Pre-Conquest Bastards

[Maester Mando]

Have there been Bastard surnames before Aegon's Conquest? Because it wouldn't make much much sense for somebody to be called Waters before the creation of the crownlands or for someone from the Iron Islands to be named Pyke before House Greyjoy of Pyke ruled there.

And also I don' t recall any bastard mentioned from before the Conquest.  Someone knows more? 

[Lord Varys]

Sure, there are lots of pre-Conquest bastards to be known, and we know that the Riverlands (Benedict Rivers) and the North (Brandon Snow) already had the same names as they have now. But I'd actually be surprised if there the Waters and the Pyke name already existed at this point. In fact, I'd be inclined to that the Ironborn long either had no bastard names for their bastards or simply used the name of the respective island - if so, then things might have been unified in the wake of the Greyjoys taking over after the Conquest.

[RobOsevens]

Sure, there are lots of pre-Conquest bastards to be known, and we know that the Riverlands (Benedict Rivers) and the North (Brandon Snow) already had the same names as they have now. But I'd actually be surprised if there the Waters and the Pyke name already existed at this point. In fact, I'd be inclined to that the Ironborn long either had no bastard names for their bastards or simply used the name of the respective island - if so, then things might have been unified in the wake of the Greyjoys taking over after the Conquest.

Makes sense, really depends if George has even considered it

[Lord Varys]

In very ancient times there might even have been different names down in the Reach, since the Gardenders only slowly took over the other three kingdoms. In the Hightower lands the name could have been 'Honey', on the Arbor 'Wine', and so on.

Come to think of it, the Waters name could have some tradition in the Blackwater region considering that the Darklyns were once kings in their own right, and continued to be a very powerful force up until the Conquest, and the entire region was always some sort of semi-independent borderland region between the Stormlands and the Riverlands. That fact could have been reflected by the bastard name Waters, I guess.

[Maester of Valyria]

Regardless of the surnames, bastards still held roughly the same role as they do in the main series. This is evidenced by many pieces of evidence, although the only one I'm able to bring to mind right now is:

Lord Commander Runcel Hightower attempted to leave the Watch to his bastard son some five hundred years ago.

This shows, as might be expected, that Aegon didn't introduce anything new here, and I wouldn't be suprised if, during the 'true' period of Seven Kingdoms, the names were as they are now.

[White Ravens]

I always made the assumption that regional bastard names were almost a part of the local slang language and that as regions and borders shifted over long periods of time so did bastard names. 

[Maester Mando]

So there are no Pykes and Waters from the pre Tag era known?

[purple-eyes]

Compared to this, I am more wondering if there is bastard name in free cities. 

Probably not. 

[Maester Mando]

I just checked all known bastards (actual and historical) on the wiki, and there are only a handful of pre Conquest bastards. No Pykes, no Waters. Only thing I noticed is Addam Rivers who lived during the Rule of the Storm kings over the Trident. I guess he was called Rivers and not Storm because the riverlands are definitily a natural Region of Westeros, as all of the current regions minus the crownlands,  who naturally are Part riverlands , part stormlands. This is also how the worldbook treat es the regions. Also Storm kings and ironborn rule was always Seen as foreign rule to The Trident. 

Lord Varys, I really like your explanation with much more different surnames.

 

[Maester Mando]

Compared to this, I am more wondering if there is bastard name in free cities. 

Probably not. 

I dont think so. In tthe Free Cities, money is much more important than family names or legacy.

[Lord Varys]

Ironborn culture most likely only came to consider the whole 'noble bastard thing' a problem at a very late point in its history. They had the whole sex slave thing with the salt wives going, and considered salt sons secondary sons anyway who could inherit. From there it wouldn't be far for some lordly dude to install his bastard son from an Ironborn woman he is not married to as his heir if he has neither rock sons nor salt sons or any other close male kin.

Not to mention that lusty Ironborn men wouldn't feel a strong need to acknowledge any bastards they may have fathered on other women if they already have many rock sons and a virtual army of salt sons. Not to mention that the fact that you have an army of beautiful sex slaves already would make it more unlikely that you would care seducing other women.

And then there are the female thralls, come to think of it. Surely you could just fuck them, too, even if they don't qualify as salt wives but work on your (father's) lands. While the smallfoll in Westeros actually can demand that a nobleman acknowledge a bastard he has fathered on her, I don't think a thrall would have the right to demand a similar thing from an Ironborn nobleman.

Therefore the idea that a name for noble bastard only developed late in Ironborn history makes a good deal of sense, perhaps it really was only after the Conquest and Pyke was chosen because of the Greyjoy being the rulers (one assumes that 'Iron' would have been a much better Ironborn bastard name, come to think of it).

In regards to the overall history bastard names would only have become common when the institution of marriage became overly important and after noble family names had developed (both would not necessarily have been the case in the early centuries). And even after it was clear that children born in marriage were 'better/more legitimate' it would still take quite some time until people decided to specifically mark all those bastard children with a special name. One assumes that in the old savage days many kings, lords, and chieftains made their bastards their successors simply because they liked them better, felt they were more capable/experienced than the other children, and so on.

Pretty much the whole feudal system with an heavy emphasis on arranged marriages has to have been in place for the bastard names to come up, suggesting that it may only have occurred a good deal after the recovery from the Long Night.