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The Eyes of the Rider who flew on the Winds of Winter


Chicxulub

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There has been something bothering me about these books for a long time.  Something that I'd notice time and again, but which always went to the back of my mind never to be considered or explored.  Today, I finally looked into it, but couldn't find anything directly relevant to the meaning of this on the forums or the wiki (though I'll admit that the forum's search feature is obtuse; I apologize to the generally brilliant members of this forum if someone has already had this idea [which wouldn't surprise me at all]).
 
I think that there may be a key piece of foreshadowing missing from the series' outlook, which could answer a debate that we've had for quite a while:
 
• ASOIAF ACOK 35  Bran Stark 1 "Look for the ice dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye."
 
• ASOIAF ASOS 63 Davos VI Davos Seaworth 1 "The clouds hid most of the ice dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north."
 
• D&E DE 2 The Sworn Sword Duncan The Tall 1" But there were clouds to the north, and the blue eye of the ice dragon was lost to him, the blue eye that pointed north."
 
There are also many other references to Ice Dragons in the series, ALWAYS in relation to the North and extreme cold.  The point here isn't that there are/were ice dragons.  This seems to be a given at this point, even if they are thought of by the population of Westeros in a similar fashion as our normal "fire" dragons.  The point that matters here is three very clear references to the rider of the Ice Dragon constellation having bright blue eyes.  
 

From the Wiki: 

The Others appear in A Game of Thrones as tall and gaunt with flesh pale as milk. In A Clash of Kings Gilly tells Jon Snow they have cold blue eyes bright as blue stars. The Night's King's corpse queen is similarly described as having skin as pale as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

 

Thanks to the Wiki, the World Book, what we've read in the novels, and GRRM's love of foreshadowing, this seems like a piece of solid evidence that we may in fact see dragon thralls of the Others.  Whether they're wighted "normal" dragons or dragons of a different element (which itself raises interesting questions, since all four traditional elements are acknowledged in the series) is never clarified however.  Combined with the fact that the bright blue eye of the Rider is used to find the North, this may not be a coincidence.

The interesting part in this to me is the process by which constellations come to exist. In many situations, the same asterism (a group of stars) can be called several different things in as many different cultures may view it, or might in fact be parts of two completely different constellations to some cultures.  These groupings of stars are often named according to cultural memories relevant to the people who experienced them and who are now viewing said asterism.  What is being experienced here by our characters is an asterism that has become a constellation known as the Ice Dragon, whose rider has a bright blue eye pointing due North.  This constellation is known is Westeros, where the Long Night left a powerful, powerful cultural scar that has spanned the collective memory of the continent for eight thousand years.  When the Others came to obliterate "every creature with hot blood in its veins", it stands to reason that Ice Dragons would have made a POWERFUL impact on the First Men who were unfortunate enough to have experienced them; an impact powerful enough to have warranted the naming of a constellation that contains the bright blue eye that points due north.

***Also, as a crackpot addendum***  It is entirely plausible that the reference to killing everything with hot blood in its veins could be a reference to just what the hell happened to the dragons known to have been in Westeros during the Age of Heros.  Eliminating the "fire" dragons nearest to you might be prudent if you're made of ice.  Just a thought anyway. :)

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Hey there DinoKiller ;), lovely post you've penned here. I tend to agree that even the existence of a constellation or folktale reference to a thing indicates that the idea came from somewhere. I'm willing to accept that perhaps these ice spiders became remembered as dragons somehow, but I also think there may have been cold dragons, either ice dragons or wighted dragons, as you suggest. It's also sometimes used as a saying - Jon thinks to himself that the tunnel under the Wall at Castle Black is cold as the belly of an Ice Dragon. 

Coming from a different angle, I think it's clear George is more fascinated with team Ice, and I don't see any way he doesn't get the ice dragon in there somewhere. It's going to make an appearance, at least I've always thought so. 

Technically, some of the tales say the blue star represents the rider's eye, and some the dragon's eye. Fwiw. 

