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Lord Wraith

R+L=J v.157

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Rant

Like I said, Trying too hard.  

 

Listen, what you're doing is nothing new (if you want to use your patterns uh... pattern), you're attempting to assign depth and meaning to something that doesn't exist in a body of written work.  You have none, zero, zilch evidence to support this 'theory', yet you press with it.  Now, while I thought I'd seen all the batshit crazy geek gospels that have been thrown out with regards to the books, and this probable truth (R+L=J), yours was a refreshing, yet crazy on a whole other level, swing for the fences.  You've taken thousands and thousands of pages, found a few examples that fit into your strange little algorithm, worked them out, and have came up with, what you think to be, some sort of Grand Unified Theory of Martendom.  You have no evidence to support it in his other works (shockingly he's written more than just books about dragons and shit), nothing in terms of 'leaked' evidence from the author or his camp, or any indication that he may enjoy throwing little cookies into his books like the ones you mention.  People who have a limited understanding of the randomness of the world attempt to order it, and usually fail, much like you're doing at the moment.  These usually result in religious offshoots or crackpots living in cabins in the woods, so I'm actually a little happy to see that you've only taken it to this level.  Try and keep it there.

 As for evidence, or 'critical thinking':  This type of silliness was fun, say, five years ago, maybe six when I first joined the board, and everything was new and fresh, and it seemed like Georgie knew what the fuck he was doing.  I guess I might have grown a bit cynical since then, and now realize that most of the time this type of conversation is just a mild amusement and that most folks up here are wildly off the mark when it comes to even the most basic of understandings with regards to our little corner of fandom.  

Your argument to me look like this:  

You:  I've got a little too much time on my hands, and this thing with numbers.  I'm going to shoehorn my patterns theory into martins work and stand firm with the idea that it fits.  I have no evidence for this, but by god i'm stubborn, so i'm going to call it critical thinking, and hope I can fool folks with my text bombs and hope they don't actually see through my bullshit.

 

Me:  George is making up all this shit as he goes along 

 

Which one sounds more plausible to you?

 

Also, if the show 'hits the basic details' and your batshit crazy theory is actually something that is fundamental to the work, wouldn't it, it some way, be included in the show?  Surely Georgie wouldn't have let them leave out something that he has worked so hard to include, and is crucial to the story?

 

But again, I think you're just trying too hard. 

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Like I said, Trying too hard.  

 

Listen, what you're doing is nothing new (if you want to use your patterns uh... pattern), you're attempting to assign depth and meaning to something that doesn't exist in a body of written work.  You have none, zero, zilch evidence to support this 'theory', yet you press with it.  Now, while I thought I'd seen all the batshit crazy geek gospels that have been thrown out with regards to the books, and this probable truth (R+L=J), yours was a refreshing, yet crazy on a whole other level, swing for the fences.  You've taken thousands and thousands of pages, found a few examples that fit into your strange little algorithm, worked them out, and have came up with, what you think to be, some sort of Grand Unified Theory of Martendom.  You have no evidence to support it in his other works (shockingly he's written more than just books about dragons and shit), nothing in terms of 'leaked' evidence from the author or his camp, or any indication that he may enjoy throwing little cookies into is books like the ones you mention.  People who have a limited understanding of the randomness of the world attempt to order it, and usually fail, much like you're doing at the moment.  These usually result in religious offshoots or crackpots living in cabins in the woods, so I'm actually a little happy to see that you've only taken it to this level.  Try and keep it there.

 As for evidence, or 'critical thinking':  This type of silliness was fun, say, five years ago, maybe six when I first joined the board, and everything was new and fresh, and it seemed like Georgie knew what the fuck he was doing.  I guess I might have grown a bit cynical since then, and now realize that most of the time this type of conversation is just a mild amusement and that most folks up here are wildly off the mark when it comes to even the most basic of understandings with regards to our little corner of fandom.  

You're argument to me look like this:  

You:  I've got a little too much time on my hands, and this thing with numbers.  I'm going to shoehorn my patterns theory into martins work and stand firm with the idea that it fits.  I have no evidence for this, but by god i'm stubborn, so i'm going to call it critical thinking, and hope I can fool folks with my text bombs and hope they don't actually see through my bullshit.

 

Me:  George is making up all this shit as he goes along 

 

Which one sounds more plausible to you?

 

Also, if the show 'hits the basic details' and your batshit crazy theory is actually something that is fundamental to the work, wouldn't it, it some way, be included in the show?  Surely Georgie wouldn't have let them leave out something that he has worked so hard to include, and is crucial to the story?

 

But again, I think you're just trying too hard. 

well said. Couldn't have put it better myself.

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Like I said, Trying too hard.  

 

Listen, what you're doing is nothing new (if you want to use your patterns uh... pattern), you're attempting to assign depth and meaning to something that doesn't exist in a body of written work.  You have none, zero, zilch evidence to support this 'theory', yet you press with it.  Now, while I thought I'd seen all the batshit crazy geek gospels that have been thrown out with regards to the books, and this probable truth (R+L=J), yours was a refreshing, yet crazy on a whole other level, swing for the fences.  You've taken thousands and thousands of pages, found a few examples that fit into your strange little algorithm, worked them out, and have came up with, what you think to be, some sort of Grand Unified Theory of Martendom.  You have no evidence to support it in his other works (shockingly he's written more than just books about dragons and shit), nothing in terms of 'leaked' evidence from the author or his camp, or any indication that he may enjoy throwing little cookies into his books like the ones you mention.  People who have a limited understanding of the randomness of the world attempt to order it, and usually fail, much like you're doing at the moment.  These usually result in religious offshoots or crackpots living in cabins in the woods, so I'm actually a little happy to see that you've only taken it to this level.  Try and keep it there.

