Tower of Joy - Blood Sacrifice - Summerhall 2.0 (Spoilers All)

[Rob Twin Stark]

So, I haven't found any discussion about this  theory, maybe I'm the first to come up with it in that exact form, but if anyone have a link please post it!

 

 

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So one of the major problems with R+L=J is what happened in the Tower of Joy. People seem so adamant in thinking that R+L=J is 100% true that they tend to ignore a lot of the mess we know happened in the Tower. Here is a few things that sound off:

 

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1) Why the Kingsguard was on the Tower?

 

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So three of the best knights of Westeros, Arthur Dayne being the best, passed the whole war siting on their asses on the tower of joy... if they had gone with Rhaegar the war could have gone different, it would likely have gone different, those three would be a huge moral boost, we know(from the Kingswood Brotherhood) that Dayne was a great commander, and any of them could have killed Robert and ended the rebellion. The answer is that they were protecting the next king Jon! But that is very unconvincing, first the best way to protect Jon would have been in the Trident(you know neutralizing the threat that would want to destroy him...) Second, Jon would only be a bastard, even if they secretly marry, what is pure speculation, the next in line would be Aegon not Jon, so what the hell the Kingsguard is doing there???

 

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2) Why Lyanna was on Tower?

 

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So lets ignore all that was said before, and let imagine that they did marry, Jon is legitimate, and he is the prince that was promised and Rhaegar and the Kingsguard know it, and won't stop in nothing to protect him(even if it means risking: the war, the king and Aegon life on the process...) The problem with this theory is what the hell they are doing in the Tower of Joy??? If the intention is to protect Lyanna and the baby what are they doing in an exposed place like that? They could have gone to Dragonstone or any number of loyalist castles, and when they heard of Kings landing fall they could simply sailed the narrow see. I know they say: "the kingsguard do not flee" but that isn't actual a vow, fleeing is many times the best way to protect someone, staying in the Tower of Joy until inevitable Robert found them and killed them all, including the baby that they supposedly want to protect is a very odd and illogical behavior.    

 

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3) Why Ned only brought seven companions?

 

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Ned brought only seven of his most trusted best friends, that is very odd since he had a hole army to command, by doing that he was risking his life, his friends life's and Lyanna life, so he must had some good motive for doing it.

 

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4) Why there was a fight?

 

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If the Kingsguard truly intended in protecting Lyanna and the Baby, why would they fought Ned? Ned was a very honorable man that would never hurt his sister and his nephew, the Kingsguard must have know his reputation, and even if they didn't, they had a very reliable source inside the tower for the last months... Lyanna. And after all Lyanna was screaming: "NEEEDDD" from the tower.... it doesn't seam the Kingsguard had her best interest in mind...

 

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5) Why Ned destroyed the Tower?

 

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If the Tower of Joy is really only a love nest what the point in destroying it? To hide the birth of Jon? LOL, don't know what film you being watching but to hide a birth a bucket of water would do as good as destroying the tower... And besides how the hell did he bring the tower down?

 

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6) Why Ned only brought Lyanna body?

 

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So he leave behind the body of some of his best friends, and important lords at that, and even when he goes (suspiciously) too Starfall to deliver the Sword back to the Daynes he doesn't take Arthur body with him.

 

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7) Why no one ever suspects Jon of being Rhaegar son?

 

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Lyanna was with Rhaegar for months presumably having sex, presumably both being fertile, then Ned come to rescue her; NED the guy that would have the most interest in the world to protect a possible(likely) son of Lyanna, Ned come back from the rescue with a baby... so mega honor Ned that no one ever saw cheating during the entire war(and before) suddenly say he had a bastard... so imagine you are Robert, all that motivates you is battle and to recover your beloved Lyanna, but sadly you got badly hurt in the Trident so you have too remain in Kings Landing. Thankfully your best friend(Ned) goes south to deal with the lest loyalists and with luck retrieve your Lyanna. So after months of waiting where you have bean putting uncountable mean in the search of your beloved (including Varys) you finally hear the news: Lyanna has being found by Ned! She was kept as a prisoner in a tower for all this time protected by three kingsguard(odd that...) but she was dead. In complete unrelated news:: your best friend is coming back to Winterfell with a bastard(!!!). Since neither Robert (or anyone ) seems to suspect of anything the only likely conclusion is that they (the characters of the book) have information that is still unavailable for us that make clear that Jon isn't Lyanna son. GRRM has withheld that information with the smart intention of letting the reader thinking R+L=J is a viable option.  