Have you checked out the battle over the Gods Eye between Aemon One Eye and Daemon Targaryen in TPATQ? Aemond has a star sapphire in one eye, and he's riding a dragon. Might be a clue in there for you if you take a look. :)

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Hey there DinoKiller ;), lovely post you've penned here. I tend to agree that even the existence of a constellation or folktale reference to a thing indicates that the idea came from somewhere. I'm willing to accept that perhaps these ice spiders became remembered as dragons somehow, but I also think there may have been cold dragons, either ice dragons or wighted dragons, as you suggest. It's also sometimes used as a saying - Jon thinks to himself that the tunnel under the Wall at Castle Black is cold as the belly of an Ice Dragon. 

Coming from a different angle, I think it's clear George is more fascinated with team Ice, and I don't see any way he doesn't get the ice dragon in there somewhere. It's going to make an appearance, at least I've always thought so. 

Technically, some of the tales say the blue star represents the rider's eye, and some the dragon's eye. Fwiw. 

Have you checked out the battle over the Gods Eye between Aemon One Eye and Daemon Targaryen in TPATQ? Aemond has a star sapphire in one eye, and he's riding a dragon. Might be a clue in there for you if you take a look. :)

Hello again my good man!  

I haven't had a chance to read TPATQ yet.  I read somewhere that there's a full length version of that story that's going to be released soon.  Is that true, or should I not bother waiting for it?

I'll be happy to check it out either way!

EDIT:  You make a really good point about the blue eye references of the dragons as well.  Given GRRM's love of drawing parallels, it stands to reason that if the Others are a different kind of life, then maybe only a certain caste commands magic, like their human counterparts.  And if that is a parallel, then maybe these magical Others can control an elemental being of fantastic power that is the same kind of life as them, a cold drake.

 

The problem with an Ice dragon is that we know humans win.  In most if not all works of fiction that involve dragons ice dragons> fire dragons, and that includes GRRM's own work.  TWOIAF also mentions them being many times the size of fire dragons.  I just don't see how humans win in that circumstance.

That's the beauty of it though.  On the face of things, it appears as though Dany's dragons will ride roughshod over the Others with little effort.  One cold drake could provide a wonderful check and balance to Dany's pet lizards in the Battle for the Dawn.  It'd be kind of a lame story if she just shows up, melts everyone and the fight is over IMO.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

EDIT:  You make a really good point about the blue eye references of the dragons as well.  Given GRRM's love of drawing parallels, it stands to reason that if the Others are a different kind of life, then maybe only a certain caste commands magic, like their human counterparts.  And if that is a parallel, then maybe these magical Others can control an elemental being of fantastic power that is the same kind of life as them, a cold drake.

You've just added to my personal Others crackpot! Thanks!

I've already convinced myself that they're all separated in Old Nan's story for a reason - wights=undead, killed by fire; White Walkers=created (not born); killed by dragonglass/obsidian; and the Others=just 'exist' (like humans), killed by dragonsteel.  Your caste idea has me thinking that maybe the White Walkers are the "warrior" caste with no magic created by the magical ruling caste of the Others.  

 

And I'm definitely of the same opinion as LmL - constellations come from somewhere/something important.  They aren't made up out of whole cloth - people see important cultural truths in the stars.  "As above, so below." 

I wouldn't be surprised if ice spiders became ice dragons after the people became more familiar with "real" dragons (I'm thinking it would be Valyria's rise to power with dragons that would cause massive cultural shifts, making people fear dragons more than spiders...creating a cultural shift from seeing that constellation as an Other riding an ice spider to a dragon with a rider).  Or maybe there are ice dragons *and* ice spiders - that wouldn't surprise me either!

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 This seems to be a given at this point, even if they are thought of by theThe interesting part in this to me is the process by which constellations come to exist. In many situations, the same asterism (a group of stars) can be called several different things in as many different cultures may view it, or might in fact be parts of two completely different constellations to some cultures.  These groupings of stars are often named according to cultural memories relevant to the people who experienced them and who are now viewing said asterism.  What is being experienced here by our characters is an asterism that has become a constellation known as the Ice Dragon, whose rider has a bright blue eye pointing due North.  This constellation is known is Westeros, where the Long Night left a powerful, powerful cultural scar that has spanned the collective memory of the continent for eight thousand years.

