R+L=J v.157

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

RT, that was the app quote I was asking about earlier. You found it! It's the first time there is any indication just where Rickard is on his travels to the wedding. Evidence he isn't still in Winterfell when Lyanna is abducted.;-

Ooh... I thought you were looking for a conversation between us about that quote! I completely misunderstood you! Sorry But happy to help!

 

But yeah, the quote from the app, combined with the quote from the books, clearly show that Rickard was already on his way south when news of Lyanna reached the group.

[Ygrain]

But yeah, the quote from the app, combined with the quote from the books, clearly show that Rickard was already on his way south when news of Lyanna reached the group.

You are awesome :-)

Also, the app info corroborates that there was quite short time between Brandon's act and his "trial" - much less than there would be if Rickard was summoned from Winterfell.

[SFDanny]

Ooh... I thought you were looking for a conversation between us about that quote! I completely misunderstood you! Sorry But happy to help!

 

But yeah, the quote from the app, combined with the quote from the books, clearly show that Rickard was already on his way south when news of Lyanna reached the group.

No, that was quote I was looking for and could not find which app entry it was in. Sorry, I should have been clear on what I was asking. I have to second Ygrain's description of you as awesome! Thank you, once again.

Not being able to find the quote made me spend some time figuring out how explain why it had to be so without the reference to back it up. Good practice. I hope kingmonkey likes the effort from all parties.

[Lord Varys]

RT, that was the app quote I was asking about earlier. You found it! It's the first time there is any indication just where Rickard is on his travels to the wedding. Evidence he isn't still in Winterfell when Lyanna is abducted.

I remember bringing that up around the time the App first came out. It provides us with a very good explanation why Rickard didn't take a host with him to KL to demand Brandon's release (like Robb later did when Ned was incarcerated). He either lacked the time to go back North or (even more likely) he was already too far south, fearing that Riverlords being loyal to House Targaryen would seize him on the road and drag him before the king in chains.

If you have the choice between those two options a man like Rickard most likely wanted to face his king on his own terms. Now, this sort of contradicts early AGoT chapter stuff (Rickard leaving Winterfell on a king's command), but they are full of mistakes anyway.

More importantly, we should also keep in mind that Rickard and Aerys were once reasonably close (Rickard was visiting court multiple times and must have made a good impression or else Aerys would never have come up with his fancy idea of a Second Wall), and if Rickard was not at Harrenhal he might have greatly misjudged the king's present state of mind and his overall mistrust against the Starks - who in his mind were plotting with Rhaegar against him.

I find the idea still very strange that Rickard wasn't at Harrenhal, especially if the man really had 'southron ambitions'.

[purple-eyes]

I remember bringing that up around the time the App first came out. It provides us with a very good explanation why Rickard didn't take a host with him to KL to demand Brandon's release (like Robb later did when Ned was incarcerated). He either lacked the time to go back North or (even more likely) he was already too far south, fearing that Riverlords being loyal to House Targaryen would seize him on the road and drag him before the king in chains.

If you have the choice between those two options a man like Rickard most likely wanted to face his king on his own terms. Now, this sort of contradicts early AGoT chapter stuff (Rickard leaving Winterfell on a king's command), but they are full of mistakes anyway.

More importantly, we should also keep in mind that Rickard and Aerys were once reasonably close (Rickard was visiting court multiple times and must have made a good impression or else Aerys would never have come up with his fancy idea of a Second Wall), and if Rickard was not at Harrenhal he might have greatly misjudged the king's present state of mind and his overall mistrust against the Starks - who in his mind were plotting with Rhaegar against him.

I find the idea still very strange that Rickard wasn't at Harrenhal, especially if the man really had 'southron ambitions'.

it was said rickad had 200 of his best men with him. 

I am wondering are they already in his wedding party? Or Rickard summon them from north after he was summoned. 

At that moment Rickard is already quite close to riverrun. 

Maybe he waited in riverrun for a while for his 200 riders. 

 

[Ygrain]

 I hope kingmonkey likes the effort from all parties.

