R+L=J v.157

[Ser Leftwich]

 

 The device used by the mystery knight is enough to provoke the interests of the representatives of the greatest of the old houses of the First Men and  the foremost worshippers of the Old Gods at Harrenhal.

The device of the weirwood tree also evokes the Blackwood family, a not-too-distant relative of Aerys (grandmother) and Rhaegar (great-grandmother).

Along those lines, are there any sigils involving laughing or laughter?

Laughing at is insulting, laughing with is not. Aerys is not so great at discerning between the two.

[SFDanny]

Aerys is not so great at discerning between the two.

So true, but then he thinks Jaime is the mystery knight, so who gives a damn what the crazy old loon thought! No, good thoughts Ser Leftwhich. All good thoughts. Are you suggesting the Blackwoods as suppliers of the offending armor and shield? The Blackwoods are also tied to the Starks through Rickard's grandmother Melantha. Cause for the Starks to worry either way. With Aerys proclaiming the mystery knight "no friend of his" and asking for others to unmask the villain it is certainly cause for the two eldest Stark brothers to be huddling up in conference with friends to find out the source of the armor.

[IceFire125]

We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book...

We will learn lots about the Harrenhall tourney in the next three books, so, any prequel work he is considering will strictly be the continuation of the Dunk and Egg stories...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada

 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is indeed never stated - and nor is that he didn't.

What about Benjen as the source during Ned's brief stay at Winterfell? 

Ok, I thought I had forgotten something   Just checking!

 

 

It's a great topic, Ygrain! Let me throw some thoughts into this. I think Meera Reed's surprise that Bran's father has not told him this tale before speaks to the likelihood that Ned does know. The device used by the mystery knight is enough to provoke the interests of the representatives of the greatest of the old houses of the First Men and  the foremost worshippers of the Old Gods at Harrenhal. The brothers could not have been unaware of the anger of the king directed at this unknown northerner and had their own reasons to investigate. If, as seems likely, Benjen is the source of the mystery knight's armor and shield, then it doesn't take long to figure out to whom he gave the mismatched armor to. They would have ample reason to make sure the mystery knight disappeared never to be found again. Whoever wore the disguise. If it is Lyanna, they have even more reason than removing a target for the king's anger to make sure there was no second day appearance. 

That doesn't necessarily mean a confrontation between Brandon and Ned with Rhaegar. Something to consider, certainly, but there needs more evidence for this. Nor does it mean that if Rhaegar finds out, which I think is likely, and confronts Lyanna with his knowledge - even if that is more in the form of words of admiration for her courage and honorable actions - that this wouldn't get back to the brothers afterward. Lyanna seems to me someone who is more than wiling to tell her family full of boys and men exactly what she thinks. One reason I think Rickard ends up finding out as well. Lyanna is Wylla Manderly with weapons skills. Her brothers and Father don't intimidate her, or at least she doesn't think they will. My read on this anyway.

A good point about Meera's reaction. 

 

Come to think of it, perhaps this is connected to why Lyanna was at Harrenhal a year later, when she disappeared. Brandon had been at Riverrun before, and gone north, and was already on his way back, with Rickard. Benjen was at Winterfell, and Ned was with Robert in the Vale. So why was Lyanna at Harrenhal? Did she stay there since the tourney, or did she first return to Winterfell? Perhaps it is connected to the KotLT. As far as we know, Rickard was not present for the tourney, but messages can be send back and forth, if they didn't travel to Winterfell after the tourney. If Brandon or Ned (or both) were to discover about Lyanna having been the mystery knight, that might have provided Rickard with enough to decide she should remain in the south, to train at becoming more lady-like amongst other noble women (Shella and her daughters, for example). Depending on why Hoster and Brynden apparently did not go to the tourney (they have not been mentioned to have been present, despite the tourney being held in the riverlands, and Catelyn most definitly didn't go, having never seen Ned until her wedding day), Rickard might have chosen the Whent's as a means to also also gain favor with Hoster (for whatever reason). Now, if the Tully's had stayed away because of an argument with House Whent, that won't have been the reason. 

 

Back to the mystery knight.. I personally think that the fact that the mystery knight did not return the next day doesn't need to have involved Brandon and Ned at all. During the feast that night, several men declared that they wanted to unmask the knight, including Robert. And Aerys was urging them on. The fact that men who she wouldn't be able to beat were planning on challanging her, would have been a clear sign not to show up the next day.

