Stannis' Dragonstone

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How can you be sure about that? Again, it's Feudalism, it builds upon the distrubution of power. One King and eight Lord Paramounts int he case of the Seven Kingdoms. Feudal Lords in historytended to not like it at all when the crown grew too powerful or amassed too many titles. To centralize power a ruler needed a huge amount of personal power and charisma, More than Robert had.

Who was going to grumble? Not Ned, not Jon, not Tywin.

Mace would not have grumbled as he had more Lords under him than any other Lord Paramount Probably more power than the Crownlands and Stormlands combined.

Doran and Balon might have, but then they had their own agendas.

Hoster is the only Lord who would complain and actually be listened to.

 

 

GRRM mentions that lawfully he could have done so, Robert would not have any problem with holding both. Maybe his his successors further down the line would.

[Lee-Sensei]

How can you be sure about that? Again, it's Feudalism, it builds upon the distrubution of power. One King and eight Lord Paramounts int he case of the Seven Kingdoms. Feudal Lords in historytended to not like it at all when the crown grew too powerful or amassed too many titles. To centralize power a ruler needed a huge amount of personal power and charisma, More than Robert had.

If we look at the Seven Kingdoms there were 8 Great Houses, more or less equal in power, standing and prestique and then the Targaryens above them. It was a stable construct (something Medieval Society loved) The Baratheons changed that and had to gamble that the other Great Houses would accept to be ruled by a former equal (that's also why the Lannister merriage alliance was so important).

Now imagine the former equal also holds on to his former power, functionally uniting two of the nine provinces that make up the Sven Kingdoms under himself, with all the power that entails.

I can't imagine that it would go over without anybody grumbling. The other houses would feel threatened. The baratheons were not the Targaryens, they were on one level with the other LPs.

Though he might have been able to hold onto Storm's End, just like the Targaryens had Summerhall, as long as the  title of LP passes onto somebody else.

1) Because he did keep it all. He gave his conquered lands to his brothers. He was still the head of house Baratheon. Moreover, he had 5 Kingdoms behind him.

2) More charisma than Robert? how did you come to that conclusion?

3) The Kingdoms were not equal.

4) Except he did keep it all. The Baratheons kept The Stormlands and took the Crownlands.

[Trigger Warning]

 So Stannis is nuts and Cerseis a bitch I guess I can get behind that.

Why no Joffrey or Tommen? Shouldn't the first son of the first son and second son of the first son come before second sons and third? Though then, why did Stannis think it's his right?

 

Because Stannis isn't as concerned with rights as he likes to say. Renly got it instead of him when he felt entitled to it, it's a pretty common theme with Stannis. He feels that he should be Robert's Hand as well, it's less about what's actually legally owed Stannis and more about Stannis feeling overlooked and disregarded. Had he received Storm's End I think he's probably have something to say about being the heir and not having Dragonstone.  

[Jeeves]

Was it a slight like Stannis and Cersei say?

Why would Robert slight Stannis?

Dragonstone is a powerful base, the Realms Delight and her brother sought sanctuary  there during The Dance. Perhaps Robert didn't trust Renly the child with this grave responsibility?

 

The Prince of Dragonstone were not expected to remain on the island for a lifetime.  They eventually inherit the crown.  Stannis was never going to inherit ahead of Joffrey.  He didn't have that cushy job to look forward to.  Princess Rhaenyra would have been complaining too if she knew she's not going anywhere.  There's better shopping in King's Landing.  Fashion is a little slow on the island.

[Lee-Sensei]

The Prince of Dragonstone were not expected to remain on the island for a lifetime.  They eventually inherit the crown.  Stannis was never going to inherit ahead of Joffrey.  He didn't have that cushy job to look forward to.  Princess Rhaenyra would have been complaining too if she knew she's not going anywhere.  There's better shopping in King's Landing.  Fashion is a little slow on the island.

He shouldn't have been given anything in the first place.

[Wavey Sauce]

Nope. All Stannis did was his duty. You shouldn't get rewards for doing your duty. He certainly didn't do enough for Robert to give Stannis his children's inheritance.

