Heresy Project X+Y=J: Rhaegar + Lyanna

[Sly Wren]

Did he say that? I don't remember that phrase.It doesn't come across like sarcasm when the quote is read:

"Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak," 

Oh, no--sorry. Rhaegar didn't say that. I meant that's what was happening. The rebellion is at full force. Heading for a massive battle at the Trident that Rhaegar is leaving for. Cousin Robert is trying to kill Rhaegar and his father. Calling him "our cousin Robert" is an odd thing when he's trying to kill you. Seems like it's likely to be sarcastic. Or perhaps just wry.

[IceFire125]

If its a hunch its a hunch i can't mount an arguement against someone's hunch so we'll se how that turns out.

That's odd, I could've known, it could directed at you and your various hunches or "interpretations" as well, right?? Unless you disagree that your opinions does not drive your beliefs, thus you have your respective "hunch".

To which we could point to the severity all of these "heresy" threads???

Oh, no--sorry. Rhaegar didn't say that. I meant that's what was happening. The rebellion is at full force. Heading for a massive battle at the Trident that Rhaegar is leaving for. Cousin Robert is trying to kill Rhaegar and his father. Calling him "our cousin Robert" is an odd thing when he's trying to kill you. Seems like it's likely to be sarcastic. Or perhaps just wry.

Did Rhaegar specifically knew that Robert wanted to kill him or his Father??? I think Rhaegar was ignorant of the pure hatred by Robert, but he was not ignorant that the rebellion would cost his Father the crown.

I'm of the belief, Rhaegar wanted to win the battle at the Trident with his massive army and win the war in the process.  He was not planning to go to another battle after the Trident.  After winning he meant to return and call a Council.  This leads to his motivation that at the Council he will remove his Father from the Iron Throne at the condition that the war has ended with the rebel Lords and risk that the majority of the Lords in Westeros will vote for him to be the next king.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

That's odd, I could've known, it could directed at you and your various hunches or "interpretations" as well, right?? Unless you disagree that your opinions does not drive your beliefs, thus you have your respective "hunch".

To which we could point to the severity all of these "heresy" threads???

 

 

Run that by me again!!

[LmL]

You already know my interp of the nightmare battle, so I won't bore you with it here. 

But on the scene above: Jon is noting the red light from the sun is going out. Then thinking that Mel will light her first, pray for the Lord of Light to deal with the lack of sun, the rising blackness. 

But Jon rejects that fire. "The Wall is where we stop them." Not fire--he's saying this in response to her fires. Her perpetual fires with repeated kings and dragons "dragons again," he thinks. Almost able to see them, she talks about them so often. But here, he's choosing the Wall. Not thinking the fires will help. . . 

@Pretty Pig was arguing that Jon sometimes rejects fire for cold. We'd need her to elaborate on her evidence. But this seems to be one of those moments. Same with Jon's repulsion to Craster. Yes, everyone says it's warmer in that horrible keep, but Jon sees the fire as smoky. He goes outside instead and is rewarded. Ghost gets him rabbits--a better dinner than any of his black brothers get. And when he wakes in the morning--yes, it's my favorite ice is magic moment.

Just saying: the specific contexts of the red and black imagery with the Wall you give above seem tied to the pattern of Jon's choosing the Wall. Choosing the ice to fight the Others--ice to fight ice. . . 

No, I think you're wrong here, because the NW wields fire. They do it in real life, on the Fist, and they do it Jon's dream. The Wall is where we stop them... with fire. There is no rejection of Mel or her fire in this passage - you're reading that into it, it isn't there. In the cracks in the ice, where we saw the blue rose, we now see red fire and black ice. And in Jon's dream, the same combination. Since most people interpret the blue rose as a symbol of Jon's legacy through Lyanna, it's reasonable to propose that the red fire and black ice represent Jon in some way, and I think the burning red sword makes it clear this has something to do with Azor Ahai, and thus, fire magic. Jon isn't going to reject fire magic - he's going to temper it with ice. He's going to harmonize ice and fire. That's what Rhaegar was doing when he impregnated Lyanna, symbolically - he was putting his fiery dragon seed into an icy sheath. That's how I see Jon, "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath." The black icy sheath - his black ice armor. But holding a burning red sword. Ice and fire, working in unison. To me, that can only be explained by RLJ. 

[Sly Wren]

Did Rhaegar specifically knew that Robert wanted to kill him or his Father??? I think Rhaegar was ignorant of the pure hatred by Robert, but he was not ignorant that the rebellion would cost his Father the crown.

But I'm also assuming Rhaegar knew that Robert and his allies weren't launching the rebellion for fun. We don't know where Rhaegar was when Brandon rode to the Red Keep. But he did call for Rhaegar to come out and die. Seems like that might have gotten back to Rhaegar at some point.

The overall point: calling Robert "cousin" isn't because all is rosy. What exactly Rhaegar's thinking, Jaime doesn't give us. But I can't see how Rhaegar would think that this was just a family spat. . . 