The search began only when the knight didn't show up on the second day, and I assume that is what led to the 'dumping of the evicende', hence the shield found in the tree. I like the theory that Rhaegar found Lyanna whilst she was getting rid of the shield, which has been proposed here before.

[purple-eyes]

Ok, I thought I had forgotten something   Just checking!

 

A good point about Meera's reaction. 

 

Come to think of it, perhaps this is connected to why Lyanna was at Harrenhal a year later, when she disappeared. Brandon had been at Riverrun before, and gone north, and was already on his way back, with Rickard. Benjen was at Winterfell, and Ned was with Robert in the Vale. So why was Lyanna at Harrenhal? Did she stay there since the tourney, or did she first return to Winterfell? Perhaps it is connected to the KotLT. As far as we know, Rickard was not present for the tourney, but messages can be send back and forth, if they didn't travel to Winterfell after the tourney. If Brandon or Ned (or both) were to discover about Lyanna having been the mystery knight, that might have provided Rickard with enough to decide she should remain in the south, to train at becoming more lady-like amongst other noble women (Shella and her daughters, for example). Depending on why Hoster and Brynden apparently did not go to the tourney (they have not been mentioned to have been present, despite the tourney being held in the riverlands, and Catelyn most definitly didn't go, having never seen Ned until her wedding day), Rickard might have chosen the Whent's as a means to also also gain favor with Hoster (for whatever reason). Now, if the Tully's had stayed away because of an argument with House Whent, that won't have been the reason. 

 

Back to the mystery knight.. I personally think that the fact that the mystery knight did not return the next day doesn't need to have involved Brandon and Ned at all. During the feast that night, several men declared that they wanted to unmask the knight, including Robert. And Aerys was urging them on. The fact that men who she wouldn't be able to beat were planning on challanging her, would have been a clear sign not to show up the next day.

The search began only when the knight didn't show up on the second day, and I assume that is what led to the 'dumping of the evicende', hence the shield found in the tree. I like the theory that Rhaegar found Lyanna whilst she was getting rid of the shield, which has been proposed here before.

who will be so silly to get rid of shield during the day when people are searching her? Should not do this during the last night? And why did she need to admit she was the knight since she was just throwing the shield as a woman? 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

who will be so silly to get rid of shield during the day when people are searching her? Should not do this during the last night? And why did she need to admit she was the knight since she was just throwing the shield as a woman? 

 

It would have been about separating distance between her and the shield. If the shield was found with her, either she would become suspected, or her brothers, and she would want to prevent that.

And when the Crown Prince asks a question, he wants an answer, and Lyanna would not be in a position to refuse to answer such a question. She could have lied, to be sure, but the question would be whether or not Rhaegar (and presumably at least one (kings)guard he had with him) would believe that.

[purple-eyes]

It would have been about separating distance between her and the shield. If the shield was found with her, either she would become suspected, or her brothers, and she would want to prevent that.

And when the Crown Prince asks a question, he wants an answer, and Lyanna would not be in a position to refuse to answer such a question. She could have lied, to be sure, but the question would be whether or not Rhaegar (and presumably at least one (kings)guard he had with him) would believe that.

a woman was not expected to do this thing at all. Unless lyanna immediately confessed she was the knight, which sounds silly, highest chance is that rhaegar thought she knew who that guy is and she is just helping. then he would lock it on howland like bran. Only at that point, lyanna would confess. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Did Ned ever find out? I can't recall reading that he ever did.

Ned certainly must have known by the end of the Rebellion, but what he actually knew at/during Harrenhal is a mystery. I don't think Lyanna was forced to stop participating in the tourney by anyone. She accomplished what she wanted to do, and may have realized/learned that the king wasn't actually happy with the whole episode. What Brandon and Ned learned/understood greatly hinges on what they did during the tourney. Brandon may have chased some girls, and Ned may have been too focused on Ashara to care about much else, not to mention that Robert most likely dragged him into 'important stuff' like drinking games and stuff, too.

