R+L=J v.157

[Alia of the knife]

She wolf and last dragon? Is that suppose to be Arya and Dany? Dany looks kind of masculine and Arya looks a little older than I recall.

That's Rhaegar being happy, it's hard to tell when your that Emo.

Ser Creighton,

You know that is Lyanna and Rhaegar, lol. But yeah, I guess that is as good representation as possible of R being happy.

And yeah, she does sort of look like Arya too IF she ends up in Aegons radar later on, (wiggles eyebrows).

 

My favorite:

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

The amount of overlapping symbolism in ASoIaF is enough to make your head spin. Not only that, but it also serves to obscure the meaning behind the parallels. And of course, just because someone seems to be repeating a past arc doesn't mean that it will play out exactly the same.

[Ser Creighton]

The amount of overlapping symbolism in ASoIaF is enough to make your head spin. Not only that, but it also serves to obscure the meaning behind the parallels. And of course, just because someone seems to be repeating a past arc doesn't mean that it will play out exactly the same.

Oh I don't think any of it happens exactly the same, rather there are similarities. Azor and the Night's King were not the same, but juxtaposed none the less. The themes and symbolism tend to be more consistent than the journey's but it seems that all roads regardless lead to Rome. Like Stannis is not a similar person to Robert, and they lived different lives. None the less a blue eyed King at war, looks like the North is backing him to an extent. There is another Dragon, though much more questionable, but the idea is Rhaegar Jr. No Lyanna, but a Rose, or maybe Sansa ends up involved at some point.

The obscurity is always going to be there until the series is done, we don't have the full story of the past and still waiting for the rest of the series to be written.

If the symbolism makes your head spin, try the Meereenese knot. I was talking with someone about it yesterday. Looking at all the characters, you can move them and advance there stories pretty easily. At the end of Swords he decided to slow Dany down, he wanted to show the dilemma of rule and created some dilemma's to do just that. He also needed to start some intersecting plot lines. So he had to slow her down. But he created so many intersecting plot lines, and was trying to tie so much symbolism together, and created so many problems that he got this giant knot, and he kept making it bigger. Really by the time Dance is done he had resolved very little, other than to pull Dany out of Meereen and reintroduce the Dothraki, but Meereen is far from over and they you just have the rest of Essos which he introduced. If you look at her to do list, it's insane. Trying to figure out how he can unwind it will make your head spin. The knot is what caused the books to be split and the long writing time on Dance, it is probably what is currently slowing down Winds. He is trying to wrap up Essos but he over loaded the plate. It's not just introduction and arrival of characters. No lets bring New Ghis, Volantis, Myr, Qarth, Lys, Pentos, some random cities between Volantis and Yunkai and so on into the mix. Like who cares about New Ghis? And the thing is characters and armies are still arriving, they have not even got there yet. Tyrion did not meet Dany, Jorah has not really returned yet, Moqorro and Vic are on the way, so is Marwyn, and Volantis. She got Quin who showed up to let out the dragons and get toasted. Sons of the Harpy? Nothing changed there.

The story is stuck until she starts moving again. He has a story for in Westeros too, and things can only advance so far till she arrives, so all that got slowed down and is still stuck and this is what slowed down his writing. He created a traffic Jam. You know there are 3 sort of big things that we are waiting for. R+L=J of course, it's one of those things that seem very important to the overall plot. He can advance this at any time, both literally or symbolically, he can address that all kinds of ways, not that hard. The Others, I don't they are just hanging out and taking there time. But if he wanted to they could attack nobody would be like gosh that doesn't make any sense. But something tells me they can't move till Dany moves because of intersecting plot lines and parallels. And Dany is stuck in a knot created by the author who has admitted to having problems unwinding it.

Do you know what the show did to the Meereenese knot? The crumpled it up into a ball and tossed it out the window. Why? Because it's only real purpose was to slow things down and create parallels and intersecting plot lines. Sure you lose a big battle, you also get to skip all the crap Martin has to sort out. It's a mess and he is still working on it.