I'm of the belief, Rhaegar wanted to win the battle at the Trident with his massive army and win the war in the process.  He was not planning to go to another battle after the Trident.  After winning he meant to return and call a Council.  This leads to his motivation that at the Council he will remove his Father from the Iron Throne at the condition that the war has ended with the rebel Lords and risk that the majority of the Lords in Westeros will vote for him to be the next king.

I agree. Seems like there's a good chance Rhaegar wanted to finish what he first intended--and then got sabotaged by Aerys somewhat at Harrenhal. Obviously we need to know more about all of that, but the rough outline. . . seems like Rhaegar was trying to reform/fix the realm. And I assume that's what he would have done had he won.

[Sly Wren]

No, I think you're wrong here, because the NW wields fire. They do it in real life, on the Fist, and they do it Jon's dream. The Wall is where we stop them... with fire.

Of course. But in the nightmare, even as Jon's calling for more flame, the fire backfires (couldn't resist--sorry). The black brothers are burning and falling off of the Wall.

There is no rejection of Mel or her fire in this passage - you're reading that into it, it isn't there. In the cracks in the ice, where we saw the blue rose, we now see red fire and black ice. And in Jon's dream, the same combination. Since most people interpret the blue rose as a symbol of Jon's legacy through Lyanna, it's reasonable to propose that the red fire and black ice represent Jon in some way, and I think the burning red sword makes it clear this has something to do with Azor Ahai, and thus, fire magic. Jon isn't going to reject fire magic - he's going to temper it with ice. He's going to harmonize ice and fire. That's what Rhaegar was doing when he impregnated Lyanna, symbolically - he was putting his fiery dragon seed into an icy sheath. That's how I see Jon, "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath." The black icy sheath - his black ice armor. But holding a burning red sword. Ice and fire, working in unison. To me, that can only be explained by RLJ. 

1. But in the passage, he's thinking "Mel's will be lighting her fires and praying." Next thought? "The Wall is where we'll stop them." Not the prayers and fires he's just been thinking about. It's not definitive, obviously. But it's a shift--prayers and fire? "The Wall." Seems like he's choosing the Wall. The Wall he saw in relation to a sword at dawn (you knew I was going here) after he allows himself to hope. And the world fills back up with color (vs. going into blackness in the quote you gave earlier). The color comes back at dawn with the sword and the Wall.

2. I agree the blue rose is key to understanding Jon. And as I was saying above: In the same novel where we get it confirmed that Rhaegar is the bard to the wolf-maid Lyanna, we're also told that the bard is not the lover of two other Stark maids. A pattern Martin keeps up in the next two novels. The Bard is involved. Like the Bael story, the taking of the rose maid is political. Mance is the leader of the lover, and (I think) helps the Stark rose maid escape (in a garbling of the original story). The Blue Bard and Marillion are both weapons wielded by others. But in all of the iterations--the bard isn't the lover.

3. As for the Azor Ahai--I made the mistake of misreading you the last time we got into this. Hopefully that won't happen again. But, in the novels, Jon only mentions a few facts about Azor Ahai. They include the sword. But not the blood violation or anything else.

Whereas if we read the dream as "everything old is new again"--the fight for the Wall turning into the Fight for the Dawn: then Jon is not fighting to usurp Winterfell. Killing Robb means something else. Same with Ygritte. The horrors are melding, but that dream is the Fight for the Dawn, dreamt in the Hour of the Wolf. 

And then that fits with the current (subject to change) pattern of the bard's not being the lover. 

[LmL]

Of course. But in the nightmare, even as Jon's calling for more flame, the fire backfires (couldn't resist--sorry). The black brothers are burning and falling off of the Wall.

1. But in the passage, he's thinking "Mel's will be lighting her fires and praying." Next thought? "The Wall is where we'll stop them." Not the prayers and fires he's just been thinking about. It's not definitive, obviously. But it's a shift--prayers and fire? "The Wall." Seems like he's choosing the Wall. The Wall he saw in relation to a sword at dawn (you knew I was going here) after he allows himself to hope. And the world fills back up with color (vs. going into blackness in the quote you gave earlier). The color comes back at dawn with the sword and the Wall.

2. I agree the blue rose is key to understanding Jon. And as I was saying above: In the same novel where we get it confirmed that Rhaegar is the bard to the wolf-maid Lyanna, we're also told that the bard is not the lover of two other Stark maids. A pattern Martin keeps up in the next two novels. The Bard is involved. Like the Bael story, the taking of the rose maid is political. Mance is the leader of the lover, and (I think) helps the Stark rose maid escape (in a garbling of the original story). The Blue Bard and Marillion are both weapons wielded by others. But in all of the iterations--the bard isn't the lover.

3. As for the Azor Ahai--I made the mistake of misreading you the last time we got into this. Hopefully that won't happen again. But, in the novels, Jon only mentions a few facts about Azor Ahai. They include the sword. But not the blood violation or anything else.

