Stannis' Dragonstone

[WolfgangII]

When Robert won the Iron Throne he was the Lord Paramount of the Storm's Lands, as many have said, he was entitled to keep both the IT and all his possessions (Crowlands, including Dragonstone) along with Storm's End. But, he was "carelessly generous" (as GRRM said) and he was trying to secure the Baratheon regime in Westeros, so he need to put more Baratheons in power. He created two Baratheon Houses: House Baratheon of Dragonstone (Stannis) and House Baratheon of King's Landing (Robert), along with the traditional House Baratheon of Storm's End (Renly), which he renounced.

I believe the slight Stannis feel (wrongfully or not) is that, if Robert is renouncing to his lordship over Storm's End, then he should be the new Lord. He is the older brother, of age, and he defended it from the Reach army in the war. Obviously, Robert needed Stannis to subjugate Dragonstone and he thought that a way to do it was naming him Lord. Robert could have named Stannis Lord of SE and grant him lordship over Dragonstone; or keep DS to the crown but ask Stannis to suffocate Targaryen support there; or even named Renly Lord of DS (in order to expand Baratheon regime) but ask Stannis to fight his little brother war.

Yes, as a second son, having a lordship -and Dragonstone lordship not the less- is an honor; but as the older brother of the new vaccant Lordship of SE, Stannis was entitled to it, and not being appointed to him was, in deed, a slight. An unconscious slight maybe.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Yes, as a second son, having a lordship -and Dragonstone lordship not the less- is an honor; but as the older brother of the new vaccant Lordship of SE, Stannis was entitled to it, and not being appointed to him was, in deed, a slight. An unconscious slight maybe.

But he wasn't. Robert did not die, he was free to do with them as he pleased just like he was free to pick Ned as his Hand, something else Stannis took as a slight.

Perhaps Robert and Jon gave the brothers those lands based on their personalities and the needs of those lands. As is often said, the Islands as strong Targ supporters would need a strong Lord keeping them in line, plus Stannis had been given a place on the Small Council as Master of Ships (long before Renly was) and him ruling from Dragsontone against attack from Essos was needed.

 

It is also possible that Robert and Jon might have thought the Stormlands was in need of  a more charismatic leader for the Stormland Lords, someone they support fully. Renly was the better option with this in mind.

 

Then there is always the theory that these titles originally were never supposed to be permanent, that Robert intended to one day give them to his sons. That Stannis was given a relatively poor marriage (the niece of Lord Florent) and Renly was left single (Robert as the Baratheon patriarch would have the final say on his marriage) to make taking his lands back easier. Of course Robert being Robert never really got around to carrying out.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Man I'd be pissed too, my drunk, whoremongering brother gets to be fucking King and I get cheated out of the home of my ancestors to live in some (admittedly baller) dragon citadel in the ocean after I ate rats and boot leather to stop from starving while that fat flower Mace Tyrell feasted outside. Dick. 

But likely no, it wasn't intended as a slight by Robert. I'm sure however that there were plenty at court who were willing to spin it that way. 

Roberts the one who has a right to be pissed honestly. He screwed his own children out of their rightful inheritance to honor his brothers, and his selfish, grim, puritanical, killjoy brother whines about it for the better part of two decades. Dick.

[Sullen]

 

If it was so important and looked at as home of the newest heir then Bob should have had Joffrey over there

Yeah, Dragonstone should have been kept for Joffrey, I don't think anyone denies this.

[Fat Mac]

Personally I'd have used SE as the seat of the Crown Prince, as DS holds little traditional value for the Baratheons. I'd have DS as a military fort, under the oversight of a castellan *cough*Stannis*cough*

[1000th Lord Commander]

I doubt it was meant as a insult the way Cersei saw it. Dragonstone was the Targ stronghold, and needed a strong man to hold it. With Robert possibly afraid of another uprising to put Viserys on the throne, Stannis is obviously the man to hold it. Even after Renly comes of age, he is not as martially inclined as Stannis, who also wields the royal fleet. Dragonstone is a good fit for Stannis

[Lee-Sensei]

Personally I'd have used SE as the seat of the Crown Prince, as DS holds little traditional value for the Baratheons. I'd have DS as a military fort, under the oversight of a castellan *cough*Stannis*cough*

I'd have moved the capital to Storms End, kept DS as a Naval Base and either given my second son Kings Landing or made it the seat of the Crown Prince.