I hope that he will be happy to learn that it is not just "a second-hand remembered account of a "semi-canon" source"

[purple-eyes]

 

Catelyn states somewhere that she doesn't have clear memories of her mother anymore, implying that Minisa died not too many years after Edmure's bith. By the time the tourney took place, she most likely had been dead for a few years already.

Catelyn has several memories of her mother still. And while Minisa still lived for parts of Catelyn's childhood...

Nonetheless, during all those years of Catelyn's girlhood, it had been Brynden the Blackfish to whom Lord Hoster's children had run with their tears and their tales, when Father was too busy and Mother too ill. Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure … and yes, even Petyr Baelish, their father's ward … he had listened to them all patiently, as he listened now, laughing at their triumphs and sympathizing with their childish misfortunes.

The following quote would imply that she had died before Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon, doesn't it? 

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

 Catelyn was born in 264 AC, and betrothed at the age of 12, placing her betrothal in 276/277 AC. Years before Harrenhal. 

 

 

I'd describe it as going back to Ned York.

 

A wedding that would at the earliest occur half a year later.. You can take a brake from such. Nor would that stop you from sending your brother, for example, in your stead. Or Rickard.

In fact, both men travelling to Harrenhal would be the perfect oppertunity to plan the wedding. They'd have the time to discuss details together, without the need of constantly having to wait for each other's letter.

 

 

Why would he? Especially if Ned never planned on telling Jon the truth, why would Howland suddenly feel it is his responsibility to tell Jon who his parents were? He can't change anything about Jon's situation on the Wall, anyway. He has already sworn his NW vows...

i would not call "go back to New York" one whole year after i only had a 10-day business conference there. New York is not my home. 

But maybe that is just me. 

Although i tend to believe that tourney happened somewhere in the middle of the year, then Rhaegar went home and witnessed the birth of Aegon then he eloped, but I still think there is some possibility that Aegon was born before the tourney. maybe GRRM just forgot about the situation of Elia. He could set Aegon was born in September and make the tourney in Nov. 

It is very strange that he kept the timing of tourney so vague in all the materials, even in APP, it is just "after some time". 

This made me feel suspicious that the timing of tourney is indeed important. the only reason I can think about why the timing has to be a secret, is because the birth date of Aegon can have a big influence on the story. But I can be wrong for sure. 

 

For wedding, you need a lot of preparation on site. I do not think Hoster and Rickard will prefer to go to a tourney to discuss their wedding. they need to make detailed arrangements at the place of wedding. you know, feast, accommodations, guests, etc. Maybe they even had a lot of guests at home so hoster had to be at home. 

 

 

 

 

[Ser Creighton]

 

Catelyn states somewhere that she doesn't have clear memories of her mother anymore, implying that Minisa died not too many years after Edmure's bith. By the time the tourney took place, she most likely had been dead for a few years already.

Catelyn has several memories of her mother still. And while Minisa still lived for parts of Catelyn's childhood...

Nonetheless, during all those years of Catelyn's girlhood, it had been Brynden the Blackfish to whom Lord Hoster's children had run with their tears and their tales, when Father was too busy and Mother too ill. Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure … and yes, even Petyr Baelish, their father's ward … he had listened to them all patiently, as he listened now, laughing at their triumphs and sympathizing with their childish misfortunes.

The following quote would imply that she had died before Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon, doesn't it? 

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

 Catelyn was born in 264 AC, and betrothed at the age of 12, placing her betrothal in 276/277 AC. Years before Harrenhal. 

 

 

I'd describe it as going back to Ned York.

 

A wedding that would at the earliest occur half a year later.. You can take a brake from such. Nor would that stop you from sending your brother, for example, in your stead. Or Rickard.

In fact, both men travelling to Harrenhal would be the perfect oppertunity to plan the wedding. They'd have the time to discuss details together, without the need of constantly having to wait for each other's letter.

 

 

Why would he? Especially if Ned never planned on telling Jon the truth, why would Howland suddenly feel it is his responsibility to tell Jon who his parents were? He can't change anything about Jon's situation on the Wall, anyway. He has already sworn his NW vows...

If I had to guess, which is all I could do I would wonder what instructions may have been left with Howland, which may be mirrored with what Robb may have done. Most trusted friend, most trusted friends tend to have a history of being trusted with things, Howland is not part of the story to not be part of the story.

