season 5 deviations... don't make sense.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

"I'm sure than a season of Sansa clearly trying to manipulate the Vale lords with LF's help in order to make them help her retake Winterfell would have been great."

Yeah except that didn't really happen in the books at all.. she might have popped into the room a few times while LF did that, but she was hardly being a master manipulator. Plus.. why would the audience care about the Vale Lords?! A non established faction who don't really seem to have any sort of role to viewers, its pretty unclear why they are important. Spending any more time than absolutely necessary setting that up would be a complete waste.. and in fact most of it was already achieved last season. 

Err, that's clearly being established on the books, including Winds. I mean, that's the whole point of Sansa's and LF's arc even on the show! The Vale Lords only trust LF because he has Sansa's support, which I'd wager, might be something that seems alike parts of Sansa's arc on the books. And In fact, the Vale arc, which you deemed "rubbish", is my favorite arc on Feast. Why does your opinion count more than mine? Also, the Vale Lords are in charge of the biggest untouched army of Westeros. They're pretty strong, and they're clearly established as such even on the show. They just glossed over Sansa's arc because they wanted to get her to her rape, which is just insulting and idiotic.

And not to mention, they are only unclearly important for choices made by the show. They're clearly important on the books. 

But whatever. The emperor's clothes look great.

The changes didn't make sense this year, no. This entire show is divorced of logic. 

Divorced of Logic is putting it nicely. The show's a serial killer that brutally murdered logic and scattered it's pieces. 

I've got a solution that would please everybody!

Replace the lords of the Vale by the Ladies of the Vale, and turn them into mentors for our sweet Sansa! We could even have a "play with her arse" scene where LF is supervising her training. Way to turn her into a strong woman! And we keep the shock value!

Too bad I wasn't an intern last year or we could have won even more Emmys!

Ahhh, that would have made Sansa stay in the Vale. Sad we never thought about that before. 

To say that Sansa wasn't isolated in the books is just fibbing really, she was. Shes hidden away from everyone else, literally. She even has limited interactions with LF. The whole plot is a set up to.. well who knows, but so far its not really doing anything. Plus there is literally no drama or interesting events in her entire story... unless you enjoy the ins and outs of babysitting. To the point where she might as well not have any chapters at all. 

Let's just start by debunking that because out of all chapters Alayne has on the Vale, guess how many she interacts with Littlefinger? Yes, all of them. And well, Sansa being isolated is not a mistake at all. I mean, the plot shouldn't drive the characters, otherwise they fall flat (See, GOT 5). Alayne needs to be partly isolated, but is she more isolated than Arya in Braavos? 

 

[Butterfreak]

Actually it should.  This is a tv show and if a certain plot is deemed not be interesting or compelling enough for the tv viewers than the showrunners have every right not to include it. This happens all the time in tv and the movies.

Exactly, its up to D&D to decide what will and won't work for tv, its part of making an adaptation. I think even the most hardcore bookfanboys would agree that the books couldn't be executed exactly as they are on the page. So some things have to be dropped.
It makes sense that one of the most 'boring' sections of the books that achieve very little and isolate a main character would need to be amended.

There's a difference between removing story lines that are too minor/won't translate well to television and wanting a main character's arc changed because it's "boring".  Even if the Vale plot should have been dropped, it didn't excuse the nonsensical Winterfell plot line that they threw Sansa into instead. 

 

The whole plot is a set up to.. well who knows, but so far its not really doing anything. Plus there is literally no drama or interesting events in her entire story... unless you enjoy the ins and outs of babysitting. To the point where she might as well not have any chapters at all. 

It's three chapters long, and I think it's pretty clear what it's setting up.  The lack of "drama" or "interesting events" is completely subjective (and the idea that there needs to be constant "action" for a good story is stupid, and exactly the kind of mindset that's turning the show into random pieces of shock factor).  I enjoyed her Vale arc, and it seems to be fairly popular from what I've seen.  You not liking her story doesn't make it objectively bad or worthy of being cut.

