Heresy Project X+Y=J: Rhaegar + Lyanna

[IceFire125]

But with Jon and Ygritte--the Bard is the leader not the lover. The lover is the follower. In all of the bard references tied to rose maids--the Bard isn't the lover. . . 

I do think it's possible Lyanna could fall for her protector. But the parallels between Sansa and Lyanna seem more relevant here, especially since Martin establishes before we're halfway through Game that Sansa is "Lyanna part II" as the Stark bride to marry the Baratheon heir--and all goes wrong. As well as the wolf-maid who ends up dead--and Ned makes sure the wolf-maid's corpse is returned all the way to Winterfell. Sansa bookends Lyanna's plot in Game.

If Lyanna fell in love with a rescuer, seems like it would be more in line with the Sansa parallel Martin started in Game and continues throughout.

How do you know that in regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna that is not the case?

When all through out Jon's chapters with Ygritte, GRRM has plastered Jon with immense doubt if what he's doing is the right thing or not? thus loving her (Ygritte) had consequences.  Which is quite probable that Rhaegar went through the same thing.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**You were wrong to love her, ties in with Rhaegar was wrong to love Lyanna, we know Rhaegar was fond of Elia.

**You were wrong to leave her, ties in with Rhaegar leaving Lyanna (at the tower)--OR leaving Elia for Lyanna.

There were two voices Jon was hearing, then GRRM subtly placed the thought in Jon, that if "his" Father was torn in the same way (between two women, two situations, LOVE vs DUTY).  On the surface, to casual reader, his talking about Ned, but deeper than that, to the astute and observant reader, this is all Rhaegar.  Did Rhaegar pledged his vows to Lyanna in front of the weirwood tree like Jon did when he pledged his vows to the NW??

To me, GRRM is telling us..... YES!

Thus the ever constant theme of LOVE vs. DUTY.

For Jon: Ygritte (love) vs NW (duty)

For Rhaegar: Lyanna (love) vs Elia (duty)

 

 

[purple-eyes]

How do you know that in regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna that is not the case?

When all through out Jon's chapters with Ygritte, GRRM has plastered Jon with immense doubt if what he's doing is the right thing or not? thus loving her (Ygritte) had consequences.  Which is quite probable that Rhaegar went through the same thing.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**You were wrong to love her, ties in with Rhaegar was wrong to love Lyanna, we know Rhaegar was fond of Elia.

**You were wrong to leave her, ties in with Rhaegar leaving Lyanna (at the tower)--OR leaving Elia for Lyanna.

There were two voices Jon was hearing, then GRRM subtly placed the thought in Jon, that if "his" Father was torn in the same way (between two women, two situations, LOVE vs DUTY).  On the surface, to casual reader, his talking about Ned, but deeper than that, to the astute and observant reader, this is all Rhaegar.  Did Rhaegar pledged his vows to Lyanna in front of the weirwood tree like Jon did when he pledged his vows to the NW??

To me, GRRM is telling us..... YES!

Thus the ever constant theme of LOVE vs. DUTY.

For Jon: Ygritte (love) vs NW (duty)

For Rhaegar: Lyanna (love) vs Elia (duty)

 

 

Absolutely, constant theme about love and duty. 

I am sure Maegor was also torn the same way when he left Lady hightower (duty-wife) and followed Arys Harrowway (love-wife), 

Aegon IV was probably also torn when he betrayed queen Naerys (duty-wife) and slept with his nine mistresses (true love)

Rhaegar is exactly the same. 

When sleeping with Elia and having as many as children with her (this is my duty! I have no pleasure in these things!), then when he needs to find a 10 year younger woman to have sex (this is my true love! Isn't love sweet?)

How about be a better man and refuse to marry his duty-wife since he did not love her, just like Black-fish?

I am sure Lyanna will be happy if Rhaegar can keep his virginity for her. 

 

By the way, your parallel has some flaw. 

Rhaegar was pledged to his wife Elia in front of old and new gods. 

Then he abandoned his oath and eloped with Lyanna. 

Just like Jon, was pledged to NW, then he abandoned his oath and did what he did. 

There is nothing suggesting that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree. 

In fact, there was no heart tree for him to marry in TOJ, and we have not heard that he was spotted in any castle with heart tree or he managed to get into isle of faces to get his polygamy heart tree marriage. 

 

 

 

 

 

[IceFire125]

By the way, your parallel has some flaw. 

Rhaegar was pledged to his wife Elia in front of old and new gods. 

Then he abandoned his oath and eloped with Lyanna. 

Just like Jon, was pledged to NW, then he abandoned his oath and did what he did. 

There is nothing suggesting that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a tree. 

In fact, there was no heart tree for him to marry in TOJ, and we have not heard that he was spotted in any castle with heart tree or he managed to get into isle of faces to get his polygamy heart tree marriage. 

The heart tree in Harrenhal's godswood still bleed with 13 marks of Daemon's slashes, waiting for Aemond to come.  Rhaegar stole Lyanna just about 30 miles from Harrenhal.  There was no need to marry at the tower of joy, because they already pledged themselves to each other.

That's right, parallel with Jon, he pledged his vows to the NW in front of the tree, just like Rhaegar pledged his vows to a certain Lady Stark.

If you're naive to think that GRRM put that by accident and that Jon was just thinking only about Ned being torn, then that's up to you, but I'm willing to go beyond what GRRM placed on the text superficially, with hidden and subtle layers for his "astute readers" to know.