Ser Creighton,

You know that is Lyanna and Rhaegar, lol. But yeah, I guess that is as good representation as possible of R being happy.

And yeah, she does sort of look like Arya too IF she ends up in Aegons radar later on, (wiggles eyebrows).

 

My favorite:

Aegon's radar? Wait what? Are you talking about FAegon, Ser Robert Strong will bash his skull in for the second time. I don't know if that will actually happen, but if it does, I'll probably laugh. That is so wrong.

Now about that picture, mmmmm something seems off. Is Kit on a box? That would not be fake would it? I know lets ask Kit and Emilia if it's fake and see what they think.

Oh that is so cute they are laughing about it. She looks lovely in Winter Rose blue.

Hahahaha, Arya oh that's so funny Jon.

Jon: I know isn't it.

Dany: Let it go, Let it go, I ride my dragon through the sky.

Jon: Sorry what's that from?

Dany: Don't act like you don't know because you are boy, I bet Sansa made you watch it a 100 times.

Jon: Sorry never saw frozen

Dany: Then how did you know I was talking about Frozen?

Jon: God Damn it, well who's idea was it to dress you like Elsa anyway? What's with the blue you are all Fire and stuff.

Dany: It's a blue rose reference numb nuts

Jon: Oh... what's a blue rose got to do with it?

Dany: Who? What?

Dany: Do you want to stab a snowman, la la la la la la la?  I'm gonna Knight you. And maybe cut off those boots they are horrible, where do you shop?

Jon; Not like that, not like that! It's pointing at my little lord commander.

Dany: Get those ugly ass boots off the chair

Jon: You are not my mom, now be serious, we are important people.

Dany: Fine. But stop sitting like this is your briss.

Jon: Ok quick be serious, if anyone finds out how bad we are at ruling will never sit the throne.

Dany: Don't get his boots in the picture, they are awful. God damn it, and now the picture is ruined.

Jon: They are not that bad.

Dany: Well could you at least turn the laces out, you should always turn the laces out. Just ask a Vikings fan. Too Soon JStar? I feel your pain.

Jon: Who is Jstar?

Dany: Don't worry about it, 4th wall joke.

Jon: There are 4 walls?

Dany: Oh lord.

Lets fuck with the fan heads and wear black and red.

You know I could totally pass for Lyanna right?

Jon: Lyanna who?

Dany: Just a relative of yours they say she was half horse, a real horse lady. Did you know I was Queen of the horse people? Funny how things work out.

Jon: I love riding, I am really good at too.

Dany: Do tell.

Jon? What did you do?

Can I get in on this, boogy boogy boogy secret Targs.

Jon: Oh man look at this great Gif, I look super rugged and stuff.

Dany: Rugged? You look like a sad puppy.

Jon: I am totally rugged with the wind and the snow and stuff, why I am practically a Wildling Barbarian I am so rugged.

 

Dany: Really?

Jon: Holly crap, what the fuck is that

Dany: First husband

Jon: Jesus I think I just peed a little.

Dany: Yeah okay tinkles. We lived in tents and wondered around the plains as nomadic barbarians it was the highlight of my life.

Jon: How much did he bench? He looks rather large.

Dany: He was really large.

Jon: Does he have a temper.

Dany: Oh don't worry he's dead, he got poisoned brought back to life and then I smothered him with a pillow.

Jon: He got killed, then brought back to life? Hey that's like m... and then you killed him?

Jon: Oh ha ha, where did you get that pic?

Dany: D&D sent it to me last year, they said not to show you. You're gonna die

Jon: Again?

Dany: I have plenty of pillows Jon

Khaleesi Wins!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LmL]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Ser Creighton you made my day brother!!! 

I'm a Vikings fan too, and I was screaming laces out as loud as i could as soon as I saw the replay... I was just BEGGING for one of the announcers to say it... a camera man, something... 

Seriously though I laughed really hard at that. 

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

Shut up, you! Tough way to lose, but I'm used to Red Wedding level tragic defeats by now, so I'm taking this one pretty well.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Ser Creighton you made my day brother!!! 

