Mistakes/Contradictions in the books?

[Joy Hill]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is that really a mistake or could it be either a nuanced or evolved opinion by Jaime's character? 

It could be. Or maybe it's the amnesia everyone suffers from when it comes to LF.

[HexMachina]

31 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

It could be. Or maybe it's the amnesia everyone suffers from when it comes to LF.

It's two entirely different circumstances too. AGOT Robert is still King, Cersei and Jaime are creeping around him, and the Lannisters are pushing to gain power. AFFC needs the realm to heal and rebuild, and the Lannisters need their power propping up. LF is ideal for the latter scenario, insofar as he has shown skill increasing incomes etc. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The George has a big problem with scale throughout the book (check size of Grest Pyramid and number of coins Sandor had stuffed in his pockets). But, heh, it's a fantasy. 

Well, I guess the coinage problem is easily resolved if we assume that not all golden dragons are just worth one golden dragon. I mean, if they have coins, they could also stamp numbers on them - granted, we don't know that this is the case but it would be a way to explain this whole thing. But it doesn't help explain away the idea of the insane amount of money the winner of the tourney was getting in the first place.

If we take THK as a basis you can most likely buy yourself a big castle and quite a lot of land with that amount of coin.

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is that really a mistake or could it be either a nuanced or evolved opinion by Jaime's character? 

That is a mistake on George's part. Jaime does not interact with Littlefinger between his flight from KL and his new assessment of his character in AFfC, and it makes little sense to assume that Jaime would no longer consider Littlefinger an enemy but a harmless guy without they ever interacting.

The impression Jaime gives in AGoT is that he has actually seen through Littlefinger's facade and realized that the man is ambitious, dangerous, and his (and Cersei's) enemy. If that was his opinion of the petty lord Petyr Baelish while he was just Master of Coin one should assume that he would have been much more wary of the same guy while he was Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Lord Protector of the Vale of Arryn.

Back in AGoT Littlefinger had no real power, but in AFfC he actually does wield considerable in his own right, and only a fool would assume that the Lords of the Vale would be inclined to obey King Tommen if Littlefinger urged them to do otherwise.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It's two entirely different circumstances too. AGOT Robert is still King, Cersei and Jaime are creeping around him, and the Lannisters are pushing to gain power. AFFC needs the realm to heal and rebuild, and the Lannisters need their power propping up. LF is ideal for the latter scenario, insofar as he has shown skill increasing incomes etc. 

Jaime counts Littlefinger among 'his enemies' in AGoT. He is in the same category as Stannis and Renly. Littlefinger doesn't seem to be just some nuisance in his mind they have to be cautious around to hide the incest. Jaime sees him as a threat to their ambition.

If that was the case while the Lannisters were still trying seize more and more power at Robert's court (by plotting against Renly and Stannis) it really makes no sense to ever consider such a rival/enemy as some harmless guy later on when you try to consolidate your power. No one considering the apparently powerless Littlefinger would ever entertain the idea of making him the new Hand. It would hand way too much real power to guy who has already risen as high as Littlefinger had at that point.

It would only make sense if Jaime had completely forgotten what he had said back in AGoT. But that doesn't make much sense in light of the fact that Jaime's assessment of Littlefinger during the conversation with Cersei seems to be based on his interaction/experience with the man during their time at court. Jaime might not be the smartest man on earth but he is in constant contact with the powerful courtiers surrounding the king and has thus the necessarily tools to recognize an ambitious lickspittle when he sees one.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess the coinage problem is easily resolved if we assume that not all golden dragons are just worth one golden dragon. I mean, if they have coins, they could also stamp numbers on them - granted, we don't know that this is the case but it would be a way to explain this whole thing.

I think this is unlikely. In medieval times, each coin had the value of the amount of metal it contained. A coin stamped with a "20" should have 20 times the amount of metal than a coin stamped with a "1". 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess the coinage problem is easily resolved if we assume that not all golden dragons are just worth one golden dragon. I mean, if they have coins, they could also stamp numbers on them - granted, we don't know that this is the case but it would be a way to explain this whole thing. But it doesn't help explain away the idea of the insane amount of money the winner of the tourney was getting in the first place.

If we take THK as a basis you can most likely buy yourself a big castle and quite a lot of land with that amount of coin.