[purple-eyes]

The heart tree in Harrenhal's godswood still bleed with 13 marks of Daemon's slashes, waiting for Aemond to come.  Rhaegar stole Lyanna just about 30 miles from Harrenhal.  There was no need to marry at the tower of joy, because they already pledged themselves to each other.

That's right, parallel with Jon, he pledged his vows to the NW in front of the tree, just like Rhaegar pledged his vows to a certain Lady Stark.

If you're naive to think that GRRM put that by accident and that Jon was just thinking only about Ned being torn, then that's up to you, but I'm willing to go beyond what GRRM placed on the text superficially, with hidden and subtle layers for his "astute readers" to know.

Then they would be spotted by the people in Harrenhall. Varys has his spies everywhere. 

And nowhere said they married. Lyanna for all we know is a mistress. 

Your logic really has some error. 

Jon pledged to NW, then he broke his oath to follow his heart. 

This parallels with rhaegar pledged to Elia, then he betrayed his oath to follow Lyanna. 

I agree this paragraph was talking about Rhaegar as well. 

But I have no idea about what is your logic:

so you mean, Rhaegar pledged to Lyanna (lady stark), then he broke this oath to what? remarry Elia? Rhaegar broke his oath with Elia, he did not break anything with Lyanna. 

Or you mean it is a oath breaking move to leave TOJ and go back to fight for his house and dynasty? so rhaegar should have remained in TOJ until the very end to be able to a oath keeper?

By the way, Lyanna is not lady stark, technically. 

She is lady (whoever her husband is). Catleyn and her mom Lyrara are lady stark. 

Have you heard even once Lyanna was called Lady stark?

Lady Stark is a title bestowed to the wife of Lord Stark. or a stark woman who rules winterfell by her own right.

Please do not try to confuse people by your flawed logic. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LmL]

In an earlier draft of the introduction, I delved into this idea a little deeper. I do agree that there is something almost unsatisfying, to the careful reader, in R+L=J. We somehow want there to be more to the story than that. I think you do underestimate how much of a mystery this is to most readers, though. I've raised the question with three friends who've read the series but don't read boards and theories online. All three are highly intelligent and observant readers. One had the hypothesis that it was "Eddard's dead sister and that Targaryen prince guy," but he wouldn't have put money on it. One thought it was Ned + Ashara. One doubted that Ned was Jon's dad and had considered Rhaegar & Lyanna amongst several possibilities but didn't think it particularly likely. 

Wolfmaid brings up a very similar point:

When I set out to write this piece, I concentrated on avoiding the speculative stuff and working on the core question of Jon's parentage. I think that's something that needed to be done, and that we expect something more surprising from GRRM doesn't really come into that equation. What I was asking was what the text leads us to, not what it means. 

This is a mystery to be solved. R+L=J is not a blatantly obvious conclusion that every reader comes to. It's a puzzle that requires unpicking. A mystery that the reader is unable to solve is a bad mystery. It should be possible for a sharp reader to find the answer. There should also be enough doubt left that even if you're pretty sure you've found the answer, there's still scope for you to be wrong. This, in the case of Jon's birth, is undoubtedly true, or we wouldn't be having this X+L=J series. This is just how a well-written mystery works.

Does that mean that I think you, and Snowfyre, and Black Crow, are wrong in anticipating more of a twist? No, I think you're wrong in thinking that the puzzle necessarily has only one layer. Once we've solved the question of Jon's parentage, perhaps we shouldn't be too confident in thinking we know the full solution to the puzzle GRRM has set for us. He is, after all, an author who likes to surprise his readers. Having figured out that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, we have a ready-made expectation; the forbidden love affair, the hidden prince. Suppose that's not it at all? Suppose, just for the sake of a juicy example, Rhaegar's intention was to sacrifice Jon and Lyanna in an attempt to do right the failed ritual at Harrenhal when he was the baby that was meant to be sacrificed, like Rhaego, to birth dragons? 

Wouldn't it be just like GRRM to set us a puzzle that gives us a perfectly neat narrative once we've solved it -- and then to surprise us not by having a twist in the puzzle, but by having a twist in the narrative that we casually assume once we've solved that puzzle?

That, however, is beyond the scope of trying to solve the equation X+L=J.

 

 

Hey KingMonkey, terrific essay and I very much enjoyed the angle you took on it. I think there's a lot to learn by analyzing where Martin gives us ideas and in what order and in what context, so I immediately saw the logic to your approach. 

I plan on using this as a reference for the basics of RLJ when needed, because it's very easy to follow and basically relies on the information in the very first book. It makes a very good case for the literary and thematic sense of RLJ, which I find quite compelling, personally.

There are a lot of different ideas to comment on, but the one highlighted in your comment above caught my attention. Not only is RLJ not "too obvious," you're right to point out that many further layers exist. For a start, can anyone say they know what the ramifications of RLJ will end up being? The idea of Jon making a play for the Iron Throne really doesn't make much sense to most people, which is why most intuitively feel this is not where Jon's arc is going. Many suspect the real point has to do with the idea of a song of ice and fire, a balancing or mixing of these two elements through Jon's parentage. I agree with the his, but even then, what does this mean? What does it mean for Jon, specifically? There's been a lot of great ideas and theories about what this could mean, many of which we've all taken part in, but there is not an obvious answer. We know there is some magical connection between Targs and dragons, but we don't know exactly what the deal is with it, how it came about, or how it will play into Jon's future deeds. We don't know how far the magical connection with Starks and ice magic goes, or what the connection is between Starks and Others. All of these murky ideas go into the greater concept of Jon being the child of ice and fire, which may or may not be the most important facet of RLJ. 

