R+L=J v.157

[Ygrain]

What color are the aforementioned "blood and roses"? Red and blue, right? Wrong. "[T]he rose petals spilled from her palm, dead and black." So the "blood and roses" are actually red and black; Targaryen colors.

Maybe that's a coincidence. Maybe.

And the roses in the dream are blue, so we get both - Targ colours, as well as ice and fire :-)

[Ser Creighton]

I've mentioned before how I think the phrase "blood and roses" gets us pretty damn close to R+L=J all by itself. Since the blood is essentially shorthand for bed of blood, which indicates childbirth, and the roses should remind us of Rhaegar. In other words, Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's child. But there's another angle here, too.

What color are the aforementioned "blood and roses"? Red and blue, right? Wrong. "[T]he rose petals spilled from her palm, dead and black." So the "blood and roses" are actually red and black; Targaryen colors.

Maybe that's a coincidence. Maybe.

Wait Targaryen colors are red and black? Can't be. Though you could also say the blue rose turning black is Jon taking the black and later we get Jon in his typical black with a red flaming sword, it's not like Martin said the sword was symbolic of three dragons. Ok yes in the previous Dany chapter he said just that, which would essentially make Jon the symbolic representation of House Targaryen. That is just a red herring though, Jon's parents are a cabbage and a fish... Wait is it it fisherman's daughter? I don't know, I heard there is a herring involved so it has something to do with fish, and the herring was apparently red and the cabbage is purple which is like blue, so there that is what must be causing the confusion. 3 giant flaming herrings and a purplish blue cabbage that turned black because it went bad and really you don't want to eat bad cabbage.

I think I will make a theory about it C(X-Y)=WTF. Yeah the C is for Creighton and not Cabbage because I totally want credit when this is revealed in Martins 9th book, the Waters of Monsoon season, I am using Indian seasons, there will totally be 10 books. I figure if I am going to create an extra theory that is totally hollow and unsupported I might as well put them in an imaginary book that will never happen. That way I can just say well it is going to happen in book 9 so we just have to wait till that comes out in like 20 years and then you will all see that R+L=??? (??? because his real name is Simba) is just a red herring, which was your first clue that it was about a cabbage and a fish. Yeah Simba the black flaming Cabbage fish that was once purplish blue. Yeah, like a boss. 

[J. Stargaryen]

And the roses in the dream are blue, so we get both - Targ colours, as well as ice and fire :-)

Right. Blue rose petals -- Rhaegar + Lyanna -- are seen by Ned in the dream which is partially about Lyanna in her bed of blood -- childbirth. So once again, Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's child.

Wait Targaryen colors are red and black? Can't be. Though you could also say the blue rose turning black is Jon taking the black...

<snip>

That too. I've long had that suspicion. Further, that the "dead and black" rose petals falling from Lyanna's hands could have been foreshadowing Jon's apparent, and temporary, death while he was LC of the NW, aka, the black brothers. At the end of Jon's story in Dance, he could probably be accurately described as dead and black.

[Ser Creighton]

Right. Blue rose petals -- Rhaegar + Lyanna -- are seen by Ned in the dream which is partially about Lyanna in her bed of blood -- childbirth. So once again, Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's child.

That too. I've long had that suspicion. Further, that the "dead and black" rose petals falling from Lyanna's hands could have been foreshadowing Jon's apparent, and temporary, death while he was LC of the NW, aka, the black brothers. At the end of Jon's story in Dance, he could probably be accurately described as dead and black.

Well yeah you got death, and yes I think foreshadowing, and symbolism and theme. But is it all for Jon? Look at the progression through the different dreams and moments, watch the symbolism, associated with Jon and R+L=J? Yes, but specifically Jon, I am not so sure. Lets not overlook Robert, Robert is almost always part of these dreams and moments. What is Martin doing, I have talked about the Robert and Stannis symbolism before, and this is where death and Robert are strongest, but why? I'll show you what I think. I don't want to do all the Robert connections it would take to long so just the key ones.

So chapter 4 Robert shows up, and we have to remember how actually central Robert is to all of this. He is one of the original 3 that got this started. Show Chapter 4 Robert shows up and it is right down to the Crypts to kick off this mystery. We have talked about this before but it's my opinion that Robert and Stannis are both symbolic of the Night's King, Stannis fills in after we lose Robert. There is a great deal of Foreshadowing when we see Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert in play, in a scene. We talk about parallels and a cyclical story, and history repeating and stuff like that. No less true with these 3. The love triangle. It's a very tragic story I don't think any of them meant for this to happen and they all basically seemed to suffer and die. But is telling, it's relating a story to you that is similar to the more distant past, though not exactly a one to one and not as magical.

So down in the crypts. "Six and half feet tall, he towered over lesser men and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his house, he became a veritable giant.

"Take me down to the crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.

"He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Now a lot of people reference that to Jon, and that's fine but Jon would not be the only king in the North. There is a much older King central to the story as well, and Robert fills in well for him in this story. Don't forget who we first me and where the chain of events begins.

"More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!' That is a Jon reference, but the cold from the previous line may be referencing something else, that is heavily associated with the cold, and that cold breath symbolism plays again in relation to the Others later in the book. You know those lines

You can say Jon is a King of the North or a King in the North, but that cold, that breath, that fits another King way better than Jon, and in my opinion both characters are being touched on in this reflection of a past love triangle. They have some parallels, they have some connections, Starks, Lord Commanders, the Watch, but they are not the same.

"The Others take your mild snows,"

And he touches on the Others right after the Cold breath thing. A little reminder.

Right after that he touches on roses, golden, but that's ok, we have seen him use the Tyrells to touch on Jon and the show has done that too. But the roses are not about the cold.

"Iron Longswords had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits away." Sam will later give us some insight into vengeful spirits and iron, so will Ghost and Jon, at least I think they do.

"The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragon lords came."