And if Sansa's Vale plot is pointless, what was her S5 plot?  She didn't do anything all season.  She just repeated her story with Joffrey and lit a candle.  If she arrived at Winterfell at the start of S6 very little would be different.

[CaptainTheo]

I quite liked Sansa's Vale arc in AFFC, one of my favourites from that book actually.

[Valetudo]

I quite liked Sansa's Vale arc in AFFC, one of my favourites from that book actually.

Don't say that! Show appologists need to keep thinking that everybody hated that arc in order to justify the changes. lol

[Le Cygne]

I've got a solution that would please everybody!

Replace the lords of the Vale by the Ladies of the Vale, and turn them into mentors for our sweet Sansa! We could even have a "play with her arse" scene where LF is supervising her training. Way to turn her into a strong woman! And we keep the shock value!

Too bad I wasn't an intern last year or we could have won even more Emmys!

That may yet happen this season. And they took the time to show he was so sad THE brothel is gone. 

[Arrow of the Morning]

 ..but the Vale plot is.. rubbish.. 

That is not a argument. 

The Vale story line have things worthy of adaptation.

- The Lords Declarant besiege the Moon Gate and demands Robert's custody.

- They made a negotiation with Littlefinger and Lyn Corbray draw a sword and treat Petyr, leading to a deal.

- Littlefinger teaches Sansa about political machination. He informs his plans to marry her with Robbin's heir.

- Sweet Robin is sick and Sansa tries to manipulate him.

- Sansa meets Myranda that tries to get information from her and Sansa have to policy himself to not give any information to her. She tries her best to assume Alayne Stone's identity. 

- The tourney happened and Sansa meets Harry. (It is in Winds, but was mint to be in Dance)

It is not scorched earth. Many things happened and something more could be added, like scenes where Sansa interacts with the Vale Lords and tries to manipulate them. They could bring some material from Winds too. If it have some elements difficult to adapt or a little interesting, change and improve them (it is called an adaptation, isn't it?). It could be done with competence and - mainly - good will. Unhappily the showrunners didn't have any of this things.  

 

[Andorion]

I wonder how this entire argument about not having a main character with a small storyline translates to Arya. They took a compelling story about her gradual descent into darkness and turned it into 8 episodes of boredom and 2 episodes of paedophilia.

I think Sansa was a sacrifice on the alatar of Ramsey. With Ramsey they have a Joffrey on steroids and are focussing reaping the horror/revulsion TRPs.

Also none of this explains how a corkscrew unlocks a door. I just can't get over that detail

[sweetsunray]

 ..but the Vale plot is.. rubbish.. 

You don't know what the Vale plot is. It ain't done yet. I've worked out a theory of the Vale plot for tWoW, which basically comes down to one hell of a rollercoaster ride: angsty teen romance as lead in, followed by two disasters avalanche + attack by mountain clans and House Arryn whiped out,and LF dead too. These events were foreshadowed in the joust scene where Ser Hugh gets killed in aGoT at the Hand's Tourney and the snow castle scenes (and I wrote a 20k word essay with quote after quote as evidence for it). The Vale plot is far from rubbish. It sets up a convincing arc of hope of Sansa able to the Vale army behind her to take back her home (in aFfC and start of tWoW), but a giant mountain and newly armed numerous mountain clans (a Lannister always pays his debts) throw in a big wrench, and she chooses to flee. It's got action, has emotional investment, including crushing hopes, but no rape, an echo of KL but different enough, and ties with Sansa's previous arc (LF, Tyrion). You're dismissing a complete arc purely based on the set-up of that arc, without obviously having any clue, let alone any trust in George, what the arc actually may be and what the pay-off could be.

 

[Le Cygne]

Well, I don't think that's the way things will unfold in the Vale, but I do think there was a lot of setup.