And duty did Renly ever do for the rewards he got?

[Wavey Sauce]

Because Stannis isn't as concerned with rights as he likes to say. Renly got it instead of him when he felt entitled to it, it's a pretty common theme with Stannis. He feels that he should be Robert's Hand as well, it's less about what's actually legally owed Stannis and more about Stannis feeling overlooked and disregarded. Had he received Storm's End I think he's probably have something to say about being the heir and not having Dragonstone.  

Cersei also wouldnt let her little precious Joffrey go somewhere without her where he would go unwatched. Bob knew Joff was an idiot and wouldnt be able to rule anywhere for shit, least not without a babysitter, but yea Cersei always wanted her kids by her anyway

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Cersei also wouldnt let her little precious Joffrey go somewhere without her where he would go unwatched. Bob knew Joff was an idiot and wouldnt be able to rule anywhere for shit, least not without a babysitter, but yea Cersei always wanted her kids by her anyway

What did Robert know about ruling? 12 year old Joffrey could not have been much worse than his adult 'father'.

[Dolorous22]

What did Robert know about ruling? 12 year old Joffrey could not have been much worse than his adult 'father'.

Robert didn't need to be a good ruler. He had Arryn and Stannis running the Kingdom whilst he neglected his duties choosing instead to whore and hunt and drink. Robert was an awful ruler but he delegated the real responsibilities to Jon Arryn and I don't know if he knew it or not but Stannis was helping Arryn. Who did Joff have? He was surrounded by catspaws, yes-men, and scoundrels. 

Joffrey couldn't have these guys. Even if he wanted them. This 'boy' you're insinuating has some chance of ruling managed to embarrass himself with such proficiency that I can't begin to imagine how you reached this conclusion. Still, so long as Tywin strives to endeavor, he had a chance, I suppose....





The way Stannis has achieved a villainous status for, what? Having ambitions and a bit of a grumble. I wish people didn't bring their bias into a conversation because it's not stacking up. 

The truth is: Stannis could actually do the job and in the absence of Jon Arryn, Robert had to march all the way to WF to bring Ned into the frey because he couldn't bring himself to the conclusion that his younger brother actually had a talent that he didn't. All of a sudden, Roberts playing the game of Thrones but long after the real damage had been done. 

The way some posters are saying: "Big deal, he did his duty, so what?"

Are we reading the same book? There's not exactly a long-line of capable people willing to do their duty or die in the attempt. 

Oh but, what am I saying? I'm sure just anybody can do a bit of duty and stuff. Whatever. Build a navy, sure! How many boats you want? Sail against the experienced Victarion's Iron fleet and just casually take Great-Wyk (the largest IB island)? Sure! Piece of piss. I mean, I did watch the ocean annihilate my parents but I'm sure that's had no psychological effect, I was a kid when it happened. I'll just shrug it off. Oh errm brb, I'm just going to sail 4000 miles to deal with a situation outside of my jurisdiction and abandon both DS and SE because I'm such a selfish asshole. Defeating an opponent with ten times my number, yeah I'll do it in a sec. It's pretty easy. I'm sure the average poster on Westeros.org could do it. Where am I now? Oh errm, it's all a bit petulant and selfish really, I'm sort of trying to liberate WF so I can rally the north to defeat magical demons from an icy hell. God, what an asshole. Anyway, must dash, we've just ran out of food and my army are trying to eat each other and I think there's a few thousand Freys marching my way. Sorry again. 

Nearly all rulers are petulant, demanding and indifferent, but few are willing to put their actual arse on the line. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robert didn't need to be a good ruler. He had Arryn and Stannis running the Kingdom whilst he neglected his duties choosing instead to whore and hunt and drink. Robert was an awful ruler but he delegated the real responsibilities to Jon Arryn and I don't know if he knew it or not but Stannis was helping Arryn. Who did Joff have? He was surrounded by catspaws, yes-men, and scoundrels. 

So was Robert.

"They all want something, money or land or justice. The lies they tell … and my lords and ladies are no better. I am surrounded by flatterers and fools. It can drive a man to madness, Ned. Half of them don't dare tell me the truth, and the other half can't find it."