"The Kings of the north"

Ned would rather these Ghost Kings not be roaming around.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

We know Ned looks at Robert through rose colored glasses here, but Martin places the Love triangle there and the idea of the bride.This Blue eyed Horned king believed the bride was to be his.

"Promise me" she had cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses." He gave her his word, they held hands,

"rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

"his great antlered helm" Martin mentions this again.

"Rhaegar lay dead in the stream" Not the last time this imagery will be used.

"The Others take my wife." Robert likes saying the Others a lot, and the Others take Cersei, well one can dream.

Ned then asks Robert about Jon. Oh the irony.

Now through the rest of thrones this bit of a story we have will progress and so does the symbolism and the colors. That is where it begins to get really interesting, with each progressive step Martin takes.

Now later on we will find out who Robert really hates, yes the Targaryens and Rhaegar most of all. So we have this blue eyed honed kind who hates the Dragons, and in the current time he wishes to Kill Deanerys and her child. He also fears the Dothraki coming. The Horse lords. That will be important later as well. The last line of that chapter is great.

"He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And Winter was coming."

If you think about Robert being a parallel of sorts for the Night's King and everything that just transpired in the first 4 chapters, it is a wow statement, and Martin will touch on this line in Neds famous dream. He will touch on it heavily.

Chapter 39. The Tower of Joy

First what kind of dream is this? It's fevre dream. Trust me read the book, it's about Vampires that are a metaphor for slavery. It's outstanding and he likes to mention it during certain dreams.

So the dream itself is juxtaposed, you can tell by the colors and by the speech between Ned and the KG especially how it ends.

"In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist."

His friends are faceless, immaterial, shadows, dark. The KG on the other hand are the exact opposite.

"the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." "And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now."

"And now it begins"

"No," Ned said with a sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow."

The solid and the immaterial. Opposing forces in conflict and kind of a nice little house of black and white imagery being touched on with the black and white and faceless. What is there place in this story, anyone know of a FM to ever come out of a Black Cell? Is something being hinted at?
 

What is important is we see this as opposing forces in conflict. They are very much at an inverse.

Remember those dead eyes I mentioned?

"Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

We all know about dead blue eyes in this series. And you have the blue and the red, ice and fire. What does this scene lead to? A moonlit room and Robert. More talk of Lyanna and Rhaegar and of Roberts loss and of course Daenerys and her baby.

And so comes the next part of the progression the Death of Robert and once again, this theme is going to repeat.

Chapter 45. Littlefinger shows up to speak to Ned dressed in Black and White a bit interesting because he is talking about Robert going after a giant boar on his hunting trip. Cersei speaks of Robert and their wedding night, Ned recalls pale Blue Roses.

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who is the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?"

Ch 47. "The Kings of winter watched him pass with eyes of ice"

Here we go again with Kings of Winter and Icy eyes and Robert.

"Promise me Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses and her eyes wept blood."

So promise me again setting up the Robert scene but also of special not the garland of flowers is not in her hand or on her lap but on her head and it is refereed to as a crown multiple times in the series. Theon will also see this. We get that blue and red again. But it's the weeping, and it's funny because I wonder if she is weeping for Robert. There is a huge difference between hate between the two and what actually transpired. Much of which was not Roberts fault, and he has been tragic and miserable ever since. Sure Robert got angry, but Robert did not start that war.

So he passes the 3 KG, and meets with Robert in his bed and he is bleeding.

"Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him."

This is an inverse of Lyanna and Robert as I mentioned in an earlier post when we were discussing it.

"The room smelled of smoke and blood and death."

We get the smell not the same as Lyanna's but we are still given it.

"His face was pale as milk."

"Why do you always have to be so headstrong."

"The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right ... that's why, the girl ... the gods sent the boar ... sent to punish me ..."

"Wrong, it was wrong, I ... only a girl ..."

Again we see Dany made part of the Robert scene, but I think it has it's place and I think Martin is showing us who Robert used to be in the end, before the bitterness, and war and vengeance. Not perfect by any means but not how we see him in the first book.

Robert regrets his rule, but Ned comforts him.

"Promise me Ned."

"I promise." Promise me Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed."

Spare Dany of course help my son be better than me.

"Shall I call them back?"

"Robert gave a weak nod. "As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?"

"Will I dream?"

"You will my lord."

"Good, he said smiling. "I will give you Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

Lets not forget it is a parallel to Lyanna's death.

Ch. 58

"He remembered the jest the king had shared with him in the crypts of Winterfell, as the Kings of Winter looked on with cold stone eyes."

"Darkness" "There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls."

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

"He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us Ned," Robert said."

"The year of the false spring."

"Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laural in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

More blood and roses follow.

"Promise me Ned his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."

"I believe you will be allowed to take the Black"

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him"

"I would sooner wed the black goat of Qohor"

 Martin transitions from Jon to the watch to the Black Goat, a horned god. It's an interesting transition, but old gods can have many names in this series this one happens to have horns. Is it about Jon? I don't think so as he presented us with another Horned god at the beginning of the chapter.

I left Jon out of a lot of this because you all have already been over everything Jon and I took a different perspective. I looked at Robert, and while R+L=J is a theory I believe in, it often leaves out Robert who is very much part of the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

You see as Stannis fills in for Azor and draws a parallel to him, so Robert draws a parallel to the Night's King but alludes to this Horned god on more than one occasion. I really don't see a difference between the two. Stannis and Azor, Robert and the Night's King, the horned lord. And of course the Night's king and Azor are a perfect inverse. Now if you know about the Horned Lord, much like the dragon it is a constellation. It also goes by the name the Stallion.

The Stallion is the symbol of the Dothraki, the Horse lords, and they constellation. I have written many times that the Dothraki are Juxtaposed to the Others, more notably the Wight's, the army of the Others. Much the way Martin used the imagery of the Ghost Grass and the Dothraki sea. Which is Dothraki mythology, they also hate the number 13 and are afraid to cross the poison water, while the Others are afraid to cross the poison frozen water. The wall does have salt in it after all.

