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Lord Wraith

R+L=J v.157

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Yes that is a good example but those visions all have something in common. They appear is a series and are separated by some phrase. The first series is of Viserys, Rhaego, and Rhaegar. These are the kings that never were.

What ties this series of rulers together?

Mother of Dragon Daughter of death. They are dead and never came to be.

Next series is of what most readers suspect are Stannis and Aegon, a Great Stone beast and Shadow fire. These are the kings that are lies. The Great Stone beast is assumed by some to be Jon Con, but that is far from a given and rather redundant given the mummers dragon.

What tied these visions together? Mother of Dragon slayer of lies, these Kings are lies. I say Kings because the first 5 people are all either people who were suppose to rule, should of ruled or claim they are rulers. Call them rulers if you want.

The last series of 3, my guess is this is also about Kings or some sort.

The first vision is her wedding night, Drogo was not a King but Khal it's really just a perspective thing, he was a ruler.

The second I do not know. It will have something to do with marriage to her and a ruler.

The final is a blue rose. Given what is suspected of Jon we once again have that ruler king theme.

What ties this series of visions together?

Mother of Dragon bride of fire. Rulers who are husbands or perhaps perspective husbands, men who wanted her. It's just a ball park theme on my guess. You can point to 6 out of 9 visions having to do with Kings or rulers, and the blue rose is easy enough, which makes it 7 visions, so I suspect the other 2 visions are a ruler of lies and a ruler how who will wed or attempt to wed Dany.

The Kings that would never be.

The Kings that are lies.

The Kings she could or will marry.

It's not a 100% but I feel like that is actually in the ballpark.

It goes along with the idea similar to the 3 fires prophecy where there are 3 sets of three all with an individual theme. It's just the heavy allusion to kings and rulers that seems to connect the whole thing. Nothing there appears to be a lie and the clues are so subtle that it's not like the author is being that obvious as I am the only person I know to ever mention the prophecy in this way. I mean there are lies but it's actually saying hey these dudes are lies. Which they are Stannis is not Azor, Aegon is not Aegon, I don't know what that last thing is. But I would be willing to guess it has something connecting it to Jon.

There are also some other themes involving the images. First image and each set may actually be second sons. Second image in each set may be associated with Murdered children. Third image in each set may relate to dragons. Not sure though.

If I had to hazard a guess on the guy on the boat I would say it is a character we have never met. Seems odd, but this character has been mentioned and we were suppose to meet him. Martin wrote Kings more than a decade before Dance, and Dance was suppose to be book 4 before it was split. Some say that character is a Greyjoy and others feel it someone with Greyscale. I say it was suppose to be the Grey King. Martin planned on introducing him in Dance, he even wrote a chapter for him with Tyrion. But he had to pull the chapter and cut the story. He may combine the story with another character or it ma6y be gone, given this is just visions, it's not like he has to keep it. But I am actually pretty certain it is the grey King or at least it was originally meant to be when he created it.

 

 

 

I see you've been employing the "tools of the trade," ;)

While I'm not sure that's fair, I love it, Great break down of clues, (but with Jon, you forget that Dany might have to compete with Arya).:D

Happy holidays, and stay "healthy," as it's rainy days for blue nights.:ph34r:

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While I'm not sure that's fair, I love it, Great break down of clues, (but with Jon, you forget that Dany might have to compete with Arya).:D

Oh my!

True to duty vs love indeed... like his Father. ^_^

 

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To get to the king, Ned had to go through 3 Kingsguards.

Ned reached Robert lying in his "bed of blood"

Ned reached Jon in his mother's "bed of blood"

**This is the only correlation that would give the possibility of doubt that Lyanna died in a (fever) bed of blood from childbirth, however, it correlates Jon as "king" nevertheless... thus a trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

 

how in gods name does that correlate Jon as a King?