I would say that solving Jon's parentage is only step one to figuring out what is going on with Jon. You basically NEED to understand it, or you don't understand who Jon is and what magical heritages he has to draw on, whose baggage he is inheriting. Figuring our RLJ only fills the reader in on Jon's backstory, which is really only context for the greater question of what Jon's role is. Similarly, all of my research into the Long Night disaster and ancient myth only provides us with backstory and context for the current story. I'd argue it's much needed to really understand what is happening (as opposed to just enjoying the action as it comes), but solving all that shit doesn't give me the ending of the books or anything like that. It reveals foreshadowing which can be interpreted in several ways, just as the implications of RLJ might foreshadow many things. Martin is giving us puzzles to solve, all over the place, but solving them only gives us pieces to a greater puzzle, and helps us see the full context in which the drama unfolds. 

[Sly Wren]

How do you know that in regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna that is not the case?

With unfinished books, I do not know for sure. And I apologize if I implied that I did.

When all through out Jon's chapters with Ygritte, GRRM has plastered Jon with immense doubt if what he's doing is the right thing or not? thus loving her (Ygritte) had consequences.  Which is quite probable that Rhaegar went through the same thing.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**You were wrong to love her, ties in with Rhaegar was wrong to love Lyanna, we know Rhaegar was fond of Elia.

**You were wrong to leave her, ties in with Rhaegar leaving Lyanna (at the tower)--OR leaving Elia for Lyanna.

There were two voices Jon was hearing, then GRRM subtly placed the thought in Jon, that if "his" Father was torn in the same way (between two women, two situations, LOVE vs DUTY).  On the surface, to casual reader, his talking about Ned, but deeper than that, to the astute and observant reader, this is all Rhaegar.  Did Rhaegar pledged his vows to Lyanna in front of the weirwood tree like Jon did when he pledged his vows to the NW??

To me, GRRM is telling us..... YES!

Thus the ever constant theme of LOVE vs. DUTY.

For Jon: Ygritte (love) vs NW (duty)

For Rhaegar: Lyanna (love) vs Elia (duty)

Without doubt, this could end up applying to Rhaegar as father. But the "duty" and the "leaving" are not Rhaegar specific. They could apply to other candidates--who also swore oaths. The oath in question need not be a marriage oath--like Ned's and Rhaegar's. It could also be an oath to a brotherhood--like Jon's. Or another oath. So, for now, the voices are unidentified. 

But in the same novel where Martin confirms Rhaegar as a bard and has Lyanna sniffling at his song in the story Bran hears, he also has two other Stark maids with ties to Lyanna.

Jon, teased by Ygritte for being a maid, and the son of Lyanna--his lover is not the Bard. She is the follower of the Bard King Mance. And Jon is now their prisoner/follower/spy. Tied to his abduction and disappearance from where he should be. But--the Bard is not the lover.

Sansa, established in Game as bookending Lyanna's plot, is dressed all in blue when Marillion comes to lead her to the unstable leader (Lysa). He says he'll write her a song about her as a Roadside Rose. A clear Lyanna and Bael the Bard reference. But again--the Bard is not the lover. He's making unwanted advances. But he's the lackey of the unstable leader who is forced to take the blame for someone else's machinations.

So--in one book, over three Stark POV's, Martin confirms the link between the Bael the Bard story and Lyanna and Rhaegar. AND he seems to tell us the connection is unlikely to be that the Bard is the lover. The Bard is the captor and leader of the lover. Or the follower of another unstable leader. But not the lover.

Martin keeps that pattern up in Feast and Dance. In both cases, the Bard is not the lover of the rose maid. So far, looks like Martin might stick to it. 

[IceFire125]

With unfinished books, I do not know for sure. And I apologize if I implied that I did.

Without doubt, this could end up applying to Rhaegar as father. But the "duty" and the "leaving" are not Rhaegar specific. They could apply to other candidates--who also swore oaths. The oath in question need not be a marriage oath--like Ned's and Rhaegar's. It could also be an oath to a brotherhood--like Jon's. Or another oath. So, for now, the voices are unidentified. 

But in the same novel where Martin confirms Rhaegar as a bard and has Lyanna sniffling at his song in the story Bran hears, he also has two other Stark maids with ties to Lyanna.

Jon, teased by Ygritte for being a maid, and the son of Lyanna--his lover is not the Bard. She is the follower of the Bard King Mance. And Jon is now their prisoner/follower/spy. Tied to his abduction and disappearance from where he should be. But--the Bard is not the lover.

Sansa, established in Game as bookending Lyanna's plot, is dressed all in blue when Marillion comes to lead her to the unstable leader (Lysa). He says he'll write her a song about her as a Roadside Rose. A clear Lyanna and Bael the Bard reference. But again--the Bard is not the lover. He's making unwanted advances. But he's the lackey of the unstable leader who is forced to take the blame for someone else's machinations.

So--in one book, over three Stark POV's, Martin confirms the link between the Bael the Bard story and Lyanna and Rhaegar. AND he seems to tell us the connection is unlikely to be that the Bard is the lover. The Bard is the captor and leader of the lover. Or the follower of another unstable leader. But not the lover.

Martin keeps that pattern up in Feast and Dance. In both cases, the Bard is not the lover of the rose maid. So far, looks like Martin might stick to it. 

True, but Jon "stole" Ygritte without realizing.  From Ygritte's own mouth.

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

**Red flag! Is GRRM hinting the same thing happened with Rhaegar when the knife was at (tKotLT's) Lyanna's throat??

The same thing happened with Val, without realizing Jon stole her.

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.
“Thief,” the raven agreed.