Whereas if we read the dream as "everything old is new again"--the fight for the Wall turning into the Fight for the Dawn: then Jon is not fighting to usurp Winterfell. Killing Robb means something else. Same with Ygritte. The horrors are melding, but that dream is the Fight for the Dawn, dreamt in the Hour of the Wolf. 

And then that fits with the current (subject to change) pattern of the bard's not being the lover. 

1.) Bael the Bard is most definitely the lover. True, Marillion isn't Sansa's lover - though he tries - but neither is Petyr, the abductor in Sansa's arc. I think you *might* be over interpreting the bard thing, but I see where you're coming from. Now if you could draw a parallel Ygritte and Arthur, you'd have something. 

2.) As for the dream, you're again over-interpreting, particularly with your ideas about Jons actions. Fact is, he does kill his sibling an declare himself the Lord of Winterfell, which is exactly, exactly what the BSE does. He kills his love with a red fire sword - exact match for Azor Ahai. You can say what you want about the meanings of the dream but it's a fact that he replays the actions of those two exactly, which makes sense if they are the same person as I propose. You can say he doesn't really mean to kill Robb or whatever, but in the dream, he kills Robb and declares himself Lord of Winterfell, and that has to be explained / dealt with. 

The NW wields fire, and thats not a bad thing. You can't break that connection - "fire, we should have remembered." The Others hate the touch of fire, and clearly the wights are quickly killed by fire. The NW MUST use fire. You need to stop with your idea that Jon is rejecting fire, because that's just not happening. There's nothing in the dream about rejecting Mel, there's no negative expression about it, there's no comparing the Wall to her fire as opposing or competing methods to stop the Others. It's just not there. You're seeing that because of your ideas about Dawn and Jon and all that, I think, but it is not there. It's not even implied. Jon is the fire that burns against the cold. I know you guys want anything other than RLJ to be true but you just can't strip the fire imagery from Jon. 

As an aside, the reason why the brothers on the Wall are scarecrow brothers who catch on fire... I think I know what that it. In addition to playing the Bloodstone Emperor role and Azor Ahai in his dream, he also acts like the Last Hero, fighting the strength of the North alone. All his friends have abandoned him - but he does have scarecrow brothers. Now, when the wights burn, they go up like "old straw or "old wood." Like old kindling. The scarecrow brothers do the same. When they NW brothers first make the scarecrows, they say they represent the brothers who are missing (some dead, some absent). I believe these scarecrow brothers represent the LH's 12 companions, who I have long suspected were resurrected skinchangers or greenseers, which is why they are the only companions to Last Hero Jon. I have also long thought Coldhands to be a resurrected skinchanger / greenseer, perhaps one of the LH's party. Undead people are impervious to cold and hunger, my thinking is, making CH types the perfect ones to go into the far north. Essentially, I see the original NW brothers as fire-wielding undead people. The scarecrow brothers burning on fire might not mean simply "fallen NW brother," but fire-magic-resurrected brothers. Or perhaps green magic ressurectees who can wild fire, or they resurrected with fire and ice, or all three as some propose for Jon. Too hard to say with any specificity, but the clues about the original NW being dead are plentiful, IMO. 

[wolfmaid7]

1.) Bael the Bard is nottcannot definitely the lover. True, Marillion isn't Sansa's lover - though he tries - but neither is Petyr, the abductor in Sansa's arc. I think you *might* be over interpreting the bard thing, but I see where you're coming from. Now if you could draw a parallel Ygritte and Arthur, you'd have something. 

2.) As for the dream, you're again over-interpreting, particularly with your ideas about Jons actions. Fact is, he does kill his sibling an declare himself the Lord of Winterfell, which is exactly, exactly what the BSE does. He kills his love with a red fire sword - exact match for Azor Ahai. You can say what you want about the meanings of the dream but it's a fact that he replays the actions of those two exactly, which makes sense if they are the same person as I propose. You can say he doesn't really mean to kill Robb or whatever, but in the dream, he kills Robb and declares himself Lord of Winterfell, and that has to be explained / dealt with. 

The NW wields fire, and thats not a bad thing. You can't break that connection - "fire, we should have remembered." The Others hate the touch of fire, and clearly the wights are quickly killed by fire. The NW MUST use fire. You need to stop with your idea that Jon is rejecting fire, because that's just not happening. There's nothing in the dream about rejecting Mel, there's no negative expression about it, there's no comparing the Wall to her fire as opposing or competing methods to stop the Others. It's just not there. You're seeing that because of your ideas about Dawn and Jon and all that, I think, but it is not there. It's not even implied. Jon is the fire that burns against the cold. I know you guys want anything other than RLJ to be true but you just can't strip the fire imagery from Jon. 