[WolfgangII]

But he wasn't. Robert did not die, he was free to do with them as he pleased just like he was free to pick Ned as his Hand, something else Stannis took as a slight.

Perhaps Robert and Jon gave the brothers those lands based on their personalities and the needs of those lands. As is often said, the Islands as strong Targ supporters would need a strong Lord keeping them in line, plus Stannis had been given a place on the Small Council as Master of Ships (long before Renly was) and him ruling from Dragsontone against attack from Essos was needed.

 

It is also possible that Robert and Jon might have thought the Stormlands was in need of  a more charismatic leader for the Stormland Lords, someone they support fully. Renly was the better option with this in mind.

 

Then there is always the theory that these titles originally were never supposed to be permanent, that Robert intended to one day give them to his sons. That Stannis was given a relatively poor marriage (the niece of Lord Florent) and Renly was left single (Robert as the Baratheon patriarch would have the final say on his marriage) to make taking his lands back easier. Of course Robert being Robert never really got around to carrying out.

 

Yes, I understand that Robert, as the patriarch of House Baratheon can do whatever he wants and he did not have to gave away any lordship that he, either by inheritance (Storm's End) or right by conquest (Crownlands), had earned. My point is that Robert decided to stop being Lord of Storm's End, and instead of naming his oldest brother (as "tradition" will say), he named his youngest. ("Tradition" between question marks because there isn't really a precedent of this thing. Aegon didn't gave away Dragonstone, he used for his heir; Harwyn Hoare and his heirs did not gave away the Iron Islands).

Even thoug there is no precedent, what I grasp from Westerosi inheritance and lordship culture is that the eldest has more rights to being lord. Stannis believe that as well, hence why he felt slighted.

[Wavey Sauce]

Yeah, Dragonstone should have been kept for Joffrey, I don't think anyone denies this.

Or least till he came of age and then move Stannis to Storms End. Even if we was master of ships at Kings Landing, and after the Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis earned it, and thats only thing he asked for. If Stannis didnt destroy the greyjoy fleet when he did, that war could have prolonged much longer. Even more so when Bobs father in law got decimated in his own city

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Wavey Sauce said:

Or least till he came of age and then move Stannis to Storms End. Even if we was master of ships at Kings Landing, and after the Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis earned it, and thats only thing he asked for. If Stannis didnt destroy the greyjoy fleet when he did, that war could have prolonged much longer. Even more so when Bobs father in law got decimated in his own city

Nope. Stannis didn't earn it. He should have kept everything for his own children. It would have been both the smart and morally right thing to do.

[Lee-Sensei]

Yes, I understand that Robert, as the patriarch of House Baratheon can do whatever he wants and he did not have to gave away any lordship that he, either by inheritance (Storm's End) or right by conquest (Crownlands), had earned. My point is that Robert decided to stop being Lord of Storm's End, and instead of naming his oldest brother (as "tradition" will say), he named his youngest. ("Tradition" between question marks because there isn't really a precedent of this thing. Aegon didn't gave away Dragonstone, he used for his heir; Harwyn Hoare and his heirs did not gave away the Iron Islands).

Even thoug there is no precedent, what I grasp from Westerosi inheritance and lordship culture is that the eldest has more rights to being lord. Stannis believe that as well, hence why he felt slighted.

Stannis was a Lord. He was the Lord of Dragonstone. Tradition dictates that Dragonstone should be given to the Kings heir. Since Stannis got Dragonstone, he gave Renly Storms End.