This leads me to Dany and her Dothraki and the Night's King and his Wight's and in the middle, symbolically and literally in the middle is Jon the Blue rose. Similar to another Blue rose that was fought over. What I can't figure out is what the Night's King would want with Jon. Dany far more obvious. Given like Azor and the Night's King it involved a bride, a woman they loved. Weather it is a flaming sword or three Dragons Dany and Jon are similar. I guess Martin could interchange them.

So basically it's just a very similar setup, there is more on the line, more magic, more significant characters, more build up. The colors, the parallels, the symbolism, the structure, it all kind of points to that.

Ok that is all I have. Have a happy New Years everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alia of the knife]

Well yeah you got death, and yes I think foreshadowing, and symbolism and theme. But is it all for Jon? Look at the progression through the different dreams and moments, watch the symbolism, associated with Jon and R+L=J? Yes, but specifically Jon, I am not so sure. Lets not overlook Robert, Robert is almost always part of these dreams and moments. What is Martin doing, I have talked about the Robert and Stannis symbolism before, and this is where death and Robert are strongest, but why? I'll show you what I think. I don't want to do all the Robert connections it would take to long so just the key ones.

So chapter 4 Robert shows up, and we have to remember how actually central Robert is to all of this. He is one of the original 3 that got this started. Show Chapter 4 Robert shows up and it is right down to the Crypts to kick off this mystery. We have talked about this before but it's my opinion that Robert and Stannis are both symbolic of the Night's King, Stannis fills in after we lose Robert. There is a great deal of Foreshadowing when we see Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert in play, in a scene. We talk about parallels and a cyclical story, and history repeating and stuff like that. No less true with these 3. The love triangle. It's a very tragic story I don't think any of them meant for this to happen and they all basically seemed to suffer and die. But is telling, it's relating a story to you that is similar to the more distant past, though not exactly a one to one and not as magical.

So down in the crypts. "Six and half feet tall, he towered over lesser men and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his house, he became a veritable giant.

"Take me down to the crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.

"He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Now a lot of people reference that to Jon, and that's fine but Jon would not be the only king in the North. There is a much older King central to the story as well, and Robert fills in well for him in this story. Don't forget who we first me and where the chain of events begins.

"More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!' That is a Jon reference, but the cold from the previous line may be referencing something else, that is heavily associated with the cold, and that cold breath symbolism plays again in relation to the Others later in the book. You know those lines

You can say Jon is a King of the North or a King in the North, but that cold, that breath, that fits another King way better than Jon, and in my opinion both characters are being touched on in this reflection of a past love triangle. They have some parallels, they have some connections, Starks, Lord Commanders, the Watch, but they are not the same.

"The Others take your mild snows,"

And he touches on the Others right after the Cold breath thing. A little reminder.

Right after that he touches on roses, golden, but that's ok, we have seen him use the Tyrells to touch on Jon and the show has done that too. But the roses are not about the cold.

"Iron Longswords had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits away." Sam will later give us some insight into vengeful spirits and iron, so will Ghost and Jon, at least I think they do.

"The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragon lords came."

"The Kings of the north"

Ned would rather these Ghost Kings not be roaming around.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

We know Ned looks at Robert through rose colored glasses here, but Martin places the Love triangle there and the idea of the bride.This Blue eyed Horned king believed the bride was to be his.

"Promise me" she had cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses." He gave her his word, they held hands,

"rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

"his great antlered helm" Martin mentions this again.

"Rhaegar lay dead in the stream" Not the last time this imagery will be used.

"The Others take my wife." Robert likes saying the Others a lot, and the Others take Cersei, well one can dream.

Ned then asks Robert about Jon. Oh the irony.

Now through the rest of thrones this bit of a story we have will progress and so does the symbolism and the colors. That is where it begins to get really interesting, with each progressive step Martin takes.

Now later on we will find out who Robert really hates, yes the Targaryens and Rhaegar most of all. So we have this blue eyed honed kind who hates the Dragons, and in the current time he wishes to Kill Deanerys and her child. He also fears the Dothraki coming. The Horse lords. That will be important later as well. The last line of that chapter is great.

"He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And Winter was coming."

If you think about Robert being a parallel of sorts for the Night's King and everything that just transpired in the first 4 chapters, it is a wow statement, and Martin will touch on this line in Neds famous dream. He will touch on it heavily.

Chapter 39. The Tower of Joy

First what kind of dream is this? It's fevre dream. Trust me read the book, it's about Vampires that are a metaphor for slavery. It's outstanding and he likes to mention it during certain dreams.

So the dream itself is juxtaposed, you can tell by the colors and by the speech between Ned and the KG especially how it ends.

"In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist."

His friends are faceless, immaterial, shadows, dark. The KG on the other hand are the exact opposite.

"the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." "And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now."

"And now it begins"

"No," Ned said with a sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow."

The solid and the immaterial. Opposing forces in conflict and kind of a nice little house of black and white imagery being touched on with the black and white and faceless. What is there place in this story, anyone know of a FM to ever come out of a Black Cell? Is something being hinted at?
 

What is important is we see this as opposing forces in conflict. They are very much at an inverse.

Remember those dead eyes I mentioned?

"Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

We all know about dead blue eyes in this series. And you have the blue and the red, ice and fire. What does this scene lead to? A moonlit room and Robert. More talk of Lyanna and Rhaegar and of Roberts loss and of course Daenerys and her baby.

And so comes the next part of the progression the Death of Robert and once again, this theme is going to repeat.

Chapter 45. Littlefinger shows up to speak to Ned dressed in Black and White a bit interesting because he is talking about Robert going after a giant boar on his hunting trip. Cersei speaks of Robert and their wedding night, Ned recalls pale Blue Roses.

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who is the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?"

Ch 47. "The Kings of winter watched him pass with eyes of ice"

Here we go again with Kings of Winter and Icy eyes and Robert.

