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Lord Wraith

R+L=J v.157

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I can't seem find @Ygrain's post where she suggests L's brothers might have hindered her jousting the next day.

Anyway, maybe they would. But then, why would Lyanna want to continue in the lists in the first place. The revenge part done was... all done. Mission accomplished so to say. Time to enjoy the rest of the show.

You're right, of course, but as it is said here, appetite grows with eating. There is no telling whether at not even fifteen, Lyanna was prudent enough not to press her luck. We are told repeatedly how the tourney atmosphere can affect people, and she has just tasted her first victory: she avenged Howland, and pulled everyone by their noses. She might have wanted to continue just because, why the heck not - she was young and strong and it was spring and she had no idea about the danger.

Hm, come to think of it, there may have been another candidate to put some sense in her head - Rhaegar himself :-)

ETA: Either way, I am so thrilled that we are going to find out all that had happened at HH! 

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No matter how lyanna is excited and eager and over confident to beat more knights after her victory, I bet she dropped that idea at hearing that Robert swore to unhorse her. 

Why GRRM made Robert swore? He was not famous for jousting. It should be barristan or arthur or rhaegar or Brandon or Yohn Royce or anyone. But GRRM made Robert to say this and he is fiancée of lyanna. 

Lyanna did not dare to behave like this before her future husband. She knew this is improper. 

 

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You may of course have more than a point in tourney atmosphere ... tasted her first victory ... avenged ... pulled everyone by their noses ... just because ... why the heck not ... she was young and strong ... it was spring ... no idea about the danger -- that makes already nine of them.

ETA: Either way, I am so thrilled that we are going to find out all that had happened at HH! 

We are?

Lyanna did not dare to behave like this before her future husband. She knew this is improper. 

But then she already did the first time round.

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You may of course have more than a point in tourney atmosphere ... tasted her first victory ... avenged ... pulled everyone by their noses ... just because ... why the heck not ... she was young and strong ... it was spring ... no idea about the danger -- that makes already nine of them.

We are?

But then she already did the first time round.

as a mystery knight. 

Imagine she was unhorsed into dirt by robert in front of whole realm to see, do you think robert or brandon will give her a rose crown? 

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We are?

GRRM supposedly said in an interview that we are going to learn the details of HH - though I must admit I might have got carried away and didn't check the source.

 On the other hand, it does make sense - somehow, I never fully realized until JonCon's Red Beard pointed it out, that we currently have a mix of Lyanna-Elia character, Elia Sand, headed towards JonCon and fAegon, so quite some reminiscencing aka info dump is bound to happen.

- Which makes me think about another thing: what exactly did Yandel mean that by all accounts, Lyanna was a wild and boyish thing? I don't think that Lyanna's mischief with Benjen up North made it beyond the gates of Winterfell, and I don't think that fondness of horseriding quite qualifies. Could it be that Lyanna's feats at HH became known? Did even her KotLT identity leak eventually? The way Meera and Jojen find it strange that Bran never heard the story seems to imply that it was no secret, or else Bran wouldn't be told, and if even the Stark kids could know, then a lot of people probably knew, as well, or am I wrong?

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GRRM supposedly said in an interview that we are going to learn the details of HH - though I must admit I might have got carried away and didn't check the source.

 On the other hand, it does make sense - somehow, I never fully realized until JonCon's Red Beard pointed it out, that we currently have a mix of Lyanna-Elia character, Elia Sand, headed towards JonCon and fAegon, so quite some reminiscencing aka info dump is bound to happen.

- Which makes me think about another thing: what exactly did Yandel mean that by all accounts, Lyanna was a wild and boyish thing? I don't think that Lyanna's mischief with Benjen up North made it beyond the gates of Winterfell, and I don't think that fondness of horseriding quite qualifies. Could it be that Lyanna's feats at HH became known? Did even her KotLT identity leak eventually? The way Meera and Jojen find it strange that Bran never heard the story seems to imply that it was no secret, or else Bran wouldn't be told, and if even the Stark kids could know, then a lot of people probably knew, as well, or am I wrong?