And I do agree Sansa was sacrificed on the altar of Ramsay. Bride of Winterhell. The sacrificial virgin.

The story was about her vagina, not her. Myranda even said as much in the end. She was just a body.

[lordstewie]

the choices made on the show are meaningless.
for example, it is safe to deliver to Bolton, Sansa?.
could kill her, are already lords of the north, you do not need that one Stark endanger their plans.
or, because Jamie has to sneak dorne?, he could only ask to bring back the king's sister? without risking anything it his life is that of the girl.
I'm just a huge loss of time

[Maxxine]

I wasn't the biggest fan of Sansa taking the place of Jeyne Poole, but I understood it from a television standpoint. The vast majority of the GOT audience have not even opened any of the books so they have no idea who Jeyne Poole is plus to add keep the storylines as they are in the book you have to add too many characters. If I'm remembering correctly Jeyne Poole was not even introduced at all in the show, so to say "here's this random girl who used to live in Winterfell and is going to act like she's Arya" wouldn't have really made sense to the majority. When you make a tv show you want the audience to be emotional invested in what happens to the characters and you also can't make things too hard to follow. You're not going to be emotionally invested in some random who popped up out of nowhere. I think the only way the random girl works is if you really go into the Theon storyline and bring in the Manderleys, Able (Mance) & the spearwives. But that brings in too many characters, which makes things hard to follow for the average tv watcher. I watch with people who haven't read the books. They struggle to keep up with the characters in the show as it is. So imagine if you bring all the Manderleys, Able, who is really Mance, but who is glamoured to look like Rattleshirt. It's too much for the average person who watches the show. This also applies Sansa's book arc. You want to bring Miranda plus Harry and all the other people who are involved. And idk how well the Vale arc translates to tv anyway. There's a lot of planning & plotting between Sansa & Petyr, which is fine to read about. But on tv, to the majority of tv viewers, that just translates to a lot of talking, which would be boring on tv. So, while I didn't really the Sansa storyline or this season at all, I understood why they had to consolidate storylines.

 

[Tiranasta]

I don't buy that introducing Jeyne wouldn't work for TV, but accepting it for the sake of argument: Then cut the plot. Without the northern politics (and the treatment of Ramsay's bride serving as a catalyst for northern resentments) it's already been reduced to little more than a means of getting Theon out of Winterfell, and there are plenty of more logical ways of doing that, ways that don't involve defying all reason to shoehorn a main character into a minor character's role at the expense of her own plotline.

[Count Balerion]

They wouldn't necessarily have had to introduce the Manderlys (or JP for that matter); they could use Northern lords they already introduced, no? I think with them, Sansa in Winterfell could have worked--maybe even been brlliant. You could show the tense atmosphere and had Sansa plotting with or rallying the Northerners. As it was, the North was weirdly inert, as if the North didn't remember much after all. It wouldn't need JP or the spearwives to make it decent. Unfortunately, it became almost all about Sansa being a Victim all over again. Not to mention the logical lapses like LF not knowing about Ramsay (???) and "Avenge them"--how? What annoys me most about Winterfell is that it could have been very good.

As for the Vale storyline, I rather like it. Definitely better than what the show did to her IMO.

[Eltharion21]