 

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So Finally the Theory:

 

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We Know that the Birth of dragons requires:

 

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1) Fire: the great fire where Danny entered with the dragon eggs.

 

2) Blood: The blood of a lover(Drogo) and of the fruit of this love (Rhaego).

 

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We know that in Summerhall they tried to give birth to dragons but something went wrong and all ended in a fiery caos. We also know that Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day of the tragedy, and that he had a obsession for Summerhall and presumably the birth of dragons.

 

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So Rhaegar intentions in the tower of joy seems to be the creation of Summerhall 2.0, he was realizing a blood ritual, he intended to sacrifice Lyanna and her baby in a fiery ritual, just like Danny ended up doing in our timeline. So that why the Kingsguard was on the Tower, because the ritual and the consequent birth of dragons was more important than the war, that why they didn't take Lyanna to a safe place(they couldn't the ritual was on progress),  that is why they fight Ned, their intention was opposite to his, that why Ned only brought seven trusted friends; because he knew something sinister was going on. The tower ended up destroyed due to wildfire, just like we saw happening with Cersei in the tower of the hand.

 

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A possible reply to the theory is: "Rhaegar and the Kingsguard would never ever ever have done this!" And I say; yes they would. Rhaegar is a sinister man, (Barristan: "It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly."), he is obsessed with Summerhall, and we really don't know much of him. We know a lot about Egg, and he was a great guy! But even so he ended up creating Summerhall... Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent are from some of the most mysterious and magic connect families out there, and Arthur Dayne is Rhaegar best friend, likely would have agree with any of Rhaegar plans. Besides that narrative is so much more interesting and look much more GRRM stile than Jon being the "hidden prince" fruit of the "forbidden love".

 

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So for this Theory to be true R+L=J doesn't need to be necessarily false, but R+L=D sounds better. Rhaegar born in Summerhall in the day of the tragedy(blood ritual), Danny was born in the Tower of Joy in the day of the tragedy(blood ritual), and she is the one that end up finally completing the sacrifice and giving birth to the dragons.

[sarah.jenice]

In complete unrelated news:: your best friend is cumming back to Winterfell with a bastard(!!!). 

 

Was this intentional? Probably not but amusing nonetheless. Welcome to the forum, and please forgive me for being so damn immature. It's a short work week, which for some reason is hell on my ADHD brain.

If your OP is true, Rhaegar is a bigger dick than I previously imagined. Ned says Rhaegar's the one who called the place the Tower of Joy. I guess that's how he lulled Lyanna into a false sense of security. "Oh don't worry, Ly-Ly, these nice knights of the kingsguard are escorting us to the Tower of Joy, where I will definitely not make a bonfire outta you and our baby. The dragon's just gotta have three heads, silly."

[Rob Twin Stark]

Thanks!

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It was not intentional, lol.

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Yeah, for the blood ritual to work it probably needs true love( like with Danny and Drogo), so I suppose that  Rhaegar had to seduce Lyanna.

[sarah.jenice]

Dude plays a harp.

Pretty, broody prince+harp+starry-eyed teenage girl=that was so easy it didn't even require me to buy dinner

[Maxxine]

I always like hearing opposition to R+L=J because I always wonder if I only believe it because I heard the theory, then read the series in a way to fit the theory. But I still believe R+L=J so I guess I'll offer some counter to your points. First off, I think it's really hard to speculate about anything regarding the Tower of Joy because the only thing we actually have regarding it is the broken memories of Ned's.

1) The Kingsguard is at the Tower of Joy because that is where Rhaegar told them to be. They were following orders. That's it. True, they would have been better used at the Trident, but they were just following the orders they were given. I think you can ask the question as to why they were listening to Rhaegar (the prince) instead of the Mad Kind, but that's a different discussion.

2) I believe Rhaegar thought the TOJ was unknown to most people and it would be hard to find. If he hides her at a castle, then everyone knows where she is and the castle can come under siege or stormed or there could even be a traitor within the castle. At the TOJ, you only have these issues if someone actually finds out where it is.

3) Ned didn't think he needed to bring a whole army for 3 guys, even if they were the best knights in the kingdom. You have to think this was the end of the war. Maybe he should've brought a few more, but a whole army wasn't necessary.

4) Once again, following orders. Rhaegar may have given order for the Kingsguard not to let anyone in, regardless of if it was Ned and to fight to the death if need be.