As an aside, the reason why the brothers on the Wall are scarecrow brothers who catch on fire... I think I know what that it. In addition to playing the Bloodstone Emperor role and Azor Ahai in his dream, he also acts like the Last Hero, fighting the strength of the North alone. All his friends have abandoned him - but he does have scarecrow brothers. Now, when the wights burn, they go up like "old straw or "old wood." Like old kindling. The scarecrow brothers do the same. When they NW brothers first make the scarecrows, they say they represent the brothers who are missing (some dead, some absent). I believe these scarecrow brothers represent the LH's 12 companions, who I have long suspected were resurrected skinchangers or greenseers, which is why they are the only companions to Last Hero Jon. I have also long thought Coldhands to be a resurrected skinchanger / greenseer, perhaps one of the LH's party. Undead people are impervious to cold and hunger, my thinking is, making CH types the perfect ones to go into the far north. Essentially, I see the original NW brothers as fire-wielding undead people. The scarecrow brothers burning on fire might not mean simply "fallen NW brother," but fire-magic-resurrected brothers. Or perhaps green magic ressurectees who can wild fire, or they resurrected with fire and ice, or all three as some propose for Jon. Too hard to say with any specificity, but the clues about the original NW being dead are plentiful, IMO. 

you are right Lml one cannot strip away the fire from Jon no more than we can strip away the ice signs from Dany but i think you are in err thinking that fire only equates Targs when it doesnt.Now is that to say RLJ is excluded? Not at all only that its not exclusive further validated by GRRM's Dragon statement.So its not fair to accuse any one if disagreeing or not seeing because they dont buy something. That is the only reason to disagree.i for one put Sly wren above such things.

[Sly Wren]

1.) Bael the Bard is most definitely the lover. True, Marillion isn't Sansa's lover - though he tries - but neither is Petyr, the abductor in Sansa's arc. I think you *might* be over interpreting the bard thing, but I see where you're coming from. Now if you could draw a parallel Ygritte and Arthur, you'd have something. 

In the story, yes, Bael is the lover. But Martin does not run his echoes straight. He always twists them. Both Jon and Stannis have elements of the Night's King. @Lady Barbrey and others have pointed out the echoes of the Night's Queen in Mel. Jon and Bran both seem to be echoing parts of the Last Hero. Ned echoes both himself and his father when he comes south again. Robb echoes Robert in his rebellion. But none of the echoes run the same. There's always at least one twist. Or more.

In Game, we get that Lyanna is Jon's mother, that the roses and blood are connected to her death and Jon, and that Rhaegar gave her the roses.

In Clash, we get the Bael the Bard story. And see the blue flower (later called a rose) in the wall of ice.

Storm: Confirms that Rhaegar was the bard to Lyanna's Stark rose maid. Now, all of the elements fit. Even the potential for politics from the Bael story.

So where's the twist? Martin starts telling us that in Storm, too. The Bard is not the lover. He's the leader of the warrior lover (Ygritte follows and believes in Mance). The Bard is a pawn or lackey of a stronger figure (Marillion). Or the warrior is false and a servant of a twisted Bael(wish)--Dontos and Baelish.

In Feast: The Blue Bard is again a pawn. A cudgel wielded against a rose and her family. NOT the lover os the rose maid Marg.

In Dance: the Bard warps the role, working with the Bastard Stark to steal the false rose maid from the evil rulers with other help of a turn cloak. Not the lover of the false rose maid, Jayne.

@Kingmonkey is absolutely right in the OP: the Bael story is what links Rhaegar to Lyanna and Jon. But we can't only list the iterations. The context counts. Martin isn't just leaving us hanging. He's bringing up that symbol in every single book for a reason. And so far, the main twist in the repeat of the Bael story (as there are twists in every repeat) is always this: the  Bard is NOT the lover.

2.) As for the dream, you're again over-interpreting, particularly with your ideas about Jons actions. Fact is, he does kill his sibling an declare himself the Lord of Winterfell, which is exactly, exactly what the BSE does. He kills his love with a red fire sword - exact match for Azor Ahai. You can say what you want about the meanings of the dream but it's a fact that he replays the actions of those two exactly, which makes sense if they are the same person as I propose. You can say he doesn't really mean to kill Robb or whatever, but in the dream, he kills Robb and declares himself Lord of Winterfell, and that has to be explained / dealt with. 

The NW wields fire, and thats not a bad thing. You can't break that connection - "fire, we should have remembered." The Others hate the touch of fire, and clearly the wights are quickly killed by fire. The NW MUST use fire. You need to stop with your idea that Jon is rejecting fire, because that's just not happening. There's nothing in the dream about rejecting Mel, there's no negative expression about it, there's no comparing the Wall to her fire as opposing or competing methods to stop the Others. It's just not there. You're seeing that because of your ideas about Dawn and Jon and all that, I think, but it is not there. It's not even implied. Jon is the fire that burns against the cold. I know you guys want anything other than RLJ to be true but you just can't strip the fire imagery from Jon. 

Not trying to strip anything. Trying to make it fit with the novels.

Mel is the deliverer of the Azor Ahai story. Jon seems less than enamored of the idea. But Davos NAILS the problem: that such a weapon is evil. As you've said: #Teamabomination.