I do not think lyanna=kolt is a public thing. If lyanna was publicly declared as this mystery knight at the tourney, we would know for sure. 

But kolt story should be known to many people, since so many people witnessed it. Just like meera's version. Just nobody links this to lyanna's crowning. 

About lyanna is a wild and boyish little thing, I think this is just how she looks like. Especially compared to those elegant court ladies such as ashara and elia. Imagine you get arya and sansa together, then of course arya is a wild and boyish little thing. 

 

 

 

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GRRM supposedly said in an interview that we are going to learn the details of HH - though I must admit I might have got carried away and didn't check the source.

 On the other hand, it does make sense - somehow, I never fully realized until JonCon's Red Beard pointed it out, that we currently have a mix of Lyanna-Elia character, Elia Sand, headed towards JonCon and fAegon, so quite some reminiscencing aka info dump is bound to happen.

- Which makes me think about another thing: what exactly did Yandel mean that by all accounts, Lyanna was a wild and boyish thing? I don't think that Lyanna's mischief with Benjen up North made it beyond the gates of Winterfell, and I don't think that fondness of horseriding quite qualifies. Could it be that Lyanna's feats at HH became known? Did even her KotLT identity leak eventually? The way Meera and Jojen find it strange that Bran never heard the story seems to imply that it was no secret, or else Bran wouldn't be told, and if even the Stark kids could know, then a lot of people probably knew, as well, or am I wrong?

I took it a a nod to the Lannisters or possibly a suggestion that she wasn't as refined as the Southern Ladies. We have also speculated on that as the reason that Rickard had Lyanna down at Harrenhal in the first place. She had no living mother (I think) and 3 brothers and father. She would be boyish under those circumstances.

The fact that she beat up 3 squires for harassing Howland (and the fact that she could hold her own and unhorse 3 Knights in a joust) suggests she was no delicate flower.

I think Lyanna probably had a reputation. It wouldn't have required her to have been known as the KotLT. It would also be odd that we haven't been told this, or why Jojen and Meera didn't mention to Bran the common knowledge fact that it was his aunt. They would have no reason not to tell him.

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I think Lyanna probably had a reputation. It wouldn't have required her to have been known as the KotLT. It would also be odd that we haven't been told this, or why Jojen and Meera didn't mention to Bran the common knowledge fact that it was his aunt. They would have no reason not to tell him.

I'd say that we haven't been told because outside Ned's head, no-one really talks much about Lyanna. As for Jojen and Meera, I think that they didn't unravel the whole because of Ned's silence. For some reason, he didn't think the story appropriate for his young son, so they went slow about it.

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I'd say that we haven't been told because outside Ned's head, no-one really talks much about Lyanna. As for Jojen and Meera, I think that they didn't unravel the whole because of Ned's silence. For some reason, he didn't think the story appropriate for his young son, so they went slow about it.

I think meera only knows that much about kolt. 

It was howland who did not reveal whole thing. 

whoever was in HH tourney knew this much about kolt. It happened in front of all the attendees. It is not a secret. But only a few knew it is lyanna. 

They are Rhaegar, howland, possibly benjen and possibly Elia. And until end of rebellion, Ned stark. 

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I think meera only knows that much about kolt. 

It was howland who did not reveal whole thing. 

whoever was in HH tourney knew this much about kolt. It happened in front of all the attendees. It is not a secret. But only a few knew it is lyanna. 

They are Rhaegar, howland, possibly benjen and possibly Elia. And until end of rebellion, Ned stark. 

Has anyone discussed that "Knight Of The Laughing Tree" spells "kolt," and a colt is a young male horse. Could this indicate a male KOLT? I'm in favor of Lyanna but I thought I would point it out.

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I don't know if Lyanna is shut down or she just decides to stop because she has accomplished her mission. It's an interesting question of who would do the "shutting down" - her elder brothers or the crown prince - but I just don't have enough information to make a judgement of what I think is more likely. What intrigues me more is the need for Brandon and Eddard to shut this mystery knight down and find out who "he" is - regardless of whether they actually succeed in doing so. Given the political tensions between House Stark and the crown I don't think the brothers can afford to let it go on and have to look into who is fueling the fire between Winterfell and King's Landing. Or does Brandon like the tensions to be tightened? Also of interest is, if Rhaegar meets with Lyanna upon finding her with the armor and shield, does she tell her brothers about the meeting - in whole or in part. The reasons I ask is it is interesting considering other events we know of happening in the tourney at the time. For instance, I'd love to know when Brandon challenges Rhaegar or vice versa during the jousting. And other more important questions of timing as well.