I love your idea. I do want to make one clarification, though. An asterism is a group of stars with their own name/identity inside a larger constellation. For example, the Little Dipper is an asterism in Ursa Minor and the Great Dipper is an asterism in the constellation Ursa Major. The Sickle is a part of Leo, and the Teapot is an asterism in the constellation Sagittarius.

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I love your idea. I do want to make one clarification, though. An asterism is a group of stars with their own name/identity inside a larger constellation. For example, the Little Dipper is an asterism in Ursa Minor and the Great Dipper is an asterism in the constellation Ursa Major. The Sickle is a part of Leo, and the Teapot is an asterism in the constellation Sagittarius.

That's why it's always great to have a science teacher around!

Thanks, science teacher!

I kid but I mean it. And you're quite correct! 

Did you know that there was supposed to be a Westerosi star map in TWOAIF, with George's constellations on it, but that it got cut near the end? What I wouldn't give... I think George is basically working with the same sky but repurposing constellations. I think the Shadowcat is Leo, the Moon Maiden, Astrea / Virgo, etc. That would have been fun to see. 

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That's why it's always great to have a science teacher around!

Thanks, science teacher!

I kid but I mean it. And you're quite correct! 

Did you know that there was supposed to be a Westerosi star map in TWOAIF, with George's constellations on it, but that it got cut near the end? What I wouldn't give... I think George is basically working with the same sky but repurposing constellations. I think the Shadowcat is Leo, the Moon Maiden, Astrea / Virgo, etc. That would have been fun to see. 

I would so like to see a star map for the series. I spent an afternoon once trying to assign correlations from George's constellations to Earth-view constellations. I think I was favoring The Great Panther for the Shadowcat and Virgo for the moonmaid, because it's often called Virgo the Maiden, but Leo works as well. Corona Borealis seems perfect for Jon's King's Crown/Ygrette's cradle, etc

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It's interesting that Corona Borealis is in the far norther sky, close to Draco and the pole star. The horned lord is northern figure, and I believe George has hidden a lot of mythology behind his horned lord ideas. I think the horned lords were really important in the ancient past, perhaps the ones who built the wall and called down the Hammer of the Waters. Finding it near the "Ice Dragon" makes a bit of sense to me. It's also interesting that if Cornon Borealis is a pair of horns, they are sitting on top of the head of constellation serpens. The horned snake? That's a dragon, my friends. And indeed, I believe Azor Ahai to be a horned lord. Very interesting, Science Teacher, thanks for pointing me at Cornona Borealis. 

Here's one for you: the Sword of the Morning. Orion, right? The great hunter? He's often depicted with a club over his head, which sounds like the sword in the SOTM constellation. The only problem is the white star in the hilt. Betelgeuse is an orange star, and the brightest one in Orion. Orion does hang in the south at sunrise, as Jon sees it in ASOS. Orion is often depicted as facing Taurus to do battle. Killing bulls is of course an important sacrificial act in many mythologies, but specifically in that of Mithras, who slays a white bull to be reborn. And here's the thing - the SOTM is, I believe, meant to be identified with the Last Hero. Jon, in turn, is shaping up to potentially be a new LH, and a new SOTM. So, the SOTM slaying a bull fits. 

I've actually got a long-delayed essay to write about the zodiacal constellations and Garth the Green. In TWOIAF, we are given 12 notable children of Garth (one is actually a pair of twins). These 12 children of Garth have the zodiacs encoded in them. Some are obvious - the twins, for example, and Bors the Bull - and some are more cryptic, but they are match. And I for one have long suspected the astronomical correlation of the Last Hero and his 12 companions refers to the zodiac in some way. All the zodiac constellations were supposedly placed in the heavens by Zeus because of their valiant deaths, all 12. So, I believe the leader of these twelve - the SOTM - should be a constellation that can be seen as ruling over the zodiac. Orion is a good fit, and he's even got a dog at his side like the LH. Ophiuchus has been swapped in to make 12, because libra and Virgo are combined to make one constellation, the moon maiden. That's where all the "fair maid" and "just maid" ideas are pointing - Virgo holds the scales of Libra - she's a "fair" and"just" maid. Libra is the only zodiac that is not an animal or person, so it makes a lousy son of Garth. Hence, Virgo and Libra are one, and Ophiuchus, the giant who wrestles serpents, would be John the Oak, founder of house Oakheart. He was a giant, and has a millennia long rivalry with Dorne, where we find the snake symbolism. 