 As for evidence, or 'critical thinking':  This type of silliness was fun, say, five years ago, maybe six when I first joined the board, and everything was new and fresh, and it seemed like Georgie knew what the fuck he was doing.  I guess I might have grown a bit cynical since then, and now realize that most of the time this type of conversation is just a mild amusement and that most folks up here are wildly off the mark when it comes to even the most basic of understandings with regards to our little corner of fandom.  

Your argument to me look like this:  

You:  I've got a little too much time on my hands, and this thing with numbers.  I'm going to shoehorn my patterns theory into martins work and stand firm with the idea that it fits.  I have no evidence for this, but by god i'm stubborn, so i'm going to call it critical thinking, and hope I can fool folks with my text bombs and hope they don't actually see through my bullshit.

 

Me:  George is making up all this shit as he goes along 

 

Which one sounds more plausible to you?

 

Also, if the show 'hits the basic details' and your batshit crazy theory is actually something that is fundamental to the work, wouldn't it, it some way, be included in the show?  Surely Georgie wouldn't have let them leave out something that he has worked so hard to include, and is crucial to the story?

 

But again, I think you're just trying too hard. 

 

 

Lets break down what you said and what I have said. I want you to pay attention to what you are saying, it's very telling.

"Listen, what you're doing is nothing new (if you want to use your patterns uh... pattern)"

I know I actually said this, I never said patterns are new, I specifically said it's human nature several time. You ignored that several times. There not my patterns I didn't invent human nature.

"You have none, zero, zilch evidence to support this 'theory"

So I gave you no examples, or support? I actually gave you over dozen examples and offered more.

"You've taken thousands and thousands of pages, found a few examples that fit into your strange little algorithm"

I thought you said I didn't give you and evidence? Now I gave you evidence but not enough. Make up your mind. But this is just a good example of you once again saying one thing and then another. Look I gotta ask what are you upset about because you came in here with a chip on your shoulder and you were being condescending. It seems like you came in here looking to pick a fight.

"algorithm"

What algorithm? You mean R+L=J, I didn't go into formula. I am talking about repetitive symbolism, Yes I am bat shit crazy and think authors use literary devices, how strange and out there, so wild and crazy.

You have yet to offer a single counter point by the way. Your counter point if you can call it that is no because you said so. Just like no he is not doing Campbell but then say yes he is doing Campbell, make up your mind man. You are also going into a lot of anger and unrelated issues, look at the end of your post, nothing to do with anything I have said.

"what you think to be, some sort of Grand Unified Theory of Martendom."

No, I said he uses symbolism and umm he sometimes repeats the symbolism, like the blue roses. By the way only used a few times in the books, in all those thousands of pages you mention, should he just do it on every page? Would that be heavy handed enough for you? Do you think there is a point to the blue roses? Clearly they are not used enough for you, it's only in the books a few times after all, not nearly enough for you that is or at least according to what you are saying. By the way I gave the blue roses as one of the examples of symbolism being used more than once.

"You have no evidence to support it in his other works (shockingly he's written more than just books about dragons and shit), nothing in terms of 'leaked' evidence from the author or his camp, or any indication that he may enjoy throwing little cookies into his books like the ones you mention."

Leaked information? Who said anything about leaked information? Are we talking about a different subject here? You are going off on stuff that has nothing to do with what I said. You are going off about algorithms, unified theory, leaked information and none of it has anything to do with what I wrote about. The only thing I said was that patterns exist in math, writing, learning, life, language etc... I have been and continue to be talking about repetitive use of symbolism and yes I promise you he uses symbolism in his other works, it is a very basic literary device. All the examples I gave of patterns was to show that humans as any anthropologist will tell you use patterns in their daily lives. When I say 13 or 3 you seem to be thinking math, I am wondering if there is symbolic meaning. The Blue rose is now a cookie. That is new, you could write theory about that. Promise I will read your cookie theory. It's almost like when you say cookie it is symbolic of somethin... Never mind couldn't be there is no symbolism, no metaphors, it's all just random. You said that didn't you? You are implying it is all random.

I am going to give the same examples again and ask one question. The same question I always ask.

13

The 13 of Qarth

The Night's King 13th Lord Commander

Bloodraven Lord Commander for 13 years.

The 13 offer Dany 13 ships Xaro ask her to Marry him.

The Last hero 13 companions.

Do you think there is any symbolic meaning to 13?

"religious offshoots or crackpots living in cabins in the woods, so I'm actually a little happy to see that you've only taken it to this level.  Try and keep it there."

Oh ok, well looking at your post and mine it seems you are the one actually taking it there. In fact you keep saying I said all these things I didn't say. You brought them up, you also keep double talking. "That's probably right but it is wrong, you gave zero example, except for the examples that you gave." You are double talking, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Why?