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I see you've been employing the "tools of the trade," ;)

While I'm not sure that's fair, I love it, Great break down of clues, (but with Jon, you forget that Dany might have to compete with Arya).:D

Happy holidays, and stay "healthy," as it's rainy days for blue nights.:ph34r:

I screwed up one of the names, it hit a little while ago I mixed up the Grey King and the Grey Grace the Prince of the Sorrows, The Shrouded lord.

If by tools of the trade you mean my Little Orphan Annie secret society decoder pin, then yes, yes I did do that. The prophetic visions are either about Kings or Drinking your Ovaltine, I forgot which so flipped a coin. Or perhaps this talk of patterns and the mention of past present and future gave me the idea to finding a theme among them. It was repeated Rhaego never happened, then I realized none of them ever happened, none sat the throne. They all died first, then lies and then brides and they all had those great big shinny king types in each series. 6 images were locks for it and the Blue rose is easy enough. When you get 7 out of 9 images in series all an interconnecting theme chances are the other two are connected as well. Weather it is the Grey Grace or Euron it works well enough, even Theon works. The Stone Dragon breathing blackfire thing does not work well with JonCon, but who is to say Vary's does not catch the affliction. A Blackfyre with Grescale. Which fits well with lies and royalty. it's not hard to slip those characters in. In fact it is easy. 

Dany may have to compete with Arya? Jon will probably have to compete with the Night's King, I don't know if my girl is going to make it. I have this whole Bram Stokers theme running with Dany and the Night's King. It holds true to the other existing patterns.  Think about it like this.

Dany has a lot of similarities to Azor. She had to kill her spouse and it is one of three deaths that really matter to her. It is believed the souls of Viserys, Drogo and Rhaego went into the eggs. Kind of how Nissa went into Light Bringer and in Turn the Night's King lost his soul to the Night's Queen. The Undying who are by and large an allusion to the Others tried to take Dany's soul. The Fire the Life, they wanted her to live with them forever. The Others are really just a copy of the Bloodmasters of Fevre Dream and that was just a metaphor for the slave trade. It's a different setting and he gave them an ice theme, and it's not about sucking the blood, it's about taking the water, which they do and that is why dust is left in the veins, that is the iron and salt, and they seem not to like either. Now if you notice her first two husbands are slavers.

My only hope for Dany is the house of the Undying and a theme Martin has been playing with. Basically having Dany switch, not right but left, not forward but back. I think this is how Martin will add depth to the big bad, not a random monster, as Dany will seek a third husband, the Night's king will seek a 3rd bride. I say third, because I think he was Azor. Azor like Dany had a lot of names and also came from Essos. But I think it does add some depth, yes he is a monster but he may be able to love, or maybe it's his giant ego and only some magical bride is worthy of his Robert/Euron like Epicness. Something like that at least, it adds something to him. Watching Dany that kind of explains his past as well. Azor and Nissa are Dany and Drogo, just swap genders and maybe symbolism. Then as the LC of the Watch he marries his enemy The Night's Queen, Dany marries a slaver during her war on slavery. But we have a reason for that, perhaps some sort of pact between the watch and the Others as well. That is all I got. Well I do have one other thing, and it is still Night's King Jon Snow.

It's a fun fact and not really sure if it is spoiler related, the reason Dany wears so much blue on the show the first 4 season, is because her husbands color is blue. It's a costume designer fact. Besides how many love interests does Arya need, she got Gendry and Ned already, she can't have all of them. She could at least give one to Sansa Harry seems like a turd.

Marry Holiday Christmas New years.

 

Jon-Snow-with-christmas-hat-jon-snow-274

 

 

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To get to the king, Ned had to go through 3 Kingsguards.

Oh I like that imagery a lot. The three kingsguards:

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong.

AGoT 47 Eddard XIII

Ned reached Robert lying in his "bed of blood"

Ned reached Jon in his mother's "bed of blood"

Only Robert's bed is not called a "bed of blood". Blood in connection with the bed isn't even mentioned.
As has been pointed out by others numerous times before, that phrase and imagery in ASoIaF has been firmly connected to childbirth and the childbed. So unfortunately...