5) I'll be honest I don't have a reason for that. Maybe it was purely symbolic and he wanted to destroy the place Lyanna died since it could only have bad memories.

6) They were only 2 people left to carry the bodies back. There were 9 bodies (the 3 KG, the 5 Ned brought, & Lyanna). It had to be difficult to carry this one body back, let alone 8 more.

7) I think it just part of the lie Ned told everyone. Edric Dayne says it was Ashara's baby, so lie would be he took the baby once he left Starfall after giving back the sword. Jon's other rumored mother, Wylla, is also in Starfall so the lie still works. The other rumor is the mother near White Harbor. He just as easily could've stopped there on the way back to Winterfell to get the baby. So the lie still works. People saw it as Ned came back from war with a bastard, not that he came back TOJ with a bastard.

My counter for your theory even though I do find it interesting is if Rhaegar believed he was the prince that was promised and was going to hatch dragons, why would he leave and risk his life. He would presumably be the only one who could ride the dragons and if he dies then the prophecy dies with him. If this was actually what he was trying to do, it wouldn't make sense for him to leave. It would have been better to send the remaining KG. R+J=D doesn't really seem to work either because if that's true how did Ned get Dany to Viserys on Dragonstone. Also Viserys and others seems to have memories of Dany being born on Dragonstorm and there's no indication that this fact has even been called into question.

On another note, when I first heard about R+L=J, I thought the same about why does it matter because he would still be a bastard. Just someone else's bastard. This is why I think they were actually married & Jon is legitimate. Otherwise, it serves no purpose.

[Rob Twin Stark]

1) The question is WHY Rhaegar told them to stay there? The only two possible reason to let three of the best knights (and possible of the best commanders) of Westeros behind  is either because he think they weren't needed, or because they had something more important to do in the Tower of Joy. In this point Robert had already won multiple battles and things weren't looking good for the loyalists, so it can't be because Rhaegar underestimated Robert.  And what would be more important than the war and couldn't be interrupted? a ritual.   

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2) The Tower of Joy is a good place to hide his relation with her, but not that good for protecting her. The Tower would be founded sooner or later Rhaegar and the Kingsguard surely new it. But they stayed there even after the fall of Kings Landing... if they really wanted to protect Lyanna and the baby they would have run.

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3) I didn't mean he would bring the whole army, but he could have brought 30 or 40 people.  

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4) The Kingsguard are not a bunch of Robots... if Rhaegar ordered them to not let anyone in until he gets back, when they hear of Rhaegar death they would have come with a new plan; most likely to get the hell out of there. 

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5) But even if he wanted to destroy the Tower, only because of "bad memories", how would he do it? Wildfire seams the most likely explanation. 

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6) They could have send people from Starfall to take the body's backs... unless there were no body's!

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Notice that Rhaegar didn't leave the tower until the end of the war, until there was no other choice, he was probably trying to finish the ritual before going to battle. About R+L=D I don't want to enter in much detail about it, but Danny memories of the red door house(with a lemon tree) seam to suggest that  she past part of her infancy in Dorne(you know the place just outside the tower of joy...) .

[Maxxine]

1) I think there is another reason you're disregarding. If he truly loved Lyanna and his unborn child, he may have wanted to protect them even if it meant there was less protection for himself. Or, even if he didn't truly love them, he thought the unborn child would be fulfillment of the prince that was promised prophesy. So he would have had reason to keep them there to protect the prince that was promised.

2) Well if Lyanna was pregnant and far along in her pregnancy, it's possible she couldn't travel and that is why they didn't leave. Also just as written in the OP, the KG doesn't run. While I agree with you it's stupid to be literal about this saying when it was smarter to run. But it's not like we haven't seen characters due stupid thing for the sake of the their honor (see Ned & Robb).

3) He could have. Or he thought 7 on 3 would be enough. I believe he thought he had great warriors too. Also traveling is faster with 7 than 30 or 40. This may also have been a consideration.

4) See 2. Also are we sure they knew of Rhaegar's death? Was there a maester receiving ravens or a messenger giving them news? Because it seems like the TOJ is in the middle of nowhere, so it's possible they didn't know until they saw Ned. Like I said, there are a lot of things we don't know.

5) Like I said before, I really don't have an explanation for how brought the tower down. And it may be the thing lacking in my argument. Reed was there and somehow his castle moves so maybe he has some type of magic. I really don't know.