Ygritte didn't kill Jon in his sleep, meaning, Ygritte loved Jon.  Jon truly "stole" her, the wildling way.  Is it far fetched to think that that also might have happened regarding Rhaegar stealing Lyanna? I don't think it is.

In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know about that, I could argue that the old gods have allowed and sanctioned Rhaegar's action to take Lyanna, that anything to prevent his and Lyanna's union would not be allowed, thus the bleeding Ned suffered when trying to grab the flowers away, mark as a "stark" symbolism.

There are greater forces at play than just Rhaegar simply laying the laurel on Lyanna's lap.  I'm of the opinion, that Rhaegar himself probably didn't realized that he was fulfilling the very prophecy that has been consuming him since he was young, at that very moment.  But something in him was guiding his actions, whether he felt the need to honor her for her role as tKotLT, to which he found out before he won the tournament (I fall in this category of believers) or he felt something for Lyanna to play the role to birth him the 3rd head of the dragon (to which I disagree, Aegon has not yet born, Rhaegar didn't get the news yet that Elia would risk death with another child--after Aegon).

Thus, I'm of the belief, just as with Jon and Ygritte, Rhaegar fell for Lyanna during their time together, during the time of her "abduction".  However, unlike with Ygritte, this was Lyanna (the grey girl on a horse) running away from her marriage, (planned or accidentally) meeting Rhaegar on a cold day in the Riverlands, about 30 miles away from Harrenhal.

My questions are, did Rhaegar had counsel with the green men (or maybe even with the GoHH herself) before meeting with Lyanna, culminating in his realization that Lyanna is the woman TPTWP will be born unto?? thus had a head start in knowing where she will be?? Or was it simply pity and feeling the need to help Lyanna in her desperate situation that he felt the need to be involved in taking her away with him??... leading to him falling in love with her.

 

 

 

 

The old gods (who aren't really gods by the way) have nothing to do with actions Rhaegar took or didn't take.They are not in a position to sanction anyone to do anything.So i don't see how your first para works.Ned wasn't describing suffering when he grabbed the crown he was describing how he felt abd i would menton something else about thorns being symbolic with offense and mockery.The most famouse thorned crown in our world was used to mock Jesus the Christ as King of the Jews.Ned is describing the effects of an offense and mockery against his sister.

I agree that there are greater forces with regard to Lyanna's disappearence than Rhaegar but those forces are very much human.As i said nothing in that whole display of him spoke of honoring her for being KOTLT we don't know if he found out,or how he did.There were others looking for the Knight as well with the intention of unmasking him so we don't know.

As to the last part because there's no proof this happened to Lyanna i can't say and this to me is always the danger of superimposing one person's life or experiancing unto another person without having any foundation for it.This to me is how echoing in this case is used improperly.The whole it happen to X so it must happen to why just doesn't work and it shouldn't because we are dealing with individual choices.If Sansa,Alys,Ygritte and Arya echoes Lyanna how far does the echo does it cease being her indivdually or a regurgitation of one or more females that several posters think.So which is it? Did she runaway like Alys, got pretty much abducted like Sansa,or rescued like Arya? 

I can't answer to Rhaegar's councel with the green man or the GOHH because i have no clue or anything to say that happened.There's literally nothing.I mean that's pulling stuff out of nowhere.I do know this is a story where what you see isn't what is a lot of times and its in the details we see the truth.

1. YUP!!!! In all of the examples, the Stark or rose maid is a political pawn.

2. Capitalized on Rhaegar--could be. But I think both the Marillion and the Blue Bard examples strongly suggest it wasn't Rhaegar's idea. Or not all his idea. 

What struck me was not that the references exist--I and others have noticed them before. What stuck me was the specificity of the contexts. Every book has some reference, and each reference, via context, seems to be part of the puzzle. Not just a general list.

If that's right (questionable--I've got a fever, so who knows if I'm even still typing in English), then Rhaegar, like Marillion and the Blue Bard was a pawn/lackey/eventual fall guy. Not the instigator. And NOT the lover.

3. I also suspect Ned's having a role--and that it's tied to the Knight of the Laughing tree mess. That he and Howland did the Knight stunt--but Lyanna eventually got blamed. As Cersei says about the wolves who attacked her "precious boy"--"we have a wolf." Not sure the Mad King would care more about which wolf he got his hands on, as long as he could strike a blow. Especially with Cersei's later parallels with Aerys.

Ned's being part of it would explain his crypt dream--not just the horror of the crowned Lyanna, but the Starks with ice eyes and growling direwolves. Like his whole family and ancestors are angry at him. 

 

2.Tone in language when a character speaks says a lot and i'm always drawn to the last conversation that Jamie had with Rhaegar. The way he referred to Robert " My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert" In a world where you suppsedly ran off with your cousin's woman you don't call him by a term of endearment especially after pulling a stunt like that.I think it speaks to his unawareness in totality at that point.

3. Yeah i believe Ned had a hand it it,that whole Lyanna was in a room which smelled of Roses and Ned's statement that he always brings her flowers like a ritual raised a flag in my brain.

[wolfmaid7]

True, but Jon "stole" Ygritte without realizing.  From Ygritte's own mouth.

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

**Red flag! Is GRRM hinting the same thing happened with Rhaegar when the knife was at (tKotLT's) Lyanna's throat??

The same thing happened with Val, without realizing Jon stole her.

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.
“Thief,” the raven agreed.

Ygritte didn't kill Jon in his sleep, meaning, Ygritte loved Jon.  Jon truly "stole" her, the wildling way.  Is it far fetched to think that that also might have happened regarding Rhaegar stealing Lyanna? I don't think it is.