**This is the only correlation that would give the possibility of doubt that Lyanna died in a (fever) bed of blood from childbirth, however, it correlates Jon as "king" nevertheless... thus a trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

...no, you have left the text here and jumped too far with not enough to go on with.

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...no, you have left the text here and jumped too far with not enough to go on with.

^^^this is correct

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[Only Robert's bed is not called a "bed of blood". Blood in connection with the bed isn't even mentioned.

As has been pointed out by others numerous times before, that phrase and imagery in ASoIaF has been firmly connected to childbirth and the childbed. So unfortunately...

You know what this does remind me off, slightly?

“My brother was always strong,” Lord Renly said. “Not wise, perhaps, but strong.” In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert’s ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. “He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar.” His voice was full of wonder.

“Robert was never a man to leave the battleground so long as a foe remained standing,” Ned told him.

Combined with

"The gods made men to fight, and women to bear children,” said Randyll Tarly. “A woman’s war is in the birthing bed.”

Ned makes a comparison between Robert's fight with the boar and a battle (of war).. a man's war, of sorts (as per Westeros' view), what killed Robert, whereas Lyanna died of fighting a 'woman's war'

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Oh I like that imagery a lot. The three kingsguards:

AGoT 47 Eddard XIII

Only Robert's bed is not called a "bed of blood". Blood in connection with the bed isn't even mentioned.
As has been pointed out by others numerous times before, that phrase and imagery in ASoIaF has been firmly connected to childbirth and the childbed. So unfortunately...

...no, you have left the text here and jumped too far with not enough to go on with.

That is Ned 13 right? It opens with Ned in the crypts being watched with eyes of Ice. "Promise me Ned" he is at the 3 crypts, 3 are pointed out. He hears her voice, "Promise Me Ned." So that is how this opens. We got Blue roses as well. Ned wakes up. Earlier imagery has the Blue roses turning black, much like a certain character we know, you take the black. So moving forward.

Roberts story in Thrones is by and large a parallel, like you have the two Targaryen children of the past who were murdered and him and Ned fought over. And you have Robert wanting to kill 2 Targaryen children who he and Ned fight over.

Robert is in a bed, his bandages Black with blood, the wound smelled, that is infection no question. Ned is not sure if his eyes are clouded by pain or grief.  "Why do you have to be so headstrong?" Was Lyanna ever considered head strong? Dany is brought up,don't kill Targaryen children. Ned was right.

He lies to Robert "The lies we tell for love." Robert took Neds hand

"Promise me Ned"

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed."

Spare the Targaryen child, spare Dany.

Clear parallel, the road less traveled inverse symbolism, the genders are reversed, Joff is a bastard believed to be a Prince, Jon is a prince believed to be a bastard. Promise me the 3 KG the opening shot, and a lie about a child.

Imagery of the female dire wolf and male elk is complete, one of the opening shots of the series and the main theme of the first book.

Sun and Moon is always right. Parallel seems to hold perfectly right down to the bastards, lies and promises. Bed of blood is a Bed with a bloody guy in it. He just flips a few things around to make it work for a guy and still maintain the parallel. Also he did it in a 13 chapter so that's awesome.

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ear parallel, the road less traveled inverse symbolism, the genders are reversed, Joff is a bastard believed to be a Prince, Jon is a prince believed to be a bastard. Promise me the 3 KG the opening shot, and a lie about a child.

Yup!

I love how GRRM portray that scene.

And this might be even a stretch... but what are the chances that Lyanna gave Ned to open Rhaegar's will (with proof of their marriage) and seal with the crown prince's wax? Practically conveying that the baby is his and Lyanna's trueborn son, the reason that there were 3 Kingsguards (who read the same will, that caused them to) staying at and guarding, and had to fight through at the tower instead of fleeing to Dragonstone, that Ned now realized, they were guarding the true heir to the throne.

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Yup!

I love how GRRM portray that scene.