6) How far is Starfall from TOJ. How long is it going to take the people from Starfall to get to TOJ and what's going on with the bodies until then. There in the middle of the desert so the bodies are going to decompose quickly. You want Ned to bury them, then send someone else to dig them back up and transport them. Seems like a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong on my timeline, but the Battle of the Trident happened before the Sack of KL and before the siege at Storms End was broken and it doesn't seem like Lyanna gives birth until Ned gets there so I don't know if he had no choice. If his main concern is the ritual and hatching dragons, seems like he would've stayed. I do believe Dany is remembering something incorrectly point since there are no lemon trees in Braavos. But that doesn't mean she was born in Dorne. She's not going to remember herself as a baby. So I would say she is at least 4 when she's with the red door and lemon  tree. Like I said before how did Ned get her there without anyone knowing and how do you explain all the people who know she was born on Dragonstone. Btw, I have seen others with some form of this theory. Sorry I can't remember where. I believe it was somewhere on this site. Like in a reply to one of the threads.

[BalerionTheCat]

OP, your questions and remarks are good one. The proposed answers are a start, but IMHO there is more to that. There are many other strange things: Lyanna's attitude at Harrendal, Rhaegar doing everything wrong from abduction to his death ...

R+L=J is true. I cannot see otherwise. But I believe both Rhaegar, Lyanna and the KG were acting to fulfill a prophecy. “And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ.

[Rob Twin Stark]

1) Like I said if Rhaegar wanted to protect Lyanna and the baby the best way would have been to win the war. Also if he feared he would fail and wanted to have someone to protect her the best course of action would be to send her to Dragonstone(a castle full of Targaryen loyalists) maybe with one Kingsguard, or with some mens-at-arms with the fallowing instruction: "if something happens to me(Rhaegar ) take Lyanna and the baby across the Narrow sea and keep them safe!".

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2) Yes she was in labor in the moment Ned reached the Tower, but in that point Rhaegar was dead for at lest a few months, they had all that time to run way. And as I said "The KG doesn't flee" isn't a actual vow!!! Their vow is to protect the king and obey the king , if R+L=J is true and Jon is now king(assuming they were married) So their first obligation would be to protect Jon at all costs, not to sit in the Tower of Joy and wait his inevitable death.

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3) He had no way of knowing how many would be in the Tower, there could be dozens of Targ Loyalists for all he knew. And even if he somehow knew it was only the three, there must be a very good reason for him to risk, his life, his friends life and Lyanna life, since Ned must know that he would be facing three of the deadliest man in Westeros.

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4) I'm pretty sure they knew of Rhaegar death. Just look for the conversation in the Tower of Joy... this is not the kind of conversation you have when you are hearing about the fall of the Targ for the first time, they clearly talk with Ned like they new all about it already. They stayed months in the Tower, they surely had to go to close town from time to time to buy supplies. 

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5) If they would use something as dangerous as magic to destroy a tower I would expect good reason for it. Wildfire would be the simplest explanation.

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6) Starfall is pretty close, and decomposition of the corpses wouldn't be a problem since they would only need the bones. And to have the bones of you dead relative is quite the big deal in these world, there is really no good reason for not seeding someone to take them back.  

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After the Trident the Targaryan were pretty much doomed, yes there were some minor battles after that, but the war was already decided. Rhaegar must have know that the Trident was the only chance to save his crown, if he stayed and completed the ritual it wouldn't help him since three baby dragons couldn't save Targ after the Trident and the subsequent fall of Kings Landing. I believe that Ned takes Danny to Starfall where they hide her for a few year(the Red Door memories come from that period), only  after that she is taken across the narrow see to be with Viserys. For more information on that theory see  Preston Jacobs video on the subject(I don't agree with everything) but he do make a good case:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc  

[Rob Twin Stark]

Yes there are other things I didn't mention, the text was getting too large already, like I said to my theory to be true R+L=J doesn't need to be wrong necessarily but it works better with Danny since her is the one to give birth to Dragons. And there are other points that make me believe R+L=J can't be true like the Promise and the fact the Jon don't have any Targ features.     

[Maxxine]

Yes there are other things I didn't mention, the text was getting too large already, like I said to my theory to be true R+L=J doesn't need to be wrong necessarily but it works better with Danny since her is the one to give birth to Dragons. And there are other points that make me believe R+L=J can't be true like the Promise and the fact the Jon don't have any Targ features.     