So where is the unabominable weapon? We see Dawn in Game. AND we see it in comparison to the fire-and-blood-sacrifice-based-weapon process: when Dany's dreaming of all of the ways fire destroys things. The figures with the white swords urge her to go faster--but she gets caught by the dragon. Then wakes and wakes the dragon through blood sacrifice. That's what the Azor Ahai story is: an abominable version of the sword. 

Martin repeats that idea in Clash and later novels with Mel and her false Lightbringer. Given what we've learned about the horror or blood sacrifice and Davos' reaction to the Lightbringer story, gotta think it's at least possible that "Lightbringer" is a counterfeit per se. Some other blade is the real sword of heroes.

But Jon connects the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Notes how Ghost's red eyes are NOT like Mel's. Makes plans to get in her way re: the sacrifices of babies (good boy, Jon!). It's not fire per se Jon rejects. It's the fire and blood sacrifice as savior that he rejects.

Mel makes NO appearance in the dream. Jon's armored in black ice because at night, the Wall is black. And "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

He is united with the Wall and the Watch in this purpose. 

NOTE: I am WELL aware that Jon as Sword of the Morning can hold true with Rhaegar as father. As Kingmonkey and others have pointed out, the grail imagery around Dawn at Starfall may mean the Daynes are the keepers of the sword. Until we know more, that option is ABSOLUTELY open.

AND: I would also assert that Jon can be Rhaegar's son without being Azor Ahai.

Which means, I think, that when we argue about this, we are arguing Jon's role, not his origin. So, whether we are both right or both wrong, Jon can be Rhaegar's son, no?

[Sly Wren]

So its not fair to accuse any one if disagreeing or not seeing because they dont buy something. That is the only reason to disagree.

. 

[wolfmaid7]

In the story, yes, Bael is the lover. But Martin does not rreasonablychoes straight. He always twists them. Both Jon and Stannis have elements of the Night's King. @Lady Barbrey and others hclaimingnted out the echoes of the Night's Queen in Mel. Jon and Bran both seem to be echoing parts of the Last Hero. Ned echoes both himself and his father when he comes south again. Robb echoes Robert in his rebellion. But none of the echoes run the same. There's always at least one twist. Or more.

In Game, we get that Lyanna is Jon's mother, that the roses and blood are connected to her death and Jon, and that Rhaegar gave her the roses.

In Clash, we get the Bael the Bard story. And see the blue flower (later called a rose) in the wall of ice.

Storm: Confirms that Rhaegar was the bard to Lyanna's Stark rose maid. Now, all of the elements fit. Even the potential for politics from the Bael story.

So where's the twist? Martin starts telling us that in Storm, too. The Bard is not the lover. He's the leader of the warrior lover (Ygritte follows and believes in Mance). The Bard is a pawn or lackey of a stronger figure (Marillion). Or the warrior is false and a servant of a twisted Bael(wish)--Dontos and Baelish.

In Feast: The Blue Bard is again a pawn. A cudgel wielded against a rose and her family. NOT the lover os the rose maid Marg.

In Dance: the Bard warps the role, working with the Bastard Stark to steal the false rose maid from the evil rulers with other help of a turn cloak. Not the lover of the false rose maid, Jayne.

@Kingmonkey is absolutely right in the OP: the Bael story is what links Rhaegar to Lyanna and Jon. But we can't only list the iterations. The context counts. Martin isn't just leaving us hanging. He's bringing up that symbol in every single book for a reason. And so far, the main twist in the repeat of the Bael story (as there are twists in every repeat) is always this: the  Bard is NOT the lover.

Not trying to strip anything. Trying to make it fit with the novels.

Mel is the deliverer of the Azor Ahai story. Jon seems less than enamored of the idea. But Davos NAILS the problem: that such a weapon is evil. As you've said: #Teamabomination.

So where is the unabominable weapon? We see Dawn in Game. AND we see it in comparison to the fire-and-blood-sacrifice-based-weapon process: when Dany's dreaming of all of the ways fire destroys things. The figures with the white swords urge her to go faster--but she gets caught by the dragon. Then wakes and wakes the dragon through blood sacrifice. That's what the Azor Ahai story is: an abominable version of the sword. 

Martin repeats that idea in Clash and later novels with Mel and her false Lightbringer. Given what we've learned about the horror or blood sacrifice and Davos' reaction to the Lightbringer story, gotta think it's at least possible that "Lightbringer" is a counterfeit per se. Some other blade is the real sword of heroes.

But Jon connects the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Notes how Ghost's red eyes are NOT like Mel's. Makes plans to get in her way re: the sacrifices of babies (good boy, Jon!). It's not fire per se Jon rejects. It's the fire and blood sacrifice as savior that he rejects.

Mel makes NO appearance in the dream. Jon's armored in black ice because at night, the Wall is black. And "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

He is united with the Wall and the Watch in this purpose. 

NOTE: I am WELL aware that Jon as Sword of the Morning can hold true with Rhaegar as father. As Kingmonkey and others have pointed out, the grail imagery around Dawn at Starfall may mean the Daynes are the keepers of the sword. Until we know more, that option is ABSOLUTELY open.

