it.  If Planetos sun is at the upper end of what constitutes a habitable star, Planetos' orbital period could be significantly longer than that of Earth: it could be upward of three of our years for one of Planetos' orbitat periods (years).  It is entirely plausible that even one polar 'flop' could cause a Long Night scenario in which our Northern Hemisphere is entirely in the dark for a very long time.

Either way, there is IMO anyway, significant evidence to support LmL's idea.  There is also significant evidence to support DD's idea.  GRRM is clearly well read on orbital dynamics to have come up with this (assuming this isn't all a lucky fluke), and he could really go with either option to bring about the new Long Night, though I'm inclined to think that Chekov's Comet means more than just the birth of dragons.

Let me ask you a question, Dinosaur-Killer: can axial tilt explain the Long Night occurring in Asshai? You'd have to have an almost perfectly 90 degrees tilt if Asshai is close to the equator, as it seems to be. 

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Let me ask you a question, Dinosaur-Killer: can axial tilt explain the Long Night occurring in Asshai? You'd have to have an almost perfectly 90 degrees tilt if Asshai is close to the equator, as it seems to be. 

If you look back at my response to Falco2908, it all just depends on where the equator is. Remembering that at one point George suggested that Planetos was a super Earth and noting Sothyros is a huge continent the size of Essos, all of it is tropical,  the equator could be south of the map we are given, as far a half way south of the northern tip of Sothyros to its southern tip. So yes, it could, though I am not sure Asshai needs to be in total darkness. If the equator is further north, like the southern edge of the map or as far north as Asshai or Valyria, then yes. it would need to be near 90 degrees to cover Asshai.

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Let me ask you a question, Dinosaur-Killer: can axial tilt explain the Long Night occurring in Asshai? You'd have to have an almost perfectly 90 degrees tilt if Asshai is close to the equator, as it seems to be. 

Well, no. 

 

The basic problem that we arrive at is that even with a tilted axis, you don't get one pole or the other always pointed at the sun.  If we consider a hypothetical planet whose axis of rotation is inclined 90* (for reference, Uranus is tilted 97*) to its orbit, and we then consider this hypothetical planet's year to begin when the north pole is pointed directly at its sun, we can track how axial tilt can affect a planets year.

 

After the planet has traveled through 90* (one quarter) of its orbital path, the equator will be pointed at the sun, with neither pole pointed at the sun.  After the hypothetical planet has traveled through 180* (one half) of its orbital path, the south pole would be pointed directly at the sun.  After traveling 270* through its orbital path, the equator would again be pointed at the sun, and when we've completed an orbit and arrived back at 0*, the north pole would again be pointed at the sun.

 

If we were to assume that Planetos orbits a star at the absolute upper end of what is considered habitable, an F0 to F2 star, this would place Planetos in a Ceres sized orbit around the star (Solaros?  Sunos?  Helios?), giving a threeish Earth year orbital period.  Even maximizing the effects of a 90* tilt to the planets rotational axis, you wouldn't be able to get more than about a "year and a half" of darkness at one pole or the other.  This is of course suspending disbelief and having the citizens of Planetos somehow having a 365 day year when in fact their year would be around 1000 days.  It also doesn't make sense and can't explain a years-long darkness if Planetos is an Earth analog that occupies a similar orbit to Earth, when darkness could be no more than six months long.

 

There is really no way to scientifically explain a long night by axial tilt alone.

 

I feel however that the axial tilt is a viable hypothesis to explain the seasons, which was in turn caused by the event that directly caused the long night: the loss of the stabilizing effect of the second moon on the rotation of Planetos.  With the loss of the second moon, it would take a very long time in human terms for Planetos and the Ice Moon to stabilize again.

 

I won't delve too deeply into the magical aspects of the destruction of Nissa Nissa, but in addition to the scientific causes of the Long Night based on her destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if the sudden overwhelming presence of the Ice Moon (Val?) had a hand in it as well.

But I'll leave that line of thought to brighter minds than mine. :)

 

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Well, no. 