When I type that one up I will send you a message so you can take a look. :)

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The problem with an Ice dragon is that we know humans win.  In most if not all works of fiction that involve dragons ice dragons> fire dragons, and that includes GRRM's own work.  TWOIAF also mentions them being many times the size of fire dragons.  I just don't see how humans win in that circumstance.

There is no real problem, except perception. Not everything in the world book is literal, some of it is symbolic, some of it are direct homages to other works. Like Elric and the Ice Dragon. Ice and Fire have a repetitive theme in the series, weather symbolic or literal, the battle over the Gods eye end in water, Sunfyre and Moondancer end in water, Dany on the trident ended in water, and the Ice dragon who fought the 3 dragons of the south ended in water. Water is a third magical element in this world though it is missing, it would seem at times it has either been overwhelmed by ice or fire at some point, and that always created an imbalance weather it was the long night or the rise of the Valyrians. In the series a Pearl is both symblic of a child and water, and water has always been symbolic of life which fits the idea of a child. The womb of the world, the Pearl emperor, Dany's dress on her wedding day a pearl to represent all her children. The battle of Ice and Fire should be a return of the time of water and life, of spring and children.

Does a Lion of night once again seek the maiden made of light? A queen of light and a King of Night. I personally think King Cray Cray of the night wants a new bride and he only sees one who deems worthy. Winter Kings, Summer Queens and Children of spring, life vs. death, ice vs. fire, light vs. night,  "

“Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."
"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled.”

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I love your idea. I do want to make one clarification, though. An asterism is a group of stars with their own name/identity inside a larger constellation. For example, the Little Dipper is an asterism in Ursa Minor and the Great Dipper is an asterism in the constellation Ursa Major. The Sickle is a part of Leo, and the Teapot is an asterism in the constellation Sagittarius.

Well yes, you are correct lol.

One must consider the use of the word.  In our modern society, an asterism is pretty cut and dry in meaning.  I was attempting to use the word in a colloquial sense to explain how stars could be viewed in a non-IAU governed firmament differently in different cultures.  One culture's constellation on Planetos could easily be another culture's asterism.

"In astronomy, an asterism is a pattern of stars recognized in the Earth's night sky. It may be part of an official constellation or it may be composed of stars from more than one constellation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(astronomy)

If there's a better word for what I'm trying to express, I'd love to know it.  Astronomy is an interest of mine, but my education is in biology so I'm very much a laymen in this field. 

 

It's interesting that Corona Borealis is in the far norther sky, close to Draco and the pole star. The horned lord is northern figure, and I believe George has hidden a lot of mythology behind his horned lord ideas. I think the horned lords were really important in the ancient past, perhaps the ones who built the wall and called down the Hammer of the Waters. Finding it near the "Ice Dragon" makes a bit of sense to me. It's also interesting that if Cornon Borealis is a pair of horns, they are sitting on top of the head of constellation serpens. The horned snake? That's a dragon, my friends. And indeed, I believe Azor Ahai to be a horned lord. Very interesting, Science Teacher, thanks for pointing me at Cornona Borealis. 

Here's one for you: the Sword of the Morning. Orion, right? The great hunter? He's often depicted with a club over his head, which sounds like the sword in the SOTM constellation. The only problem is the white star in the hilt. Betelgeuse is an orange star, and the brightest one in Orion. Orion does hang in the south at sunrise, as Jon sees it in ASOS. Orion is often depicted as facing Taurus to do battle. Killing bulls is of course an important sacrificial act in many mythologies, but specifically in that of Mithras, who slays a white bull to be reborn. And here's the thing - the SOTM is, I believe, meant to be identified with the Last Hero. Jon, in turn, is shaping up to potentially be a new LH, and a new SOTM. So, the SOTM slaying a bull fits. 