AND: I would also assert that Jon can be Rhaegar's son without being Azor Ahai.

Which means, I think, that when we argue about this, we are arguing Jon's role, not his origin. So, whether we are both right or both wrong, Jon can be Rhaegar's son, no?

Word! If it's a matter of blood and all that jazz then its very problematic when we have a house with so called prophetic calling having merged their bloodline.Hell Aegon real or fake is claiming thar heritage. 

This is why it may come down to if Jon can be proven to have come from Rhaella and Aerys line what exactly does that mean in terms of how prophecy unfolds in this story.

To me you can't put the cart before the horse.You have to reasonably prove Jon is Rhaegar and Lya's kid.And like I said if this were any other author I would go with the obvious.All the superficial clues are more than enough to conclude Rhaegar is Jon's father.But the subtle clues say otherwise to me.

[LmL]

. 

I am referring to your insistence that Jon is rejecting the red fire and Mel by saying the wall must be manned. There is absolutely no rejection or repudiation of Mel or her fire in that scene. I think you're looking for it because you've spent a lot time talking about this theme of Jon rejecting blood sacrifice and fire magic, and I think you projected that idea into the red steals of fire in the Wall scene accordingly. I say this because it's not even implied in the actual scene, but you're seeing it there anyway because it fits with your previous ideas. It's no slight against you - I do the same thing, as well all do. We're all picking up on different themes and sets of symbols so it's natural to look for them in various places. But in this case, no, red fire is a part of Jon's legacy. And so too may be blood sacrifice. Jon's own, for a start, and perhaps Ghost or Shireen or others. Jon is one of the AA reborn characters, there can be no debate about that, and blood magic is a part of the AA legacy which he has inherited. Certainly it's possible his role is to right this abomination, not simply repeat it - that seems likely. But remember that blood magic is not exclusive to fire either - it may have something to do with the weirwood magic also. 

But the RLJ points I'm making are that Rhaegar and Lyanna are perfect, exact matches for the AA and NN role, and Jon for that of Lightbringer, and AA reborn. Of course AA reborn is also NN reborn, so I would say that Dany and Jon are dealing with the legacy of both, and there are a lot of ways for that to play out. In my opinion, AA reborn does have to be a Targaryen. Maybe, just maybe, he could be a Dayne, if I'm right that Daynes are descended from a common ancestor of Valyria, that being the people of AA. But since the Jon Dayne theories don't have much supporting evidence, I think all of the evidence pointing at Jon being AA reborn also indicates he has dragonblood, which means Targaryen blood. In other words, all of my mythical astronomy research  corroborates RLJ. That's what I'm saying, and if you read my essays then you'll see the case I am making for this. There's a lot more stuff than what I've mentioned, even. Maybe next time I'll explain how dying moon maidens make bloodstone, and how both Lyanna and Daenerys did this in the books. I'm working on the full version of that for my second podcast. 

[LmL]

SlyWren, I also believe you're off about the wake the dragon dream. You said the pale fire sword holding kingly ghosts are interrupted and Dany is caught by the dragon. This isn't what happens though - the ghosts root for her to wake the dragon, and she does. She becomes the dragon herself, she is not caught by one. There is no other dragon on that dream but herself. She sprouts wings and her blood burns, and then she flies through the red door. That's a depiction of her fire transformation, "having the fire inside you" as its specifically called. Every time someone has the fire inside them, they are undergoing fire transformation. Mel does it, Dany does it, Varamyr when he's burnt out of the sky by Mel, etc. Beric has been fire transformed and has black blood, because fire transformation burns blood - again, as Dany's does in the wake the dragon dream. Just as Lightbringer boiled a monster's blood when AA stabbed one. 

The point here is that Dany doesn't reject or oppose the pale fire sword people - they want her to wake the dragon, and she does. They're on the same page there. What this means for Dawn and Lightbringer, we can and have debated. I like your idea about Dawn representing pre-AA filming sword tech, with AA's red sword being a corrupt version. Not a "fake," but a corrupted version. And in turn, it's possible a corrupt magic sword could be sanctified or remade, so we can't be sure where the overlap and delineation is between Dawn and Lightbringer and the Last Hero's dragon steel. I myself am open to many variations here, because I haven't found conclusive clues about which one of these possibilities is true. 

[Sly Wren]

I am referring to your insistence that Jon is rejecting the red fire and Mel by saying the wall must be manned. There is absolutely no rejection or repudiation of Mel or her fire in that scene. I think you're looking for it because you've spent a lot time talking about this theme of Jon rejecting blood sacrifice and fire magic, and I think you projected that idea into the red steals of fire in the Wall scene accordingly. I say this because it's not even implied in the actual scene, but you're seeing it there anyway because it fits with your previous ideas. It's no slight against you - I do the same thing, as well all do. We're all picking up on different themes and sets of symbols so it's natural to look for them in various places. But in this case, no, red fire is a part of Jon's legacy. And so too may be blood sacrifice. Jon's own, for a start, and perhaps Ghost or Shireen or others. Jon is one of the AA reborn characters, there can be no debate about that, and blood magic is a part of the AA legacy which he has inherited. Certainly it's possible his role is to right this abomination, not simply repeat it - that seems likely. But remember that blood magic is not exclusive to fire either - it may have something to do with the weirwood magic also. 