And this might be even a stretch... but what are the chances that Lyanna gave Ned to open Rhaegar's will (with proof of their marriage) and seal with the crown prince's wax? Practically conveying that the baby is his and Lyanna's trueborn son, the reason that there were 3 Kingsguards (who read the same will, that caused them to) staying at and guarding, and had to fight through at the tower instead of fleeing to Dragonstone, that Ned now realized, they were guarding the true heir to the throne.

Well there is no question it is a parallel it's not even mildly subtle. So yeah a Will is very possible. It could not name Jon directly only a child by him and Lyanna, not even a boy or a girl. Ned named Jon and Rhaegar was long gone and dead before Jon was born. The KG could of witnessed it but don't need too as nobody witnessed Roberts will which did not matter much. Or there may have been one witness Maester what's his face, I don't recall if he stayed after Robert kicked everyone out and tossed the Milk of the poppy.

I have wondered if Howland had Rhaegar's Will. But we have this case of a missing Will with Robb already, so do we get these multiple Will's popping up all naming Jon king. Seems a little over the top. It's like winning the lottery twice. It becomes a little heavy handed. Jon you are not going to believe this but it is yet another will naming you and even bigger king and it was wrapped in Dawn. Like if Martin had more time but two Will's in two books for kingship? Rhaegar and Robbs will would both help Jon on a personal level but people follow where they believe the power resides. You also have to remember that one Will got destroyed you saw how Cersei treated that Will. Though what if the Will was at Starfall? I know a lot of people like the crypt theory, but it seems a little to creepy for me. Please leave your mothers grave alone. It also works better coming from an outside source as they can lend legitimacy to it. Though then you have the question of how much conflict does Martin want to create with this?

The parallels were very tight, and it's not my book so I can't say if Martin will change his mind about anything, but I just don't know and it would take a lot of connecting the dots. Mostly because the one will we are talking about got destroyed and there is another Will for Jon Kingship floating around out there. One guy getting two Wills for Kingship this close to the end game requires a suspension of disbelief in a series with dragons, and Ice Vampires.

A good example of what to look for when following Martins bread crumbs. Read it if you want or not, but it is a strong example of how Martin works with clues.

Example. Urrathon the Night Walker. Urrathon the Night Walker lived on Warlocks Way or whatever they called Warlock Street in Qarth, it was Warlock something. The glass candles were burning in his house.

Urrathon is an ancient name of a Ironborn King known as Urrathon the Goodbrother/Badbrother. His sigil is a large black horn with gold bands, much like Dragonbinder.

Euron shows up with the Warlocks and a horn much like this and becomes King of the Ironborn much the way Urrathon did at a Kingsmoot.

Rodrik Harlaw is at Ten Towers when he is given a book Marwyn's book of lost books in which Marwyn claims to have found 3 pages of the legendary lost book Signs and Portents, which is about the Doom. This is the Marwyn who has a glass candle that Pate told us about right before a FM killed him, the same FM believed to have killed Euron's brother right before Euron returned.

Later Vic sees Rodrik speaking to a guy named Goodbrother. Later in Dance Asha will recall how Rodrik told her to read a book called Haerge's History of the Ironborn, which recalls the only time a Kingsmoot was over turned. Well we already know the only time that happened is when the Ironborn turned on Goodbrother because not all the claiments had been at the KM and then voted the son of the old king in and killed Goodbrother.

So you get a parallel between Euron, Nightwalker and Goodbrother. It probably points to what he wants at Oldtown, the Glass Candles and those 3 pages, how he is going to get it using a FM who just obtained a key, and that he probably dies when the Old Kings son returns. Euron is also Juxtaposed to Bloodraven but that is a different parallel about different things. Or maybe it isn't but no need for it here.

It's a nice little trail of bread crumbs, if there is a will or something like it there are probably clues and you know where to start.

 

 

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Yes you hit it on the spot, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is a possibility that Howland may have Robb's will in his hands now and know of another's will, or evidence that Jon is of the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union.

This is where I think GRRM will do a similar act with Jon.

