Aegon VII Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 On July 7, 2016 at 6:12 AM, Chib said: Rhaegar is dead, it is known. Seemingly innocuous comments like this will quickly bury this thread. I kindly ask people refrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I don't think Mance is Rhaegar.. I think too many hurdles have to be jumped over, too many rationalizations made, to come to the conclusion. His name follows the style of noble bastards in the rest of Westeros, and I think that's what he is. My own theory is.. I think this is much more traceable, but know you may not be interested in other possible options. Broadly speaking, I don't see what purpose or role Rhaegar would fill in the story if he was revealed to be alive at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 5 hours ago, bemused said: I don't think Mance is Rhaegar.. I think too many hurdles have to be jumped over, too many rationalizations made, to come to the conclusion. His name follows the style of noble bastards in the rest of Westeros, and I think that's what he is. My own theory is.. I think this is much more traceable, but know you may not be interested in other possible options. Broadly speaking, I don't see what purpose or role Rhaegar would fill in the story if he was revealed to be alive at this point. I have thought a lot about him being either Qorgyle or Bloodraven's bastard, but I feel in the end it would be too insignificant for such a big secret identity. I think the average reader would be thinking, "Who was lord Qorgyle again?" I do appreciate the work you put into the theory, especially concerning the timelines, and think it brings up many good points that can also be applied to MR=RT. The point about how we are presented two conflicting origin stories, for instance, definitely supports both theories. I was very interested to see that Mance's defection from the NW came soon after his visit to Winterfell. I think this would be more significant if Mance was going to Winterfell to see his son before ranging north for so long. If Mance is Rhaegar and had decided he needed to take the next step in his plan and start uniting the wildlings, it makes sense he would see his son before going. Mance having a last name also supports that he is not simply a wlidling raised at the wall. The cloak and ravens helm work for both theories as well, though I especially like that he uses scarlet silk for his cloak and thats the color of silk plume Rhaegar wore. You then discuss Jon's line, "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own." which is just mind blowing if we later learn that he's talking about his father and they share the same blood. Him being a Qorgyle would have his blood be way less royal than R+J=L. And finally, his obsession makes way more sense if he is Rhaegar, the man who lived out the Bael the bard story with Lyanna, especially since the song is later changed to northman's daughter. All together, I view these pieces of evidence as supporting Mance being Rhaegar more so than Qorgyle's bastard. Plus there are many other pieces of evidence that only work for Rhaegar. I would really be interested to discuss the biggest hurdles you have found in MR=RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fishbiscuit Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 sorry! Wrong thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther2000 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 On 12/4/2015 at 5:22 PM, Light a wight tonight said: I can't see why some people need Mace to be Rhaegar. It's like an obsession. Mance may well have some backstory, descent from Bael the Bard, or connection the Starks (he seems to have an affinity for Winterfell), but why Rhaegar? Or why would Rhaegar be interested in the North? The previous Winter was before the Valyrian Freehold was established, much less the Conquest, so the Targs would have nothing to do with any prophecies to do with a new Winter. Plus, the arguments given that Mance and Rhaegar are separate characters are much stronger than any supporting R=M. You aren't convinced by the Watch's having raised Mance at the Wall from a Wildling foundling while Rhaegar grew up in the South? Better than maybe the Rhae-man didn't die at the Trident, maybe someone was glamoured somehow by someone and was killed and cremated in Rhaegar's place. The whole idea is based on that sort of thing. Too many maybes and what-ifs. Totally agree with you on this. Not everyone in this story has to have a hidden identity. Sometimes a Spade is just a Spade. How many times is he going to be glamourized. A glamour on top of a glamour on top of a glamour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 On September 26, 2016 at 0:14 PM, Panther2000 said: Totally agree with you on this. Not everyone in this story has to have a hidden identity. Sometimes a Spade is just a Spade. How many times is he going to be glamourized. A glamour on top of a glamour on top of a glamour. You're right, not everyone has a secret identity and sometimes a spade is just a spade. But that's not really evidence against this theory. There's going to be crackpot secret identity theories about every character in asoiaf, that doesn't mean we should disregard all of them. Now, concerning all the glamours, if rhaegar learned how to do glamours during his studies as a youth it makes sense that he would be able to assume different glamours. You can say it's poor writing for GRRM to have one character glamoured over and over again but until we see how it's written in its entirety I don't think anyone's qualified to make that judgement. We see through the fm that once someone knows how, changing faces is very easy. Rhaegar assuming multiple faces throughout the series really doesn't seem that far fetched, especially since his hidden identity (if mr=RT) and jons secret identity are what the entire story revolves around. We already have Mance being rattleshirt and Abel, is one more identity really that much of a stretch? And as a side thought, Mance deserts the NW when he is no longer able to wear his cloak due to the scarlet stitching. We learn that objects and artifacts that were close to a person make glamouring them easier e.g. Rattleshirts bones. What if mance's cloak was the object rhaegar used to glamour himself. When he learned that he would have to change cloaks, he knew his appearance would change so he deserted the NW instead. The red stitching is great symbolism for him being unable to escape his targ identity and his duty to the realm. It's also the exact color rhaegar used for his helmet's silk plume while wearing the armor he died in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonkers Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 ...what if Mance is Arthur Dayne? lol.... throwing an obsidian spearhead into the fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 On January 18, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Bonkers said: ...what if Mance is Arthur Dayne? lol.... throwing an obsidian spearhead into the fire I have been seeing a lot of talk of this lately. What am I missing? Is there anything that points to Mance being dayne? There's so much linking him with the targs and rhaegar, but I see nothing pointing at him being AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Aegon VII said: I have been seeing a lot of talk of this lately. What am I missing? Is there anything that points to Mance being dayne? There's so much linking him with the targs and rhaegar, but I see nothing pointing at him being AD. There is a series by new youtubers called the Order of the Green Hand. They theorize that Mance is Arthur Dayne, Qhorin is Oswell, and Tormund is Gerold. The Mance is Arthur is the most compelling IMO, especially the fight against Jon with a two handed greatsword. The series is called the Wars to Come. Worth a watch. I get the initial appeal of him being Rhaegar with the black and red. With the harp etc. The video will do a far better job than I can explaining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: There is a series by new youtubers called the Order of the Green Hand. They theorize that Mance is Arthur Dayne, Qhorin is Oswell, and Tormund is Gerold. The Mance is Arthur is the most compelling IMO, especially the fight against Jon with a two handed greatsword. The series is called the Wars to Come. Worth a watch. I get the initial appeal of him being Rhaegar with the black and red. With the harp etc. The video will do a far better job than I can explaining it. Thank you! I was looking for it this weekend based on that other thread but didn't know what it was called. Is there one specifically I should check out? I just watched rhaegar and Leanna's greatest deception but it didn't go into it. I'm reluctant to believe they're going to be able to make as compelling an argument for AD as can be made for RT, so I'm looking forward to watching it. Im curious, do they say Jon is a dayne then? Otherwise his comment about Mances blood doesn't really make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrav Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 M=R would be cool, but there are some pretty concrete logistical obstacles. Rhaegar having been cremated... people remembering Mance as a youth... Mance having been known as a Wildling leader before Rhaegar died. We shouldn't have to do plot gymnastics to get Rhaegar north of the Wall. I feel like the logistics of a theory should be pretty straightforward. Though to be fair, we do have an on-page instance of someone being burned and glamored at the same time. GRRM has left some loopholes that allow this theorizing, but even if Rhaegar is somehow alive, there's almost no plausible way that M could = R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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