I agree it's open to interp. But I do think it's at least arguably implied. Mel keeps saying things like her fires reveal truth and Stannis is the savior. Now, Jon's thinking that she will once again be lighting those fires. His next thought? He says "the Wall will save us." Seems like it's at least arguably a continuation of his reluctance to agree with her perspective.

And I do not feel slighted. Debating with you is a LOT of fun and keeps me sharp (I think). You know your stuff backwards and forwards and you explain yourself better than I do. So, no worries.

But the RLJ points I'm making are that Rhaegar and Lyanna are perfect, exact matches for the AA and NN role, and Jon for that of Lightbringer, and AA reborn. Of course AA reborn is also NN reborn, so I would say that Dany and Jon are dealing with the legacy of both, and there are a lot of ways for that to play out. In my opinion, AA reborn does have to be a Targaryen. Maybe, just maybe, he could be a Dayne, if I'm right that Daynes are descended from a common ancestor of Valyria, that being the people of AA. But since the Jon Dayne theories don't have much supporting evidence, I think all of the evidence pointing at Jon being AA reborn also indicates he has dragonblood, which means Targaryen blood. In other words, all of my mythical astronomy research  corroborates RLJ. That's what I'm saying, and if you read my essays then you'll see the case I am making for this. There's a lot more stuff than what I've mentioned, even. Maybe next time I'll explain how dying moon maidens make bloodstone, and how both Lyanna and Daenerys did this in the books. I'm working on the full version of that for my second podcast. 

On the bolded I absolutely agree. If RLJ pans out, the imagery fits flawlessly. Even before I'd read your essays in depth and just skimmed them (I have read them thoroughly at this point)--but even then, that point was clear as a bell.

I'm reluctant to bank on it in part because the books aren't done. But also because the AA myth seems to be a counterfeit of what's really needed. The sword that AA's sword was trying to copy. The white sword's the one that goes with the Wall--and no, I'm not just doing a girly fashion critique. And Jon so far rejects blood sacrifice. While Dany's the one who embraces it.

I also completely agree that Dany fits flawlessly as the moon maiden. And even some of the imagery for AA--killing to forge a weapon. 

All that said: if AA actually ends up being what's needed, then I agree that this will pan out. For now, I'm skeptical, based on how blood sacrifice has been presented as abomination in the novels. Dany, not Jon, is the one who's willing to do that. Am thinking that the moon maid might claim the role of Stallion that Mounts the World. A twist. . . 

ETA: On the Dayne stuff, we should probably keep that on the Arthur thread until the final combo thread. Where we can compare. At least I think that's the plan.

[Sly Wren]

SlyWren, I also believe you're off about the wake the dragon dream. You said the pale fire sword holding kingly ghosts are interrupted and Dany is caught by the dragon. This isn't what happens though - the ghosts root for her to wake the dragon, and she does. She becomes the dragon herself, she is not caught by one. There is no other dragon on that dream but herself. She sprouts wings and her blood burns, and then she flies through the red door. That's a depiction of her fire transformation, "having the fire inside you" as its specifically called. Every time someone has the fire inside them, they are undergoing fire transformation. Mel does it, Dany does it, Varamyr when he's burnt out of the sky by Mel, etc. Beric has been fire transformed and has black blood, because fire transformation burns blood - again, as Dany's does in the wake the dragon dream. Just as Lightbringer boiled a monster's blood when AA stabbed one. 

I'm not sure about this. The dream seems to be showing her what happens when you give into the dragon. In between the various interjections about "don't want to wake the dragon," she has scenes that devolve into fire--Drogo and the whole world, her son, Vicerys. I think Jorah just goes up in smoke. All as she's filled with pain, running FROM the darkness chasing her. The ghosts say "faster faster." Seems like they are encouraging her to run AWAY from the darkness. Then her back splits and she flies. When she opens the door and sees Rhaegar, he's actually her. I read that as "embracing the dragon gets you dead. Run."

But after she's shown all of this about waking the dragon--she does it any way. 

But given the level of ambiguity in that dream--plus, it's a dream--I fully concede I could be wrong.

The point here is that Dany doesn't reject or oppose the pale fire sword people - they want her to wake the dragon, and she does. They're on the same page there. What this means for Dawn and Lightbringer, we can and have debated. I like your idea about Dawn representing pre-AA filming sword tech, with AA's red sword being a corrupt version. Not a "fake," but a corrupted version. And in turn, it's possible a corrupt magic sword could be sanctified or remade, so we can't be sure where the overlap and delineation is between Dawn and Lightbringer and the Last Hero's dragon steel. I myself am open to many variations here, because I haven't found conclusive clues about which one of these possibilities is true. 