In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

 

 

Icefire125  sorry but no, what is your basis for that? If i ask you what makes you believe that because it happened with these other people it happened to Lyanna. If i ask you what in the text makes you believe that occured with Lyanna what would you show me?

It is far fetched because first the Wildling way is not Rheagar's way nor Lyanna's way.There's still no basis that Rhaegar found her and not Richard Longmoth or Robert Baratheon who also promised to unmasked him.

All "they" found was the shield hanging in the tree and by they i assumed those who were named.

[IceFire125]

The old gods (who aren't really gods by the way) have nothing to do with actions Rhaegar took or didn't take.They are not in a position to sanction anyone to do anything.So i don't see how your first para works.Ned wasn't describing suffering when he grabbed the crown he was describing how he felt abd i would menton something else about thorns being symbolic with offense and mockery.The most famouse thorned crown in our world was used to mock Jesus the Christ as King of the Jews.Ned is describing the effects of an offense and mockery against his sister.

I agree that there are greater forces with regard to Lyanna's disappearence than Rhaegar but those forces are very much human.As i said nothing in that whole display of him spoke of honoring her for being KOTLT we don't know if he found out,or how he did.There were others looking for the Knight as well with the intention of unmasking him so we don't know.

As to the last part because there's no proof this happened to Lyanna i can't say and this to me is always the danger of superimposing one person's life or experiancing unto another person without having any foundation for it.This to me is how echoing in this case is used improperly.The whole it happen to X so it must happen to why just doesn't work and it shouldn't because we are dealing with individual choices.If Sansa,Alys,Ygritte and Arya echoes Lyanna how far does the echo does it cease being her indivdually or a regurgitation of one or more females that several posters think.So which is it? Did she runaway like Alys, got pretty much abducted like Sansa,or rescued like Arya? 

I can't answer to Rhaegar's councel with the green man or the GOHH because i have no clue or anything to say that happened.There's literally nothing.I mean that's pulling stuff out of nowhere.I do know this is a story where what you see isn't what is a lot of times and its in the details we see the truth.

We know the old gods is what Jon believes.  We know Ghost is marked as being the "chosen", sent by the old gods.

We know the old gods may be governed via councils of Greenseers, one after the other as one dies or fade into the tree.

We know the CoTF worships them, in fact, woods witch giving the prophecy about a certain promised prince to come out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella seem to made an impact with Aegon V and Jaehaerys II and ultimately Rhaegar. 

We know these Greenseers can enter dreams, we know Bloodraven might have entered Jon's dream.  He could've as easily entered Rhaegar's dreams and giving him hints of a certain grey girl on a horse running towards him.  

Daenys the Dreams may in fact be given dreams by Greenseer(s), guiding her family to make sure they survived the Doom.  To make sure her line survives, so that TPWTP will be on schedule to be born before the Long Night.

But these are just impressed on me by GRRM in the books.  Could I be wrong, of course. 

Icefire125  sorry but no, what is your basis for that? If i ask you what makes you believe that because it happened with these other people it happened to Lyanna. If i ask you what in the text makes you believe that occured with Lyanna what would you show me?

Because GRRM is known to write a story within a story.

Simple, I could see what transpired with Jon, similarly happened to Rhaegar.

Why?? I don't know, call it a hunch or just simply being impressed by GRRM's writings.

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. We could go look for Gendel’s children, I suppose. Though they’d be more like to eat us than to take us in.

**Where did Rhaegar stand?? To give up Lyanna to his Father would mean trouble for her, maybe death? To give her up to her Family might be best, but the time might not be right, as that would lend her to the previous course of having her married to Robert, something she was running away from. To take her with him would mean to "steal" her?? So where did Rhaegar stand?? I would take the hint from GRRM that what happend with Jon, Rhaegar went through similar thoughts.

[LmL]

If I may, KingMonkey & everyone else, I'd like to contribute evidence for RLJ from my own line of research.  If anything I'm saying doesn't make sense, it's because I am summarizing much longer ideas in short form, all of which are explained on my blog / podcast. I'll try to keep it brief here.

The first concerns the Tower of Joy, and maidens in towers in general.  This is a well known literary motif in its own right, but in ASOIAF, it has specific astronomical meanings which reference the fall of the Long Night (according to my hypothesis, of course). Martin seems to be using the tops of things to symbolize heavenly objects. He does it with the tops of towers (or castles with many towers), mountains, people, trees, etc. When someone is decapitated, for example, that may be symbolizing the fall of a heavenly body from the sky. When the top of  tower is struck by lightning, or damaged, it's the same idea. The important celestial body to fall from the sky is the second moon which I believe was impacted by a comet to cause the Long Night. This Lightbringer story symbolizes this: the sun is Azor Ahai, the comet is his sword, and the moon is his wife, Nissa Nissa. The sun stabbed his moon wife with a sword, forging Lightbringer, and this was the cause of the Long Night. This can also be scene as the sun impregnating the the moon with his dragonseed - that's the comet - and then the moon gives birth to dragons - meteors - and dies in childbirth (in a bed of moon blood, no less). This ties into Schmendrick's ideas with his R+L=Lightbringer essay, which shows that Jon symbolizes Lightbringer. Lightbringer's forging can be a procreative act, as I said above, and in this sense, Lightbringer is the child of sun and moon. When the sun impregnated the moon with his dragonseed comet, the moon explodes, pouring forth a thousand thousand dragons - the moon is the mother of dragons here. What I am saying is that there is a moon maiden archetype in ASOIAF, just as there is an Azor Ahai archetype. The AA archetype is the solar king, and the Nissa Nissa archetype is the dying moon maiden who gives birth to dragons. 