 

The basic problem that we arrive at is that even with a tilted axis, you don't get one pole or the other always pointed at the sun.  If we consider a hypothetical planet whose axis of rotation is inclined 90* (for reference, Uranus is tilted 97*) to its orbit, and we then consider this hypothetical planet's year to begin when the north pole is pointed directly at its sun, we can track how axial tilt can affect a planets year.

 

After the planet has traveled through 90* (one quarter) of its orbital path, the equator will be pointed at the sun, with neither pole pointed at the sun.  After the hypothetical planet has traveled through 180* (one half) of its orbital path, the south pole would be pointed directly at the sun.  After traveling 270* through its orbital path, the equator would again be pointed at the sun, and when we've completed an orbit and arrived back at 0*, the north pole would again be pointed at the sun.

 

If we were to assume that Planetos orbits a star at the absolute upper end of what is considered habitable, an F0 to F2 star, this would place Planetos in a Ceres sized orbit around the star (Solaros?  Sunos?  Helios?), giving a threeish Earth year orbital period.  Even maximizing the effects of a 90* tilt to the planets rotational axis, you wouldn't be able to get more than about a "year and a half" of darkness at one pole or the other.  This is of course suspending disbelief and having the citizens of Planetos somehow having a 365 day year when in fact their year would be around 1000 days.  It also doesn't make sense and can't explain a years-long darkness if Planetos is an Earth analog that occupies a similar orbit to Earth, when darkness could be no more than six months long.

 

There is really no way to scientifically explain a long night by axial tilt alone.

 

I feel however that the axial tilt is a viable hypothesis to explain the seasons, which was in turn caused by the event that directly caused the long night: the loss of the stabilizing effect of the second moon on the rotation of Planetos.  With the loss of the second moon, it would take a very long time in human terms for Planetos and the Ice Moon to stabilize again.

 

I won't delve too deeply into the magical aspects of the destruction of Nissa Nissa, but in addition to the scientific causes of the Long Night based on her destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if the sudden overwhelming presence of the Ice Moon (Val?) had a hand in it as well.

But I'll leave that line of thought to brighter minds than mine. :)

 

So yes, I hear you. That is the way it should work in a scientific astronomical system. However, let’s look at we know or at least think we know. We appear to have a 365 day give or take year, as a 10 year old act like ten year olds and so forth. Actually they act a bit older, but that is a writing issue. We don’t need seasons to track years properly, maesters can just track the position of the sun against the stars. So let’s assume normal length year. Now let’s for sake of argument assume that during the past summer the planet has been at 21 to 23 degree tilt similar to Earths. It could be more or less. It doesn’t matter. Bran is I think 10 at the start of the story. It has been summer his whole life. We have it in writing that the summers and winters are cause by the length of the days as caused by the way the planet tilt toward or away from suns (not in those exact words, but more or less). Therefor the northern poll has been tilted towards the sun for roughly 10 years. This is not how thing are supposed to work astronomically. It’s almost like a tidal lock, but not a real tidal lock where the planet doesn’t rotate, but essentially the pole seems to be being pulled magically toward the sun. The orbit is like a top that has toppled over and is making a circle on the floor, with the upper part aimed consistently towards the center of the circle. That is not at all how planetary orbits are supposed to work. So Planetos is not behaving scientifically at all. The pole stay tilted toward the sun for 1, 5, 10 years or whatever, and then shifts back when magical forces dictate the season is over, and then it might tilt away for however long. This would seem to be true regardless of the angle. So , if it topple over to 60 to 90 degrees, we would expect it continue its weird unscientific behavior and keep the poll pointed away from the sun, like a marble rolling around inside of a shallow bowl with an orange at the center. Nope, it’s not how planets are supposed to behave. I am describing the physical movement, knowing damn well it isn’t scientific. It’s magic.

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George has confirmed that a Planetos year is roughly one earth year, so that's that, fwiw. 