I'm right there with you on trying to figure out the possibilities. And I also do not think Dany is opposing or rejecting the sword people. It just seems like they are telling her to run from, not embrace, the darkness that leads to death. But then she wakes. And embraces it. With a sound that shakes the world. Makes me very worried for her. 

And the corrupt sword vs. original is not my idea. I'd thought it was part of yours. Is it Dark Sister's? Lady Barbrey's? Huh. . .

[Sly Wren]

Word! If it's a matter of blood and all that jazz then its very problematic when we have a house with so called prophetic calling having merged their bloodline.Hell Aegon real or fake is claiming thar heritage. 

This is why it may come down to if Jon can be proven to have come from Rhaella and Aerys line what exactly does that mean in terms of how prophecy unfolds in this story.

To me you can't put the cart before the horse.You have to reasonably prove Jon is Rhaegar and Lya's kid.And like I said if this were any other author I would go with the obvious.All the superficial clues are more than enough to conclude Rhaegar is Jon's father.But the subtle clues say otherwise to me.

Given that the key link--the bard connection--seems to be telling us something different via the context, it seems like there's a chance Martin's not trying to trick us with "subtlety." Just telling us to "keep reading." The bard and rose clue keeps developing and delivering slightly new bits of info. So, not so much subtle, perhaps, as just "building."

[LmL]

I'm not sure about this. The dream seems to be showing her what happens when you give into the dragon. In between the various interjections about "don't want to wake the dragon," she has scenes that devolve into fire--Drogo and the whole world, her son, Vicerys. I think Jorah just goes up in smoke. All as she's filled with pain, running FROM the darkness chasing her. The ghosts say "faster faster." Seems like they are encouraging her to run AWAY from the darkness. Then her back splits and she flies. When she opens the door and sees Rhaegar, he's actually her. I read that as "embracing the dragon gets you dead. Run."

But after she's shown all of this about waking the dragon--she does it any way. 

But given the level of ambiguity in that dream--plus, it's a dream--I fully concede I could be wrong.

I'm right there with you on trying to figure out the possibilities. And I also do not think Dany is opposing or rejecting the sword people. It just seems like they are telling her to run from, not embrace, the darkness that leads to death. But then she wakes. And embraces it. With a sound that shakes the world. Makes me very worried for her. 

And the corrupt sword vs. original is not my idea. I'd thought it was part of yours. Is it Dark Sister's? Lady Barbrey's? Huh. . .

right on Sly. Consider this: she's running from a cold darkness, and then she basically combusts as she runs away from that a- her feet melt stone, her blood boils, and she turns into a dragon. That's waking the dragon, and the kingly hosts are rooting for her to wake her dragon. I'm not sure what to make of that except that they seem to be encouraging her. 

I'm with you on the blood sacrifice - #teamabomination and all - I just don't know what Martin is doing with blood sacrifice in his novels. I know how I feel about it, but I'm leery of projecting my own morality onto the story. And I'm certainly not predicting that Jon will embrace human sacrifice - only that he bears the weight of a legacy which does involve it, and he'll likely have to confront that somehow. Also, there's the long string of occasions where Jon has been forced to break oaths and dishonor himself for the greater good, and I'm worried about how far Martin will take that. 

[purple-eyes]

No, I think you're wrong here, because the NW wields fire. They do it in real life, on the Fist, and they do it Jon's dream. The Wall is where we stop them... with fire. There is no rejection of Mel or her fire in this passage - you're reading that into it, it isn't there. In the cracks in the ice, where we saw the blue rose, we now see red fire and black ice. And in Jon's dream, the same combination. Since most people interpret the blue rose as a symbol of Jon's legacy through Lyanna, it's reasonable to propose that the red fire and black ice represent Jon in some way, and I think the burning red sword makes it clear this has something to do with Azor Ahai, and thus, fire magic. Jon isn't going to reject fire magic - he's going to temper it with ice. He's going to harmonize ice and fire. That's what Rhaegar was doing when he impregnated Lyanna, symbolically - he was putting his fiery dragon seed into an icy sheath. That's how I see Jon, "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath." The black icy sheath - his black ice armor. But holding a burning red sword. Ice and fire, working in unison. To me, that can only be explained by RLJ. 

so rhaegar's manhood is burning red sword and lyanna's cunt is black icy sheath? 

Sorry for being gross, but I think this is what you are talking about, right? 

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think GRRM has ever tried to trick his audience if any tricking takes place it will only be because we did it to ourselves.Is he being subtle yes and no .If one is eager to see something then what's really there goes over the head.IMO blue rose/rose in the Wall/slash a crown of blue roses = Jon is incorrect.I don't even know where to begn with that.The whole basis for that is way off  barring the whole interpretation just the image of Lyanna "wearing" a crown of blue rose is enough to port that entire idea.

There's a lot to reveal about this i have no doubt.

[LmL]

so rhaegar's manhood is burning red sword and lyanna's cunt is black icy sheath? 

Sorry for being gross, but I think this is what you are talking about, right? 

Lyanna would be an icy sheath, the black would be from the dragon side, so to speak