I think Jon will reject his true parentage at first.  He will be confused, then angry, thus leading to him running away from his "duty", just as he ran away from the Night's Watch.  But guess what? "Duty" calls him back. 

I'm of the opinion that Jon will realize that for the realm to survive he is cursed to follow through with his duty, to unite the realm under one king, himself.

Just as Sam and the other brothers in black, convinced him to return to the NW and played a part in influencing the election for Jon to be LC, Sam and his new brothers in chains, the maesters, who Sam have successfully convinced (via reason, trickery or maybe half-truths and deception, or other means) to support Jon, thus leading their respective lords, who they serve, to elect Jon as the king in the Great Council.

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Yes you hit it on the spot, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is a possibility that Howland may have Robb's will in his hands now and know of another's will, or evidence that Jon is of the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union.

This is where I think GRRM will do a similar act with Jon.

I think Jon will reject his true parentage at first.  He will be confused, then angry, thus leading to him running away from his "duty", just as he ran away from the Night's Watch.  But guess what? "Duty" calls him back. 

I'm of the opinion that Jon will realize that for the realm to survive he is cursed to follow through with his duty, to unite the realm under one king, himself.

Just as Sam and the other brothers in black, convinced him to return to the NW and played a part in influencing the election for Jon to be LC, Sam and his new brothers in chains, the maesters, who Sam have successfully convinced (via reason, trickery or maybe half-truths and deception, or other means) to support Jon, thus leading their respective lords, who they serve, to elect Jon as the king in the Great Council.

I thought his duty is more than that. 

Should not he marry dany and unite essos and westeros all together and become the king of the planet and liberator of slaves of the whole world? 

He will likely become that emperor who is the only son of night lion god and light maiden goddess (rhaegar and lyanna) and have 100 wives carry his palanquin and rule for 10000 years. Until the next long night comes. 

 

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I literally laughed when I see you guys correlate Robert in blood bed and lyanna in blood bed together. 

So jon is the boar in this case (which made Robert into bloody bed)? 

Oh, hold on, this makes sense. Robert had a big belly. Lyanna surely had a big belly too. 

Both had a big belly and stayed in a bloody bed. 

Did rhaegar's ghost warg into that boar to avenge Robert? 

This will be perfect! Both were killed by action of rhaegar. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I literally laughed when I see you guys correlate Robert in blood bed and lyanna in blood bed together. 

So jon is the boar in this case (which made Robert into bloody bed)? 

Oh, hold on, this makes sense. Robert had a big belly. Lyanna surely had a big belly too. 

Both had a big belly and stayed in a bloody bed. 

Did rhaegar's ghost warg into that boar to avenge Robert? 

This will be perfect! Both were killed by action of rhaegar. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

don't forget Rhaegar's hypothetical will.. that will confirm all of their hopes and dreams, forcing the Rhaegar haterz to accept that he saved Westeros from the Ice zombies and that his elopement with Lyanna was a beautiful, lovely thing.

princes and bastards, bastards and princes, 13, 3, 13.

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Yes you hit it on the spot, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is a possibility that Howland may have Robb's will in his hands now and know of another's will, or evidence that Jon is of the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union.

This is where I think GRRM will do a similar act with Jon.

I think Jon will reject his true parentage at first.  He will be confused, then angry, thus leading to him running away from his "duty", just as he ran away from the Night's Watch.  But guess what? "Duty" calls him back. 

I'm of the opinion that Jon will realize that for the realm to survive he is cursed to follow through with his duty, to unite the realm under one king, himself.

Just as Sam and the other brothers in black, convinced him to return to the NW and played a part in influencing the election for Jon to be LC, Sam and his new brothers in chains, the maesters, who Sam have successfully convinced (via reason, trickery or maybe half-truths and deception, or other means) to support Jon, thus leading their respective lords, who they serve, to elect Jon as the king in the Great Council.