Here this will help you with human patterned behavior. Which I used as an example addressing weather or not he would finish the books. That is the conclusion of the first post. Would he finish the books and answer some questions?

http://www.northeastern.edu/news/stories/2010/02/network_science.html

http://www.northeastern.edu/news/stories/2010/02/network_science.html

I could give you a lot of examples of three in the text, and ask you the same question as I did for 13 but I am afraid you will claim the number does not exist and you never heard of it. Simple, 3 fires must you light, the dragon has 3 heads, 3 treason's you will know, 3 mounts, 3 dragons, child of three, 3 cities, 3 walls, does any of that ring a bell from the books? I am going to regret this but do you think there is a reason he does that or that it was random and he didn't notice? You are suggesting everything is random. You want some random writing?

wafi nbarg;nb;rbgaa'gjhyneawr

']jm n

That is totally random writing, did it make any sense? Letters are symbols, we apply sound to those symbols, we combine the sounds to make words, we apply meaning to the words for understanding. It is not random at all.

Now speaking of patterned behavior, you see that little Avatar you got? Clockwork Orange right? Well you know the structure of that novel is patterned after musical forms right? Yes it has a pattern and yes authors do shit like that. Just like one of the main themes was patterned behavior. Yes what you argue against is actually the opposite of the symbolism related to your avatar. You know they show him the images because the images lead to a predictable response. They know this because it is a patterned condition.  Sure it is fiction and rudimentary but the idea is based of patterned behavioral response. I can't believe I have to try and explain this it's not that complex.

Now see I gave two very difficult questions, very basic, but they may be difficult for you. Now don't worry about patterned behavior, just take the repeated examples I gave of those numbers and think is there some reason he does it? You don't have to try and apply meaning, I didn't, you claim I did, I didn't actually. I said I don't know what it means. You would actually know that if you read what I actually said. I don't actually think you fully read either post as you never actually addressed what I wrote, just some broken parts that you took out of context. Or in some cases you just made stuff up. So with the repeated use of those numbers, do you think there is some symbolic meaning, or does it allude to something? It is very simple, yes? No? Maybe? That's it, does that really seem that complex to you?

Next time instead of coming in here and insulting me and other people really, you could just ask a question, because you are clearly upset and it does not have a lot to do with me or what I wrote. Look where your post ends up going.

"(shockingly he's written more than just books about dragons and shit)"

Sure, I know this, I have read a lot of his stuff. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about and now you seem like you are mad about these books and I am not even sure what it has to do with you coming in here and acting the way you are. Do you understand that you are angry, that your first post was you being condescending and looking to pick a fight? Really for no reason, you didn't even really talk about what I said, and this second post has you accusing me of things I never even mentioned.

"As for evidence, or 'critical thinking':  This type of silliness was fun, say, five years ago, maybe six when I first joined the board,"

Okay so now we are getting to the bottom of things, because now you are going away from the argument into what is really bugging you. You are not having fun anymore and I am guessing that bothers you. You mention to much time on my hands but you have been coming here for 6 years and it is no longer fun for you. Sick of waiting? It's okay everyone is, sounds like it was fun here for you back then. I am sorry you are not having any fun. Maybe if you didn't come in here with a chip on your shoulder looking for an argument you could of had some fun. You may not have agreed with what I said but you really didn't have to insult me or other people that come in here. Which you did do. I really can't help you with how it was here six years ago, I would not know, I was deployed, didn't come home till about 4 years ago.

"and everything was new and fresh, and it seemed like Georgie knew what the fuck he was doing."

Oh boy, oh boy looks like Georgie is on your shit list too and apparently he does not know what he is doing either, maybe me and him should get together and go bowling. Those last couple of statements are pretty telling. You got to much time on your hands, you don't feel like there is anything left to say about the books and this is a place you have been coming for 6 years and it's losing it's purpose for you, or has lost it. You are pissed at "Georgie" because he is taking his time and you feel like he no longer has a clue. And at the same time you are being robbed of your fun because the site is losing it's purpose and what are you going to do with this aspect of your free time? Maybe you ask yourself where have all these other posters gone that used to be here, maybe you miss some of them. Maybe you are tired of the same old repetition and patterns and even thinking about it pisses you off. Still coming here after 6 years and it's always the same bullshit these days right? Any of that sound familiar?

Look I don't want to argue with you and you will probably say what you got to say, but you got more going on than just being bothered by a perfectly innocent post about human nature, repetition and symbolism in literature. I hope you feel better, a new book will come out eventually, you got the show. Unless you hate the show, then I would suggest not watching it. You know there was probably something in my post you enjoyed and that in turn pissed off because why can I still have fun and not you. Maybe do something you enjoy, or something new. Sorry the site is not fun for anymore and you feel Martin is letting you down,  but it's not my job to make things fun for you and I have no control over what Martin writes or when it comes out, so don't lay your bullshit on me. You come back and talk to me when you feel like you're in a better mood, I don't hold internet BS or debates personnel. Go see Star Wars or something, or maybe not, did it piss you off too? Did you see it? I thought it was fun, it probably pissed you off but I enjoyed it. 

ETA: Umm just so you know inverse parallels and symbolism did make the show. Sun and Moon, also made the world book, Maiden and Lion and child. And 13 made the show, Ran pointed it out, didn't you count the Others in season 4? He did, 13.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yup.  Trying too hard. 