It's easy to see how Lyanna and Rhaegar and the ToJ fit in here. Rhaegar, as a dragon and a blood royal, is the solar king. Lyanna, with her lunar halo-like crown of pale blue roses, is the moon maiden who is impregnated by dragonseed and dies giving birth to a dragon. Placing her in the top of a tower puts her in the celestial realm, and her rose petals blow across a blood-streaked sky like a storm. Her bed of blood is associated with childbirth and death, just as the moon died giving birth. Nissa Nissa died giving birth to Lightbringer - and flaming swords and dragons share the same symbolism. Daenerys, the moon of Drogo's life, symbolically dies in the pyre of her solar king, Drogo, while giving birth to dragons.  These are all manifestations of the same pattern, which is that of the dying moon maiden, the original mother of dragons.  Thus, RLJ makes a damn lot of sense to me, and I'm using entirely different lines of inquiry that most people. Also, KingMonkey, I'd be curious to chat about your parallel ToJ scenes in reference to the forging of Lightbringer astronomy pattern, because I am sure that they all fir together quite well, since I've already analyzed some of the scenes you mentioned.  

- - - - - -

The other idea I'd like to contribute is in reference to Jon's dream of being armored in black ice, with a burning red sword. It is my contention that Jon is showing us that the Bloodstone Emperor, a legendary figure from the Great Empire of the Dawn who supposedly caused the Long Night by killing his sister, the Amethyst Empress, and stealing her throne, followed by a reign of dark magic and necromantic abomination. Supposedly Azor Ahai arose to end the Long Night, but I think this is wrong and that Azor Ahai was really the bad guy. In the dream, Jon acts out the exact deeds of both Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor, which to me corroborates the idea that they were the same. The Bloodstone Emperor is defined by killing his sibling and usurping their kingdom - and in the dream, Jon kills Robb and declares himself the lord of Winterfell. Azor Ahai is known for murdering his love with a burning red sword - and Jon kills Ygritte with his burning red sword. Now, many people have already pegged Jon for a match to being "Azor Ahai reborn" in some sense, whatever that turns out to mean. Thus he's the right man to dream of a burning red sword. Taking the correlation further, we know that Azor Ahai covered his sword in blood to light it on fire - fire and blood, the Targaryen words - and Jon's burning red sword drinks the blood of Jon's loved ones as well, dissolving the world into a red mist, even. 

But Jon is also armored in black ice. There are several things this could mean - dragonglass, which is frozen fire? Is this a reference to his father's sword, a nearly black sword called Ice, or to Valyrian steel more generally? Aegon the Conqueror wore black armor of Valyrian steel, so perhaps black ice is the frozen version of this idea? The black ice doesn't seem to have a direct Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai correlation, so I think it applies to something else... we all know Martin can symbolize multiple concepts in the same passage, and I think this is one of those dreams.

So here's the RLJ implications. First, the links between Azor Ahai and Targaryens are everywhere and overwhelming - I've documented them in all of my essays. It is my belief that Azor Ahai is from the original race of dragonlords who predated the Valyrians, the ones who left fused stone structures at Battle Isle in Oldtown and the Five Forts in Essos, structures which date back to before the Long Night and before Valyria's rise. In other words, the valyrians have inherited the legacy of Azor Ahai, both genetic and magical. In my opinion, Azor Ahai reborn, or multiple manifestations of such, must have some dragon blood, and therefore, in my opinion, all clues about Jon being Azor Ahai reborn point to his having dragon blood.  As a caveat, I'll also add that I believe the Daynes have some trace of this pre-Valyrian dragonlord race's blood also, so if Jon were to be a Dayne, it could also fit the symbolism. I don't think there is a practical way for Jon to be a Dayne, but there it is. 

The second RLJ idea would this black ice. It's important - in fact, I think that red fire and black ice are part of Jon's personal symbolism, like the blue rose. The blue rose is seen by Dany in a chink in the Wall, and interestingly, we see the red fire and black ice in exactly the same place in ADWD:

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors . “Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned.

JON, ADWD 

 So, in one scene, Jon is armored in black ice, with a burning red sword. Here, in the cracks of the weeping wall, the meltwater catches the sun's reflection and creates the image of streaks of red fire and rivers of black ice. Now, I have a astronomy interpretation here - the streaks of red fire are the meteors of the exploded moon, and meteors and comets, like the burning red sword, are compared to dragons. They turn to rivers of black ice because the meteors land in the sea (a sea dragon) and trigger a flood, which came in the Long Night when it was dark and cold. Perhaps one struck up north and melted an icecap, who knows, but you get the general idea. But speaking of RLJ, consider the hypothesis that the red fire and black ice, like the blue rose, represent Jon's genetic legacy, his parentage. Thus, we see Targaryen red and black, but with ice added in to the mix. The black ice could represent dragonglass, which is frozen fire, giving Jon red hot fire and black frozen fire.  Jon is also kind of the image of a black dragonglass sword which lights on fire with red flame. The black ice could represent his father's valyrian steel sword, a black weapon forged in dragon fire, but which is icy cold to the touch ("cold steel") and is literally named ice. Ned's sword represents fire and ice, combined, which is what I think the red fire and black ice is saying about Jon. It could also be the image of a black sword on flame, but a Valyrian steel one, recalling the possibility that the dragonsteel of the Last Hero is Lightbringer. Jon is a sword in the darkness, as we all know, so perhaps we should interpret his dream self as a sword - one of black ice, in some form, which burns red. 