I think Martin has done a poor job with Howland to date and his absence is just convenient for him. Like the Others not showing up and attacking yet or Dany and constant delays via a knot that basically slowed his own writing to a crawl. When Martin wants to he can make a lot happen over a short period of time, with the so called secret plans. FAegon is a perfect example. In one Dany chapter a mummers Dragon and lie, a back story on the death of the babe in Neds chapter, nothing really for 15 years, and then FAegon, Secret plan, Jon Con, Tyrion, Varys, Illyrio, more back story, a journey, an entourage, he goes to Volantis, is handed and army, is handed a fleet, Invades Westeros, takes multiple castles and holds Storms End and all of this was done in a few chapters and only 2 directly related POV chapters via JonCon. This so called hidden prince. They did that in what 3 Tyrion chapters, 2 JonCon chapters, and some minor allusions to him in the series. That's less than half the material Jon had in Dance alone.

His Kids have been missing since Kings. No reports of their deaths, did he investigate that, you would think he might since he sent them there? Defending the Neck? Only he could do it? It's just Howland and he has no men or commanders? the Iron Born, did you see the Iron Born in Dance, not a whole lot to defend once Vic left a long time ago. Is he plotting against the Boltons? Manderly suddenly popped up in Dance and here you have lord with a secret plan and he relates that as well.

The Question is, after the death of Jon's brothers, all three of them, his sisters are missing until fake Arya, but between missing and fake Arya, a huge gap of time, the arrival of Robb's people, and his own kids missing, the death of Cat, the red wedding, the betrayals, and the death of Ned Stark,   why the hell would he not contact the adopted son of his best friend who is the known Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Hell just some condolences. Everyone else on the planet can get a letter to the damn Wall. Howland has not just been absent, he has been ridiculously absent. By the time Howland shows up he will be nothing more than a plot device. Varys and Illyrio have more development than this guy. Friggin Illyrio. Grey Worm has more development than this guy. Howlands own kids don't even talk about him directly they constantly just allude to him. I don't know if the Reed children have been keeping track, but the North just got obliterated, so when Bran asks some questions about your father maybe give him some direct in depth answers that could help rather than maybe he did and maybe he didn't, he can hop on a flower and drink mudd are not helping. Oh lets be secretive it will be cute, no, no it's not, his entire family just got axed, the north got slaughtered he is on the run trying to find a magic bird, the Others are coming and they decide to be cute and illusive in communicating.

Bran is constantly like what did they mean. If Howland shows up and is like up down, east west , Jon you had a mother and father, the winds of time will shape their names upon you, the land is one silly Dire Wolf trix are for kids.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

Although i tend to believe that tourney happened somewhere in the middle of the year, then Rhaegar went home and witnessed the birth of Aegon then he eloped, but I still think there is some possibility that Aegon was born before the tourney. maybe GRRM just forgot about the situation of Elia. He could set Aegon was born in September and make the tourney in Nov. 

If Aegon was born in September, he was conceived in December, leaving only some two to three months for Elia's half a year of bedrest. And since two to three months is not even close to half a year, I'd say it is highly unlikely.

[corbon]

You're right, of course, but as it is said here, appetite grows with eating. There is no telling whether at not even fifteen, Lyanna was prudent enough not to press her luck. We are told repeatedly how the tourney atmosphere can affect people, and she has just tasted her first victory: she avenged Howland, and pulled everyone by their noses. She might have wanted to continue just because, why the heck not - she was young and strong and it was spring and she had no idea about the danger.

I doubt it. Note how the KotLT (not K/colt I'm afraid - if you have the o, the t belongs as well) challenges only in the very late afternoon, "as the shadows grew long". I suspect that the mystery knight was the last challenge of the day, especially as it was a triple challenge and involved the public horse/armour-ransoming attempts. And I rather suspect that was deliberately planned, so that no pavilion would have time to be erected and a quick, permanent, overnight disappearance could be effected. Lyanna Stark could not have remained missing for the whole time the KotLT competed, with pavilion and all (squire etc?), the next day. 