I'm a Vikings fan too, and I was screaming laces out as loud as i could as soon as I saw the replay... I was just BEGGING for one of the announcers to say it... a camera man, something... 

Seriously though I laughed really hard at that. 

I knew you were cool.

[LmL]

Shut up, you! Tough way to lose, but I'm used to Red Wedding level tragic defeats by now, so I'm taking this one pretty well.

I knew you were cool.

Right back atchya, SKOL Vikes!

Twas a good season to build on, the defense has improved so quickly under Zimmer, they play good ball with good team spirit...

Now back to RLJ.

[Ser Creighton]

Shut up, you! Tough way to lose, but I'm used to Red Wedding level tragic defeats by now, so I'm taking this one pretty well.

I knew you were cool.

Awe I was pulling for the Vikings, I almost always root for the underdog when my team is not playing. It's not that I dislike the Seahawks but come on get me some fresh blood, and the Vikings defense has been excellent. It probably wasn't even the laces at that range anyway, but I can't pass up the Ace Venture joke. Not sure what happened he may have been to close and clipped the ball with his ankle. Either way the Seahawks so often have a horse shoe up their ass, they didn't earn that victory. And the Packers won, now there is a team I won't cheer for. Could be worse, your coach could be named Lewis, and bone heads Burfict and Jones could be on your team throwing away a game because of stupidity.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Ser Creighton you made my day brother!!! 

I'm a Vikings fan too, and I was screaming laces out as loud as i could as soon as I saw the replay... I was just BEGGING for one of the announcers to say it... a camera man, something... 

Seriously though I laughed really hard at that. 

I am actually a Bear fan but like I said I was pulling for the Vikes. Not like the Bears are headed to the playoffs anytime soon. Well maybe, they just need 4 LB's 2 defensive ends, a new secondary, a Left tackle, Right Guard, Center, 3 Wide receivers, and probably a new Running back and QB in the next 3 years or so. Outside of that and depth everything is perfect. Oh and a new OC, because the first good one the Bears have had in Decades just got the HC job for the Dolphins, because we can't ever have anything nice. Oh wait they hired Loggains the QB coach. Well here is a guy who got demoted... from the Titans. Hey maybe we get a super good talent at receiver this year, a guy who actually practices at least once before they put a steel rod in his tibia in his leg and never steps foot on the field again. And for the love of cod could someone please stop trying to make concussion king Shea McClellin happen, dude is the friggin Jai Courtney of the nfl, what idiot decided to put zero charisma next to the lovely Emilia in Terminator and expect chemistry? What is she even doing in Terminator? Why are they even making another terminator? Whole world has gone to hell, Laces out People, it's not complicated.

 

 

 

 

[LmL]

Awe I was pulling for the Vikings, I almost always root for the underdog when my team is not playing. It's not that I dislike the Seahawks but come on get me some fresh blood, and the Vikings defense has been excellent. It probably wasn't even the laces at that range anyway, but I can't pass up the Ace Venture joke. Not sure what happened he may have been to close and clipped the ball with his ankle. Either way the Seahawks so often have a horse shoe up their ass, they didn't earn that victory. And the Packers won, now there is a team I won't cheer for. Could be worse, your coach could be named Lewis, and bone heads Burfict and Jones could be on your team throwing away a game because of stupidity.

I am actually a Bear fan but like I said I was pulling for the Vikes. Not like the Bears are headed to the playoffs anytime soon. Well maybe, they just need 4 LB's 2 defensive ends, a new secondary, a Left tackle, Right Guard, Center, 3 Wide receivers, and probably a new Running back and QB in the next 3 years or so. Outside of that and depth everything is perfect. Oh and a new OC, because the first good one the Bears have had in Decades just got the HC job for the Dolphins, because we can't ever have anything nice. Oh wait they hired Loggains the QB coach. Well here is a guy who got demoted... from the Titans. Hey maybe we get a super good talent at receiver this year, a guy who actually practices at least once before they put a steel rod in his tibia in his leg and never steps foot on the field again. And for the love of cod could someone please stop trying to make concussion king Shea McClellin happen, dude is the friggin Jai Courtney of the nfl, what idiot decided to put zero charisma next to the lovely Emilia in Terminator and expect chemistry? What is she even doing in Terminator? Why are they even making another terminator? Whole world has gone to hell, Laces out People, it's not complicated.