Durran, I was missing a point you were making until just now. I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that because the days are observed to gradually shorten as winter approaches (as Jeor says) we can conclude that tilt is involved, because there is no other rational way for the days to shorten. I guess you're right about that, tilt has to be involved in the irregular seasons for this reason. So now we are back to what causes the tilt, since it's implied the seasons were at one time regular? Most likely this leads back to the comet / moon disaster... either that or the "giants in the earth" are just rocking the boat. :)

I'm telling you, go look at the scene where Bran and company are trying to make it up the hill into Leaf's cave, and imagine Hodor as the earth. I think there is something there for you. 

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George has confirmed that a Planetos year is roughly one earth year, so that's that, fwiw. 

Durran, I was missing a point you were making until just now. I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that because the days are observed to gradually shorten as winter approaches (as Jeor says) we can conclude that tilt is involved, because there is no other rational way for the days to shorten. I guess you're right about that, tilt has to be involved in the irregular seasons for this reason. So now we are back to what causes the tilt, since it's implied the seasons were at one time regular? Most likely this leads back to the comet / moon disaster... either that or the "giants in the earth" are just rocking the boat. :)

I'm telling you, go look at the scene where Bran and company are trying to make it up the hill into Leaf's cave, and imagine Hodor as the earth. I think there is something there for you. 

Well then, you have been quite generous. I'll m look up the Bran chapter.

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I'm telling you, go look at the scene where Bran and company are trying to make it up the hill into Leaf's cave, and imagine Hodor as the earth. I think there is something there for you. 

“Look, someone—” Hodor screamed.

He twisted, stumbled, fell. Bran felt the world slide sideways as the big stableboy spun violently around. A jarring impact drove the breath from him. His mouth was full of blood and Hodor was thrashing and rolling, crushing the crippled boy beneath him.

I see it. He flat out says the world slid sideways. I made a note. I'm not sure if I would use it to back my argument, but it sounds like I need to clarify my explanation of the mechanics.

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“Look, someone—” Hodor screamed.

He twisted, stumbled, fell. Bran felt the world slide sideways as the big stableboy spun violently around. A jarring impact drove the breath from him. His mouth was full of blood and Hodor was thrashing and rolling, crushing the crippled boy beneath him.

I see it. He flat out says the world slid sideways. I made a note. I'm not sure if I would use it to back my argument, but it sounds like I need to clarify my explanation of the mechanics.

Hodor is the world, and Bran is (and I'm not kidding in the slightest) the stallion who mounts the world. I'm not sure if you've heard me explain this one, Durran... Here's the very very short version. It goes back to the main inspiration for greenseers and weirwood trees - Odin and Yggdrasil. The word Yggdrasil can be translated several ways - it can mean "Odin's Horse" or "gallows tree." Odin himself hung on the tree for nine days  in order to "see the runes," which enabled him to do magic - specifically, astral projection. Odin also had an actual horse that was not the tree called slepnir, which also enabled him to perform astral projection. Additionally, the tree was also a part of Odin or a manifestation of Odin, and so he uttered the words "I sacrifice myself to myself." The Yggdrasil tree, then, is an astral-projection horse which is a tree and also a part of Odin himself. A weirwood is an astral projection tree which is a part of the greenseer, and it allows him to "mount the world," in the sense that his spirit can span the universe. 

The last bit relates to the horned lord and the stallion. The constellation known as the stallion in the south is called the horned lord in the north. In one scene, Jon watches the stallion mounts the sky, while in another the horned moon rides the sky, something like that. The "horned lord" is, I believe, a reference to Garth and the Green Men, the first greenseers who dropped the Hammer. They were the horned lords, and also the first "human" greenseers - the first stallions who mounted the world with astral projection trees. 

In other words, the reason the prophecy of the stallion who mounts terrified the Dothraki seeress is because the stallion is no Dothraki savior. His khalasar will cover the world, which arakhs shining like razor grass - sounds like Others with ghost grass swords - remember the ghost grass is like milkglass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. So that's what I belive she is seeing in that stallion prophecy, and that means Bran is essentially playing the role of stallion who mounts. Thus he is the one mounting Hodor as the world. 

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