I wasn't the biggest fan of Sansa taking the place of Jeyne Poole, but I understood it from a television standpoint. The vast majority of the GOT audience have not even opened any of the books so they have no idea who Jeyne Poole is plus to add keep the storylines as they are in the book you have to add too many characters. If I'm remembering correctly Jeyne Poole was not even introduced at all in the show, so to say "here's this random girl who used to live in Winterfell and is going to act like she's Arya" wouldn't have really made sense to the majority. When you make a tv show you want the audience to be emotional invested in what happens to the characters and you also can't make things too hard to follow. You're not going to be emotionally invested in some random who popped up out of nowhere. I think the only way the random girl works is if you really go into the Theon storyline and bring in the Manderleys, Able (Mance) & the spearwives. But that brings in too many characters, which makes things hard to follow for the average tv watcher. I watch with people who haven't read the books. They struggle to keep up with the characters in the show as it is. So imagine if you bring all the Manderleys, Able, who is really Mance, but who is glamoured to look like Rattleshirt. It's too much for the average person who watches the show. This also applies Sansa's book arc. You want to bring Miranda plus Harry and all the other people who are involved. And idk how well the Vale arc translates to tv anyway. There's a lot of planning & plotting between Sansa & Petyr, which is fine to read about. But on tv, to the majority of tv viewers, that just translates to a lot of talking, which would be boring on tv. So, while I didn't really the Sansa storyline or this season at all, I understood why they had to consolidate storylines.

 

I got different opinion of the deviation in Sansa's  storyline ,she isn't even in my top 10 favorite characters but i kinda understand that if you want to be emotionally invested in some character it's good to be able to identify, care about and even admire.

Being emotionaly invested in her character  is really hard by choosing to depict her decisions in the show, being abused by Cersei, Joffrey , Hound, Meryn Trant, Littlefinger, Lysa through previous season ... and finally Ramsey , and making it even her own choice to marry Boltons  without any kind of plan to deal with them / no character development except more abuse. (almost like showrunners and adaptation)

[thehandwipes]

I wasn't the biggest fan of Sansa taking the place of Jeyne Poole, but I understood it from a television standpoint. The vast majority of the GOT audience have not even opened any of the books so they have no idea who Jeyne Poole is plus to add keep the storylines as they are in the book you have to add too many characters. If I'm remembering correctly Jeyne Poole was not even introduced at all in the show, so to say "here's this random girl who used to live in Winterfell and is going to act like she's Arya" wouldn't have really made sense to the majority. When you make a tv show you want the audience to be emotional invested in what happens to the characters and you also can't make things too hard to follow. You're not going to be emotionally invested in some random who popped up out of nowhere. I think the only way the random girl works is if you really go into the Theon storyline and bring in the Manderleys, Able (Mance) & the spearwives. But that brings in too many characters, which makes things hard to follow for the average tv watcher. I watch with people who haven't read the books. They struggle to keep up with the characters in the show as it is. So imagine if you bring all the Manderleys, Able, who is really Mance, but who is glamoured to look like Rattleshirt. It's too much for the average person who watches the show. This also applies Sansa's book arc. You want to bring Miranda plus Harry and all the other people who are involved. And idk how well the Vale arc translates to tv anyway. There's a lot of planning & plotting between Sansa & Petyr, which is fine to read about. But on tv, to the majority of tv viewers, that just translates to a lot of talking, which would be boring on tv. So, while I didn't really the Sansa storyline or this season at all, I understood why they had to consolidate storylines.

 

Minor characters don't need a lot of backstory.  How much backstory did Grenn have? Or Septa Mordane?  Or that guy that announced things in King's Landing?  Every season has introduced new minor characters, often just for a season.  Wyman Manderley is a northern lord, you don't need much more backstory than that and could have been replaced with GreatJon Umber.  The spearwives need less backstory than the Sand Snakes and we got them.  Good story makes people emotionally invested, which is why the Winterfell arc in the books was fantastic, whereas in the show it sucked out loud. 

And I just don't understand the idea that its impossible to empathize with a character after only a short time.  A well written story doesn't need much time to establish a character you care about.

 

Two examples off the top of my head of characters I sympathize with after less than a minute of screen time.

[Maxxine]

Minor characters don't need a lot of backstory.  How much backstory did Grenn have? Or Septa Mordane?  Or that guy that announced things in King's Landing?  Every season has introduced new minor characters, often just for a season.  Wyman Manderley is a northern lord, you don't need much more backstory than that and could have been replaced with GreatJon Umber.  The spearwives need less backstory than the Sand Snakes and we got them.  Good story makes people emotionally invested, which is why the Winterfell arc in the books was fantastic, whereas in the show it sucked out loud. 