So what you're saying is... you have Alshon Jeffrey, and he's a free agent, and other than that... Jeremy Langford looked alright!! 

I'm grateful just to have a good coach. Zimmer seems really solid, and our D has come a long way. Something to build on.

Oh and I still can't get the idea of Dany killing resurrected Jon with a pillow out of my head.  

[Ygrain]

I've only now realized that there is one aspect of RLJ which I don't recall being discussed: when and how did Ned find out that Lyanna was KotLT? KotLT was never seen again after that one day of jousting  - did Lyanna's brother(s) put two and two together (short figure, challenging the three guys whose squires beat up Howland, Lyanna is not here, OMFG!) and prevented her from jousting on the following day?

I also very much wonder how Rhaegar found out and if he might have had some interaction with not just Lyanna but her brother(s), as well, and if this might have contributed to Brandon's overreacting over the crowning (like, the crowning brought undesirable attention Lyanna, which, after Aerys' proclamation that KotLT was no friend to him, would have put her in danger).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Did Ned ever find out? I can't recall reading that he ever did.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've only now realized that there is one aspect of RLJ which I don't recall being discussed: when and how did Ned find out that Lyanna was KotLT? KotLT was never seen again after that one day of jousting  - did Lyanna's brother(s) put two and two together (short figure, challenging the three guys whose squires beat up Howland, Lyanna is not here, OMFG!) and prevented her from jousting on the following day?

I also very much wonder how Rhaegar found out and if he might have had some interaction with not just Lyanna but her brother(s), as well, and if this might have contributed to Brandon's overreacting over the crowning (like, the crowning brought undesirable attention Lyanna, which, after Aerys' proclamation that KotLT was no friend to him, would have put her in danger).

I am not convinced that Ned ever found out (prior to Lyanna telling Ned the whole story before she dies at ToJ that is). I don't think that Rhaegar ever talked to her brothers at all. But like so many aspects of this situation, GRRM has kept much of the details secret and thus we can really only speculate.

[Ygrain]

Did Ned ever find out? I can't recall reading that he ever did.

It is indeed never stated - and nor is that he didn't.

I am not convinced that Ned ever found out (prior to Lyanna telling Ned the whole story before she dies at ToJ that is). I don't think that Rhaegar ever talked to her brothers at all. But like so many aspects of this situation, GRRM has kept much of the details secret and thus we can really only speculate.

What about Benjen as the source during Ned's brief stay at Winterfell? 

Besides, I wonder if Lyanna's voice, albeit changed, could still be recognizable to an extent, and help put the pieces together. There could be other factors, as well: If Lyanna enjoyed watching the jousting, her absence right during the mystery knight's feats would be notable.

[UnmaskedLurker]

What about Benjen as the source during Ned's brief stay at Winterfell? 

Besides, I wonder if Lyanna's voice, albeit changed, could still be recognizable to an extent, and help put the pieces together. There could be other factors, as well: If Lyanna enjoyed watching the jousting, her absence right during the mystery knight's feats would be notable.

Now those are possibilities -- Ned might have heard it from Benjen or figured it out -- but I doubt he ever heard it from Rhaegar. I doubt Rhaegar would tell anyone (other than maybe Dayne and Whent). But even if Ned did know -- that does not mean that he made the connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar with respect to KotLT -- but perhaps. Given that Ned, Rhaegar and Lyanna are all dead -- how would it matter to the plot development at this point either way?

[Ygrain]

Well, I suggested above the way it could have contributed to Brandon's beef with Rhaegar.