[Sullen]

Or least till he came of age and then move Stannis to Storms End. Even if we was master of ships at Kings Landing, and after the Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis earned it, and thats only thing he asked for. If Stannis didnt destroy the greyjoy fleet when he did, that war could have prolonged much longer. Even more so when Bobs father in law got decimated in his own city

Nah, once Joffrey came of age Stannis should have been left with the position of castellan.

He doesn't especially deserve to hold a castle at all, Dragonstone or Storm's End. Stannis didn't earn shit, he didn't do anything more than his duty entailed, being named Master of Ships and given the honour to command the Royal Fleet is reward enough by itself.

Tommen should have had Storm's End.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

In terms of power, holding command of the entire fleet of the seven kingdoms and the allegiance of some houses of the narrow sea is pretty equal to being paramount lord of the storm lands.

 

Renly got the upperhand in the WOTFK because of his diplomacy, getting the Reach.

 

But as starting point both brothers had similar bases. 

[Wavey Sauce]

Nope.mStannis didn't earn it. He should have kept everything for his own children. It would have been both the smart and morally right thing to do.

Tywin Lannister fucked up and did nothing to contribute to that war, if anything Stannis deserved some type of reward for what he did. He destroyed the whole IB fleet, took them off the offensive, saved Westeros from damage, made the IB pack their lunches and go home to the islands and just wait for the oncoming slaughter

 

Beating AND outsmarting the IB out at sea/on the water (where they are their most lethal at) is a hard thing to do. Tywin was useless that whole war yet still had his great seat of power still (yes he loaned tons of $$$ but still

[Lee-Sensei]

Tywin Lannister fucked up and did nothing to contribute to that war, if anything Stannis deserved some type of reward for what he did. He destroyed the whole IB fleet, took them off the offensive, saved Westeros from damage, made the IB pack their lunches and go home to the islands and just wait for the oncoming slaughter

 

Beating AND outsmarting the IB out at sea/on the water (where they are their most lethal at) is a hard thing to do. Tywin was useless that whole war yet still had his great seat of power still (yes he loaned tons of $$$ but still

Nope. All Stannis did was his duty. You shouldn't get rewards for doing your duty. He certainly didn't do enough for Robert to give Stannis his children's inheritance.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin Lannister fucked up and did nothing to contribute to that war,

Yeah he did.

With Balon's "moat" now undefended, King Robert had no difficulty bringing his host across Ironman's Bay from Seagard and Lannisport. With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire.

 

 

 

if anything Stannis deserved some type of reward for what he did. He destroyed the whole IB fleet, took them off the offensive, saved Westeros from damage, made the IB pack their lunches and go home to the islands and just wait for the oncoming slaughter

You make it sound like Stannis swam and confronted the Ironborn all by himself.

 

He was Master of Ships, he had command of the Royal Navy and the Redwyne fleet. That was his position, a position that pretty much the majority of nobles would have gladly accepted.

 

 

 

Beating AND outsmarting the IB out at sea/on the water (where they are their most lethal at) is a hard thing to do. Tywin was useless that whole war yet still had his great seat of power still (yes he loaned tons of $$$ but still

Tywin and Ned both contributed, neither were rewarded. Infact many contributed to that victory yet it is only Stannis fans who think their guy should be rewarded for doing his job.

Master of Ships is just  a title like Master of Laws is yet you don't see Renly demanding credit when ever criminals get caught.

[Orphalesion]

Roberts the one who has a right to be pissed honestly. He screwed his own children out of their rightful inheritance to honor his brothers, and his selfish, grim, puritanical, killjoy brother whines about it for the better part of two decades. Dick.

Kinda agreeing with this. Robert could have definitely kept the castles/titles for his sons, but again Feudalism is about the distribution of power> And I don't think Robert would have had the personal strewnght to force centralization like that (he would have been King and Lord Paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms. Not sure if the other Great Houses would have swallowed that.