That is a mistake on George's part. Jaime does not interact with Littlefinger between his flight from KL and his new assessment of his character in AFfC, and it makes little sense to assume that Jaime would no longer consider Littlefinger an enemy but a harmless guy without they ever interacting.

The impression Jaime gives in AGoT is that he has actually seen through Littlefinger's facade and realized that the man is ambitious, dangerous, and his (and Cersei's) enemy. If that was his opinion of the petty lord Petyr Baelish while he was just Master of Coin one should assume that he would have been much more wary of the same guy while he was Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Lord Protector of the Vale of Arryn.

Back in AGoT Littlefinger had no real power, but in AFfC he actually does wield considerable in his own right, and only a fool would assume that the Lords of the Vale would be inclined to obey King Tommen if Littlefinger urged them to do otherwise.

Sorry. HelenaExMachina has the right of it. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sorry. HelenaExMachina has the right of it. 

Nope.

7 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I think this is unlikely. In medieval times, each coin had the value of the amount of metal it contained. A coin stamped with a "20" should have 20 times the amount of metal than a coin stamped with a "1". 

I know. But then - if Sandor had nearly 40,000 golden dragons with him, and if we assume that he could not have possibly 40,000 gold coins, then this is the only way to make sense of that whole thing.

[SeanF]

Sorry. HelenaExMachina has the right of it.

Nope.

I think this is unlikely. In medieval times, each coin had the value of the amount of metal it contained. A coin stamped with a "20" should have 20 times the amount of metal than a coin stamped with a "1".

I know. But then - if Sandor had nearly 40,000 golden dragons with him, and if we assume that he could not have possibly 40,000 gold coins, then this is the only way to make sense of that whole thing.

IMHO, the prizes should have been 1% or less of the figures given.

In The Hedge Knight, one dragon = one pound sterling in about 1400 seems to work well enough. That would make a stag worth a bit more than a silver penny.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Another contradiction that occurs to me. In ACOK, Theon says his first sexual partner was the Brewer's Wife. In ADWD, it's a girl on a quilted blanket (and thus very unlikely to be a married woman).

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, the prizes should have been 1% or less of the figures given.

In The Hedge Knight, one dragon = one pound sterling in about 1400 seems to work well enough. That would make a stag worth a bit more than a silver penny.

Yeah, the impression we get is that you can live a decent life with silver alone. The idea that Anguy could have spent 10,000 dragons in such a short amount of time is pretty insane, too. I mean, Chataya's is an expensive place, but even there the average whore shouldn't cost dragons. Rosey's maiden head costs a dragon in AFfC, but that's a rather special case. It is her maidenhead and she is, as far as we know, no whore but an innkeeper's daughter, and The Quill and Tankard doesn't look like a place which specializes (or includes) prostitution on a regular basis.

Even if Anguy had to pay 1-2 dragons for each stay at Chataya's he should have had coin for 10,000-5,000 days. But he was broke much earlier than that.

[SeanF]

IMHO, the prizes should have been 1% or less of the figures given.

In The Hedge Knight, one dragon = one pound sterling in about 1400 seems to work well enough. That would make a stag worth a bit more than a silver penny.

Yeah, the impression we get is that you can live a decent life with silver alone. The idea that Anguy could have spent 10,000 dragons in such a short amount of time is pretty insane, too. I mean, Chataya's is an expensive place, but even there the average whore shouldn't cost dragons. Rosey's maiden head costs a dragon in AFfC, but that's a rather special case. It is her maidenhead and she is, as far as we know, no whore but an innkeeper's daughter, and The Quill and Tankard doesn't look like a place which specializes (or includes) prostitution on a regular basis.

Even if Anguy had to pay 1-2 dragons for each stay at Chataya's he should have had coin for 10,000-5,000 days. But he was broke much earlier than that.

Unless he has an uncontrollable gambling habit.

Otherwise, I'm sure you could buy a couple of manors with that money, and still have change. 40,000 dragons would probably get you as much land as someone like Rohanne Webber.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Unless he has an uncontrollable gambling habit.

Otherwise, I'm sure you could buy a couple of manors with that money, and still have change. 40,000 dragons would probably get you as much land as someone like Rohanne Webber.