I've actually got a long-delayed essay to write about the zodiacal constellations and Garth the Green. In TWOIAF, we are given 12 notable children of Garth (one is actually a pair of twins). These 12 children of Garth have the zodiacs encoded in them. Some are obvious - the twins, for example, and Bors the Bull - and some are more cryptic, but they are match. And I for one have long suspected the astronomical correlation of the Last Hero and his 12 companions refers to the zodiac in some way. All the zodiac constellations were supposedly placed in the heavens by Zeus because of their valiant deaths, all 12. So, I believe the leader of these twelve - the SOTM - should be a constellation that can be seen as ruling over the zodiac. Orion is a good fit, and he's even got a dog at his side like the LH. Ophiuchus has been swapped in to make 12, because libra and Virgo are combined to make one constellation, the moon maiden. That's where all the "fair maid" and "just maid" ideas are pointing - Virgo holds the scales of Libra - she's a "fair" and"just" maid. Libra is the only zodiac that is not an animal or person, so it makes a lousy son of Garth. Hence, Virgo and Libra are one, and Ophiuchus, the giant who wrestles serpents, would be John the Oak, founder of house Oakheart. He was a giant, and has a millennia long rivalry with Dorne, where we find the snake symbolism. 

When I type that one up I will send you a message so you can take a look. :)

As usual LML, you're working very hard to convince me that "LML" is in fact GRRM's chosen screen name on the forums.  ;)  The way you draw these connections is both staggering in its complexity and detail.  I think in the next book, (if you're not already writing it anyway, that is), you should probably be helping Linda and Ran with the mythos of the story.

Anyway though, the only issue that I have with transposing Planetos culture onto Earth's skies is the "bright blue eye" that points due north.  Then, upon thinking about it, I remembered that roughly every 13,000 years Vega is our north star, and to most people, it is distinctly bluish.  This actually makes quite a bit of sense when you consider that Lyra is positioned right at the head of Draco. The same effect that is responsible for this is the axial procession that we discussed in that one thread on the Long Night by DD.  Might be something to consider when you think about this idea; I dunno if it'll help things fit together or not.

 

There is no real problem, except perception. Not everything in the world book is literal, some of it is symbolic, some of it are direct homages to other works. Like Elric and the Ice Dragon. Ice and Fire have a repetitive theme in the series, weather symbolic or literal, the battle over the Gods eye end in water, Sunfyre and Moondancer end in water, Dany on the trident ended in water, and the Ice dragon who fought the 3 dragons of the south ended in water. Water is a third magical element in this world though it is missing, it would seem at times it has either been overwhelmed by ice or fire at some point, and that always created an imbalance weather it was the long night or the rise of the Valyrians. In the series a Pearl is both symblic of a child and water, and water has always been symbolic of life which fits the idea of a child. The womb of the world, the Pearl emperor, Dany's dress on her wedding day a pearl to represent all her children. The battle of Ice and Fire should be a return of the time of water and life, of spring and children.

Does a Lion of night once again seek the maiden made of light? A queen of light and a King of Night. I personally think King Cray Cray of the night wants a new bride and he only sees one who deems worthy. Winter Kings, Summer Queens and Children of spring, life vs. death, ice vs. fire, light vs. night,  "

“Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."
"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled.”

I've always thought that water and ice magics were essentially the same, when you consider the four basic traditional magical elements: earth, wind, water and fire.  Ice and water are nothing more than different states of the same element.  In the books, particularly the world book, it is strongly hinted that the so called Deep Ones and the Others are very similar in both their aggression toward terrestrial 'warm' life and their appearance.  Take for example the black tailed mermaids with bright blue eyes.  While the Deep Ones and the Others may not be aligned per say, they definitely seem to be cut from the same mold.

There are also the children who are apparently the earth element beings.  These guys' main claim to fame is the Hammer of the Waters, where they flood various regions of Planetos.  I posit that they're not actually doing anything with water or water magic, but BREAKING the Earth to allow water to flow in, a la the Broken Arm.

Then for fire magic we have Dragons, Rhollor, the Red Priests and their Kiss of Life.  Not much explaining is needed there.