However it would have been perfectly in his right to keep Dragonstone (it was a crown possession after all) and name someone else besides his brothers LP of the Stormlands. So he was indeed generous.

I'd have moved the capital to Storms End, kept DS as a Naval Base and either given my second son Kings Landing or made it the seat of the Crown Prince.

Again not sure if the other Great Houses would have stood for that kind of re-structoring, the Targaryens could force it because of their Dragons, and even so their hold on the Seven Kingdoms was always kind of shakey, the Baratheons by comparison are hanging on for dear life and the only reason the Seven Kingdoms haven't splintered completely yet is that the Westerlands and Reach have close ties tot the crown/interest in its continued existance, the Riverlands and Vale are controlled by Littlefinger (who's too smart to openly rebel) and the Martells are waiting for their Masterplan.

[Sullen]

Tywin Lannister fucked up and did nothing to contribute to that war, if anything Stannis deserved some type of reward for what he did. He destroyed the whole IB fleet, took them off the offensive, saved Westeros from damage, made the IB pack their lunches and go home to the islands and just wait for the oncoming slaughter

Beating AND outsmarting the IB out at sea/on the water (where they are their most lethal at) is a hard thing to do. Tywin was useless that whole war yet still had his great seat of power still (yes he loaned tons of $$$ but still

Tywin did contribute to the attack on the Isles though, and did not expect for a reward after it all, I don't know what he has to do with the conversation.

Also, Stannis did his duty and nothing more, by his own admission one should not expect a reward for simply doing his duty. Not to mention, IIRC the WoIaF confirms that the Redwyne fleet was with him when he took on the Iron Fleet, which means he outnumbered the Ironborn at around 2 to 1, which makes the achievement considerably less impressive than it was at first. (It was still the decisive moment of the rebellion though)

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Kinda agreeing with this. Robert could have definitely kept the castles/titles for his sons, but again Feudalism is about the distribution of power> And I don't think Robert would have had the personal strewnght to force centralization like that (he would have been King and Lord Paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms. Not sure if the other Great Houses would have swallowed that.

However it would have been perfectly in his right to keep Dragonstone (it was a crown possession after all) and name someone else besides his brothers LP of the Stormlands. So he was indeed generous.

Again not sure if the other Great Houses would have stood for that kind of re-structoring, the Targaryens could force it because of their Dragons, and even so their hold on the Seven Kingdoms was always kind of shakey, the Baratheons by comparison are hanging on for dear life and the only reason the Seven Kingdoms haven't splintered completely yet is that the Westerlands and Reach have close ties tot the crown/interest in its continued existance, the Riverlands and Vale are controlled by Littlefinger (who's too smart to openly rebel) and the Martells are waiting for their Masterplan.

No one would have said a word if Robert decided to keep all of his lands.

[Orphalesion]

No one would have said a word if Robert decided to keep all of his lands.

How can you be sure about that? Again, it's Feudalism, it builds upon the distrubution of power. One King and eight Lord Paramounts int he case of the Seven Kingdoms. Feudal Lords in historytended to not like it at all when the crown grew too powerful or amassed too many titles. To centralize power a ruler needed a huge amount of personal power and charisma, More than Robert had.

If we look at the Seven Kingdoms there were 8 Great Houses, more or less equal in power, standing and prestique and then the Targaryens above them. It was a stable construct (something Medieval Society loved) The Baratheons changed that and had to gamble that the other Great Houses would accept to be ruled by a former equal (that's also why the Lannister merriage alliance was so important).

Now imagine the former equal also holds on to his former power, functionally uniting two of the nine provinces that make up the Sven Kingdoms under himself, with all the power that entails.

I can't imagine that it would go over without anybody grumbling. The other houses would feel threatened. The baratheons were not the Targaryens, they were on one level with the other LPs.

Though he might have been able to hold onto Storm's End, just like the Targaryens had Summerhall, as long as the  title of LP passes onto somebody else.