The few times Robert was told no by Ned he just ignored him and did what he wanted.

 

The way Stannis has achieved a villainous status for, what? Having ambitions and a bit of a grumble. I wish people didn't bring their bias into a conversation because it's not stacking up. 

Why does every conversation have to be about characters either being heroes or villains? Stannis can, and in my opinion does, have motives to be King. That does not make him a 'villain' in my eyes.

 

The truth is: Stannis could actually do the job and in the absence of Jon Arryn, Robert had to march all the way to WF to bring Ned into the frey because he couldn't bring himself to the conclusion that his younger brother actually had a talent that he didn't. All of a sudden, Roberts playing the game of Thrones but long after the real damage had been done. 

Stannis was, at worst hated, and at best severely disliked. He would have been an ineffectual Hand as he is a poor politician unable to compromise. A Hand that neither gets along with the King, the Small Council or the Lords of the Land is entirely pointless.

 

While Robert was lazy and wanted someone to rule for him he still wanted his agendas met and above all wanted to be popular with the Realm. Leaving Stannis in charge would work against that as he is a talent for alienating the majority.

Are we reading the same book? There's not exactly a long-line of capable people willing to do their duty or die in the attempt. 

Sure there is. Name all these Lords who refused to serve on the Small Council?

 

Time and again we see Lords arguing over who gets to lead vanguards (the most dangerous part of the battle). The majority are willing to gain favor by leading dangerous attacks.

 

Oh but, what am I saying? I'm sure just anybody can do a bit of duty and stuff. Whatever. Build a navy, sure! How many boats you want? Sail against the experienced Victarion's Iron fleet and just casually take Great-Wyk (the largest IB island)? Sure! Piece of piss

Well it was hard, no one denies that.  But he did not do it alone, he did not find build the navy himself he used the Kings resources as Master of Ships.

They were great victories against the Ironborn but whoever was appointed Master of Ships would have likely done the same with both the Royal and Redwyne fleet at their disposal.

 

Stannis likes to complain that Robert did not give him the credit he deserves, and there is probably an element of truth to that, but at the same time he gives himself too much credit. For results that would have happened regardless of who was 'in charge'. 
 

[Wavey Sauce]

What did Robert know about ruling? 12 year old Joffrey could not have been much worse than his adult 'father'.

he knew enough to not let a freak who cuts pregnant cats open to see the stillborn kittens rule dragonstone, im sure he learned something from arryn even if not much enough to know that joff was a mongoloid 

[Wavey Sauce]

Robert didn't need to be a good ruler. He had Arryn and Stannis running the Kingdom whilst he neglected his duties choosing instead to whore and hunt and drink. Robert was an awful ruler but he delegated the real responsibilities to Jon Arryn and I don't know if he knew it or not but Stannis was helping Arryn. Who did Joff have? He was surrounded by catspaws, yes-men, and scoundrels. 
Joffrey couldn't have these guys. Even if he wanted them. This 'boy' you're insinuating has some chance of ruling managed to embarrass himself with such proficiency that I can't begin to imagine how you reached this conclusion. Still, so long as Tywin strives to endeavor, he had a chance, I suppose....





The way Stannis has achieved a villainous status for, what? Having ambitions and a bit of a grumble. I wish people didn't bring their bias into a conversation because it's not stacking up. 

The truth is: Stannis could actually do the job and in the absence of Jon Arryn, Robert had to march all the way to WF to bring Ned into the frey because he couldn't bring himself to the conclusion that his younger brother actually had a talent that he didn't. All of a sudden, Roberts playing the game of Thrones but long after the real damage had been done. 

The way some posters are saying: "Big deal, he did his duty, so what?"

Are we reading the same book? There's not exactly a long-line of capable people willing to do their duty or die in the attempt. 