So, I see a plan carried out, and extreme difficulties with changing that plan to continue the next day. Getting 'caught up in it' doesn't add up in my view - virtually impossible to achieve the logistics of it for one thing, and she'd have to hurry away to disarm in hiding and clean up ready for the evening festivities for another, and have all evening to get un-caught up for a third.
And all that is totally ignoring how Aerys reacted.

I don't know if Lyanna is shut down or she just decides to stop because she has accomplished her mission.

As noted above, I think its quite clear she started her mission carefully timed to end almost immediately and it would have been impractical for her to continue the next day even before Aerys' declared enmity. Champions are expected to set up their pavilions at the end of the lists ready to receive challengers...

It's an interesting question of who would do the "shutting down" - her elder brothers or the crown prince - but I just don't have enough information to make a judgement of what I think is more likely. What intrigues me more is the need for Brandon and Eddard to shut this mystery knight down and find out who "he" is - regardless of whether they actually succeed in doing so. Given the political tensions between House Stark and the crown I don't think the brothers can afford to let it go on and have to look into who is fueling the fire between Winterfell and King's Landing. Or does Brandon like the tensions to be tightened? Also of interest is, if Rhaegar meets with Lyanna upon finding her with the armor and shield, does she tell her brothers about the meeting - in whole or in part. The reasons I ask is it is interesting considering other events we know of happening in the tourney at the time. For instance, I'd love to know when Brandon challenges Rhaegar or vice versa during the jousting. And other more important questions of timing as well.

Well, I think the question of shutting down is moot.

If forced to guess, I would suggest that Brandon probably challenged Rhaegar. You only challenge once in this format remember - if you win you become a champion and now have to wait to be challenged between others, until only the champions remain. The final tilt with Barristan would have been the two champions squaring off (they were down to two from five after the KotLT knocked out three then failed to turn up the next morning). That give Rhaegar 3 other bouts at least to fight, and Yoyce is named as the first of those, so whether its 1/3rd odds or much less due to the text ordering of his known bouts, and/or further unnamed bouts, its still unlikely Rhaegar challenged Brandon.
That also means that Dayne challenged Rhaegar, interestingly.

The Jousting lasted for 5 days. The KotLT episode was on day 2. Morning 3 and KotLT does not appear and Aerys sends Rhaegar to find him. I would suggest Rhaegar spent most or all of day/evening 3 interviewing the 3 squires about why those three needed to be taught honour and others and searching for the KotLT. I suspect he figured out it was Lyanna and by day 4 or early day 5 decided to win the tourney and award her the crown as a mark of respect/honour/admiration.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

 

I doubt it. Note how the KotLT (not K/colt I'm afraid - if you have the o, the t belongs as well) challenges only in the very late afternoon, "as the shadows grew long". I suspect that the mystery knight was the last challenge of the day, especially as it was a triple challenge and involved the public horse/armour-ransoming attempts. And I rather suspect that was deliberately planned, so that no pavilion would have time to be erected and a quick, permanent, overnight disappearance could be effected. Lyanna Stark could not have remained missing for the whole time the KotLT competed, with pavilion and all (squire etc?), the next day. 

So, I see a plan carried out, and extreme difficulties with changing that plan to continue the next day. Getting 'caught up in it' doesn't add up in my view - virtually impossible to achieve the logistics of it for one thing, and she'd have to hurry away to disarm in hiding and clean up ready for the evening festivities for another, and have all evening to get un-caught up for a third.
And all that is totally ignoring how Aerys reacted.

A good point about the timing, I'm afraid I completely missed that. Yes, it does sound more like a well-planned and brief action, and perhaps even a part of the disguise. - Dunno how tourneys go, can anyone remember if people tend to gather, or leave towards the end of the day? If the latter, then Brandon and Ned might have left, which would be convenient for Lyanna (though I'd willingly pay with gold just to see their face when realizing "heck, that's sis!")

[purple-eyes]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If Aegon was born in September, he was conceived in December, leaving only some two to three months for Elia's half a year of bedrest. And since two to three months is not even close to half a year, I'd say it is highly unlikely.