Well, even if you gamble you have to find somebody to meet your bets. But, yeah, gambling and thieves could have been the reason why he lost his money as quickly as he did.

Perhaps even more land, if you looked for it at the right places. I mean, there are hints that the Starks don't even have gold down in their treasuries, only silver, so you might actually be able to buy as much land as one of the great Northern lords with so much coin.

Down in the South the price for land may be much higher, not to mention that you might not get permission to raise a castle if you are neither a knight nor a lord.

But anyone in his right mind winning such an amount of money would first buy himself a manse in the city and some servants before he would end up looking for whores.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of dogs and masks and whispete. It's very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden trice that long. (AFFC, Cat of the Canals)

 

Sealord Uthero Zalyne put an end to that secrecy, sending forth his ships to every corner of the world to proclaim the existence and location of Braavos, and invite men of all nations to celebrate the 111th festival of the city's founding. (TWOIAF, The Free Cities: Braavos).

 

So when did the location of Braavos become known?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

After reading A Treatise to the Pea, I have a headache, so I'm just going to throw this out there:

I don't believe for a moment that the different perceptions of Cat and Jaime regarding Jeyne's hips was an error or oversight at all. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, even if you gamble you have to find somebody to meet your bets. But, yeah, gambling and thieves could have been the reason why he lost his money as quickly as he did.

Perhaps even more land, if you looked for it at the right places. I mean, there are hints that the Starks don't even have gold down in their treasuries, only silver, so you might actually be able to buy as much land as one of the great Northern lords with so much coin.

Down in the South the price for land may be much higher, not to mention that you might not get permission to raise a castle if you are neither a knight nor a lord.

But anyone in his right mind winning such an amount of money would first buy himself a manse in the city and some servants before he would end up looking for whores.

Silver is probably much more useful as coinage than gold.  England got by for centuries just using shillings, groats, and pennies, all silver, with the pound just being a measure of value.   A dragon probably comes to several months' wages, for the average worker.

But I agree, up in the North, land is probably dirt cheap.  I imagine the Starks are probably the poorest of the Lords Paramount, and probably poorer than a lot of prominent Bannermen, such as Hightower, Rowan, Redwyne, Royce, or their own vassals, the Manderlys.

[Philokles]

10 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I think this is unlikely. In medieval times, each coin had the value of the amount of metal it contained. A coin stamped with a "20" should have 20 times the amount of metal than a coin stamped with a "1". 

Fiat currency was commonly used in the Greco-Roman world, and occasionally in the Mediaeval period too - generally only for emergencies, but it still shows that such a development is not unrealistic.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Silver is probably much more useful as coinage than gold.  England got by for centuries just using shillings, groats, and pennies, all silver, with the pound just being a measure of value.   A dragon probably comes to several months' wages, for the average worker.

But I agree, up in the North, land is probably dirt cheap.  I imagine the Starks are probably the poorest of the Lords Paramount, and probably poorer than a lot of prominent Bannermen, such as Hightower, Rowan, Redwyne, Royce, or their own vassals, the Manderlys.

Well, gold really seems to be the domain of the really wealthy. I mean it seems that even a hedge knight/sellsword like Dunk would have been able to get along for quite some time with silver only and he would have needed the coin to feed, clean, and maintain his horse(s).

It seems to me that the average guy never saw a golden dragon up close in his or her entire life. Pate - a novice of the Citadel - has no legal means to get close to a dragon with honest work, and that's just one dragon.

Outside the cities and castles people most likely weren't paid for their work in coin but rather in kind, and those who were paid in coin would have been merchants and craftsmen, not servants and grooms.

In addition, you have to have access to gold to actually hoard it. The only gold mines we know of are in the West (although I guess there could be some in the Vale as well, although there are apparently none on the Iron Islands). The Iron Throne seems to be getting its gold by taxing the West, not to mention that the Lannisters don't seem to have the right to make their own coinage (meaning that the Crown most likely demanded a rather big contingent of gold that was mined throughout the Realm for the means of issuing coin). The wealth of the Reach is most likely transformed into coin through trade (horses, food, exotic goods, etc.) and through taxation of the the trade.

But the Starks may actually get a lot of their own taxes in kind as well, just as they might pay a lot of their own servants in kind as well. The North clearly is the most primitive of the cultures/regions of Westeros. And we see how little kind even previously prestigious houses like the Osgreys have left in TSS - and that's in the wealthy Reach.