Oh but, what am I saying? I'm sure just anybody can do a bit of duty and stuff. Whatever. Build a navy, sure! How many boats you want? Sail against the experienced Victarion's Iron fleet and just casually take Great-Wyk (the largest IB island)? Sure! Piece of piss. I mean, I did watch the ocean annihilate my parents but I'm sure that's had no psychological effect, I was a kid when it happened. I'll just shrug it off. Oh errm brb, I'm just going to sail 4000 miles to deal with a situation outside of my jurisdiction and abandon both DS and SE because I'm such a selfish asshole. Defeating an opponent with ten times my number, yeah I'll do it in a sec. It's pretty easy. I'm sure the average poster on Westeros.org could do it. Where am I now? Oh errm, it's all a bit petulant and selfish really, I'm sort of trying to liberate WF so I can rally the north to defeat magical demons from an icy hell. God, what an asshole. Anyway, must dash, we've just ran out of food and my army are trying to eat each other and I think there's a few thousand Freys marching my way. Sorry again. 

Nearly all rulers are petulant, demanding and indifferent, but few are willing to put their actual arse on the line. 

 

thank you

 

every user here needs to read this

 

well done

[thelittledragonthatcould]

he knew enough to not let a freak who cuts pregnant cats open to see the stillborn kittens rule dragonstone, im sure he learned something from arryn even if not much enough to know that joff was a mongoloid 

Seriously?

Surely if you want to be offensive about the little shit you can do better than some outdated racial slur.

[Wavey Sauce]

So was Robert.

"They all want something, money or land or justice. The lies they tell … and my lords and ladies are no better. I am surrounded by flatterers and fools. It can drive a man to madness, Ned. Half of them don't dare tell me the truth, and the other half can't find it."

The few times Robert was told no by Ned he just ignored him and did what he wanted.

 

Why does every conversation have to be about characters either being heroes or villains? Stannis can, and in my opinion does, have motives to be King. That does not make him a 'villain' in my eyes.

Stannis was, at worst hated, and at best severely disliked. He would have been an ineffectual Hand as he is a poor politician unable to compromise. A Hand that neither gets along with the King, the Small Council or the Lords of the Land is entirely pointless.

 

While Robert was lazy and wanted someone to rule for him he still wanted his agendas met and above all wanted to be popular with the Realm. Leaving Stannis in charge would work against that as he is a talent for alienating the majority.

Sure there is. Name all these Lords who refused to serve on the Small Council?

 

Time and again we see Lords arguing over who gets to lead vanguards (the most dangerous part of the battle). The majority are willing to gain favor by leading dangerous attacks.

Well it was hard, no one denies that.  But he did not do it alone, he did not find build the navy himself he used the Kings resources as Master of Ships.

They were great victories against the Ironborn but whoever was appointed Master of Ships would have likely done the same with both the Royal and Redwyne fleet at their disposal.

 

Stannis likes to complain that Robert did not give him the credit he deserves, and there is probably an element of truth to that, but at the same time he gives himself too much credit. For results that would have happened regardless of who was 'in charge'. 
 

 

stannis would be hated as the hand and by his council? Was the mad king loved?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

stannis would be hated as the hand and by his council? Was the mad king loved?

By some of his Council he was. He rewarded kiss asses and as King they had to kiss his ass.

[Lee-Sensei]

And duty did Renly ever do for the rewards he got?

Neither of them deserved the lands and titles they were given over Roberts children.

[Lee-Sensei]

What did Robert know about ruling? 12 year old Joffrey could not have been much worse than his adult 'father'.

Robert was a far better King than Joffrey.

[Dolorous22]

LittledragonThatCould.

You make valid points, and fair ones. My entire post wasn't aimed so much at you. I saw word's like "dick" popping up in other posts and it infuriates me to see characters reduced to this. It's almost what HBO have done to the character so the nerves are raw. 

The comparison with Lords leaping at the Vanguard, this is very true and it's food for thought. Stannis may of eagerly took the post sadly believing he'll get SE in return. 

Of course he used the King's resources to build a navy. I don't even.... How else could you conceivably do it? There was a KitN for all of 5 minutes and they had a navy. Doesn't mean it's a good one or that it can be deployed against experienced foes. No, we'll have to disagree there.  

The villain thing. I emphatically agree with you. I'm not posting to the contrary but I have to address the level of hatred he generates. I can't watch posters who've managed to read 5 massive books culminate all that info into: "he's a dick". 