I actually think I saw this before. It's been a while though (even though I don't think I believed it then either ). But, I think this is an interesting conversation & I'll take another look at it.

[Rob Twin Stark]

 

I actually think I saw this before. It's been a while though (even though I don't think I believed it then either ). But, I think this is an interesting conversation & I'll take another look at it.

See Preston Jacobs videos on the Tower of the Joy for more information, it is quite convincing. Especially the R+L=D part, the B+A=J I'm not that sure about. 

[sweetsunray]

1) The question is WHY Rhaegar told them to stay there? The only two possible reason to let three of the best knights (and possible of the best commanders) of Westeros behind  is either because he think they weren't needed, or because they had something more important to do in the Tower of Joy. In this point Robert had already won multiple battles and things weren't looking good for the loyalists, so it can't be because Rhaegar underestimated Robert.  And what would be more important than the war and couldn't be interrupted? a ritual.  

There is a third reason - if the kingsguard returned with Rhaegar to King's Landing and Aerys ordered them to tell where they were, stuff about Lyanna, etc, then they are bound to answer the king truthfully. If they remain at the ToJ, the king can't interrogate them and they can't answer him.

2) The Tower of Joy is a good place to hide his relation with her, but not that good for protecting her. The Tower would be founded sooner or later Rhaegar and the Kingsguard surely new it. But they stayed there even after the fall of Kings Landing... if they really wanted to protect Lyanna and the baby they would have run.

• It is not know how long it took before the KG heard news of King's Landing falling. It's entirely possible they learned of Rhaegar's death and King's Landing falling through Ned himself.
• Lyanna is 8 to 8.5 months pregnant at the time of the sack. And if she had just delivered and was feverish there's no way they'd drop her on a horse, push her to ride as hard as she can through the passes, cancyons and desert heat, with a newborn.
• Lyanna was not in labor at the time of Ned's arrival. The fever indicates post-birth complications, such as puerperal fever which normally takes about 7-10 days to end in death from blood poisoning. The baby was about a week old when Ned arrived. 
• On top of that, Lyanna may have had trouble carrying, and midwives or a maester there ordered her stay put and the kingsguard that she could not be moved for fear of a miscarriage.

3) I didn't mean he would bring the whole army, but he could have brought 30 or 40 people.  

The more people, the more witnesses. Someone informed Ned where to find Lyanna, and the informer may even have known of a child coming/born.

4) The Kingsguard are not a bunch of Robots... if Rhaegar ordered them to not let anyone in until he gets back, when they hear of Rhaegar death they would have come with a new plan; most likely to get the hell out of there. 

Personally, I disagree with the interpretation of Ned's dream that the fight occurred before Ned met Lyanna. There are several clues that can be interpreted that the KG allowed Ned to visit Lyanna, that she died, that "they" found him, and then the conflict arises between the sole guardian (relative) and the KG feeling they are sworn to the baby.

5) But even if he wanted to destroy the Tower, only because of "bad memories", how would he do it? Wildfire seams the most likely explanation. 

It's a tower built from rough stones, probably weathered, not a concrete building. Two men, and lots of horses. Horses can pull a lot of weight.

6) They could have send people from Starfall to take the body's backs... unless there were no body's!

Check the map... ToJ is not just a day's ride away from Starfall. It would probably take at least a week to ride one way. So, that's at least two weeks before they return for the next pick-up. How many would be left of those bodies with carrion eaters, wild cats and other wild animals roaming the mountains.

Sorry, but Preston Jacob's theory with regards to Dany's parentage has been debunked hundred times over up here on the forums.

[Rob Twin Stark]

"There is a third reason - if the kingsguard returned with Rhaegar to King's Landing and Aerys ordered them to tell where they were, stuff about Lyanna, etc, then they are bound to answer the king truthfully. If they remain at the ToJ, the king can't interrogate them and they can't answer him."

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The logical course of action would be to go with Rhaegar to the Trident. 