Maybe, you know I actually never mind trying hard, it's the people that don't try I find kind of worthless. But I still managed to answer your questions about the show with facts from the show. Because you wanted facts, and the fact is 13 made the show and you were given a pair of Kings from it. Inverse symbolism and parallels also made the show.  Sun and moon that kind of stuff. So according to your own post, I am right and it must be important. You are very welcome, now you got something new to talk about, which you so desperately claim you needed in your last post.

Would you like the supporting Video and text from the Game of thrones Wiki? Or you could watch the episodes, it's up to you. I got to use some spoiler tags for show related content even though it is older.

13 of Qarth and the new King of Qarth are addressed here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw_dDGs_mqM

 

The supporting Game of Thrones wiki has a nice picture of the 13, you even actually get 12 Warlocks and a King at one point. You know the Blue guys.

 

More on 13

The 13 Others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XOawFDdUsA

You can go ahead and pause that around 1:45 - 1:50 or watch the whole scene it's cool scene.

13 12 Others and one shinny Night's King.

 

"Once inside, the White Walker approaches an icy altar ringed by large icy spikes and places the baby upon the altar. In the distance, a group of thirteen black-garbed White Walkers are revealed to be viewing the proceedings from afar. One of them breaks from the middle of their number and approaches the altar, stopping to regard the human child for a moment before gently gathering him in its arms."

Supporting Wiki

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Night's_King

 

The text is under season 4.

Now remember you did ask for these.

"Also, if the show 'hits the basic details' and your batshit crazy theory is actually something that is fundamental to the work, wouldn't it, it some way, be included in the show?  Surely Georgie wouldn't have let them leave out something that he has worked so hard to include, and is crucial to the story?"

Your exact words not mine. See they didn't leave it out. Maybe you could try to pay a little better attention to the details, but they clearly did not leave out 13 and we get a parallel of Kings and Blue dudes. It's kind of cool if you think about it, or you can go be angry and brood about the last 6 years of your life some more and then yell about Martin not finishing the books yet. Now I am thinking I have given you stuff from the books and now video and supporting text from the show which you asked for. I am thinking you may want to consider this, I don't know how much more you will ask for, cause you keep asking for more. It's not like I can have Martin come to your house and apologize to you for making you wait and then have him read you a 1500 page Bedtime story called Winds of Winter. But examples from the books, the show, supporting video and text is not to shabby. More than one video and more than one example which include what appears to be a parallel.

I am gonna go have a fun size snickers I earned. If you are nice I'll teach you all about the symbolism behind Euron, with a multi source text support and pictures.

Would you like to know about the Parallels between the Others and the Bloodmasters from Fevre Dream? Or how he uses the metaphor of slavery with both?

Do you want to know why the Night's King wants to marry Dany? It is very Bram Stokerish,  that is where I suspect he will add depth to the Night's King rather than random big bad. It's funny he gave identical quotes about the Vampires and the Others, one in canon and one out of. Something Joshua said and something Martin said.

You want a parallel between the Dothraki and the Others, it's a great metaphor.

How about an answer to part of a prophecy which is all about perspective and a character in book teaches you how to look at it.

There is always stuff to talk about. Right or wrong there is some good stuff floating around that people don't really talk about.

Oh and one last time, you're weeeeeeelcome because I know those video clips are just what you wanted. Nothing new to talk about? I don't think so, maybe you should try a little harder next time and not be such a sour Sally. Ok tell me your feelings on 13 and how it made the show. How does it make you feel to see that parallel? How do you feel now that you got what you asked for? As you say Martin probably totally pushed for it because he was like "man that Ser Creighton rocks, he just gets me, and I hope he writes one of his vintage parody posts those are the best, he is like a Saint only better."

 

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Yeah, the point of a forum is to discuss theories and it wouldn't be taking Martin almost two decades to write this If he wasn't thinking about it.

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Yeah, the point of a forum is to discuss theories and it wouldn't be taking Martin almost two decades to write this If he wasn't thinking about it.

I agree but I think it's best left to drop it, I gave him what he asked for, there was clearly something else bothering him and it's nice and calm now and the thread can get back on the subject of R+L=J. Sorry if there was a distraction, had no intention of a derail or how it even went there. Normally I totally plan stuff like that.

Anyway I keep seeing a couple of threads based off R+L=J lately but they are like X+Y=J (Rhaegar and Lyanna). Plus a lot of recent push back against the most widely excepted theory out there. Any idea what is going on? Is it Crackpot to be crackpot stuff, or intentional alternatives? There is also like a Hersey thread about it, bit it is not in the Hersey thread it's a separate thread, but the original Hersey thread was the alternative to R+L=J, so now there is an alternative to the alternative but it's still about R+L=J but it's an alternative. Does that make sense?

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Anyway I keep seeing a couple of threads based off R+L=J lately but they are like X+Y=J (Rhaegar and Lyanna). Plus a lot of recent push back against the most widely excepted theory out there. Any idea what is going on? Is it Crackpot to be crackpot stuff, or intentional alternatives? There is also like a Hersey thread about it, bit it is not in the Hersey thread it's a separate thread, but the original Hersey thread was the alternative to R+L=J, so now there is an alternative to the alternative but it's still about R+L=J but it's an alternative. Does that make sense?

The heretics have been building these thread OPs on another site and are slowly posting them here for review. There is 9? I think, each with a different X+Y=J, except IIRC 1 is supposed to be a catch-all or composite for several similar options.