"Promise me Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses and her eyes wept blood."

So promise me again setting up the Robert scene but also of special not the garland of flowers is not in her hand or on her lap but on her head and it is refereed to as a crown multiple times in the series. Theon will also see this. We get that blue and red again. But it's the weeping, and it's funny because I wonder if she is weeping for Robert. There is a huge difference between hate between the two and what actually transpired. Much of which was not Roberts fault, and he has been tragic and miserable ever since. Sure Robert got angry, but Robert did not start that war.

So he passes the 3 KG, and meets with Robert in his bed and he is bleeding.

"Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him."

This is an inverse of Lyanna and Robert as I mentioned in an earlier post when we were discussing it.

"The room smelled of smoke and blood and death."

We get the smell not the same as Lyanna's but we are still given it.

"His face was pale as milk."

"Why do you always have to be so headstrong."

"The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right ... that's why, the girl ... the gods sent the boar ... sent to punish me ..."

"Wrong, it was wrong, I ... only a girl ..."

Again we see Dany made part of the Robert scene, but I think it has it's place and I think Martin is showing us who Robert used to be in the end, before the bitterness, and war and vengeance. Not perfect by any means but not how we see him in the first book.

Robert regrets his rule, but Ned comforts him.

"Promise me Ned."

"I promise." Promise me Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed."

Spare Dany of course help my son be better than me.

"Shall I call them back?"

"Robert gave a weak nod. "As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?"

"Will I dream?"

"You will my lord."

"Good, he said smiling. "I will give you Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

Lets not forget it is a parallel to Lyanna's death.

Ch. 58

"He remembered the jest the king had shared with him in the crypts of Winterfell, as the Kings of Winter looked on with cold stone eyes."

"Darkness" "There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls."

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

"He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us Ned," Robert said."

"The year of the false spring."

"Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laural in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

More blood and roses follow.

"Promise me Ned his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."

"I believe you will be allowed to take the Black"

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him"

"I would sooner wed the black goat of Qohor"

 Martin transitions from Jon to the watch to the Black Goat, a horned god. It's an interesting transition, but old gods can have many names in this series this one happens to have horns. Is it about Jon? I don't think so as he presented us with another Horned god at the beginning of the chapter.

I left Jon out of a lot of this because you all have already been over everything Jon and I took a different perspective. I looked at Robert, and while R+L=J is a theory I believe in, it often leaves out Robert who is very much part of the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

You see as Stannis fills in for Azor and draws a parallel to him, so Robert draws a parallel to the Night's King but alludes to this Horned god on more than one occasion. I really don't see a difference between the two. Stannis and Azor, Robert and the Night's King, the horned lord. And of course the Night's king and Azor are a perfect inverse. Now if you know about the Horned Lord, much like the dragon it is a constellation. It also goes by the name the Stallion.

The Stallion is the symbol of the Dothraki, the Horse lords, and they constellation. I have written many times that the Dothraki are Juxtaposed to the Others, more notably the Wight's, the army of the Others. Much the way Martin used the imagery of the Ghost Grass and the Dothraki sea. Which is Dothraki mythology, they also hate the number 13 and are afraid to cross the poison water, while the Others are afraid to cross the poison frozen water. The wall does have salt in it after all.

This leads me to Dany and her Dothraki and the Night's King and his Wight's and in the middle, symbolically and literally in the middle is Jon the Blue rose. Similar to another Blue rose that was fought over. What I can't figure out is what the Night's King would want with Jon. Dany far more obvious. Given like Azor and the Night's King it involved a bride, a woman they loved. Weather it is a flaming sword or three Dragons Dany and Jon are similar. I guess Martin could interchange them.

So basically it's just a very similar setup, there is more on the line, more magic, more significant characters, more build up. The colors, the parallels, the symbolism, the structure, it all kind of points to that.

Ok that is all I have. Have a happy New Years everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happy New Year SC! Stay safe.

 

[IceFire125]

Happy New Year everyone, have fun and stay safe. 

 

[Ygrain]

Awww, that's lovely!

[purple-eyes]

Happy New Year everyone, have fun and stay safe. 

 

colors are really nice. 

Though it looks like two of them are really sad. 

Was not it supposed to be a happy and exciting eloping? 

Lit looks like they are slowly going to the doom. (Maybe this is the purpose of the artist?)

[J. Stargaryen]

 

snip

I think there's some pretty good analysis here, SC. I tend to have a slightly different interpretation myself though. I think that Robert was something like a summer king, whereas Stannis is a winter king. It's not long after Robert dies that summer ends, after all. And look where Stannis ends up. On the Wall, and then marching through the North. But I think you're right to hit on a lot of those points, because there are connections there.

[LmL]

Well yeah you got death, and yes I think foreshadowing, and symbolism and theme. But is it all for Jon? Look at the progression through the different dreams and moments, watch the symbolism, associated with Jon and R+L=J? Yes, but specifically Jon, I am not so sure. Lets not overlook Robert, Robert is almost always part of these dreams and moments. What is Martin doing, I have talked about the Robert and Stannis symbolism before, and this is where death and Robert are strongest, but why? I'll show you what I think. I don't want to do all the Robert connections it would take to long so just the key ones.

So chapter 4 Robert shows up, and we have to remember how actually central Robert is to all of this. He is one of the original 3 that got this started. Show Chapter 4 Robert shows up and it is right down to the Crypts to kick off this mystery. We have talked about this before but it's my opinion that Robert and Stannis are both symbolic of the Night's King, Stannis fills in after we lose Robert. There is a great deal of Foreshadowing when we see Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert in play, in a scene. We talk about parallels and a cyclical story, and history repeating and stuff like that. No less true with these 3. The love triangle. It's a very tragic story I don't think any of them meant for this to happen and they all basically seemed to suffer and die. But is telling, it's relating a story to you that is similar to the more distant past, though not exactly a one to one and not as magical.

So down in the crypts. "Six and half feet tall, he towered over lesser men and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his house, he became a veritable giant.