Our views aren't too different on the brotherly disagreement and I think we've managed to illustrate how grey an area it is. I posted several times on the topic and the point I was making from word-Go was: This is a tricky situation, we don't know exactly what was said but it's clear that Stannis wanted SE, but Robert had another plan for his brother. A bigger plan, one where he not only slighted his brother but also technically gave him something better culminating in Stannis having a grumble and a grind of his teeth and not speaking to him but he still did what was asked - and more, by assisting Jon Arryn. 

It's everything else we seem to disagree on. No - I don't believe some 'other' could of defeated the Iron Born in their own waters. There may have been other candidates - I don't know who they are, can you name any LittleDragonThatCould? I think it's fair that you provide other candidates as I'm more than happy with mine! I don't remember it ever being a point of contention that anyone other than Stannis should be the master-of-ships.  They didn't just need some boats to go and attack they needed a stern task-master with an iron constitution. I feel GRRM has built Stannis as that very character. It's what he is and it's the only thing of worth he has so you'll have to forgive me for not just giving it away to 'some other bloke'. The realm was full of all kinds of people, once. 
 

 

Sure there is. Name all these Lords who refused to serve on the Small Council?

 

Serve on the small council? We're not talking about who'd be alright on the small council at least, I wasn't. We need a Lord/Prince of DS. You proposed Joffrey, I insist that it only be Stannis. He's ticking every box and he didn't have to be 'likable', it was a Targ stronghold. Again; I'm satisfied with my candidate; Stannis. I'm sure any number of Lords would jump at a place on the SC. What kind of job they can do and who they're doing for is another matter entirely but worth considering all-the-same.


I'm getting frustrated because I can't seem to condense my thoughts accurately and every third post I make I'm having to reiterate something I said in the first. Like I said, I posted a few times and I hope I've managed to provide the OP enough insight so they can make an unbiased decision. I'm confident the OP didn't post this to read peoples small minded opinions.

All in all, I believe Stannis has set himself apart from most lords just by being Stannis. You can't pander to him or win his favor with money or honeyed words. He'll walk the line, he always has. He wouldn't pull a Renly - who was much more similar to Robert.

There could be another revelation yet. Perhaps there's more to this feud over SE, until we have another piece of the script I'm inclined to believe it was an awkward situation, and nothing more.  

It's not enough for Stannis, never is, but this is indicative of a ruling class. So to is the fact that these men themselves are 'not enough'. The tragedy and futility of their existence is only offset by moments of brilliance. When you take the moments of brilliance away, what are we left with? 

Quick edit: I should also mention that I do not believe Joff had anyone of the same measure as Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon to assist nor did he even have the decency to acknowledge these types of men worthy. Joff, himself is a catspaw. You don't give a catspaw a catspaw, see: Cersei.

[Minsc]

Stannis was, at worst hated, and at best severely disliked. He would have been an ineffectual Hand as he is a poor politician unable to compromise. A Hand that neither gets along with the King, the Small Council or the Lords of the Land is entirely pointless.

While Robert was lazy and wanted someone to rule for him he still wanted his agendas met and above all wanted to be popular with the Realm. Leaving Stannis in charge would work against that as he is a talent for alienating the majority.

I fully agree, moreover it is hardly like Stannis was the only one that has been providing a service and duty for Robert.  For example, Ned and the Tullys helped Robert win the throne and have worked to rule to major regions yet neither of them received any rewards or royal appointments for their service until Robert names Ned to be Hand.  Tywin is Robert's Father-in-law, practically funding his kingdom, and one of the former most respected Hand since likely Baelor Breakspear yet he wasn't named Hand.  Renly, Littlefinger, Selmy, and Pycelle have served Robert on the Small Council with Renly also being Robert's brother yet none of them were named Hand.  Yet, none of these parties seem to complain and be bitter about Robert not naming them Hand after Jon's death.  While, Stannis verbally expresses his bitterness about it even when offering his condolences to Ned's grieving widow.  Seriously, why does Stannis have the right to the position of Hand than all of these individuals?

[John Doe]

Of course Stannis is able to compromise, and he did so many times.