The only truly wealthy Lords in the North are the Manderlys. We see that a royal visit like Robert's in AGoT has the potential to actually cause financial trouble for the Starks.

I guess there is also the chance that the Crown gave Sandor enough gold in weight to equal 40,000 dragons. I mean, that would have been possible. Presumably a number of ingots would have been worth as much as 40,000 dragons.

Back in the days of Daeron II and Aerys I commoners like Dunk actually believed in the worth of the actual metal in the coin rather than the stamped on worth of the coin, so this may have been still the general approach in Robert's days. But then, the fact that the Crown was so much in debt in Robert's days it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Littlefinger issued dragons worth ten or a hundred dragons which only contained enough gold to be worth one dragon if you went by the the amount of metal the coin contained.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, gold really seems to be the domain of the really wealthy. I mean it seems that even a hedge knight/sellsword like Dunk would have been able to get along for quite some time with silver only and he would have needed the coin to feed, clean, and maintain his horse(s).

It seems to me that the average guy never saw a golden dragon up close in his or her entire life. Pate - a novice of the Citadel - has no legal means to get close to a dragon with honest work, and that's just one dragon.

Outside the cities and castles people most likely weren't paid for their work in coin but rather in kind, and those who were paid in coin would have been merchants and craftsmen, not servants and grooms.

In addition, you have to have access to gold to actually hoard it. The only gold mines we know of are in the West (although I guess there could be some in the Vale as well, although there are apparently none on the Iron Islands). The Iron Throne seems to be getting its gold by taxing the West, not to mention that the Lannisters don't seem to have the right to make their own coinage (meaning that the Crown most likely demanded a rather big contingent of gold that was mined throughout the Realm for the means of issuing coin). The wealth of the Reach is most likely transformed into coin through trade (horses, food, exotic goods, etc.) and through taxation of the the trade.

But the Starks may actually get a lot of their own taxes in kind as well, just as they might pay a lot of their own servants in kind as well. The North clearly is the most primitive of the cultures/regions of Westeros. And we see how little kind even previously prestigious houses like the Osgreys have left in TSS - and that's in the wealthy Reach.

The only truly wealthy Lords in the North are the Manderlys. We see that a royal visit like Robert's in AGoT has the potential to actually cause financial trouble for the Starks.

I guess there is also the chance that the Crown gave Sandor enough gold in weight to equal 40,000 dragons. I mean, that would have been possible. Presumably a number of ingots would have been worth as much as 40,000 dragons.

Back in the days of Daeron II and Aerys I commoners like Dunk actually believed in the worth of the actual metal in the coin rather than the stamped on worth of the coin, so this may have been still the general approach in Robert's days. But then, the fact that the Crown was so much in debt in Robert's days it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Littlefinger issued dragons worth ten or a hundred dragons which only contained enough gold to be worth one dragon if you went by the the amount of metal the coin contained.

A royal visit could cause a lot of trouble for anyone.  I remember reading how Lord North (whose income was £2,000 a year) spent £700 entertaining Elizabeth I and her court for three days.  To add insult to injury, he had to give a jewel worth £120 at the end of it!

[Neds Secret]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, gold really seems to be the domain of the really wealthy. I mean it seems that even a hedge knight/sellsword like Dunk would have been able to get along for quite some time with silver only and he would have needed the coin to feed, clean, and maintain his horse(s).

It seems to me that the average guy never saw a golden dragon up close in his or her entire life. Pate - a novice of the Citadel - has no legal means to get close to a dragon with honest work, and that's just one dragon.

Outside the cities and castles people most likely weren't paid for their work in coin but rather in kind, and those who were paid in coin would have been merchants and craftsmen, not servants and grooms.

In addition, you have to have access to gold to actually hoard it. The only gold mines we know of are in the West (although I guess there could be some in the Vale as well, although there are apparently none on the Iron Islands). The Iron Throne seems to be getting its gold by taxing the West, not to mention that the Lannisters don't seem to have the right to make their own coinage (meaning that the Crown most likely demanded a rather big contingent of gold that was mined throughout the Realm for the means of issuing coin). The wealth of the Reach is most likely transformed into coin through trade (horses, food, exotic goods, etc.) and through taxation of the the trade.