But, again, a lot of stuff happened at Harrenhal. Howland's involvement in the whole thing is very interesting, too. He would have been most likely aware of the affair/relationship/whatever between Rhaegar and Lyanna since Rhaegar's investigation of the knight would have led him inevitably to Howland himself. It may even have been Howland Reed who gave Lyanna's identity away and/or pointed Rhaegar in the right direction.

And one really wonders how it came to be that Howland and Ned became such good friends. Nothing suggests they knew each other prior to Harrenhal, especially in light of the fact that Ned would have spend much time in the Vale (and nothing suggests Howland ever lived at Winterfell or that Ned spend any time with the crannogmen).

Howland may have first won Lyanna's friendship and only gained his place in Ned's heart due to the part he played in Lyanna's life.

But while we don't know what happened among the Starks internally after the coronation thing pretty much anything is possible. Did Brandon/Rickard (if the latter was there which we still don't know - one assumes that Rhaegar actually would have wanted him there when the whole thing was still supposed to be a covert Great Council) confront Lyanna afterwards about the whole thing? Was she disciplined in some fashion for behaving/being a whore (I could easily see Brandon beating her)? Depending on all that, neither Howland nor Benjen (who most likely would have been aware of the knight part, not necessarily the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing that followed thereafter) might have spoken up less that Lyanna have even more problems - especially if Ned essentially shared Brandon's view on the matter (which seems to be the case).

Come to think of it, Ned's memories of Lyanna's fierceness in AGoT do not suggest that he know much about her exploits in the field of her training at arms. That makes it less likely that he figured the knight part out himself, and was perhaps only told later on. Or perhaps not at all. Howland could have gone straight to the affair part. It is really difficult to say.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

a woman was not expected to do this thing at all. Unless lyanna immediately confessed she was the knight, which sounds silly, highest chance is that rhaegar thought she knew who that guy is and she is just helping. then he would lock it on howland like bran. Only at that point, lyanna would confess. 

 

If you are looking for a person who was wearing a specific item, and you come across someone, anyone, who is holding that specific item (in this case the shield), suspicion of being involved will immediately arise. That would leave Lyanna with three choices: shifting the blame on someone else, admitting it was her, or lying and stating she had just found the shield. What happens next, is based both on the choice she makes, and on whether Rhaegar is willing to believe what she says or not.

[purple-eyes]

If you are looking for a person who was wearing a specific item, and you come across someone, anyone, who is holding that specific item (in this case the shield), suspicion of being involved will immediately arise. That would leave Lyanna with three choices: shifting the blame on someone else, admitting it was her, or lying and stating she had just found the shield. What happens next, is based both on the choice she makes, and on whether Rhaegar is willing to believe what she says or not.

considering the result of admission was to face aerys and make it known to her brothers and father, I am sure in this case, lyanna claimed she just picked up this stuff in the forest and even tried to submit this to rhaegar and say: your grace, I accidentally found this shield in the forest and hope it will help you for searching! 

Howland is too important to be excluded from this episode. There is no way rhaegar just simply bought lyanna is the knight even after seeing her having that shield. 

He would either decide it is howland or lyanna's brother. 

[purple-eyes]

By the way, should not the best way to hide the shield is to repaint the sield? 

Who painted this shield? Probably lyanna herself. Why not just repaint and erase the pattern in stead of holding it around when there is a party hunting for it? 

 

[Avalatis]

snip

Quite simply if it was Lyanna she had achieved her goal already. Why would she continue in the tournament? She had the squires properly berated by their Knights.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Quite simply if it was Lyanna she had achieved her goal already. Why would she continue in the tournament? She had the squires properly berated by their Knights.

That as well, Yes.

[purple-eyes]

Quite simply if it was Lyanna she had achieved her goal already. Why would she continue in the tournament? She had the squires properly berated by their Knights.

I do agree lyanna already decided she would only beat three knights so she would not show up next day anyway. Unless she felt she was so good to be able to beat everybody. 

The point is, after that supper, she realized king was angry, this is dangerous, so she should not only disappear, but also keep it as secret and shut her mouth. 

Therefore Brandon and Ned knew nothing about it during the crowning. 

Only howland reed and maybe benjen. 

 

[Jon Weirgaryen]

who will be so silly to get rid of shield during the day when people are searching her? Should not do this during the last night? And why did she need to admit she was the knight since she was just throwing the shield as a woman? 