"Take me down to the crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.

"He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Now a lot of people reference that to Jon, and that's fine but Jon would not be the only king in the North. There is a much older King central to the story as well, and Robert fills in well for him in this story. Don't forget who we first me and where the chain of events begins.

"More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!' That is a Jon reference, but the cold from the previous line may be referencing something else, that is heavily associated with the cold, and that cold breath symbolism plays again in relation to the Others later in the book. You know those lines

You can say Jon is a King of the North or a King in the North, but that cold, that breath, that fits another King way better than Jon, and in my opinion both characters are being touched on in this reflection of a past love triangle. They have some parallels, they have some connections, Starks, Lord Commanders, the Watch, but they are not the same.

"The Others take your mild snows,"

And he touches on the Others right after the Cold breath thing. A little reminder.

Right after that he touches on roses, golden, but that's ok, we have seen him use the Tyrells to touch on Jon and the show has done that too. But the roses are not about the cold.

"Iron Longswords had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits away." Sam will later give us some insight into vengeful spirits and iron, so will Ghost and Jon, at least I think they do.

"The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragon lords came."

"The Kings of the north"

Ned would rather these Ghost Kings not be roaming around.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

We know Ned looks at Robert through rose colored glasses here, but Martin places the Love triangle there and the idea of the bride.This Blue eyed Horned king believed the bride was to be his.

"Promise me" she had cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses." He gave her his word, they held hands,

"rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

"his great antlered helm" Martin mentions this again.

"Rhaegar lay dead in the stream" Not the last time this imagery will be used.

"The Others take my wife." Robert likes saying the Others a lot, and the Others take Cersei, well one can dream.

Ned then asks Robert about Jon. Oh the irony.

Now through the rest of thrones this bit of a story we have will progress and so does the symbolism and the colors. That is where it begins to get really interesting, with each progressive step Martin takes.

Now later on we will find out who Robert really hates, yes the Targaryens and Rhaegar most of all. So we have this blue eyed honed kind who hates the Dragons, and in the current time he wishes to Kill Deanerys and her child. He also fears the Dothraki coming. The Horse lords. That will be important later as well. The last line of that chapter is great.

"He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And Winter was coming."

If you think about Robert being a parallel of sorts for the Night's King and everything that just transpired in the first 4 chapters, it is a wow statement, and Martin will touch on this line in Neds famous dream. He will touch on it heavily.

Chapter 39. The Tower of Joy

First what kind of dream is this? It's fevre dream. Trust me read the book, it's about Vampires that are a metaphor for slavery. It's outstanding and he likes to mention it during certain dreams.

So the dream itself is juxtaposed, you can tell by the colors and by the speech between Ned and the KG especially how it ends.

"In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist."

His friends are faceless, immaterial, shadows, dark. The KG on the other hand are the exact opposite.

"the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." "And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now."

"And now it begins"

"No," Ned said with a sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow."

The solid and the immaterial. Opposing forces in conflict and kind of a nice little house of black and white imagery being touched on with the black and white and faceless. What is there place in this story, anyone know of a FM to ever come out of a Black Cell? Is something being hinted at?
 

What is important is we see this as opposing forces in conflict. They are very much at an inverse.

Remember those dead eyes I mentioned?

"Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

We all know about dead blue eyes in this series. And you have the blue and the red, ice and fire. What does this scene lead to? A moonlit room and Robert. More talk of Lyanna and Rhaegar and of Roberts loss and of course Daenerys and her baby.

And so comes the next part of the progression the Death of Robert and once again, this theme is going to repeat.

Chapter 45. Littlefinger shows up to speak to Ned dressed in Black and White a bit interesting because he is talking about Robert going after a giant boar on his hunting trip. Cersei speaks of Robert and their wedding night, Ned recalls pale Blue Roses.

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who is the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?"

Ch 47. "The Kings of winter watched him pass with eyes of ice"

Here we go again with Kings of Winter and Icy eyes and Robert.

"Promise me Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses and her eyes wept blood."

So promise me again setting up the Robert scene but also of special not the garland of flowers is not in her hand or on her lap but on her head and it is refereed to as a crown multiple times in the series. Theon will also see this. We get that blue and red again. But it's the weeping, and it's funny because I wonder if she is weeping for Robert. There is a huge difference between hate between the two and what actually transpired. Much of which was not Roberts fault, and he has been tragic and miserable ever since. Sure Robert got angry, but Robert did not start that war.

So he passes the 3 KG, and meets with Robert in his bed and he is bleeding.

"Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him."

This is an inverse of Lyanna and Robert as I mentioned in an earlier post when we were discussing it.

"The room smelled of smoke and blood and death."

We get the smell not the same as Lyanna's but we are still given it.

"His face was pale as milk."

"Why do you always have to be so headstrong."

"The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right ... that's why, the girl ... the gods sent the boar ... sent to punish me ..."

"Wrong, it was wrong, I ... only a girl ..."

Again we see Dany made part of the Robert scene, but I think it has it's place and I think Martin is showing us who Robert used to be in the end, before the bitterness, and war and vengeance. Not perfect by any means but not how we see him in the first book.

Robert regrets his rule, but Ned comforts him.

"Promise me Ned."

"I promise." Promise me Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed."

Spare Dany of course help my son be better than me.

"Shall I call them back?"

"Robert gave a weak nod. "As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?"

"Will I dream?"

"You will my lord."

"Good, he said smiling. "I will give you Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

Lets not forget it is a parallel to Lyanna's death.

Ch. 58

"He remembered the jest the king had shared with him in the crypts of Winterfell, as the Kings of Winter looked on with cold stone eyes."

"Darkness" "There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls."

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

"He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us Ned," Robert said."

"The year of the false spring."

"Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laural in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

More blood and roses follow.

"Promise me Ned his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."