Finally, there IS a mention of air magic in the books.  In the World Book's section on Asshai, when listing the dark powers that practice freely there, GRRM specifically included "aeromancers".  

Granted, this elemental magic idea of mine is still not even half baked, but I think that I may be on to something.  Unfortunately though, I don't have much free time to devote to such intellectual pursuits (much to my chagrin).  As a matter of fact, in that vein, I have to be up for work in about five hours.  Catch you all later!

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Well yes, you are correct lol.

One must consider the use of the word.  In our modern society, an asterism is pretty cut and dry in meaning.  I was attempting to use the word in a colloquial sense to explain how stars could be viewed in a non-IAU governed firmament differently in different cultures.  One culture's constellation on Planetos could easily be another culture's asterism.

"In astronomy, an asterism is a pattern of stars recognized in the Earth's night sky. It may be part of an official constellation or it may be composed of stars from more than one constellation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(astronomy)

If there's a better word for what I'm trying to express, I'd love to know it.  Astronomy is an interest of mine, but my education is in biology so I'm very much a laymen in this field. 

I apologize if I made you feel that I thought you didn't know the difference between an asterism and a constellation. My concern was this part of your original post: "What is being experienced here by our characters is an asterism that has become a constellation known as the Ice Dragon, whose rider has a bright blue eye pointing due North." I felt it might confuse others into thinking asterisms were somehow sub-par or that they were added onto to become constellations.

As to a better  way to express it, it might just be easiest to say they had "a constellation called the Ice Dragon whose rider has a bright blue eye pointing due North."

We really don't know when that name/constellation came about in Westeros--it could have been there "always", could have been an older constellation renamed, it could be redesigned from several asterisms or parts of a couple of other constellations.

Even in our IAU world, the names of constellations change over time --and at any one time, different cultures use different names colloquially. The Babylonians used the same stars we do for Arcturus, Orion and the Pleiades, but they called them the bier, the fool, and the heap. As most folks know, it's not that any particular group of stars is physically joined together. We only group them into constellations so we can remember where to find certain stars in the sky. We associate them with famous people and stories to make them easier to remember.

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As usual LML, you're working very hard to convince me that "LML" is in fact GRRM's chosen screen name on the forums.  ;)  The way you draw these connections is both staggering in its complexity and detail.  I think in the next book, (if you're not already writing it anyway, that is), you should probably be helping Linda and Ran with the mythos of the story.

Anyway though, the only issue that I have with transposing Planetos culture onto Earth's skies is the "bright blue eye" that points due north.  Then, upon thinking about it, I remembered that roughly every 13,000 years Vega is our north star, and to most people, it is distinctly bluish.  This actually makes quite a bit of sense when you consider that Lyra is positioned right at the head of Draco. The same effect that is responsible for this is the axial procession that we discussed in that one thread on the Long Night by DD.  Might be something to consider when you think about this idea; I dunno if it'll help things fit together or not.

 

Vega is part of Lyra - the lyre. That's RHAEGAR'S HARP, baby. The ice harp. Haha. 

Kidding aside, the Greeks saw it as the harp of Orpheus, who is associated with prophecy and oracle. That fits with Rhaegar's harp related Apollo imagery as well. If I were to speculate, it's possible the eye of the ice dragon being Vega - which I like a lot, because I think George is working with Atlantis ideas, and Atlantis was (according to fable) destroyed in 9,600 BCE - might give us a clue about the connection between ice and fire magic. We have all these dragon and fire people coming to the Wall and the North, clearly something is up with that. Some think ice and fire magic both flow from green magic, which I like also. 

Of course he could just be generalizing or bending - Draco is a North Pole dragon, so it's the ice dragon. The bright blue star in the eye suits his purposes, it doesn't have to be a real star. It he could be imagining Vega in the dragon because the mythology matches. That works too. 

