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Sunandspear

Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

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then you will feel even more confused that why so many people did not want to side with the rebellion:

people in seagull town, people in Stromlands, people in riverlands, people in Iron islands, people in Dorne, etc. 

They had sworn oaths, however Dorne was partly blackmailed and most people in the regions you mentioned sided against the mad king.

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1. Well according to what he said he did.

2. No one knows whether it was rape or if it was consensual. The way Ned speaks about Rhaegar, he seem to believe that it was the latter. Thing about it, if you're a woman and has a choice whom would you choose, the elegant and romantic crown prince who can make people cry with his harp or the idiotic oaf who soiled his brother's wedding bed?

Which occurs 4 years after Lyanna's already dead and not at any point during her life...

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Why focus on and speak negatively of only those who think negatively of the character? If you were unbiased you should be saying that it's pretty sad that there's also tons of people who love a fictional character that they don't really know seeing as none of us really know Rhaegar as he's been dead for 15 years by the time the books start, and that they should all instead go out and get laid. You can't just say that it's stupid to hate the character without having enough proof to "warrant" it, but not say that it's equally as stupid to love that same character. Everybody has the exact same amount of space in the books dedicated to Rhaegar which is extremely slim. There's not suddenly 200 pages in AGOT or AFFC painting Rhaegar as this guy who deserves nothing but love for everything that he did as he never did anything horribly wrong and was a saint.

You come across as a hypocrite, or at worst somebody who's just bullshitting and really just doesn't like that people don't like a character that you personally do.

 

 

 

Then maybe you misread. All I said was there's a ton of folks vehemently debating the merits of a dead ficticious character that, as you pointed out, doesn't get a lot of page time, in a series that has yet to be completed, and therefore, not all info has been presented to form a complete, educated, and fair assessment and opinion. It's like a movie critic writing a review for a movie that they only watched an hour  of its 1:45 running time, and made assumptions about characters and wrote disparagingly about ones he didn't like. It's rather premature and uninformed. 

 

I did not specify whether I liked or disliked said character, mostly because I'm pretty ambivalent towards them. What I did say was that I can relate to the treatment of that character in the court of public opinion. I stated that both extremes of positive/negative opinions are not only toxic, but mostly inaccurate and certainly unfair to and unappreciated by the person it's about. 

 

Lastly, I don't call people stupid, and I strive hard to avoid being a hypocrite, as it's very unbecoming. I'm sorry that is how you perceived what I issued as an honest opinion and helpful suggestions. 

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1. Well according to what he said he did.

2. No one knows whether it was rape or if it was consensual. The way Ned speaks about Rhaegar, he seem to believe that it was the latter. Thing about it, if you're a woman and has a choice whom would you choose, the elegant and romantic crown prince who can make people cry with his harp or the idiotic oaf who soiled his brother's wedding bed?

I think you mean "a guy who has a bastard (at 16 for that matter or maybe younger) and maybe wont keep to one bed?" seeing how that didint happen till much later when shes dead.

And I think you mean "a prince who embarassed his wife and shamed 3 houses in one go in favor of crowning her love and beauty" since if were going to be truthful people here that happened when she was alive.

Pick your posien 

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1. Well according to what he said he did.

2. No one knows whether it was rape or if it was consensual. The way Ned speaks about Rhaegar, he seem to believe that it was the latter. Thing about it, if you're a woman and has a choice whom would you choose, the elegant and romantic crown prince who can make people cry with his harp or the idiotic oaf who soiled his brother's wedding bed?

Aerys certainly raped his wife and what Rhaegar did is irrelevant to my point.

Morality is not a teeter totter and cheating is never okay.

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1. Well according to what he said he did.

2. No one knows whether it was rape or if it was consensual. The way Ned speaks about Rhaegar, he seem to believe that it was the latter. Thing about it, if you're a woman and has a choice whom would you choose, the elegant and romantic crown prince who can make people cry with his harp or the idiotic oaf who soiled his brother's wedding bed?

Rhaegar acted much more idiotic than Robert ever could. Probably the genes.

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I do have a question why do people(as in the some fans) think Robert Baratheon was such a bad person (before RR)? Was it beacuse of what Lyana said? Or because of what he became after losing the woman he believes he loved, becoming something he didn't want, and married to someone he hated?

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I do have a question why do people(as in the some fans) think Robert Baratheon was such a bad person (before RR)? Was it beacuse of what Lyana said? Or because of what he became after losing the woman he believes he loved, becoming something he didn't want, and married to someone he hated?

Most are targ fans, simple as that.

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No.

That simple, huh? You know, for a series that gets praised for its greyness, its fans are very often black and white in their thinking.

Then you should let your wife cheat on you too. open relationship. 

in fact, whole westeros is full of arranged marriages, but still people think cheating is not a good thing. 

Why?

by your logic, if it is an arranged marriage, you should feel free to cheat. it is right thing to do. 

But people still think it lowly. 

And Marriage vow cursed the people get between husband and wife. 

Yes, but look at why its considered immoral: because the church says so. Not because it's emotionally damaging to your partner, as it would if you were in a (monogamous) romantic relationship.

I'm still not saying infidelity is right, though - it comes with a shitload of baggage, even when it's expected, as it is in Westeros (for the lords, anyway) - but I'm not going to condemn a person who gives into it ONCE, after a lifetime of miserable dutifulness.

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Well, one is an oaf who probably won't remain faithful, whilst the other is an elegant prince who is being unfaithful to his wife.