"I believe you will be allowed to take the Black"

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him"

"I would sooner wed the black goat of Qohor"

 Martin transitions from Jon to the watch to the Black Goat, a horned god. It's an interesting transition, but old gods can have many names in this series this one happens to have horns. Is it about Jon? I don't think so as he presented us with another Horned god at the beginning of the chapter.

I left Jon out of a lot of this because you all have already been over everything Jon and I took a different perspective. I looked at Robert, and while R+L=J is a theory I believe in, it often leaves out Robert who is very much part of the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

You see as Stannis fills in for Azor and draws a parallel to him, so Robert draws a parallel to the Night's King but alludes to this Horned god on more than one occasion. I really don't see a difference between the two. Stannis and Azor, Robert and the Night's King, the horned lord. And of course the Night's king and Azor are a perfect inverse. Now if you know about the Horned Lord, much like the dragon it is a constellation. It also goes by the name the Stallion.

The Stallion is the symbol of the Dothraki, the Horse lords, and they constellation. I have written many times that the Dothraki are Juxtaposed to the Others, more notably the Wight's, the army of the Others. Much the way Martin used the imagery of the Ghost Grass and the Dothraki sea. Which is Dothraki mythology, they also hate the number 13 and are afraid to cross the poison water, while the Others are afraid to cross the poison frozen water. The wall does have salt in it after all.

This leads me to Dany and her Dothraki and the Night's King and his Wight's and in the middle, symbolically and literally in the middle is Jon the Blue rose. Similar to another Blue rose that was fought over. What I can't figure out is what the Night's King would want with Jon. Dany far more obvious. Given like Azor and the Night's King it involved a bride, a woman they loved. Weather it is a flaming sword or three Dragons Dany and Jon are similar. I guess Martin could interchange them.

So basically it's just a very similar setup, there is more on the line, more magic, more significant characters, more build up. The colors, the parallels, the symbolism, the structure, it all kind of points to that.

Ok that is all I have. Have a happy New Years everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of my favorite things in ASOIAF analysis is when other people reach similar conclusions to my own through entirely different lines of research. I agree that Robert and Rhaegar, horned green lord and horned red lord, are a kind of pair of opposite archetypes. In classic mythology, the horned god is generally thought of as Cerrunos and his related family of green men, John Barleycorns, Jacks in the Green, etc. This is the Celtic or pagan horned god, and Garth and Robert are basically pulled right from this body of folklore. But we've also got the oak / holly king idea of two brother gods who kill each other every half-year and take turns ruling over summer and winter. This idea is by no means confined to the Oak and Holly King, however - there are a lot of similar mutual annihilation / take turns killing each other God pairs. Sometimes it's a father and sun, or brothers, or lovers, etc. All of these myths relate to the cycles of nature and life, which of course feature prominently in all world mythologies. It's also similar to the idea of te mesoamerica sole dirties, where one deity becomes the sun, rules for millennia, and then is thrown down by another God who becomes the next sun. These suns are like world ages. 

There are two other strains of "horned god" Martin is using: the baphomet / goat headed figure, and the idea of horns to depict lunar deities used in Egyptian mythology. Speaking of the latter first, the Egyptians saw the crescent moon as resembling the horns of bulls and cows - their most important sacrificial animal. Lunar deities like Isis have a moon crescent or cow horns above her head for this reason. Cerrunos uses this idea as well - his horns or antlers are indie tidied with the crescent moon. The crescent moon also represents the curved blades used in ritual sacrifice - Martin directly calls out to this in Bran's last chapter where the moon is sharp and thin as the blade of a knife, followed by a vision of human sacrifice with a curved sickle blade. Moon crescent, sickle knife, sacrificial horned animals. All related. 

Baphomet's horns are usually goat horns, and he's not associated with being the "lord of the greenwood" as Cerrunos and his ilk are. Baphomet is the one who brings divine knowledge (starry wisdom) to mankind. Cerrunos is unambiguously male, and represents male virility, while baphomet is androgynous and represents a unified feminine and masculine energy. Baphomet's archetype is the same as Lucifer, Prometheus, Gilgamesh, and others who steal the fire or knowledge of heaven. These are actually Morningstar deities, and their calling cards are the knowledge of heaven brought to earth as well as sacrifice and resurrection. These themes fit perfectly with Azor Ahai, who was (my hypothesis) also known as the Bloodstone Emperor. He stole the fire of heaven by plucking the second moon from the sky - the moon cracked when Lightbringer was forged, according to the legend - and the fiery dragons (black meteors) poured forth. These black meteors were used to make "Lightbringer" ("Nightbringer," really) through horrific blood sacrifice. In other words, the dragons horned gods challenged heaven and stole heavens fire, which lead directly to the Long Night. 

Garth the Green is renowned for making all the plants bloom and grow, and is associated with sacrifice - perhaps his own, or perhaps others sacrificed to him, says TWOIAF. I suspect that Garth was himself a sacrifice, somehow, and that his death helped end the LN. 

To tie this all together, I belive that dragonlords - the people who use fire magic - began as greenseers. Just as Mel is literally transforming herself through use of fire magic, I belive that Azor Ahai represents of the "horned lords" - the ones we know as Green Men from the Isle of Faces - who transformed via fire magic and founded the races of people we know as dragonlords. Azor Ahai is like a corrupted version of Garth. That's why we have this cycle of them killing each other. Robert and Rhaegar fighting in the trident is a great symbol of this, with one horned lord killing the other and replacing him as king.

Ill finish with this: Azor Ahai broke the moon - it's right there in his story. I am dead certain that the Hammer of the Waters was a moon meteor impact, one which occurred at the fall of the LN and not millennia before, btw, and we are told that "the greenseers" called it down. Azor Ahai broke the moon, and the greenseers dropped the hammer. If Azor Ahai was a greenseer - a naughty one, lets say - then we see how these stories are both true. The Hammer was a moon meteor, and it was dropped by naughty greenseer Azor Ahai. Recall that we have two conflicting stories about where the greenseers worked the magic to call down the Hammer - either on the Isle of Faces or in the Children's Tower at Moat Cailin. Well, cotf don't gather in castle towers. And Moat Cailin doesn't even seem like it was built for normal humans - it's built on a scale unmatched by anything in Westeros, and with a technique unmatched by anything in Westeros. Its origins are a total mystery - it's an anachronism. Finally we have that one song about giants who live in castles - but the giants we met don't live in any sort of dwelling, much less a castle.