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I don't know if Lyanna is shut down or she just decides to stop because she has accomplished her mission. It's an interesting question of who would do the "shutting down" - her elder brothers or the crown prince - but I just don't have enough information to make a judgement of what I think is more likely. What intrigues me more is the need for Brandon and Eddard to shut this mystery knight down and find out who "he" is - regardless of whether they actually succeed in doing so. Given the political tensions between House Stark and the crown I don't think the brothers can afford to let it go on and have to look into who is fueling the fire between Winterfell and King's Landing. Or does Brandon like the tensions to be tightened? Also of interest is, if Rhaegar meets with Lyanna upon finding her with the armor and shield, does she tell her brothers about the meeting - in whole or in part. The reasons I ask is it is interesting considering other events we know of happening in the tourney at the time. For instance, I'd love to know when Brandon challenges Rhaegar or vice versa during the jousting. And other more important questions of timing as well.

I think given the mad king declared her as enemy, lyanna did not need anybody else to shut her down. She surely would not want to have anything with this mystery knight after aerys's response. 

About brandon, since he should be a great jouster, I assume he faces rhaegar pretty late. Surely after kolt drama. 

And I do not think he knows anything about lyanna is kolt. If so, he would not be so angry at crowning. 

 

 

 

 

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Our future King visiting, touring, engaging with locals at the beach, in the kingdom of Dorne (actually Copacabana Beach, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)

Dude is practically a local, being born in the outskirts Dorne that is ^_^

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I don't know if Lyanna is shut down or she just decides to stop because she has accomplished her mission. It's an interesting question of who would do the "shutting down" - her elder brothers or the crown prince - but I just don't have enough information to make a judgement of what I think is more likely. What intrigues me more is the need for Brandon and Eddard to shut this mystery knight down and find out who "he" is - regardless of whether they actually succeed in doing so. Given the political tensions between House Stark and the crown I don't think the brothers can afford to let it go on and have to look into who is fueling the fire between Winterfell and King's Landing. Or does Brandon like the tensions to be tightened? Also of interest is, if Rhaegar meets with Lyanna upon finding her with the armor and shield, does she tell her brothers about the meeting - in whole or in part. The reasons I ask is it is interesting considering other events we know of happening in the tourney at the time. For instance, I'd love to know when Brandon challenges Rhaegar or vice versa during the jousting. And other more important questions of timing as well.

Now that's an interesting question, as well - who challenged whom, and if there was a hidden agenda behind the challenge. I have always wondered whether Brandon's overreactions to Rhaegar may have been partly due to being unhorsed by him, and if Rhaegar was "the dude I wanted to teach a lesson handed me my ass", it would make things even more interesting :D

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Now that's an interesting question, as well - who challenged whom, and if there was a hidden agenda behind the challenge. I have always wondered whether Brandon's overreactions to Rhaegar may have been partly due to being unhorsed by him, and if Rhaegar was "the dude I wanted to teach a lesson handed me my ass", it would make things even more interesting :D

Brandon's reaction at the crowning was likely partially influenced by his failure. 

Otherwise there is no need to list him as one of the people who failed towards Rhaegar. 

He must be a rash and proud man and his pride was hurt 

But the way he acted later at the abduction, I do not think it has much relationship with this jousting. 

I feel that was partially influenced by his duel with LF. 

He almost killed LF using duel, so probably when he heard about Rhaegar, his first response is like this: let me duel and kill him too!

 

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It would have been about separating distance between her and the shield. If the shield was found with her, either she would become suspected, or her brothers, and she would want to prevent that.

And when the Crown Prince asks a question, he wants an answer, and Lyanna would not be in a position to refuse to answer such a question. She could have lied, to be sure, but the question would be whether or not Rhaegar (and presumably at least one (kings)guard he had with him) would believe that.