 

An issue of time being linear. Maybe Bran, maybe Quaithe can time-travel and benefit from hindsight. I take it Lyanna could not. So when she learned the Knight of the Laughing Tree was being sought as an enemy of the King, it was already too late to have hidden that shield somewhere it could not be connected to her or her family any more.

In nowadays society of crime-readers/watchers we could try to argue the evidence was placed there. Then, that would not help, the evidence would incriminate the Stark family.

By the way, should not the best way to hide the shield is to repaint the sield? 

Who painted this shield? Probably lyanna herself. Why not just repaint and erase the pattern in stead of holding it around when there is a party hunting for it? 

 

That's a good question. I think timing might feature there, if people were snooping around your tent, that would not be an option, but leaving for the greenery with a sack of horse fodder might do. And a freshly tampered-with shield would not be much help either.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I can't seem find @Ygrain's post where she suggests L's brothers might have hindered her jousting the next day.

Anyway, maybe they would. But then, why would Lyanna want to continue in the lists in the first place. The revenge part done was... all done. Mission accomplished so to say. Time to enjoy the rest of the show.

ninja'd by @Avalatis & @purple-eyes it seems.

[purple-eyes]

An issue of time being linear. Maybe Bran, maybe Quaithe can time-travel and benefit from hindsight. I take it Lyanna could not. So when she learned the Knight of the Laughing Tree was being sought as an enemy of the King, it was already too late to have hidden that shield somewhere it could not be connected to her or her family any more.

In nowadays society of crime-readers/watchers we could try to argue the evidence was placed there. Then, that would not help, the evidence would incriminate the Stark family.

That's a good question. I think timing might feature there, if people were snooping around your tent, that would not be an option, but leaving for the greenery with a sack of horse fodder might do. And a freshly tampered-with shield would not be much help either.

you missed some point. 

Aerys already declared kolt is enemy and urged his men to defeat her at the feast at that night of the same day lyanna won three knights. If howland can be in that feast to tell us this then sure lyanna was there too. 

Which means she already knew about it and knew she need to keep it as a secret. She had whole night to throw the shield into forest. 

Why did she want to wait until next day morning after aerys asked rhaegar to hunt for her, then she went out holding that shield and tried to throw it? 

[purple-eyes]

And come back to the question, even she was holding the shield around and was found by rhaegar, so what? 

She was a woman and she did not wear that armor, why would rhaegar believe she is the knight? 

He would still think howland or one stark is the knight, lyanna was simply a helper. 

This will lead him to try to take howland to aerys, then this is the time lyanna admitted she is the knight. 

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Which means she already knew about it and knew she need to keep it as a secret. She had whole night to throw the shield into forest. 

Why did she want to wait until next day morning after aerys asked rhaegar to hunt for her, then she went out holding that shield and tried to throw it? 

We don't know if she knew. Maybe, even if she knew, she might have found herself unable to leave tent... or unable to walk in the darkest night? Just speculating.

However, if, as some posters like to suggest and dream about, there was already some romance play in the air between her an Rhaegar, she might also have played the daring maid, playing with fire, just to ensnare and win the prince over to her cause. Or 'ell maybe the playing with fire part for the sake of it.

[purple-eyes]

We don't know if she knew. Maybe, even if she knew, she might have found herself unable to leave tent... or unable to walk in the darkest night? Just speculating.

However, if, as some posters like to suggest and dream about, there was already some romance play in the air between her an Rhaegar, she might also have played the daring maid, playing with fire, just to ensnare and win the prince over to her cause. Or 'ell maybe the playing with fire part for the sake of it.

yeah, there is a chance she tried to use this way to attract rhaegar and catch his eyes, I can not deny this. 

She already wept for his songs and when benjen teased her, she poured wine over his head in public just like joff to tyrion, in fact very rude. Why? She was attracted by rhaegar already. So after she saw rhaegar was sent out to search for her, then she has quite some motivation to create this "romantic meeting" with her dreaming prince. Or even immediately had some wild sex with rhaegar in the forest depending on how wild and wolf blooded lyanna is. She may tease rhaegar that "I will use my body to pay for your protection", something like that. 

She had same wolf blood as brandon and brandon is very liberal on sex, it is possible that lyanna is the same. 

She may want to win rhaegar and have sex with him before jousting already.