Other than that, I am merely speculating for the fun of it, about one of the few things which probably haven't been speculated about. There is always a chance of sparkling some new thought, some new association, and we haven't had one in ages.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ygrain--

Yeah -- after almost 5 years since the last main book and over 1 year since TWOIAF, it is hard to come up with something new. In the words of one of the former presidents of the US -- "I feel your pain." (Bill Clinton, in case you did not catch the reference)

[Ser Leftwich]

It is indeed never stated - and nor is that he didn't.

What about Benjen as the source during Ned's brief stay at Winterfell? 

Besides, I wonder if Lyanna's voice, albeit changed, could still be recognizable to an extent, and help put the pieces together. There could be other factors, as well: If Lyanna enjoyed watching the jousting, her absence right during the mystery knight's feats would be notable.

Howland is another possibility. Lyanna would have needed some help, likely more help than just Benjen.

Another reason, Howland was taken on the ToJ trip: "Ned, I helped Lyanna into this mess. I want to help her now."

[Ser Leftwich]

Basically, the answer to every question on this forum is "Howland Reed."

[UnmaskedLurker]

Howland is this forum's number 42 -- the meaning of life.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain--

Yeah -- after almost 5 years since the last main book and over 1 year since TWOIAF, it is hard to come up with something new. In the words of one of the former presidents of the US -- "I feel your pain." (Bill Clinton, in case you did not catch the reference)

:-)

We really need GRRM write WoW ASAP

Howland is another possibility. Lyanna would have needed some help, likely more help than just Benjen.

Another reason, Howland was taken on the ToJ trip: "Ned, I helped Lyanna into this mess. I want to help her now."

Also a good point.

Basically, I am wondering:

an unusually short mystery knight + knowing about the incident with the squires + being from the North + Lyanna not being in her seat: could this be enough to send some bells ringing, especially if at leats one of her brothers knew that she trained with rings?

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

I've only now realized that there is one aspect of RLJ which I don't recall being discussed: when and how did Ned find out that Lyanna was KotLT? KotLT was never seen again after that one day of jousting  - did Lyanna's brother(s) put two and two together (short figure, challenging the three guys whose squires beat up Howland, Lyanna is not here, OMFG!) and prevented her from jousting on the following day?

I also very much wonder how Rhaegar found out and if he might have had some interaction with not just Lyanna but her brother(s), as well, and if this might have contributed to Brandon's overreacting over the crowning (like, the crowning brought undesirable attention Lyanna, which, after Aerys' proclamation that KotLT was no friend to him, would have put her in danger).

Did Ned ever find out? I can't recall reading that he ever did.

It's a great topic, Ygrain! Let me throw some thoughts into this. I think Meera Reed's surprise that Bran's father has not told him this tale before speaks to the likelihood that Ned does know. The device used by the mystery knight is enough to provoke the interests of the representatives of the greatest of the old houses of the First Men and  the foremost worshippers of the Old Gods at Harrenhal. The brothers could not have been unaware of the anger of the king directed at this unknown northerner and had their own reasons to investigate. If, as seems likely, Benjen is the source of the mystery knight's armor and shield, then it doesn't take long to figure out to whom he gave the mismatched armor to. They would have ample reason to make sure the mystery knight disappeared never to be found again. Whoever wore the disguise. If it is Lyanna, they have even more reason than removing a target for the king's anger to make sure there was no second day appearance. 

That doesn't necessarily mean a confrontation between Brandon and Ned with Rhaegar. Something to consider, certainly, but there needs more evidence for this. Nor does it mean that if Rhaegar finds out, which I think is likely, and confronts Lyanna with his knowledge - even if that is more in the form of words of admiration for her courage and honorable actions - that this wouldn't get back to the brothers afterward. Lyanna seems to me someone who is more than wiling to tell her family full of boys and men exactly what she thinks. One reason I think Rickard ends up finding out as well. Lyanna is Wylla Manderly with weapons skills. Her brothers and Father don't intimidate her, or at least she doesn't think they will. My read on this anyway.