Isn't it better to just have him die and give his life for the greater good? Why does JON have to be king? Can we not have a Targaryen or Stark or even Baratheon on the throne please. The last thing the realm needs is Jon to become old and bitter like Robert.

And Rhaegar's will? What?! How would Rhaegar know his name is Jon? Didn't Ned name him? Howland can't just say "It says it here people "My son born from Lyanna". How would Rhaegar know he had a son?! "My child born from Lyanna". How can people expect Jon to be his son because Howland said so? Jon looks like a Stark and just like Ned as well. People lie all the time and I have a inkling that Howland is no saint.  Riots would happen!! Let me not even get on the fact that to everyone Jon will be a bastard. And if Rheager marries and named Lyanna his wife in his will. I wonder if people are going to be ok with it or just curse his name while not acknowledging it, the 7 don't believe in polygamy, Rheager is dead so he can't defend himself and Lyanna.  

I understand you want Jon on the throne, but you have to think about the people of the time as well not just Jon. People is going to scream he is no Targaryen, and others would scream "Targaryen house was killed off it's the Baratheons that own the crown". Now all that can change when Dany arrives and she some how figures out Jon is a Targaryen (key word: somehow), but there will still be no peace. "Fire and Blood" and there is going to be a lot of fire if Dany wants to take over.

I love Sam and all but man! If the maesters become somewhat blind to the Sams trickery I might just laugh. 

Now if you said Jon would do his "Duty", by plunging the realm into war by gaining allies and conquering the throne like Aegon did then I might just shut up and take my ass to the corner. 

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And Rhaegar's will? What?! How would Rhaegar know his name is Jon? Didn't Ned name him? Howland can't just say "It says it here people "My son born from Lyanna". How would Rhaegar know he had a son?! "My child born from Lyanna".

Some Targaryens used to dream these things, and their dreams used to come true, have you read some Dunk&Egg?

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Some Targaryens used to dream these things, and their dreams used to come true, have you read some Dunk&Egg?

you're extrapolating on top of extrapolation. This is indicative of absolutely nothing.

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Some Targaryens used to dream these things, and their dreams used to come true, have you read some Dunk&Egg?

honestly their dream is quite vague. Except the one about the doom, which still happened after like 10 years. So no certain date. 

I do not think rhaegar dreamed he had a son and himself would die so that he have no chance to see and name him and then write such uncertain will. 

He thought he could win and depose his daddy. 

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I have wondered if Howland had Rhaegar's Will. But we have this case of a missing Will with Robb already, so do we get these multiple Will's popping up all naming Jon king. Seems a little over the top. It's like winning the lottery twice. It becomes a little heavy handed. Jon you are not going to believe this but it is yet another will naming you and even bigger king and it was wrapped in Dawn. Like if Martin had more time but two Will's in two books for kingship? Rhaegar and Robbs will would both help Jon on a personal level but people follow where they believe the power resides. You also have to remember that one Will got destroyed you saw how Cersei treated that Will. Though what if the Will was at Starfall? I know a lot of people like the crypt theory, but it seems a little to creepy for me. Please leave your mothers grave alone. It also works better coming from an outside source as they can lend legitimacy to it. Though then you have the question of how much conflict does Martin want to create with this?

Or you know there could be a 3rd will before we're finished. Stannis seems to have a lot of interest in Jon. Would follow your pattern of 3 in relation to Kings/Rulers. Though Stannis' will would have less impact in my opinion. I'm not sure which other character might leave him a will to fit the theme of 3's.

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Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. - AGoT, Eddard I

I've mentioned before how I think the phrase "blood and roses" gets us pretty damn close to R+L=J all by itself. Since the blood is essentially shorthand for bed of blood, which indicates childbirth, and the roses should remind us of Rhaegar. In other words, Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's child. But there's another angle here, too.

What color are the aforementioned "blood and roses"? Red and blue, right? Wrong. "[T]he rose petals spilled from her palm, dead and black." So the "blood and roses" are actually red and black; Targaryen colors.

Maybe that's a coincidence. Maybe.

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