Now recall that Robert becomes a horned god AND a giant when he dons his antlered helm. That's the deal - these greenseers were not cotf. They were very large horned green men.

And Azor Ahai was one of them, until he stole the fire of heaven by cracking the moon and underwent fire transformation. That's why we keep seeing burning trees and burning wood which creates an illusion of "fiery sorcerors" or "fiery dancers" or both - this is symbolizing greenseers being converted by fire magic. Burning trees that create fiery sorcerors. 

As for the horned lord being the stallion, the stallion who mounts the world is actually a reference to Odin and Yggdrasil. The Yggdrasil tree was "Odin's horse" (one of the translations of Yggdrasil) which allowed him to astrally project himself through the universe - that's the stallion that mounts the world, literally. Odin was hung on the tree to obtain magic, just as greenseers are, and the tree is part of himself, as the weirs and greenseers are part of each other. I know it sounds weird - but the stallion who mounts the world is a vision of a greenseer, mounting the world through the astral projection tree which is a horse. Notice the terror associated with the SWMTW - even the Dothraki are terrified of their own savior figure. The world trembles at the thunder of his hooves - that's the thunder and lightning of the hammer of the gods. Lightning and hammers come together in Odin's son, Thor, who shoots lightning from his hammer. The SWMTW was a greenseer who dropped the hammer, and sent that thunderbolt the Grey King used to steal fire from the gods. These are all the same story - stealing fire of the gods, moon meteors which are like hammers, thunderbolts, sun-spears and island drowning sea dragons (when they land in the ocean). Lightning, hammers, greenseers, world mounting stallions - all refer to the horned lords who went rogue. Azor Ahai the naughty greenseer. 

[J. Stargaryen]

I think I am probably off for the rest of the night, so I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy New Year!

[Ygrain]

Happy New Year to everyone!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think I am probably off for the rest of the night, so I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy New Year!

Happy New Year to everyone!

Happy New Year with lots of new leads to the whys and whens and hows of R+L=J

[Alia of the knife]

Happy New Year!!!!

 

[Ser Creighton]

Happy New Year SC! Stay safe.

 

She wolf and last dragon? Is that suppose to be Arya and Dany? Dany looks kind of masculine and Arya looks a little older than I recall.

colors are really nice. 

Though it looks like two of them are really sad. 

Was not it supposed to be a happy and exciting eloping? 

Lit looks like they are slowly going to the doom. (Maybe this is the purpose of the artist?)

That's Rhaegar being happy, it's hard to tell when your that Emo.

I think there's some pretty good analysis here, SC. I tend to have a slightly different interpretation myself though. I think that Robert was something like a summer king, whereas Stannis is a winter king. It's not long after Robert dies that summer ends, after all. And look where Stannis ends up. On the Wall, and then marching through the North. But I think you're right to hit on a lot of those points, because there are connections there.

I don't disagree with the idea of Robert as a Summer King he even wants a feast at his death, but I would say Stannis is like the fall King. Because that's what comes next and because well winter already seems to have another blue eyed king and he seems real wintery. Like Super Winter. I don't mean Jon either, water is for the spring even if he goes by snow that shit melts. It also seems we have spent a large part of this series in fall, and Stannis will probably transition to the Night's King. I don't mean personally but that will be next.

I don't know if we can say we have had a real king in fall, Joff didn't make it, Robb didn't make it, Renly, Balon and Stannis. Now we have Euron, Tommen, Stannis and Aegon.  The thing about Stannis is like fall he seems to fall between the Night's King and Robert. He has all the Baratheon baggage, and he is trying to battle for the crown, and the whole blue eyed king thing. You have that army from the North with him, and maybe eventually the Vale and what is left of the Riverlands, who knows? Maybe even a conflict with Aegon who is at Storms end and of course this strange thing with the Tyrells being roses. He also has this fake Azor angle and that story is just a Juxtaposition of the Night's king. I am just guessing but I would guess there are probably hints about that past with Robert and the future with the Night's king story arc. But that is where I see Stannis filling in, in terms of seasons. Because he has both the Robert thing and this Azor thing and he isn't really either. I am interested to see how This blue eyed king, and this Family of roses, and this Young Dragon interact. Because after that we know we have another Targaryen and another rose, and another blue eyed king, and that is really kind of what the books are working towards. Stannis, the Tyrells, and Aegon are probably important, but I think we all probably know the other three are probably a little more important, at least more third act end game.

It's kind of like the whole Bloodraven, Euron, Urrathon, Crone, Quaithe, Night's King thing he does. Where you just end going that can't be a coincidence. Yeah Euron just happens to have that giant red eye on his sigil for no reason. Though you know he is not Bloodraven or the Night's King. But gosh there are some interesting connections, what is Martin trying to say? And then what ever he is trying say probably has multiple interpretations and meanings, and clues. You have heard Martin were he will answer something with well yeah there is that but there is also "insert long list here" meanings.

I will say this I want to see the Night's King on a giant Dead Elk. That imagery would be awesome. I know we have Coldhands another Blue eyed dude on a giant elk. Which reminds me, how is that some of the first imagery we get in game of thrones is a giant elk and a dire wolf killing each other, and later we get Bran catching a ride from an undead blue eyed guy on a giant elk who refers to himself as a Monster a good thing? Granted they ate the elk. But still.

