Is it bad that I understand and accept Cersei and Jaime's relationship?

[Nissa]

On 12/8/2015 at 3:36 AM, ASOIAF_Ali said:

I'll admit it, the incest between Jaime and Cersei never really bothered me. I'm not bothered by a lot in fiction at all, if it happened in real life, that would be an entirely different matter though.

I totally agree. I don't typically cast judgement on fictional characters. I try not to in real life either. I also agree with a lot of the above posts that point out that the incest is not the biggest problem with their 'relationship'. there's a lot of manipulation and victimization going on with both of them. Incest aside it is not a healthy relationship. If we want to analyze the situation it would be the same old combination of a terrible childhood and terrible choices made independent of that upbringing. I don't see it as love at all. I see it as obsession and vanity on both of their parts. The only thing Jamie thinks about for a lot of the first few books is how he wants to have sex with cersei. That's not all love is. The fact that cersei doesn't want him any more after he lost his hand or value him as a human being brings this to light. Eventually she wants him when she's in trouble. Culturally I can understand the incest as they both rationalize because of the targaryans. If that makes any sense. 

[Nissa]

On 4/27/2016 at 3:22 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

This relationships only purpose is to kickstart war in Westeros

Oh and this too.

[talvikorppi]

54 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Ironically they [Jaime and Ser Hyle Hunt] have a lot in common with their relationships with Brienne: snarking at her, mocking her for her ugliness, disparaging her, slowly going to respect her, siding with her, becoming seemingly attracted to her to some degree. That's among the reasons I suspect that Jaime might kick the bucket and leave Brienne to marry Hunt after that.

But that's OT.

 

I can't help but continue this OT a bit because I have a soft spot for Ser Hyle.

He was part of that despicaple Highgarden wager (=who'd claim Brienne's maidenhead) and that's why Brienne distrusts and dislikes him. But what did he do in Highgarden? IIRC, he brought treats to her horse and was nice to her (and the horse). Quite innocent and innocous compared to some of the others. Has a plain, honest face. Bit of a nonentity, really. Certainly not like the more flamboyant "suitors".

After they meet again in Maidenpool, he's actually helping her, and getting to know her better. He didn't intercede in her fight against the Bloody Mummers in the Whispers - he's a bit of a craven - but he gave credit where it's due and actually stood up for her against Randyll Tarly back in Maidenpool, and then "left" Randyll Tarly's service. (Sacked?)

His motives might've been mercenary - follow Brienne, find Sansa and take her to the Queen - in the beginning but he gets to know and respect Brienne as a person, not just an object of a crude wager, or a freakish woman. I think he was very honest when he proposed marriage. Ugly, freaky wench like Brienne can't expect many honest suitors, she's an heiress. He'd quite like the lands and titles, but he'd be good to her, he likes her. He probably would be a good husband to her, he seems like a decent enough fellow, and he's learned what an awesome fighter Brienne is, he's learned respect for her (though he still gets a bit macho.) The problem is, he's not a patch on Jaime. Anything Ser Hyle is, good or bad, Jaime is twofold or fivefold or whatever, and Brienne secretly likes her bad boy. Even has dreams about him.

Brienne and Jaime would be the perfect match, but Jaime will not survive the series. If Brienne does (and I doubt it), Ser Hyle could be a good "second best" match. Ser Hyle would get lands and titles beyond his dreams, and Lady Brienne would get a husband who actually knows and respects her fighting prowess and wants to treat her kindly. IDK, shrug.

[norwaywolf123]

22 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I can't help but continue this OT a bit because I have a soft spot for Ser Hyle.

He was part of that despicaple Highgarden wager (=who'd claim Brienne's maidenhead) and that's why Brienne distrusts and dislikes him. But what did he do in Highgarden? IIRC, he brought treats to her horse and was nice to her (and the horse). Quite innocent and innocous compared to some of the others. Has a plain, honest face. Bit of a nonentity, really. Certainly not like the more flamboyant "suitors".

After they meet again in Maidenpool, he's actually helping her, and getting to know her better. He didn't intercede in her fight against the Bloody Mummers in the Whispers - he's a bit of a craven - but he gave credit where it's due and actually stood up for her against Randyll Tarly back in Maidenpool, and then "left" Randyll Tarly's service. (Sacked?)

His motives might've been mercenary - follow Brienne, find Sansa and take her to the Queen - in the beginning but he gets to know and respect Brienne as a person, not just an object of a crude wager, or a freakish woman. I think he was very honest when he proposed marriage. Ugly, freaky wench like Brienne can't expect many honest suitors, she's an heiress. He'd quite like the lands and titles, but he'd be good to her, he likes her. He probably would be a good husband to her, he seems like a decent enough fellow, and he's learned what an awesome fighter Brienne is, he's learned respect for her (though he still gets a bit macho.) The problem is, he's not a patch on Jaime. Anything Ser Hyle is, good or bad, Jaime is twofold or fivefold or whatever, and Brienne secretly likes her bad boy. Even has dreams about him.