What this all may be saying is that the Last Hero needs to have fire and ice to his nature, an idea many have suggested already for various reasons. And that too points toward RLJ, and Jon as the one who's song is ice and fire.

 

[purple-eyes]

We know the old gods is what Jon believes.  We know Ghost is marked as being the "chosen", sent by the old gods.

We know the old gods may be governed via councils of Greenseers, one after the other as one dies or fade into the tree.

We know the CoTF worships them, in fact, woods witch giving the prophecy about a certain promised prince to come out of the line of Aerys and Rhaella seem to made an impact with Aegon V and Jaehaerys II and ultimately Rhaegar. 

We know these Greenseers can enter dreams, we know Bloodraven might have entered Jon's dream.  He could've as easily entered Rhaegar's dreams and giving him hints of a certain grey girl on a horse running towards him.  

Daenys the Dreams may in fact be given dreams by Greenseer(s), guiding her family to make sure they survived the Doom.  To make sure her line survives, so that TPWTP will be on schedule to be born before the Long Night.

But these are just impressed on me by GRRM in the books.  Could I be wrong, of course. 

 

I am pretty sure it is Bloodraven who warged into Rhaegar and crowned Lyanna and maybe even slept with Lyanna. 

Until one day he unwarged Rhaegar, then Rhaegar was like: what the hell did I do with this Stark woman? I had better go home as fast as I can.

Then he left TOJ like a rabbit and never came back. 

 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

 

But these are just impressed on me by GRRM in the books.  Could I be wrong, of course. 

Because GRRM is known to write a story within a story.

Simple, I could see what transpired with Jon, similarly happened to Rhaegar.

Why?? I don't know, call it a hunch or just simply being impressed by GRRM's writings.

 

If its a hunch its a hunch i can't mount an arguement against someone's hunch so we'll se how that turns out.

.

 

It's easy to see how Lyanna and Rhaegar and the ToJ fit in here. Rhaegar, as a dragon and a blood royal, is the solar king. Lyanna, with her lunar halo-like crown of pale blue roses, is the moon maiden who is impregnated by dragonseed and dies giving birth to a dragon.   .

 

But how does this proove Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son? First lets run with how you labled this we have a few problems.Rhaegar was never a king,and as far as solar kings go he didn't follow the arch and thus was never one he never achieved that.There were two solar kings during Robert's rebellion and one of them was Aerys sadly Rhaegar never had a chance.Next if its about Targs in relation to AA and that blood then prepare for shock and awe because the Targs since the first Dance had perfected mixing their blood with a fair amount people.Common and noble.

So one can see why GRRM's statement about Dragonriders makes sense " The heads need not all  be Targaryan" So AA could be the same thing he/she just need to have some of that blood in them and thanks to Targaryans speading the love so generously at a particular point in time by that reasoning Jon's father need not be Targ either just have the blood and be of a particular archetype.

[LmL]

If its a hunch its a hunch i can't mount an arguement against someone's hunch so we'll se how that turns out.

But how does this proove Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son? First lets run with how you labled this we have a few problems.Rhaegar was never a king,and as far as solar kings go he didn't follow the arch and thus was never one he never achieved that.There were two solar kings during Robert's rebellion and one of them was Aerys sadly Rhaegar never had a chance.Next if its about Targs in relation to AA and that blood then prepare for shock and awe because the Targs since the first Dance had perfected mixing their blood with a fair amount people.Common and noble.

So one can see why GRRM's statement about Dragonriders makes sense " The heads need not all  be Targaryan" So AA could be the same thing he/she just need to have some of that blood in them and thanks to Targaryans speading the love so generously at a particular point in time by that reasoning Jon's father need not be Targ either just have the blood and be of a particular archetype.

One does not need to technically be a king in the realms of men to play the role of "solar king" in the Azor Ahai celestial drama - that's too literal of an interpretation. The ToJ scene matches the forging of Lightbringer archetypal pattern perfectly (at least as I see it), down to many small details and correlations, that's the point. The mythical astronomy patterns line up with RLJ, and the ToJ specifically. 

[wolfmaid7]

One does not need to technically be a king in the realms of men to play the role of "solar king" in the Azor Ahai celestial drama - that's too literal of an interpretation. The ToJ scene matches the forging of Lightbringer archetypal pattern perfectly (at least as I see it), down to many small details and correlations, that's the point. The mythical astronomy patterns line up with RLJ, and the ToJ specifically. 

No they don't hence me saying Rhaegar doesn't even follow the arch of a solar king to be deemed a solar king he doesn't even do that right.Ahh you miss my ,the toj and who Jon's daddy is need not be related.It doesn't tell me that Rhaegar in particular  did the deed.If you are sayingme that Lightbringer's archetypal pattern is related to AA's relation to Targs and that blood then we have a problem.Symbolism is all well and fine but it must be unique and have a basis in the subject we are trying to connect.

[LmL]

No they don't hence me saying Rhaegar doesn't even follow the arch of a solar king to be deemed a solar king he doesn't even do that right.Ahh you miss my ,the toj and who Jon's daddy is need not be related.It doesn't tell me that Rhaegar in particular  did the deed.If you are sayingme that Lightbringer's archetypal pattern is related to AA's relation to Targs and that blood then we have a problem.Symbolism is all well and fine but it must be unique and have a basis in the subject we are trying to connect.