The name Wega[9] (later Vega) comes from a loose transliteration of the Arabic word wāqi‘ meaning "falling" or "landing", via the phrase an-nasr al-wāqi‘, "the falling eagle".[87] The term "Al Nesr al Waki" appeared in the Al Achsasi al Mouakket star catalogue and was translated into Latin as Vultur Cadens, "the falling eagle/vulture".[88][note 6] The constellation was represented as a vulture in ancient Egypt,[89] and as an eagle or vulture in ancient India.[90][91] The Arabic name then appeared in the western world in the Alfonsine Tables,[92] which were drawn up between 1215 and 1270 by order of Alfonso X.[93] Medieval astrolabes of England and Western Europe used the names Wega and Alvaca, and depicted it and Altair as birds.[94]

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On one level, I am convinced that the blue eyed rider of the ice dragon in the constellation was intended as reference to Adara, the blue eyed rider of the ice dragon in Martin's short story The Ice Dragon. While definitely not canon, that story was definitely a vehicle where Martin was experimenting with his idea of magical creatures made of ice, and the description of the ice dragon itself and the ice lizards that Adara plays with on her father's farm match the physical description of the Others very closely. The description of how the cold that killed her mother during childbirth got into and transformed Adara prefigures the transformation of Craster's boys generally and likely the Night's Queen. I don't know if that means we will see ice dragons.

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On one level, I am convinced that the blue eyed rider of the ice dragon in the constellation was intended as reference to Adara, the blue eyed rider of the ice dragon in Martin's short story The Ice Dragon. While definitely not canon, that story was definitely a vehicle where Martin was experimenting with his idea of magical creatures made of ice, and the description of the ice dragon itself and the ice lizards that Adara plays with on her father's farm match the physical description of the Others very closely. The description of how the cold that killed her mother during childbirth got into and transformed Adara prefigures the transformation of Craster's boys generally and likely the Night's Queen. I don't know if that means we will see ice dragons.

Even before that, in another short story way before AGOT, he had the north pole constellation called the "Ice Wagon" which has a blue star. The ice wagon carries the sea tot he afterlife in that story. 

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I've got a crackpot theory that just as Valyrians are humans mixed with dragon genes, the Others are humans mixed with ice dragon genes. And you just added a nice piece of evidence in support of it. Thanks!

Don't use westeros.org's search function. Instead, type your search into google and follow it with "site:westeros.org"

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Hey there DinoKiller ;), lovely post you've penned here. I tend to agree that even the existence of a constellation or folktale reference to a thing indicates that the idea came from somewhere. I'm willing to accept that perhaps these ice spiders became remembered as dragons somehow, but I also think there may have been cold dragons, either ice dragons or wighted dragons, as you suggest. It's also sometimes used as a saying - Jon thinks to himself that the tunnel under the Wall at Castle Black is cold as the belly of an Ice Dragon. 

Coming from a different angle, I think it's clear George is more fascinated with team Ice, and I don't see any way he doesn't get the ice dragon in there somewhere. It's going to make an appearance, at least I've always thought so. 

Technically, some of the tales say the blue star represents the rider's eye, and some the dragon's eye. Fwiw. 

Have you checked out the battle over the Gods Eye between Aemon One Eye and Daemon Targaryen in TPATQ? Aemond has a star sapphire in one eye, and he's riding a dragon. Might be a clue in there for you if you take a look. :)

Late to the party again, but but but...

I haven't read the whole thread but this is fascinating. Have you guys considered Rigel (Beta Orionis)? It's the bright blue star that is Orion's right foot. 

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Even before that, in another short story way before AGOT, he had the north pole constellation called the "Ice Wagon" which has a blue star. The ice wagon carries the sea tot he afterlife in that story. 

You mean The Wain? That's another known constellation--Ursa Major or the Great Bear, which is of course the She Bear and it points to the pole star. In our world, Zwicky 18 in the Great Bear is the youngest galaxy in the known universe and home to a region of young, hot blue stars. 

You guys mentioned Draco earlier. Draco (Thuban) was the pole star until around 1900 BC. In fact, the shafts of the Great Pyramid were aligned to it rather than Polaris. 

Now, are you familiar with the Royal Stars? 

Aldebaran--the Watcher of the East (vernal equinox, Taurus)

Regulus--Watcher of the South (summer solstice, Leo)

Antares--Watcher of the West (autumnal equinox, Scorpio)

Fomalhaut--Watcher of the North (winter solstice, Piscis) 

Substitute "Warden" for "Watcher". That could be interesting. 

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