Brienne and Jaime would be the perfect match, but Jaime will not survive the series. If Brienne does (and I doubt it), Ser Hyle could be a good "second best" match. Ser Hyle would get lands and titles beyond his dreams, and Lady Brienne would get a husband who actually knows and respects her fighting prowess and wants to treat her kindly. IDK, shrug.

Perhaps Brienne and Jaime will have a little one? I wonder what Barristan the Bold would think about the Kingslayer and Maid of Tarths baby?

[talvikorppi]

11 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Perhaps Brienne and Jaime will have a little one? I wonder what Barristan the Bold would think about the Kingslayer and Maid of Tarths baby?

I don't want Brienne to have a bastard baby. I doubt Jaime would put her in that position, he respects any woman too much, let alone Brienne. Aside from his dysfunctional relationship with Cersei (and the resulting bastards), he's a very chaste man. Pia tried to seduce him twice but he turned her down both times. The second time he turns her (a camp follower = whore by this time) over to his squire Peck and tells him to treat her well. He's almost a feminist!

The only way I can envision Jaime and Brienne having sex before marriage is the end of the world and they both think they're going to die. Honour is a bit pointless by then.

I don't understand your reference to Barristan the Bold, care to elaborate?

I have a fanfic in my mind that they both survive and get married and breed lots of babies who become tall, strong, honourable and awesome fighters. I don't think it very likely.

 

[talvikorppi]

2 hours ago, Nissa said:

<snip>... The only thing Jamie thinks about for a lot of the first few books is how he wants to have sex with cersei. That's not all love is. The fact that cersei doesn't want him any more after he lost his hand or value him as a human being brings this to light. Eventually she wants him when she's in trouble. Culturally I can understand the incest as they both rationalize because of the targaryans. If that makes any sense. 

We don't actually know what he thinks during the first two books because he's not a POV character. He is a POV character in the third book, and he seems intent on getting back to Cersei, even the wind in his hair feels like Cersei's fingers, romantic or what?

It all just goes sour. As far as we know, the last time Jaime and Cersei had sex was on the very day he got back to KL, a desperate attempt to capture how it used to be. Since then, she's rejected him, mocked and taunted him, and the one time she tried it on, he rejected her because he realised she just wated something of him and it was the wrong place (Jaime's holy sanctuary of the KG White Sword Tower).

I don't think Jaime's and Cersei's relationship is actually very sexual. Yes, sex plays a part, but the old twin bond is more important. Sex came into it later, as a way for Cersei to manipulate Jaime. Neither of them seem very sexual/sensual/whatevs as such. Cersei only has sex with multiple men to make them do her bidding, it's not like she enjoys the actual acts, and Jaime, of course, has never had sex with anybody but Cersei. Most high-born red-blooded young men would be expected to sow their wild oats among the smallfolk. Not Jaime. Honourable in that way, even if it's because to his fidelity to his sister.

[RoamingRonin]

If they want to bone each other, fine. They are two consenting adults. So... whatever.

My issue with their relationship is all the things they do to conceal it. Cersei has placed her bastard brood in the line of succession. She aborted Robert's child simply because she couldn't bear the thought of having his child. Jaime threw Bran from a window. The list goes on...

These are products of their union and I can't support them.

[Tianzi]

14 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

She aborted Robert's child simply because she couldn't bear the thought of having his child.

And he probably planted it in her by force.
 

[Nissa]

6 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

We don't actually know what he thinks during the first two books because he's not a POV character. He is a POV character in the third book, and he seems intent on getting back to Cersei, even the wind in his hair feels like Cersei's fingers, romantic or what?

It all just goes sour. As far as we know, the last time Jaime and Cersei had sex was on the very day he got back to KL, a desperate attempt to capture how it used to be. Since then, she's rejected him, mocked and taunted him, and the one time she tried it on, he rejected her because he realised she just wated something of him and it was the wrong place (Jaime's holy sanctuary of the KG White Sword Tower).

I don't think Jaime's and Cersei's relationship is actually very sexual. Yes, sex plays a part, but the old twin bond is more important. Sex came into it later, as a way for Cersei to manipulate Jaime. Neither of them seem very sexual/sensual/whatevs as such. Cersei only has sex with multiple men to make them do her bidding, it's not like she enjoys the actual acts, and Jaime, of course, has never had sex with anybody but Cersei. Most high-born red-blooded young men would be expected to sow their wild oats among the smallfolk. Not Jaime. Honourable in that way, even if it's because to his fidelity to his sister.

i have only read the series once (I'm a recent reader) I'm going off my memory and my own interpretation more so than cold hard facts. I seem to recall thinking "ok Jamie I get it you're obsessed with cersei"  and I do remember a snip it of Johanna being shocked at what they were doing when they were kids and she separated them. So if Johanna was I've i got the impression it started at a pretty young age