My point is that it was probably not rape but the consensual escape of two lovers tied to an arranged marriage they didn't wanted in the first place

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That simple, huh? You know, for a series that gets praised for its greyness, its fans are very often black and white in their thinking.

Yes, but look at why its considered immoral: because the church says so. Not because it's emotionally damaging to your partner, as it would if you were in a (monogamous) romantic relationship.

I'm still not saying infidelity is right, though - it comes with a shitload of baggage, even when it's expected, as it is in Westeros (for the lords, anyway) - but I'm not going to condemn a person who gives into it ONCE, after a lifetime of miserable dutifulness.

Exactly what was it that Raegar ever did that was so miserable and such a burden that we should pity him during his life?

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I do have a question why do people(as in the some fans) think Robert Baratheon was such a bad person (before RR)? Was it beacuse of what Lyana said? Or because of what he became after losing the woman he believes he loved, becoming something he didn't want, and married to someone he hated?

Just because he drinked and whored before RR doesn't make him a bad person, I have never seen that said. Lyanna saying what she said was just for shadowing that Robert wasn't ment to be a husband or father. 

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I do have a question why do people(as in the some fans) think Robert Baratheon was such a bad person (before RR)? Was it beacuse of what Lyana said? Or because of what he became after losing the woman he believes he loved, becoming something he didn't want, and married to someone he hated?

Combination of what Lyanna said and the way he acted in GoT. And awwwww, Bobby didn't want to be king? A boo-hoo. He sure enjoyes the perks that come with the position. Ask any starving peasant (who married for love) if he'd be willing to trade positions.

Same with Cersei....so she was married to a vulgar person who didn't love her boo-hoo. She still has all her basic needs granted and then some without lifting a finger for it.

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Combination of what Lyanna said and the way he acted in GoT. And awwwww, Bobby didn't want to be king? A boo-hoo. He sure enjoyes the perks that come with the position. Ask any starving peasant (who married for love) if he'd be willing to trade positions.

Do you also compare yourself to starving people before you complain about your own problems?

Besides he has a good reason for not giving up the crown even though he wants to. 

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Do you also compare yourself to starving people before you complain about your own problems?

Besides he has a good reason for not giving up the crown even though he wants to. 

it is quite hypocrite to say Robert was tortured by his position of king. It was himself who claimed to be king at trident. He could have given the position to stannis much earlier. Why would he want to murder dany if he really hated to be king? Several millions of gold dragons can prove how he enjoyed his new job. Just as dreaming lyanna as a perfect wife to blame cersei, he just wanted to find some excuse for his laziness and irresponsibly. 

You serously think he will really go to become a sellsword instead of king of westeros? Never. 

 

Edited by purple-eyes

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Exactly what was it that Raegar ever did that was so miserable and such a burden that we should pity him during his life?

Everything. He lived his whole life, putting aside personal wants and enjoyment for his duties. Lyanna was the exception to the trend.

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Robert didn't want to be king? Personally, I think it was Robert whining like any other drunken sot who hates being a drunken sot but not enough to want to actually change something.

As to Rhaegar, he had it better than 99.99999% of people. In exchange, he wasn't allowed monumental follies like the Lyanna fiasco. The realm would have been far better off if he had indulged himself from time to time and not gone on "poor me, I sacrificed everything so I deserve a little love!" with the only girl who could mean trouble at such a scale. By the way, he was also quite indulging of himself. His personal wants were to run away from everything and sing sad songs to the ruins of Summerhall and he did it. The only thing he seems to truly have put aside was his reluctance to be a warrior. His marriage to Elia doesn't qualify as a great personal sacrifice. That's the way nobility marries in Westeros and I don't remember a quote saying that Rhaegar minded Aerys' plans for an Essosi bride or married Elia only reluctantly. He might have been a sad romantic who'd rather spend his life a virgin, waiting for his great love but nothing in the text even hints of this.

Edited by Anath

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it is quite hypocrite to say Robert was tortured by his position of king. It was himself who claimed to be king at trident. He could have given the position to stannis much earlier. Why would he want to murder dany if he really hated to be king? Several millions of gold dragons can prove how he enjoyed his new job. Just as dreaming lyanna as a perfect wife to blame cersei, he just wanted to find some excuse for his laziness and irresponsibly. 

You serously think he will really go to become a sellsword instead of king of westeros? Never. 

 

Har, he wouldn't make Stannis his Hand and you think he would give him the throne he won. :eek:

As to the OP, 

No, I wouldn't prefer if Rhaegar won becoz then we wouldn't have this great story that we love so much.

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Everything. He lived his whole life, putting aside personal wants and enjoyment for his duties. Lyanna was the exception to the trend.

So he suffered the live of a high lord, just as Robert, with the little adddd mistake of causing a civil war that dethroned his whole family. It happens.

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I'm assuming the OP means Rhaegar winning at the Trident.

If Rhaegar would've won, the war would've lasted a lot longer.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but just because Bob died instead of Rhaegar, doesn't mean the war would end.

Would Ned lay down his sword and accept Aerys for his King even after he asked for his head?  Would Ned lay down his sword while his sister is still "kidnapped?"  Doubtful.  Would Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully just bring their banners home after Tully's daughters married a rebel sentenced to death and the man who started the rebellion?  Also, doubtful. 

In an ideal world, Rhaegar would pledge to dispose his father and in turn pardon all the rebels.  Not sure if he could or would do that.

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