purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 it looks like Dorne is a princedom, which is slightly politically higher than other major houses. Just like Prince of Dol Amroth, Imrahil, or Monaco in the real world. So my question is, when dornish ruler meets other major lords, do these lords need to bow to the dornish prince?In reality, it seems like a person with a lower rank from one country or area will bow or curtsey to the head of another country or area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Tyrion doesn't bow when he meets Oberyn the first time so perhaps not. Then again he was having an "oh f**k" moment so perhaps he forgot his courtesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 oh, and also, house martell are supposed to be olive skin, are they still "white people"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 Tyrion doesn't bow when he meets Oberyn the first time so perhaps not. Then again he was having an "oh f**k" moment so perhaps he forgot his courtesy.Yeah, I was checking that chapter also. But honestly GRRM did not say anything about how he greeted Oberyn, not even nodding or handshaking. Probably GRRM was not thinking about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great and Mighty Poo Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 “Which of you is Prince Doran?” “My brother’s health requires he remain at Sunspear.” The princeling removed his helm“Prince Doran has sent me to join King Joffrey’s council in his stead, as it please His Grace.” “His Grace will be most honored to have the counsel of a warrior as renowned as Prince Oberyn of Dorne,” said Tyrion, thinking, This will mean blood in the gutters. “And your noble companions are most welcome as well.” No bows exchanged Eta came late to the party.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 oh, and also, house martell are supposed to be olive skin, are they still "white people"? There are three types of Dornish. Salty, Sandy, and Stony. Martell would be consider Salty Dornish lighter than the sandy and darker than Stony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSovereignGrave Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 The Princes of Dorne aren't politically higher than the rest of the Lords Paramount. They just got to keep their traditional title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 The Princes of Dorne aren't politically higher than the rest of the Lords Paramount. They just got to keep their traditional title.But it is indeed a higher title, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSovereignGrave Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 But it is indeed a higher title, right?Not anymore, really. Since the title is essentially just that of the Lord Paramount of Dorne these days. When Dorne was independent it was, since it was on par with the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaybeINeverSawACamel Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Since Dorne was not conquered, they probably had more wiggle room to keep original titles. Dorne, always fashionably late to Westorsi parties. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pox Americana Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 At one time it might have meant something, but no, prince is, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to the "Lord" of a great house. Their retained title is a courtesy they won in the doling out of concessions after the Young Dragon's conquest and the ensuing shitstorm, but it doesn't change the functionality of their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianstorm Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 But it is indeed a higher title, right?I don't think so, but it may give them some extra prestige. I think GRRM has said he should've added an extra layer of royalty so that Lord Paramount = Duke or what have you, and Prince is equal if not lesser than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 I don't think so, but it may give them some extra prestige. I think GRRM has said he should've added an extra layer of royalty so that Lord Paramount = Duke or what have you, and Prince is equal if not lesser than thatYeah, it seems he wanted to be simple, so everybody is lord. From Lord Tywin, to smallest lord in the country, all same. In Lord of the rings, it does look like Dol Amroth is the second highest noble family in Gondor. title wise. Denethor is lord. And faramir was promoted as prince later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pox Americana Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Lord is simply shortened. There are minor lords, major lords, lord paramounts, etc. To add to the hierarchy, clans, knightly houses, masterly houses, and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Portnoy Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 it looks like Dorne is a princedom, which is slightly politically higher than other major houses. Just like Prince of Dol Amroth, Imrahil, or Monaco in the real world. So my question is, when dornish ruler meets other major lords, do these lords need to bow to the dornish prince?In reality, it seems like a person with a lower rank from one country or area will bow or curtsey to the head of another country or area. It is a title only. The Prince of Dorne holds no more rights than the lord paramounts. Doran's stature is not higher than Mace Tyrell's. The Dornish can be touchy and it behooves anyone meeting them to show more courtesy than they might normally give another of the same rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 It is a title only. The Prince of Dorne holds no more rights than the lord paramounts. Doran's stature is not higher than Mace Tyrell's. The Dornish can be touchy and it behooves anyone meeting them to show more courtesy than they might normally give another of the same rank. Courtesy and protocol only relate to titles. I am not saying Dorne is more powerful than other lords. Just like, if a prince of UK visits Holland. I think he still needs to bow to King of Holland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicxulub Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 it looks like Dorne is a princedom, which is slightly politically higher than other major houses. Just like Prince of Dol Amroth, Imrahil, or Monaco in the real world. So my question is, when dornish ruler meets other major lords, do these lords need to bow to the dornish prince?In reality, it seems like a person with a lower rank from one country or area will bow or curtsey to the head of another country or area. It's a hollow honorific that was given to them for choosing to willingly join the Realm by marriage. It was a concession by Daeron II to Dorne for joining the Realm among many others, but their actual position is Lord Paramount. oh, and also, house martell are supposed to be olive skin, are they still "white people"? The only race relations that really seem to matter in Westeros are Valyrian vs non-Valyrian, First Men vs non-First men. If you're not Valyrian or First Men, there's not too much to consider. "White" in the 21st century sense doesn't seem to exist in these people's minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 The Princes of Dorne aren't politically higher than the rest of the Lords Paramount. They just got to keep their traditional title.But it is indeed a higher title, right?They got to keep the term "Prince" because they weren't defeated by the Targaryens and instead married into the kingdom. A dynastic alliance. They were actually allowed extra powers that the other Lords Paramounts didn't. We don't know exactly what they are but its one of the factors that helped lead to the first Blackfyre rebellion.So they are the same rank in theory at least. Just the Dornish got a better deal since the Targs didn't conquer them so they could make a better deal before joining the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Well they did get to keep their inheritance laws."When good King Daeron wed Princess Myriah and brought us into his kingdom, it was agreed that Dornish law would always rule in Dorne."- AFFC, The Captain of Guard, Ch. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Courtesy and protocol only relate to titles. I am not saying Dorne is more powerful than other lords. Just like, if a prince of UK visits Holland. I think he still needs to bow to King of Holland. While we don't see a lot of "protocol" in the series it is interesting to note that it is Oberyn is not Doran, and as such is not THE Prince of Dorne but A prince of Dorne. I would be curious to see what would have happened if it was Doran that came in a litter to KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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