Anyway Roberts sysmbolism and many of the other so called kings is a little hard to get exact. With Dany it was easy, we see the comet the night of the pyre and the day Drogo dies, a king in his own right. Robert and Ned also die around this time. Bran relates Neds death and the comet to us. But the comet is higher in the sky. How long was Ned in the Black cells and that stuff? With Dany it's far more exact, you are there for it, you know when the comet shows up and when the White Ravens fly.

After that point we get a lot of dead kings, and it's fall and the kings are dropping like leaves.

But in Dance we get that second white Raven, and what happened there? Dany has another fire dragon moment thing, but no dead kings or wolves. Oh but wait, we do get someone dead, not to say he plans on staying that way. But the only guy I can associate with wolves, and blue and kings in the series, just got knifed. We all expect Jon to change after this, we also sort of got a Comet in Tycho. Who's name in our history is tied to a great comet. So we do get this sort of repetitive idea with Jon but it is far more subtle. And of course we expect a different Jon, Jon Stark or Jon Targaryen. I still like snow personally, but you get the idea. But we got the boar and the supposed death, or actual death that doesn't stick. But a king did get nailed and Dany did do the whole red sands, burnt hair, fire dragon thing. Not the exact same but clearly some similarities, like red sand and loss hair.  Jon not the same as Robert but, we got a boar, we got stabbed in the stomach, we even got wine, blue and a king. It was also a treason. Dany once asked what is up with all the threes, we could say the same thing about boars.

I guess I am not sure if Stannis and Tommen, and Euron, and Aegon really qualify as the real deal in terms of kings. All of them you can kind of dump in the whole lies category, Stannis is not who he thinks he is, Tommen? Where do you start? Your life is a lie kid. Euron? Really it's all he does, and  Aegon? Yeeeeeeeah, just a hunch but I think he just might be this mummers dragon thing, I have heard rumors on the board. Though JCRB told me he was totally legit. Although I suspect a conflict of interest. Jon on the other hand has a little more substance, he may have no clue about it, but still he does not need to know for it to work and to figure out that clue all you need is R+L=J. And of course you get Jon Barley Corn which is the harvest, which is also the end of fall. We kind of see what really triggers this change of seasons, or marks it and it's not so much the other "Kings". If there was another king, another treason, another boar, and another hole in a stomach, and another hair loss moment, and even another comet, it wasn't Stannis or those others. It was the Dragon Queen and well only one guy who can fill in for the king in this case. Even if Stannis runs that line between Robert and the Night's King I know which King went down at the end of Dance, and right around then white ravens and history sort of repeating itself. Not exactly the same but some similarities and for some odd reason pork.

 

[LmL]

Coldhands does not have blue eyes, just for the record. They are black as a raven's eyes. 

[Ser Creighton]

Coldhands does not have blue eyes, just for the record. They are black as a raven's eyes. 

Doesn't matter, he is an undead guy on a giant elk picking up a dire wolf, the imagery still relates to that scene. Coldhands could of been on anything, Martin picked a giant Elk and I am pretty certain he has not forgotten that scene, the scene that inspired the series. As for blue or black, they tend to go just fine with undead, same color as the shade trees. In fact it's probably why Euron has one blue and one black eye and is heavily associated with the warlocks and the shade of the evening. Same reason Bl;oodraven is an albino with a red eye, same color as a weirwood. The imagery does not change, elk and dire wolf does not change, undead does not change. Though you still get a blue eyed king in the scene on the Elk.

 

[LmL]

I'm with you on the symbolism, I just wanted to be clear about the facts. I agree that Coldhands is an complex and important bad of symbols, certainly, and the elk and elk antlers call out to the opening scene, yes, but both of those scenes are referring to a deeper truth about the horned lords, green men, the King of Winter, and the Others, IMO.

The fact that Coldhands eyes are not blue is actually quite important. It's one of the things that signifies that he is not like other wights, and is not animated by the blue fire of the Others' magic. And that difference is super important, I believe. 

[Lord Varys]

The fact that Coldhands eyes are not blue is actually quite important. It's one of the things that signifies that he is not like other wights, and is not animated by the blue fire of the Others' magic. And that difference is super important, I believe. 

Well, I guess the lack of the blue eyes is what makes him special (i.e. independent). This concept most likely will become very important in the near or not so near future when the magic of the Others and what it exactly does is explored.

My guess is that if we go with Coldhands not being directly controlled by Bloodraven (unlikely since he does not behave as if this was the case in ADwD) it is very likely that Coldhands originally was a skinchanger who either reclaimed his body after his death from within the animal he had taken over to begin his second life (if that is possible against Varamyr's belief), or did so from within the body of another skinchanger he had taken over before he died. Doing something like that might actually be a very interesting thing since Coldhands seems to be effectively sort of immortal, unlike any 'living being'.

[LmL]

Well, I guess the lack of the blue eyes is what makes him special (i.e. independent). This concept most likely will become very important in the near or not so near future when the magic of the Others and what it exactly does is explored.

My guess is that if we go with Coldhands not being directly controlled by Bloodraven (unlikely since he does not behave as if this was the case in ADwD) it is very likely that Coldhands originally was a skinchanger who either reclaimed his body after his death from within the animal he had taken over to begin his second life (if that is possible against Varamyr's belief), or did so from within the body of another skinchanger he had taken over before he died. Doing something like that might actually be a very interesting thing since Coldhands seems to be effectively sort of immortal, unlike any 'living being'.

I am 100% in agreement with this and have been for a long time. He acts like a powerful greenseer or skinchanger.. except he's dead. I think he's showing us two things:

1.) that resurrected Jon will have his own soul or consciousness (not a remnant like Beric), and that the will retain his magical abilities

2.) Coldhands, or another skinchanger wight like him, would be ideal to journey into the dead lands as the Last Hero and his 12 "dead" companions did. No need to eat, no fear of cold, no need to sleep... I have found other clues indicating the 12 companions were all greenseers or skinchangers, so I think it makes a lot of sense if they were actually undead. Coldhands may be one of his 13, which means... 8,000 years... wandering the North, waiting for Bran.