And I just don't understand the idea that its impossible to empathize with a character after only a short time.  A well written story doesn't need much time to establish a character you care about.

 

Two examples off the top of my head of characters I sympathize with after less than a minute of screen time.

It's not about giving the minor characters a back story. It's just the issue of adding more characters & having to remember who they are and what purpose they're are serving. The average tv viewer doesn't want to think that much & it's really difficult to keep up w/ all the characters when you haven't read the books. And I think anyone would be sympathetic if they would have used Jeyne. I mean the girl was brutally raped. Of course you're sympathetic to her plight. But it still, at least to me, doesn't affect you like when something happens to a main character. For instance, I felt bad while reading about Jeyne but it still wasn't the heartbreak I felt when Ned, Robb , or Jon died or in Jon's case "died." I was more emotionally invested in those characters so I had more of a reaction although I was still sympathetic toward Jeyne.

[thehandwipes]

 

 

It's not about giving the minor characters a back story. It's just the issue of adding more characters & having to remember who they are and what purpose they're are serving. The average tv viewer doesn't want to think that much & it's really difficult to keep up w/ all the characters when you haven't read the books. And I think anyone would be sympathetic if they would have used Jeyne. I mean the girl was brutally raped. Of course you're sympathetic to her plight. But it still, at least to me, doesn't affect you like when something happens to a main character. For instance, I felt bad while reading about Jeyne but it still wasn't the heartbreak I felt when Ned, Robb , or Jon died or in Jon's case "died." I was more emotionally invested in those characters so I had more of a reaction although I was still sympathetic toward Jeyne.

I don't even recognize Sansa as a character.  Not as Sansa from the books, or even from one season to the next or one scene to the next.  Her behavior and decisions are so bizarre its hard to get invested. 

Minor characters have always come and gone on GOT.  Some very minor, some middle tier.  Ygritte, the Hound, Joffrey, Rorge, Biter, Locke, others I'm sure, all left the show in Season 4.  So of course there's room for Jeyne Poole, Barbrey Dustin, and Wyman Manderly (GreatJon).  They found more than enough screentime for Harley Quinn, the Sand Snakes, Meryn "Fucking" Trant, and a scene with Free Prostitute in Volantis.  Think of all the time wasted in Dorne, or just getting Sansa to Winterfell before the marriage, or Arya sweeping floors, or Lancel beating up gay people, or Grey Worm/Missandei, or Littlefinger's irrelevant scheming with Cersei and Olenna.  Half the season was just drivel that could have and should have been cut.

[A Ghost of Someone]

If they wanted Theon out of Winterfell, they could have just had Bran last year talk though the weirwood tree, little by little until Theon really starts to come back. Lets be honest. The rape is what their goal was as they thought it would be good television and make people interested. However, it backfired. More people were disgusted as the plotlines were against logic.c

[Dragon in the North]

If they wanted Theon out of Winterfell, they could have just had Bran last year talk though the weirwood tree, little by little until Theon really starts to come back. Lets be honest. The rape is what their goal was as they thought it would be good television and make people interested. However, it backfired. More people were disgusted as the plotlines were against logic.c

The rape lasted ten seconds and was entirely offscreen, so I highly doubt that brief scene was their goal. The most important things that happened in Sansa's arc this year was that she is now in the North, she's out from Littlefinger's thumb, and she discovered her brothers were still alive. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The rape lasted ten seconds and was entirely offscreen, so I highly doubt that brief scene was their goal. The most important things that happened in Sansa's arc this year was that she is now in the North, she's out from Littlefinger's thumb, and she discovered her brothers were still alive. 

what a ridiculous post. D&D are obviously pornographers who hate *insert your favourite character here* and wanted to have them *raped / killed / humiliated* for their own deviant sexual pleasure. Any other explanation is clearly ludicrous