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• "It is not know how long it took before the KG heard news of King's Landing falling. It's entirely possible they learned of Rhaegar's death and King's Landing falling through Ned himself.
• Lyanna is 8 to 8.5 months pregnant at the time of the sack. And if she had just delivered and was feverish there's no way they'd drop her on a horse, push her to ride as hard as she can through the passes, cancyons and desert heat, with a newborn.
• Lyanna was not in labor at the time of Ned's arrival. The fever indicates post-birth complications, such as puerperal fever which normally takes about 7-10 days to end in death from blood poisoning. The baby was about a week old when Ned arrived. "

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Lyanna was not 8/8.5 pregnant. After the sack Ned goes to Storm's End and after that he go to the Tower, this travel by land, especially the first half of it,  where Ned was traveling with a Army would have taken weeks. Add the time Ned passed searching for Lyanna in the mountains of Dorne and it is more likely Lyanna was 4 or 6 months pregnant at the time of the sack. News of the loss in the battle of the trident would reach them very quickly(you know ravens!) assuming they needed to go resupply in nearby town from time to time. Dude look the conversation on the Tower of Joy:

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“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

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This is not the conversation you have with a person that don't have heard of the events in question. They CLEARLY new about the Trident and of Kings Landing. Ned found her in a "bed of blood" that sound like labor to me. Why would there be blood if she died of fever? 

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"It's a tower built from rough stones, probably weathered, not a concrete building. Two men, and lots of horses. Horses can pull a lot of weight."

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That is a big stretch, even if true why would they do it? It would take a LOT of work to do it with horses.  

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"Check the map... ToJ is not just a day's ride away from Starfall. It would probably take at least a week to ride one way. So, that's at least two weeks before they return for the next pick-up. How many would be left of those bodies with carrion eaters, wild cats and other wild animals roaming the mountains."

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Ned supposedly give the body's a burial, so "wild cats" wouldn't be a problem. 

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"Sorry, but Preston Jacob's theory with regards to Dany's parentage has been debunked hundred times over up here on the forums."

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Disagree, more likely Preston Jacob's debunked R+L=J with his videos. 

 

 

[mediterraneo]

I'm not particularily fanatic of the Rhaegar and Lyanna undying love but...

If it was indeed a blood sacrifice, why was it committed without Rhaegar and after the dinasty was broken, and the Kingsguard had actually no king to guard?
Lyanna wasn't clearly dieing of a wound she suffered weeks before, when Rhaegar was there for the last time.

Cheers.

[Light a wight tonight]

 

See Preston Jacobs videos on the Tower of the Joy for more information, it is quite convincing. Especially the R+L=D part, the B+A=J I'm not that sure about. 

Citing Preston Jacobs on this forum won't win many converts to a theory. He has very little cred among the hardcore membership.

[Rob Twin Stark]

I'm not particularily fanatic of the Rhaegar and Lyanna undying love but...

If it was indeed a blood sacrifice, why was it committed without Rhaegar and after the dinasty was broken, and the Kingsguard had actually no king to guard?
Lyanna wasn't clearly dieing of a wound she suffered weeks before, when Rhaegar was there for the last time.

Cheers.

It hard to know the details, but likely Rhaegar commanded them to finish the Ritual, when they heard of Rhaegar death and the fall of the Targ's maybe they tought that the best way (maybe the only way)  for Viserys to recover his birthright was with dragons. 

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What make you think that she died from a wound? 

[Rob Twin Stark]

Citing Preston Jacobs on this forum won't win many converts to a theory. He has very little cred among the hardcore membership.

He takes his Theory's to ridiculous heights, but most of his logic, especially in the beginning is solid. His Tower of Joy theory is not absurd like his later Theory's(The Others are Aliens and etc). And his criticism of R+L=J is spot on, and his defense of R+L=D is pretty good , his B+A=J is much more forced....  

[sweetsunray]

 

The logical course of action would be to go with Rhaegar to the Trident. 

Not if bringing the KG to the Trident means taking them to KL first and the mad king can order them to tell where they were and ask about Lyanna, and she ends up as a hostage, or have the likes of Varys know about her whereabouts (and Varys obviously worked against Rhaegar). Without the king there at the ToJ, they must follow the orders of Rhaegar, as long as those orders do not go against their main vows. Since there are 4 other KG at KL, they can be ordered to remain to guard and defend Lyanna and her child who is otherwise without any guards left at the ToJ. 