But the Starks may actually get a lot of their own taxes in kind as well, just as they might pay a lot of their own servants in kind as well. The North clearly is the most primitive of the cultures/regions of Westeros. And we see how little kind even previously prestigious houses like the Osgreys have left in TSS - and that's in the wealthy Reach.

The only truly wealthy Lords in the North are the Manderlys. We see that a royal visit like Robert's in AGoT has the potential to actually cause financial trouble for the Starks.

I guess there is also the chance that the Crown gave Sandor enough gold in weight to equal 40,000 dragons. I mean, that would have been possible. Presumably a number of ingots would have been worth as much as 40,000 dragons.

Back in the days of Daeron II and Aerys I commoners like Dunk actually believed in the worth of the actual metal in the coin rather than the stamped on worth of the coin, so this may have been still the general approach in Robert's days. But then, the fact that the Crown was so much in debt in Robert's days it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Littlefinger issued dragons worth ten or a hundred dragons which only contained enough gold to be worth one dragon if you went by the the amount of metal the coin contained.

I just got a mental picture of Littlefinger running some large hedge fund and AIG leading into the financial crisis, and taking off to the vale just before it hit only to be summoned back with a huge bonus in order to help them in the recovery of what he caused, oh no!

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A royal visit could cause a lot of trouble for anyone.  I remember reading how Lord North (whose income was £2,000 a year) spent £700 entertaining Elizabeth I and her court for three days.  To add insult to injury, he had to give a jewel worth £120 at the end of it!

Yeah, but we don't have Ned giving fancy gifts to the royal family, do we? All he seems to be doing to throwing a huge feast at the royals, and housing/feeding all the hangers-on in the royal party. Considering the Starks control of the North they should be able to get all the food via the usual taxes they collect from all their bannermen but the whole thing still caused them some financial trouble. Perhaps the Starks had to hire more servants, cooks, etc. and had to pay them in coin for the royal visit? Castles seem to be centers of civilization in Westeros, so coin most likely is mostly used there and in cities and (market) towns. In villages like those we see in TSS on the Osgrey lands people most likely only scarcely saw coin, or used it in everyday life.

If there had been singers, mummers, tourneys, etc. during the royal visit at Winterfell the Starks may have been really fucked, but just paying some additional people and food their losses weren't that great.

28 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

I just got a mental picture of Littlefinger running some large hedge fund and AIG leading into the financial crisis, and taking off to the vale just before it hit only to be summoned back with a huge bonus in order to help them in the recovery of what he caused, oh no!

That is actually not so unlikely. We know that Littlefinger ran a lot of shady investments, and if we assume he greatly changed or messed with the previous standards of treasury bureaucracy then a lot of the raised incomes and spendings of the Crown during his time may have been fictitious. We know the entire treasury department were Littlefinger's men. Even those people actually counting the coins the tax collectors brought to KL.

If Littlefinger sort of reformed the currency by stamping 'worth ten, twenty, a hundred dragons' on certain coins then he could actually have screwed with the Crown's (and the Realm's) finances in a huge way. Paying bills of the Crown with such special coins while using the actual gold at the Crown's disposal for his own ends.

And whether any revenue made by Littlefinger's investments ever went into the pockets of the Crown rather than Littlefinger's own is completely unclear, too. I mean, the guy is really rich now without having any relevant incomes of his own until he became the Lord of Harrenhal (and then he couldn't make any money from that).

Whatever wealth he has he must have made from coin he 'borrowed' from the Crown. But whether he ever returned the coin he 'borrowed' is completely unclear. Somehow I don't think so.

But it is still quite clear that Robert emptied Aerys' treasury completely. If the Crown hadn't had any financial difficulties prior to Littlefinger's appointment he would never have been brought in as Master of Coin. Littlefinger might have had Jon's ear via Lysa, but a no-name lowborn like Littlefinger only could claim the seat of the Master of Coin because nobody else at court wanted the office - most likely because it was a hot seat during the days of Robert. You had to find money for Robert to spend. Stannis and Renly most likely had no interest to lose the favor of their 'beloved brother' by being unable to give him what he wanted.

Under a sober and thoughtful king the office of Master of Coin most certainly would be an office coveted by many lords in the Realm, especially those at court.