There are a lot of easy ways to get rid of things, that is probably not one of the best ways, it would serve to heighten the mystery which is probably what the Knight wanted. The Knight may have been having some fun with the mystery aspect of being a mystery Knight.

The sigil itself does not represent any known house, which leaves few options. It is an old personal sigil that the Knight found and used, much like Brienne. It was an old shield that was repainted. it was an old shield that was painted because the Knight recalled another sigil. It was painted because it held personal meaning to the Knight.

Martin has used those ideas before with Dunk and Brienne. So the questions can be, who painted that sigil and what was the meaning behind it? Or where did the Knight get it? If it is an old sigil it may be addressed in something like Dunk and egg at some point, extended canon and provide a clue. If was a personal choice, it neither fits with the dead tree of Blackwood, nor the tree at Winterfell, nor the tree at Harrenhal.

Howland is tied to an island of Weirwoods.

Lyanna could of had a dream and maybe Bloodraven found something amusing. We know he watches Stark children and Starks in general.

As for Lyanna yeah she was at Harrenhal and probably got a bit of a rep. As for her beating up the squires, I have never read that as a fight, more like Lyanna running in and hitting them and them running away. I doubt the daughter of of the Warden of the North and fiancee of Robert Baratheon was unknown. The option of even thinking about fighting back involves impaling yourself on the spike of a giant war hammer.

Personally I don't think she would care if someone hit her back in a fight, but it's Robert, Brandon, and Ned. And the 3 squires are already clearly cowards.

ETA: Was also replying to Avalantis, not sure what happened there, a post has vanished.

 

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To stack speculation upon speculation, perhaps Rickard planned to send Lyanna to learn southern lady-like ways from Minisa (Whent) Tully, but she died. For some reason, possibly upon Brandon or Hoster's suggestion, Lyanna was redirected to foster with the Whent's of Harrenhal. She was already there and there was a soon to be cousin-in-law of around the same age. Heck, they could have consulted Rickard via raven.

This works well with the answer to the question "why were the Tully's not at Harrenhal" with the same answer; Minisa died recently.

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To stack speculation upon speculation, perhaps Rickard planned to send Lyanna to learn southern lady-like ways from Minisa (Whent) Tully, but she died. For some reason, possibly upon Brandon or Hoster's suggestion, Lyanna was redirected to foster with the Whent's of Harrenhal. She was already there and there was a soon to be cousin-in-law of around the same age. Heck, they could have consulted Rickard via raven.

This works well with the answer to the question "why were the Tully's not at Harrenhal" with the same answer; Minisa died recently.

Minisa died when Edmure was very young. Edume was Brandon's squire at the duel. That is not a "very young age". 

And usually people do not make a wedding when the mother of bride just died a few months ago. 

I do not think Minisa just died recently. 

 

 

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Minisa died when Edmure was very young. Edume was Brandon's squire at the duel. That is not a "very young age". 

And usually people do not make a wedding when the mother of bride just died a few months ago. 

I do not think Minisa just died recently. 

 

The Petyr-Brandon duel was almost a year after the Harrenhal tourney. So the timing of the wedding is irrelevant. Frankly, the fact that Cat was as old as she was and not married already lends credence to the idea that the family was in mourning and waited another year or so for Cat to marry Brandon.

Cat says Edmure was young to be acting as a squire, which was almost a year after the tourney. And we don't actually know how old Edmure is.

How do we know how old Edmure was when Minisa died? We don't.

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The Petyr-Brandon duel was almost a year after the Harrenhal tourney. So the timing of the wedding is irrelevant. Frankly, the fact that Cat was as old as she was and not married already lends credence to the idea that the family was in mourning and waited another year or so for Cat to marry Brandon.

Cat says Edmure was young to be acting as a squire, which was almost a year after the tourney. And we don't actually know how old Edmure is.

How do we know how old Edmure was when Minisa died? We don't.

it is not almost one year after tourney. 

We have no idea when is the tourney, there are hints that tourney happened pretty late in the year 281. 

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