Lyanna was not 8/8.5 pregnant. After the sack Ned goes to Storm's End and after that he go to the Tower, this travel by land, especially the first half of it,  where Ned was traveling with a Army would have taken weeks. Add the time Ned passed searching for Lyanna in the mountains of Dorne and it is more likely Lyanna was 4 or 6 months pregnant at the time of the sack. News of the loss in the battle of the trident would reach them very quickly(you know ravens!) assuming they needed to go resupply in nearby town from time to time. Dude look the conversation on the Tower of Joy:

You don't know how Ned traveled to the ToJ. He could have gone by boat. And of course, Tyrion manages to travel from WF to the Trident in 2 weeks. So, I wouldn't rely on "that's impossible" for the time passage of Ned's travels. There is no nearby town in the red mountains. As for the convo. It's a dream! George has emphasized to not take the dream literal, because it's a dream and dreams are symbolical. It's not a literaly convo. Could you also please not call me 'dude'. I don't find that a respectful address of another person, let alone a woman.

This is not the conversation you have with a person that don't have heard of the events in question. They CLEARLY new about the Trident and of Kings Landing. Ned found her in a "bed of blood" that sound like labor to me. Why would there be blood if she died of fever? 

It's not any conversation you would ever have with any person when awake. It's a dream synopsis of the actual convo that took place. No, they do not clearly know about the Trident and King's Landing. They are simply responding to the info that Ned gives them.

Bed of Blood is an expression to a birthing bed, even post-birthing bed. It doesn't mean her bed is bloody. She is weakened from fever. This is explicitly mentioned by Ned in his memory of her dying. One of the most typical complications until well in the first half of the 20 century is puerperal fever. One of the Henry VIII's wife died from it. If a woman is helped during delivery with unsterilized hands and tools, she is sure to contract a bacterial infection. The uterus is an open wound and needs a while to heal. So, the bacterias can get right into the bloodstream. Fever implies sepsis. And puerperal fever can also cause hemmorhages. Following quote is from Eddard's first chapter in the first book, down in the crypts while talking to Robert.

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.(aGoT, Eddard I)

I don't mind making mistakes (I make them too), but can I advize you asearchofiiceandfire to make sure you don't argue against canon material of the aSoIaF books.

That is a big stretch, even if true why would they do it? It would take a LOT of work to do it with horses.  

Less work than by hand.

Ned supposedly give the body's a burial, so "wild cats" wouldn't be a problem. 

To bury bodies in stony mountains (the red mountains and passes are pretty much described coparable to the grand canyon)  you need stones to build a type of cairn. The way Ned buried them, yes, he needed to take the tower down, to have the stones to bury the bodies in cairns and prevent wild animals from getting to them.

In the scenario you proposed of them going to and fro to take bodies to Starfall, they need to leave bodies exposed.

Disagree, more likely Preston Jacob's debunked R+L=J with his videos. 

roll eyes. He used to be a member here and posted his theories here. He couldn't handle the counter arguments and so started his youtube channel. BTW perhaps you should read the 156 threads on R+L=J to read all the argumentation pro and contra to it, before you claim how Preston Jacobs debunked it

[Rob Twin Stark]

 

Not if bringing the KG to the Trident means taking them to KL first and the mad king can order them to tell where they were and ask about Lyanna, and she ends up as a hostage, or have the likes of Varys know about her whereabouts (and Varys obviously worked against Rhaegar). Without the king there at the ToJ, they must follow the orders of Rhaegar, as long as those orders do not go against their main vows. Since there are 4 other KG at KL, they can be ordered to remain to guard and defend Lyanna and her child who is otherwise without any guards left at the ToJ. 

 

They could go to the Trident without going to Kings Landing easy enough. Letting three Kingsguard protecting the Tower of Joy would mean jack shit if Rhaegar lost in the Trident, in other hand three of the greatest  knights on Westeros could have made a huge difference in the battle. It not as Rhaegar don't have other friends he could have send Lyanna to any loyalist castle until his return, with orders to ship her to the Narrow Sea in case he died. 

 

roll eyes. He used to be a member here and posted his theories here. He couldn't handle the counter arguments and so started his youtube channel. BTW perhaps you should read the 96 threads on R+L=J to read all the argumentation pro and contra to it, before you claim how Preston Jacobs debunked it

A read most of the counter argument and I'm not convinced. People fallow R+L=J as a religion, it will be a busy day in hell when GRRM reveals the "truth", lol. Never saw a good counter argument to "Promise", the explanation Ned suddenly realized that Jon is in danger in the wall is laughably. The timeline is too confused, so it can't disprove the either theory. The only good counter is about how Ned wouldn't have to lie if Jon was Brandon son, but I don't believe he is, so down go that. If there is a argument that proves R+L=D as wrong please, post it, I'm not aware of it.  

 

  

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