Heresy Project X+Y=J: Rhaegar + Lyanna

[Sly Wren]

 

Ned says he brings her flowers, though I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of them were roses.

Because no one else gave Lyanna roses. At least not that we've ever seen in ASoIaF. If GRRM is playing remotely fair with his readers, then those roses are connected to Rhaegar. I just don't see any other way around it.

Agreed that we don't have anyone else giving the living Lyanna flowers of any sort. But have the texts really pinned that down to mean no one else could do so? Given that Rhaegar's also the only one known to give her any flowers--seems like extrapolating that no one else would give her roses might be a bit hard to work.

Is the Bael parallel supposed to be some gospel, from which nothing can deviate? Which rule dictates that Rhaegar's motive must have been the same as Bael's?

No, not gospel. But since the tale of the Blue Winter Rose really seems to be part of the symbolism of Lyanna and her child, looking at the whole tale--intent, ending, everything--seems like a reasonable thing to do. And since we don't know Rhaegar's intent, but we do know Bael's--an intent we see played out with other Bael figures (Mance, Bael-ish, Cersei)--seems like it should really be considered as likely.

Speaking of parallels, what about the one between Jorah and Rhaegar? Both good fighters, yet usually not tourney winners, until the very day when they suddenly became unstoppable to crown a woman of their choice. 

A fair point. Though, as J. Stargaryen pointed out to me a while back, Rhaegar was known for being good with a lance. And, again, we aren't given Rhaegar's motive. We don't know if it matched Jorah's. We only see him give the rose crown. And we are given Bael's intent--with the blue rose.

[Ygrain]

Gospel no, but the only precedent we've got and not a happy one.

And? The Bael has the same elements - singer disappearing with a Stark maiden and impregnating her with a child - but there is zero obligation for the two stories to follow exactly the same pattern.

And, no, it is not the only parallel. We have the "love is the death of duty" theme, with Duncan and Jenny or Robb and Jeyne, we have the infatuation that brought the tourney victory with Jorah and Lynesse, just to mention a couple. None of them is a full parallel, why should Bael?

[Ygrain]

 

Agreed that we don't have anyone else giving the living Lyanna flowers of any sort. But have the texts really pinned that down to mean no one else could do so? Given that Rhaegar's also the only one known to give her any flowers--seems like extrapolating that no one else would give her roses might be a bit hard to work.

No, it doesn't mean that no-one else did - but the complete lack of mention means that those potential other givers were insubstantial for the story, and the one mentioned is THE one that is significant.

 

No, not gospel. But since the tale of the Blue Winter Rose really seems to be part of the symbolism of Lyanna and her child, looking at the whole tale--intent, ending, everything--seems like a reasonable thing to do. And since we don't know Rhaegar's intent, but we do know Bael's--an intent we see played out with other Bael figures (Mance, Bael-ish, Cersei)--seems like it should really be considered as likely.

See below.

A fair point. Though, as J. Stargaryen pointed out to me a while back, Rhaegar was known for being good with a lance. 

Yes, he was good with a lance. Didn't love it, though, and did it out of duty. Didn't participate often, didn't gather a bunch of great victories (see how Dany is disappointed when Barry doesn't really have much to tell her about Rhaegar's tourneying)

 

 And, again, we aren't given Rhaegar's motive. We don't know if it matched Jorah's. We only see him give the rose crown. And we are given Bael's intent--with the blue rose.

And? Jorah gave QoLaB laurel, Rhaegar gave QoLaB laurel. Rhaegar gave blue roses, Bael... oh, wait, he didn't give the Stark maiden the blue rose, he left it on her pillow in exchange. So which one is actually a closer parallel?

- Speaking of parallels, I forgot to throw in my favourite, that of John lackland and Isabela of Angouleme, "Helen of Middle Ages".