They don't think its crackpot. These are supposed to be serious attempts to show each alternative theory in the best light possible.

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The heretics have been building these thread OPs on another site and are slowly posting them here for review. There is 9? I think, each with a different X+Y=J, except IIRC 1 is supposed to be a catch-all or composite for several similar options.

They don't think its crackpot. These are supposed to be serious attempts to show each alternative theory in the best light possible.

Ok so they are basically exploring different options and trying to be reasonable about it? To each their own. When I say crackpot you know how sometimes people right theories to be crackpot? I thought maybe that. I saw one and a poster was like the blue rose is about Dany and only relevant to her so I was like later, and I am huge Dany fan. When you start going the Blue Roses have nothing to do with Jon I got wonder if it is crackpot.

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Ok so they are basically exploring different options and trying to be reasonable about it? To each their own. When I say crackpot you know how sometimes people right theories to be crackpot? I thought maybe that. I saw one and a poster was like the blue rose is about Dany and only relevant to her so I was like later, and I am huge Dany fan. When you start going the Blue Roses have nothing to do with Jon I got wonder if it is crackpot.

The thing that always amused me about the House of the Undying visions is that we are told by Pyat Pree that not all of them are true.

"By no means," Pyat Pree said. "Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right. Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber."

For perfect example we see a vision that was probably Rhaego: A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion etc. So we already told false visions will be seen are shown a false vision and yet everyone assumes that the rest are 100% true.  

Frankly I put more stock in Marwyn's view of prophecy.

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

 

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The thing that always amused me about the House of the Undying visions is that we are told by Pyat Pree that not all of them are true.

For perfect example we see a vision that was probably Rhaego: A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion etc. So we already told false visions will be seen are shown a false vision and yet everyone assumes that the rest are 100% true.  

Frankly I put more stock in Marwyn's view of prophecy.

 

Well it's not false it's just a vision, the vision is not the danger, it is the interpretation of the vision. Like Mel, Mel is loose canon. Most of them have been accurate enough, and Jojen, Moqorro, Bloodraven and Dany have given some strong visions. Many visions go uninterpreted with characters, specifically Dany. A vision does not even need to be a prophecy, a prophecy is a prophecy. A vision of the past, is not a prophecy but it is still a vision. Most of the time the visions seem to be clues or foreshadowing, the danger actually becomes how we interpret them. It's not really a danger but we can make mistakes. We can interpret symbolism, tone, meaning, dialogue as well. Just like the characters, we can make mistakes. Martin spoke about it once, and basically pointed to the danger of interpretation, and told an old story about it. But the thing is, the prophecy he used as an example came true, it was just interpreted poorly by the Knight, though he died beneath the wall they said he would.

Martin has also spent a lot of time creating and writing visions and prophecies, and in some cases I can point out  the imagery he uses is shared and matches other visions. Think Bran in Mel's Vision and Robb in the undying, which was actually an accurate vision though not easy for Dany to understand, how could she? Heck a lot of the visions are not really for characters as much as they are for the readers.

"Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds. He smiles and reaches for her, but fire pours from his mouth and then he is consumed by fire."

So that is from her red door dream and Dany knows who it is, she also knows he is dead. That is from thrones.

"Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him."

So we see that this compliments her earlier vision. And the thing is Pyat did not lie, here you have something that did not come to pass.

She sees her father, that is no lie, Robb was no lie either and the text supports her past vision of Rhaegar. When I say that we know exactly what Rhaegar thought of Aegon and the Dragon having three heads because Aemon told us this.

Though for Dany some of these things are next to impossible for her to understand, she does not really dwell on them either, she spoke to Jorah about the three heads and that is about it. She has a great line from right after the Undying, well not right after but in the harbor.

"I went to the Warlocks hoping for answers, but instead they've left me with a hundred new questions."

And really it left everyone with a 100 new questions, and some of them have been answered haven't they? Like Robb, but only really answered for the reader, Dany has no clue about the Red Wedding. Robb Stark who? And that is just kind of the way he does it. Did come to pass? Yes.

That hallway is a funny place and I have a different view of it than most. Some things I have written about have some support though.

So the Hallway in the undying much like the Red door dream the Darkness begins to chase Dany right. We see a repeating idea and imagery there from a previous vision.

So lets look at what Pyat said to her. Oh and Yes R+L=J fans I will get to the Blue rose but most of you know, I go through a process when addressing something and tend to this long winded stuff, sorry it's just my method.

"Leaving and coming, it is the same."

Have you seen something similar to this before, the idea, the wording? Where opposing ideas or meaning can be no different?

"And now it begins, no and now it ends."

“Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."
"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled.”

Martin just expanded on the idea with the Reeds, and even so we see Ice and Fire play a role in both scenes. Coming and going, up, down, left and right, it's really the same it's just about perspective.

"Always up. Always the door to your right."

 Oh but the door didn't work, until Dany realized she had to change her perspective and what was left became right. The last door on the left is the first door on the right, if you simply turn around. And what happens when she turns around? Well the door opens, that's is one thing, but two other things occur. She is facing the Darkness and the visions she walked past are all now in chronological order from past to future. Well all except the first vision which is now the last vision of the women. Some people think they know what it means and Dany has never thought about it again. I personally believe it has to do with the future not the past or it may mean nothing. We don't really have a lot information on it.