Yeah, that is why I said GRRM simply forgot about that. In either case (Aegon was born before or after the tourney), GRRM forgot something. In the former, he forgot Elia had to rest for half year. In the latter, he forgot Elia was pregnant at the tourney.

because if she rest for half year and aegon was still born in 281, then Elia was surely pregnant as latest as March.

Then during the tourney, she must be in the middle of her pregnancy considering so many things happened later (a travel, a battle, a visit, a month visit, then a travel to HH). But GRRM did not mention that at all.

[purple-eyes]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

 

I doubt it. Note how the KotLT (not K/colt I'm afraid - if you have the o, the t belongs as well) challenges only in the very late afternoon, "as the shadows grew long". I suspect that the mystery knight was the last challenge of the day, especially as it was a triple challenge and involved the public horse/armour-ransoming attempts. And I rather suspect that was deliberately planned, so that no pavilion would have time to be erected and a quick, permanent, overnight disappearance could be effected. Lyanna Stark could not have remained missing for the whole time the KotLT competed, with pavilion and all (squire etc?), the next day. 

So, I see a plan carried out, and extreme difficulties with changing that plan to continue the next day. Getting 'caught up in it' doesn't add up in my view - virtually impossible to achieve the logistics of it for one thing, and she'd have to hurry away to disarm in hiding and clean up ready for the evening festivities for another, and have all evening to get un-caught up for a third.
And all that is totally ignoring how Aerys reacted.

As noted above, I think its quite clear she started her mission carefully timed to end almost immediately and it would have been impractical for her to continue the next day even before Aerys' declared enmity. Champions are expected to set up their pavilions at the end of the lists ready to receive challengers...

Well, I think the question of shutting down is moot.

If forced to guess, I would suggest that Brandon probably challenged Rhaegar. You only challenge once in this format remember - if you win you become a champion and now have to wait to be challenged between others, until only the champions remain. The final tilt with Barristan would have been the two champions squaring off (they were down to two from five after the KotLT knocked out three then failed to turn up the next morning). That give Rhaegar 3 other bouts at least to fight, and Yoyce is named as the first of those, so whether its 1/3rd odds or much less due to the text ordering of his known bouts, and/or further unnamed bouts, its still unlikely Rhaegar challenged Brandon.
That also means that Dayne challenged Rhaegar, interestingly.

The Jousting lasted for 5 days. The KotLT episode was on day 2. Morning 3 and KotLT does not appear and Aerys sends Rhaegar to find him. I would suggest Rhaegar spent most or all of day/evening 3 interviewing the 3 squires about why those three needed to be taught honour and others and searching for the KotLT. I suspect he figured out it was Lyanna and by day 4 or early day 5 decided to win the tourney and award her the crown as a mark of respect/honour/admiration.

Oh, this long?

I always thought rhaegar found out the truth over that same day. it should not be this hard, I guess.

I think since only two champions showed up, so three more would be named again.

Then they still have five champions in the end.

Which would be Arhur, Barri, Rhaegar, Brandon and Yohn Royce.

Then they had some sort of cyclic fight, like the modern soccer games.

rhaegar defeated all of them and won.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

 

I doubt it. Note how the KotLT (not K/colt I'm afraid - if you have the o, the t belongs as well) challenges only in the very late afternoon, "as the shadows grew long". I suspect that the mystery knight was the last challenge of the day, especially as it was a triple challenge and involved the public horse/armour-ransoming attempts. And I rather suspect that was deliberately planned, so that no pavilion would have time to be erected and a quick, permanent, overnight disappearance could be effected. Lyanna Stark could not have remained missing for the whole time the KotLT competed, with pavilion and all (squire etc?), the next day. 

So, I see a plan carried out, and extreme difficulties with changing that plan to continue the next day. Getting 'caught up in it' doesn't add up in my view - virtually impossible to achieve the logistics of it for one thing, and she'd have to hurry away to disarm in hiding and clean up ready for the evening festivities for another, and have all evening to get un-caught up for a third.
And all that is totally ignoring how Aerys reacted.