Honestly Wolfmaid, I know you don't buy my ideas anyway, or even my interpretation of how George uses symbolism and language in ASOIAF, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.  You don't buy RLJ and you don't buy or understand my ideas about Lightbringer so I wouldn't expect you to really see what I'm getting at. I'm really posting theses connections so that anyone who is curious can look into them or comment.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by solar king, but I am speaking of the specific ASOIAF solar king archetype, not one from external mythology, just as I was with the ASOIAF version of the horned lord. George's ideas are derived from multiple sources, but have their own unique identity. The solar king is part of the Azor Ahai archetype, and Rhaegar is a perfect match. Really, it's like an inverted solar King, hence all the black and darkness and shadow and whatnot, but I digress. Again, this is according to how I see things, not an assertion of absolute reality. All of the evidence to support what I'm saying here is in my first essay / podcast. 

[Sly Wren]

True, but Jon "stole" Ygritte without realizing.  From Ygritte's own mouth.

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

**Red flag! Is GRRM hinting the same thing happened with Rhaegar when the knife was at (tKotLT's) Lyanna's throat??

The same thing happened with Val, without realizing Jon stole her.

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.
“Thief,” the raven agreed.

Ygritte didn't kill Jon in his sleep, meaning, Ygritte loved Jon.  Jon truly "stole" her, the wildling way.  Is it far fetched to think that that also might have happened regarding Rhaegar stealing Lyanna? I don't think it is.

In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

Very possible--except that for now, we still have to assume facts not in evidence. And it could conceivably work for other scenarios. For now, I agree that it is worth keeping an eye out for more clues.

That said--the Bard and rose imagery is specific and keeps saying (so far) that the bard is not the lover of the rose maid. . . again, we do NOT have all of the info. But that also seems like something to keep and eye on.

2.Tone in language when a character speaks says a lot and i'm always drawn to the last conversation that Jamie had with Rhaegar. The way he referred to Robert " My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert" In a world where you suppsedly ran off with your cousin's woman you don't call him by a term of endearment especially after pulling a stunt like that.I think it speaks to his unawareness in totality at that point.

But isn't that an odd thing to say, period? "Our cousin Robert" has risen in open rebellion and is trying to overthrow "my royal sire." Really seems like it's much more likely to be sarcasm given the circumstances, whether he took Lyanna or not. 

3. Yeah i believe Ned had a hand it it,that whole Lyanna was in a room which smelled of Roses and Ned's statement that he always brings her flowers like a ritual raised a flag in my brain.

Yup. You're right--it is a ritual. Makes me wonder if her hears the "promise me, Ned" when he brings them. Like penance. 

[wolfmaid7]

Honestly Wolfmaid, I know you don't buy my ideas anyway, or even my interpretation of how George uses symbolism and language in ASOIAF, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.  You don't buy RLJ and you don't buy or understand my ideas about Lightbringer so I wouldn't expect you to really see what I'm getting at. I'm really posting theses connections so that anyone who is curious can look into them or comment.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by solar king, but I am speaking of the specific ASOIAF solar king archetype, not one from external mythology, just as I was with the ASOIAF version of the horned lord. George's ideas are derived from multiple sources, but have their own unique identity. The solar king is part of the Azor Ahai archetype, and Rhaegar is a perfect match. Really, it's like an inverted solar King, hence all the black and darkness and shadow and whatnot, but I digress. Again, this is according to how I see things, not an assertion of absolute reality. All of the evidence to support what I'm saying here is in my first essay / podcast. 

GRRM derives from real world myth even in his story they follow a pattern.I got your Baphomet reference and like i told you not all horned gods are the same archetype.Baphomet may have horns but he is of a completely different archetype and path and Jon may well even be that but that doesn't tell me who his father is.It tells me he has a thrist for arcane knowledge .

But even that's not what i'm getting at the way your theory is structured honestly atleast 4 people could fit being Jon's dad.It works for about 4 different prospects.

Am i right?

[Sly Wren]

 

The second RLJ idea would this black ice. It's important - in fact, I think that red fire and black ice are part of Jon's personal symbolism, like the blue rose. The blue rose is seen by Dany in a chink in the Wall, and interestingly, we see the red fire and black ice in exactly the same place in ADWD:

You already know my interp of the nightmare battle, so I won't bore you with it here. 

But on the scene above: Jon is noting the red light from the sun is going out. Then thinking that Mel will light her first, pray for the Lord of Light to deal with the lack of sun, the rising blackness. 

But Jon rejects that fire. "The Wall is where we stop them." Not fire--he's saying this in response to her fires. Her perpetual fires with repeated kings and dragons "dragons again," he thinks. Almost able to see them, she talks about them so often. But here, he's choosing the Wall. Not thinking the fires will help. . . 

@Pretty Pig was arguing that Jon sometimes rejects fire for cold. We'd need her to elaborate on her evidence. But this seems to be one of those moments. Same with Jon's repulsion to Craster. Yes, everyone says it's warmer in that horrible keep, but Jon sees the fire as smoky. He goes outside instead and is rewarded. Ghost gets him rabbits--a better dinner than any of his black brothers get. And when he wakes in the morning--yes, it's my favorite ice is magic moment.

Just saying: the specific contexts of the red and black imagery with the Wall you give above seem tied to the pattern of Jon's choosing the Wall. Choosing the ice to fight the Others--ice to fight ice. . . 

[wolfmaid7]

 

.But isn't that an odd thing to say, period? "Our cousin Robert" has risen in open rebellion and is trying to overthrow "my royal sire." Really seems like it's much more likely to be sarcasm given the circumstances, whether he took Lyanna or not. 

Yup. You're right--it is a ritual. Makes me wonder if her hears the "promise me, Ned" when he brings them. Like penance. 

Did he say that? I don't remember that phrase.It doesn't come across like sarcasm when the quote is read:

"Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak,"