But the Blue rose is not like that women, we have supporting information blue roses and Walls of ice. Now for Dany this means nothing. But to a reader, that's different. It may be relevant to her future but the story is not there yet. Or take Mummers Dragon, we have an idea about that for a reason and Dany may in the future, but right now it is pretty irrelevant to her and nothing she has really focused on. But again for the reader when Aegon shows up and we have Varys, it's like ok I get it to an extent. And still we had to wait like 12 years for that I think, we had to wait a long time, but it is still relevant and it does not appear to be a lie. If it is she will probably kill it slayer of lies and all. Hell what does that mean? We don't really know what it means yet and we can make assumptions, but just because we don't know does not it does not have a point in the books. The Red Wedding did not happen till the next book and Aegon did not show up till Dance yet these things appear to be getting addressed, it just happens to be over a very long window.

Now if you get back to perspective, and that is important with visions and prophecy as Martin actually demonstrated using a metaphor that he repeats. Do you remember when Yiggy had an argument with Jon about North and South. She kept saying he was from the south and he was like I am a Northern from the North. He lives in the North is what it is called, but Yiggy was like you are not from the north compared to me, anything south of the wall is the south to us. This made the show too by the way. And Jon is like yeah, I guess it just depends where you are standing. Which is true, and Martin loves using lots of different perspectives. And it does play it's hand in prophecy.

Remember the prophecy Mirri tells Dany, well it may be a prophecy it may not, we don't even know really. But it's good writing and he probably did not write it for no reason. Now I can't say this is a lock but tell me if this makes sense to you.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Now you know what I just showed you with perspective right? How can that first part ever be true? Well it's simple just like Yiggy and Jon and Dany in the house of dust it is just perspective. Dany is in the east, that is what it is commonly refereed to as, Essos, and Westeros is in the west, similar to terms we use in our own world. If Dany is standing in Westeros, the sun is rising in the west and when it is rising over Westeros, it is setting in Essos the east, simply because the world is round.  It is not literal it is just a little perspective on symbolic names that happen to be places. It rises in the land of the west and sets in the land of the east. Most of what she said you can fill in with some simple perspective, a sigil with a mountain on it, things like that. But who will return to her? Drogo? That is who she asked about right? But he is dead and burned. But her Sun and Stars could return to her, much the way the maiden returned after the long night, symbolic of light.

I leave you with one last thing about prophecy.

"Child of three, they had called her, daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire. So many threes. Three fires, three mounts to ride, three treason's. "The dragon has three heads," she sighed. "Do you know what that means, Jorah?"

Ok so it is not like Martin does not know he is using three or does this kind of stuff. He calls himself out on it right there.

'I went to the warlocks hoping for answers, but instead they've left me with a hundred new questions.'

And so I began and so I end my post, Martin has asked a lot of questions in the series and when it comes to the mysterious visions and prophecies he has been no different. But he does address them as I have attempted to show, it just takes time and perspective. We got a mummers dragon more than a decade later, a red wedding in the next book, some possible clues on perspective and how to view things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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For perfect example we see a vision that was probably Rhaego: A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion etc. So we already told false visions will be seen are shown a false vision and yet everyone assumes that the rest are 100% true.  

Yeah but you will note that this is a sort of alternative future, had Rhaego lived, not a completely unrelated BS. Kinda more like Galadriel's mirror, showing the past, the present, and future possibilities, but the viewer is warned that it would be dangerous to use the mirror as a guide for their action. 

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snip

I find your analyses to be fascinating. The question I pose in regards to "patterns" is how do you differentiate between a true pattern left by the author and coincidental writing by the author? Such as an author subconsciously picking 7 as a number because he likes that number not because there is any meaning to the number picked. When you have a world building as big as A Song of Ice and Fire I would imagine without any effort on the part of the author you would have reoccurring story elements and themes without any intention for a connection between the two. Especially because the author is drawing upon other stories he has read and loved and those elements might just be borrowed and not truly original.

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Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

 

 

From reading the world book it seems that Rhaegar's intent is to remove Aerys from the throne, rather than to change his own successor, of course the maester who's perspective we read may have just been spinning an anti aerys story to support the lannisters and their actions at the end of the war.

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I find your analyses to be fascinating. The question I pose in regards to "patterns" is how do you differentiate between a true pattern left by the author and coincidental writing by the author? Such as an author subconsciously picking 7 as a number because he likes that number not because there is any meaning to the number picked. When you have a world building as big as A Song of Ice and Fire I would imagine without any effort on the part of the author you would have reoccurring story elements and themes without any intention for a connection between the two. Especially because the author is drawing upon other stories he has read and loved and those elements might just be borrowed and not truly original.

Well there are patterns and there are patterns, I am talking real simple repetitive behavior. You bring up 7 and 7 is a good example, he uses 7 for the faith. And he gave them 7 gods, in truth he could of just used one god, and made it easy or 2, maybe 3, but he picked 7 and he created 7 different gods for them and he probably has a reason for doing that.