As noted above, I think its quite clear she started her mission carefully timed to end almost immediately and it would have been impractical for her to continue the next day even before Aerys' declared enmity. Champions are expected to set up their pavilions at the end of the lists ready to receive challengers...

Well, I think the question of shutting down is moot.

If forced to guess, I would suggest that Brandon probably challenged Rhaegar. You only challenge once in this format remember - if you win you become a champion and now have to wait to be challenged between others, until only the champions remain. The final tilt with Barristan would have been the two champions squaring off (they were down to two from five after the KotLT knocked out three then failed to turn up the next morning). That give Rhaegar 3 other bouts at least to fight, and Yoyce is named as the first of those, so whether its 1/3rd odds or much less due to the text ordering of his known bouts, and/or further unnamed bouts, its still unlikely Rhaegar challenged Brandon.
That also means that Dayne challenged Rhaegar, interestingly.

The Jousting lasted for 5 days. The KotLT episode was on day 2. Morning 3 and KotLT does not appear and Aerys sends Rhaegar to find him. I would suggest Rhaegar spent most or all of day/evening 3 interviewing the 3 squires about why those three needed to be taught honour and others and searching for the KotLT. I suspect he figured out it was Lyanna and by day 4 or early day 5 decided to win the tourney and award her the crown as a mark of respect/honour/admiration.

Oh, this long?

I always thought rhaegar found out the truth over that same day. it should not be this hard, I guess.

I think since only two champions showed up, so three more would be named again.

Then they still have five champions in the end.

Which would be Arhur, Barri, Rhaegar, Brandon and Yohn Royce.

Then they had some sort of cyclic fight, like the modern soccer games.

rhaegar defeated all of them and won.

 

 

[UnViserion]

I wonder if Barristan let Rhaegar win. Wouldn't put it past him

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 hours ago, Rhaegar the Unworthy said:

I wonder if Barristan let Rhaegar win. Wouldn't put it past him

Really? How so? I can't recall seeing anything pointing in that direction..

[J. Stargaryen]

4 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Really? How so? I can't recall seeing anything pointing in that direction..

Such speculation is usually based on a combination of the rigged tourney at Whitewalls in TMK, and this thought from Ser Barristan:

Quote

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … ADwD, The Kingbreaker

Someone took it a step further and once argued that Ser Barristan meant the bold in terms of chivalry rather than skill. I think there was another passage quoted to support the argument, but I don't recall it offhand.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Such speculation is usually based on a combination of the rigged tourney at Whitewalls in TMK, and this thought from Ser Barristan:

Someone took it a step further and once argued that Ser Barristan meant the bold in terms of chivalry rather than skill. I think there was another passage quoted to support the argument, but I don't recall it offhand.

In fact it does make sense that they want to make a public relationship winning for rhaegar. 

Who knew Aerys better than KG? I bet they all agree Aerys is mad. 

And world book specifically said the winning of rhaegar made a great contrast over his daddy among the audience. Young, brave and capable. Great advertisement. It is a great chance. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Such speculation is usually based on a combination of the rigged tourney at Whitewalls in TMK, and this thought from Ser Barristan:

Someone took it a step further and once argued that Ser Barristan meant the bold in terms of chivalry rather than skill. I think there was another passage quoted to support the argument, but I don't recall it offhand.

But, if that was the case, Barristan was part of the plotting at Harrenhal.. Not very deeply involved, but still involved. And yet, he states that

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Which makes it sound as if Barristan was just a bystander, aware of the fact that something was happening (something he was either aware of right then and there, or only afterwards), he just didn't know what, because Rhaegar hadn't trusted him with that secret.

[J. Stargaryen]

52 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

But, if that was the case, Barristan was part of the plotting at Harrenhal.. Not very deeply involved, but still involved. And yet, he states that

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Which makes it sound as if Barristan was just a bystander, aware of the fact that something was happening (something he was either aware of right then and there, or only afterwards), he just didn't know what, because Rhaegar hadn't trusted him with that secret.

I agree with you. I was just presenting the argument(s) I've seen. I don't think anyone let Rhaegar win. I think he was just finally able to beat Dayne and Selmy in the same tourney, instead of beating one and losing to the other in the finals. As he did in Lannisport and Storm's End.