So like the examples I gave were the Blue rose, 13 and 3. Why? Partially because they have significance in our world as well and he uses them a good amount. But at no point does it make it easier on him, in fact things like the prophecies and the visions, make his job harder. I look at 3 because Martin basically told me too. He did that with Dany, hey what is with all threes? He is almost breaking the 4th wall there, because everyone after the Undying is going damn that was a lot and what is with all the threes, and what do all these visions mean? She is there identifying with the reader in that moment. So 3 has been following Dany around going back to the 3 eggs. Does and it continues weather it is all those prophecies or 3 slaver cities or 3 cities in the red waste or the three walls of Qarth. Aegon and his sisters, the sigil of her house, the 3 gods the dragons are named after Balarion on such. Martin did not need 3 cities in the red waste, one was fine, he didn't need 3 walls around Qarth. 

It is also where he uses the stuff, the House of the Undying and Dany and all her 3's it is significant to her story. Whatever it means he has clearly tied it to her. There is no doubt we see that repetition.

So when you get to 13 it is the same thing where does he use it. Last hero right? Night's King? Bloodraven? I gave some of the shows spoilers already. And we saw it in Qarth with the 13. So it would seem connected to the watch, the Others the war to come. Did that tell me anything about Qarth? Sure. When you look at the House of Dust scene it's basically a giant parallel to the Others. You got the Undying who are the undead, the cold, the blue, the giant heart floating above the room (heart of winter allusion), the Warlocks and the Others. Before that had given us this metaphor like imagery of the Dothraki sea and Ghost Grass. And Ghost Grass is described a lot like the Others and it will take over the world. Just like the 13 were described like the Others. Pale as milk with water in there veins.

It's not really like a formula, it's more like well he generally uses 13 in reference to the watch and Others. Oh he is using 13 in Qarth, I wonder if that is a clue? Boy the house of dust sure reminds me a lot of the Others. That is really about all I do. Boy Dany sure has a lot of 3 in her life, what's that about? That is really about it.

The faith of the 7 is easy, because you have most of that story, he gave you Hugor hill, the 7 gods, the 7 pointed star. Why 7 Gods? It may not matter, but the 7 is about those 7 gods, we know that, he gave us that. Why all the threes with Dany? Nobody knows, but he sure the heck does it and he does it a lot. Is it just about the 3 heads of the Dragon? It does not seem that way but I am sure that will get addressed. But you can pick up on some little things. Dany's hair, Dany's husbands, that kind of thing. I promise you Dany will have a not only a third husband, but she will lose her hair one more time. Why is the losing of the hair significant, well she has lost it twice right? Burnt off. Well every time Dany loses her hair and this is sort of what I talk about with patterns, the white ravens are seen in the next chapter.The seasons change. Last chapter of Thrones we see she has lost her hair, Prologue of Kings we see the White raven, her last chapter in Dance, we see she loses her hair. In the epilogue what do we see? The White raven, very next chapter. And this happens to be perfect timing for Jon getting stabbed and Martin following Campbell's formula. The hero dies in winter, it's winter, he officially made it winter right in time for Jon to be stabbed, in fact it's perfect timing for the Formula, it should happen at the change of the season. Jon's real rebirth will happen in Spring. Seems strange because he will probably be around for the war for the Dawn and all that. Does Martin have an out for that? Yes he does, he is sitting on Jon's true identity the real Jon will be revealed in Spring. That will be like the climax the end of the Crazy. Usually the hero is not gone after his death, you get a lot of metaphors like he is lost in the under world of darkness and trying to escape, and stuff like that. Or he is off trying to discover who he really is, or he goes back to training. Basically he exists on the periphery.

The dying will change Jon, he said that, he said with Beric and Cat he wanted to get across how dying changed you in his world. Maybe Jon takes the name Jon Stark in the next book, but that is not really who he is. Dany also does the rebirth thing really well, she has the whole phoenix thing going on.

Umm another example is Sun and Moon, or R+L=J or Maiden +  Lion = Child. Symbolic representation of the unity of opposition. Sun and moon, night and day, ice and fire, north and south. Unity of opposition always equals something major and significant in the series. Dragons, that is a big one, Azor and Nissa can kind of get the Drogo/Dany idea with, he got a sword, she got dragons, Rhaegar and Lyanna ice and fire got Jon, Maiden and or Night and Day got a child symbolic of water.  So you take that repetitive idea he expresses and  you might say boy Dany sure is fire and the Night King sure is ice, and she has this marriage theme and mother theme, and he has this Bride theme.

I mean how do we know the Night's King is not Azor and the Last hero? Why? Because gosh that would be a lot and nobody could ever do all that and...? How many Names does Azor have? Like a dozen? Could he have gone from Essos to Westeros like Dany is doing? Could he have had more than one bride even though he loved Nissa who he killed like Dany killed Drogo, like he took her soul like Dany took Drogo's and it went into a flaming sword in both cases. How many names does Dany have? A lot. She is a 16 year old who went from a homeless, penniless, orphaned, exile, to the most powerful woman in the world. By the time she is 18 most of the slave and free cities of Essos will have bent the knee and she will be in Westeros. He is giving you a modern day version of Azor Ahai, she is fighting slavers the Others are no different. Thralls or Slaves it's the same core principle, it is just a metaphor. Then you have Jon standing between them, that is probably the love triangle, Bram Stockers Night King, after the women he thinks will replace his Nissa or Night Queen, the only one worthy of his Greatness. After all that is what they wanted in the Undying isn't it? It was not just about killing her, they wanted her to join them for eternity, she just needed to give up her life and her soul. Sound familiar and Jon? Jon stands between them just like in his dream. Which winter King will she pick, because really, that is sort of his title these days if the Will holds true, Mr. Blue rose, the Starks, the kings of Winter. Or maybe that is how the world is fixed Dany and the Night King the maiden returns to the lion. though that did not fix it last time. We shall see. 

Anyway I am kind of exhausted with talking about Prophecy and the what's who's and why's of it. Same for why I use really simple repetition and symbolism as part oh how I interpret the books. This is really not the place for it either, and this all started  with me answering a simple question on if I thought Martin would answer some of the questions we have in the context of the books. I had no plans for discussing this, the closest thing I use to a formula is the unity of opposition = something important and occurs in a 3 dynamic like mother, father and child.

There is no big formula, it's just boy he repeats that a lot then I see if he regularly uses it in any way or with any person or thing. Dany and 3's no big secret. Lord Commanders, Night's Watch and Others all of whom happen to be interconnected. Unity of opposition, Light + Night = Light Brite or some such thing. I use perspective because the author told me in canon to use perspective multiple times. If looking at it from this side is wrong I tend to just flip it. Euron and Bloodraven, young and old but they sure as hell have some similar traits, one blue eye, one red, they are both Crows, red tree sap, blue tree sap, visions, speeches about flying. Bloodraven was LC for 13 years, Euron rules 31 Iron islands, ok they are Juxtaposed. Not really that difficult. It may also give you some hints on what Bloodraven is really up too, but that is more speculation and plot then talking symbolism and repetition like losing your hair 3 times and getting a white Raven every time it happens. Consider flipping perspective or symbolism if the author gives you examples, the hallway of the Undying left door right door, or Mirri east and west, does a slaver husband become one that represents free people, does red sand become blue ice?

So that's it no more examples, it's easy to put together, it is somewhat obvious, and I am burnt out on the subject. R+L=J is the topic not Creighton's podium of prognostication via repetitive symbolism.

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Yeah but you will note that this is a sort of alternative future, had Rhaego lived, not a completely unrelated BS. Kinda more like Galadriel's mirror, showing the past, the present, and future possibilities, but the viewer is warned that it would be dangerous to use the mirror as a guide for their action. 

Yes that is a good example but those visions all have something in common. They appear is a series and are separated by some phrase. The first series is of Viserys, Rhaego, and Rhaegar. These are the kings that never were.

What ties this series of rulers together?

Mother of Dragon Daughter of death. They are dead and never came to be.

Next series is of what most readers suspect are Stannis and Aegon, a Great Stone beast and Shadow fire. These are the kings that are lies. The Great Stone beast is assumed by some to be Jon Con, but that is far from a given and rather redundant given the mummers dragon.

What tied these visions together? Mother of Dragon slayer of lies, these Kings are lies. I say Kings because the first 5 people are all either people who were suppose to rule, should of ruled or claim they are rulers. Call them rulers if you want.

The last series of 3, my guess is this is also about Kings or some sort.

The first vision is her wedding night, Drogo was not a King but Khal it's really just a perspective thing, he was a ruler.

The second I do not know. It will have something to do with marriage to her and a ruler.

The final is a blue rose. Given what is suspected of Jon we once again have that ruler king theme.

What ties this series of visions together?

Mother of Dragon bride of fire. Rulers who are husbands or perhaps perspective husbands, men who wanted her. It's just a ball park theme on my guess. You can point to 6 out of 9 visions having to do with Kings or rulers, and the blue rose is easy enough, which makes it 7 visions, so I suspect the other 2 visions are a ruler of lies and a ruler how who will wed or attempt to wed Dany.

The Kings that would never be.

The Kings that are lies.

The Kings she could or will marry.

It's not a 100% but I feel like that is actually in the ballpark.

It goes along with the idea similar to the 3 fires prophecy where there are 3 sets of three all with an individual theme. It's just the heavy allusion to kings and rulers that seems to connect the whole thing. Nothing there appears to be a lie and the clues are so subtle that it's not like the author is being that obvious as I am the only person I know to ever mention the prophecy in this way. I mean there are lies but it's actually saying hey these dudes are lies. Which they are Stannis is not Azor, Aegon is not Aegon, I don't know what that last thing is. But I would be willing to guess it has something connecting it to Jon.

There are also some other themes involving the images. First image and each set may actually be second sons. Second image in each set may be associated with Murdered children. Third image in each set may relate to dragons. Not sure though.

If I had to hazard a guess on the guy on the boat I would say it is a character we have never met. Seems odd, but this character has been mentioned and we were suppose to meet him. Martin wrote Kings more than a decade before Dance, and Dance was suppose to be book 4 before it was split. Some say that character is a Greyjoy and others feel it is someone with Greyscale. I say it was suppose to be the Grey Gracre. Martin planned on introducing him in Dance, he even wrote a chapter for him with Tyrion. But he had to pull the chapter and cut the story. He may combine the story with another character or it ma6y be gone, given this is just visions, it's not like he has to keep it. But I am actually pretty certain it is the Shrouded Lord, the Prince of Sorrow or at least it was originally meant to be when he created it.

 

 

 

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To get to the king, Ned had to go through 3 Kingsguards.

Ned reached Robert lying in his "bed of blood"

Ned reached Jon in his mother's "bed of blood"

**This is the only correlation that would give the possibility of doubt that Lyanna died in a (fever) bed of blood from childbirth, however, it correlates Jon as "king" nevertheless... thus a trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

 

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